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[Zimmy64]

Voting should be compulsory. You vote or you get a fine like in Australia. Everyone's vote should be equal also, none of this let's give more power to the uneducated.

Anyone who is legitimately interested in compulsory voting should read Compulsory Voting: For and Against by Jason Brennan and Lisa Hill. Of interest to a lot of posters,

"[There is a] widespread belief that ”if everybody in this country voted, the Democrats would be in for the next 100 years." ... [T]his conclusion ... is accepted by almost everyone except a few empirical political scientists. Their analyses of survey data show that no objectively achieved increase in turnout – including compulsory voting – would be a boon to progressive causes or Democratic candidates. Simply put, voters' preferences differ minimally from those of all citizens; outcomes would not change if everyone voted."
(Benjamin Highton and Raymond Wolfinger, ”The Political Implications of Higher Turnout," British Journal of Political Science 31 (1) (2001): 179–223). Also Sarah Birch in here compilation study Full Participation (which reviews nearly all the literature ever written on compulsory voting comes to the same conclusion).

I also think the claim that there is a civic or moral duty to vote is highly dubious (and for what it's worth most academic political philosophers agree with me, even those who consider themselves welfare liberals or what most gaffers would be). It's not clear that we have a duty to vote to others. At best we have a duty to vote well (whatever that means) but the information required to vote well is difficult to attain and not everyone can be sociologists, political scientists, philosophers, etc lest we abandon the division of labor in society. Most ill-informed voters are what economists call rationally irrationally.

Personally I'm against compulsory voting on deontological grounds. As established in West Virginia v Barnette people have the right to not speak. Considering voting is a speech act people have the right not to vote. Note that I claim the right to not vote as an extension of the right to not speak (the corollary to the right to speak). I don't claim there is an independent right not to vote (there may or may not be but that requires extensive work in political philosophy).

That being said if governments want to employ non-coercive means of raising voter turnout I'm ambivalent.

For what it's worth I'm a classical liberal/libertarian political amateur political philosopher going to grad school in the near future to be a professional classical liberal/libertarian political philosopher(Not that that should effect how you assess my arguments). I'm currently doing research on deontological objections to compulsory voting. I also didn't mean to "call you out" your concerns seemed to be a prevailing theme in this thread.

 

[JettDash]

That's fine. It doesn't matter how many people shit on my opinion. I still respect the idea that someone would want to vote Democrat due to the fear of the GOP being absurdly cruel and greedy. I just don't believe that anything will change if we give into that fear. I think the Democratic leadership is using that fear to do whatever they want. Apparently what they want is the cold comfort of status quo.



And that's why we are likely fucked either way. How long do you think Democrats are going to be able to sell people on "Like it is now but a bit better"? Hillary Clinton ran on that message and she lost to a racist orange potato. If the Democrats want to start sweeping elections they need to dump the baggage and become fighters for the future. For the love of god if they would just come out and give us a vision for the future I'd be a little bit happier.

But they won't. And people are going to make the decision to not go out and vote because it doesn't seem like it will change anything. Even if you get Trump out of office in 2020 they are going to have a hard time keeping power due to not having a message.

The thing that will change if people don't vote for Democrats is that Republicans will win and fuck over as many people as they can. Simply a fact.

Oh, and I did't know that tens of millions of people gaining healthcare is a continuation of the status quo. You know the last time a Democrat was president. The same thing that Republicans are trying to reverse.

 

[RedZaraki]

If the GOP keeps control of Congress in 2018, Trump will never be impeached.


Think about that.

 

[RinsFury]

Biggest piece of shit this country has ever seen elected to head office, racist assholes taking over every level of government below him and across the nation, and motherfuckers still aren't taking this seriously enough to get out and vote? The future is fucked unless attitudes change soon. We need to be on this all the time, not just big election years.

 

[BADMAN]

But I'm sure the tens of millions of people that will lose their healthcare if Republicans succeed will be comforted by dumbasses on the left who think that not voting is a good strategy.

You blame the dumbasses, I blame the Democrats, and we are both right. Angry progressives that didn't vote contributed to Hillary losing but to them that was their only choice. I'm still somewhat disgusted from casting my vote for a candidate that represents to me everything I dislike about the current Democratic party and I can't fault anyone who refused to go through with it. Especially since many states force you to stand in line the day of the election to vote.

 

[Zoe]

Political campaigns are fairly sophisticated these days. If you do not vote your are invisible to politicians. It's simply much easier to convince someone who votes to vote for you then it is to convince someone who doesn't vote to vote for you.

The mentality that your vote is like some virginity that you're saving for the magical candidate that agrees with you 100% might make some rational sense to an individual, but is probably related to the failure of far-left politics to obtain any meaningful accomplishments.

edit: I can say from experience in local elections (e.g., city council and mayoral) millennials were basically useless. It was all older demographics voting and volunteering. Not promising.

There really needs to be a stronger push towards voting in local elections. Those are things that affect you the most, but the rates are abysmal.

If you can convince people to vote outside of November on even years, the rest will follow.

 

[JettDash]

If the GOP keeps control of Congress in 2018, Trump will never be impeached.


Think about that.

But you see, we should let the Republicans win to teach Democrats a lesson. Perhaps let Trump win again in 2020. Who cares how many people get hurt. What matters is forcing Democrats to be sufficiently ideologically pure.

 

[monchi-kun]

The obvious solution is re-engineering a voting machine into a fidget spinner. Spin left to vote Democrat, spin right to vote republican.

 

[pretty done]

I won't vote because I have to work on election day

...but they give us Black Friday off (paid) lol

 

[YaBish]

Fuck my generation. Feels like nobody gives a shit about anything anymore and it's depressing as all hell.

I try to keep my friends informed, and they just brush it off. Or in the case of my girlfriend, refuse to vote unless the candidate is somebody that gets them excited. I just don't understand their positions. They care about people, but when it's in the abstract, they just don't bother.

 

[Evening Musuko]

Would be kind of hard to bitch on social media when the internet as you know it could very well end if the GOP has their way. You'd think that would be enough to get them to vote, but I guess it's going to have to get to that point to get them to.

 

[Zoe]

I won't vote because I have to work on election day

...but they give us Black Friday off (paid) lol

Every state has some kind of law that guarantees time off to vote.

 

[SeanTSC]

You blame the dumbasses, I blame the Democrats, and we are both right. Angry progressives that didn't vote contributed to Hillary losing but to them that was their only choice. I'm still somewhat disgusted from casting my vote for a candidate that represents to me everything I dislike about the current Democratic party and I can't fault anyone who refused to go through with it. Especially since many states force you to stand in line the day of the election to vote.

Yeah, I think that's bullshit. Their ideals aren't more important than all the people getting fucked over. I think you feel more disgusted at your own vote than the fact that tens of thousands of Americans are facing death sentences if the Republican party has its way with Healthcare. Sorry, no, that's not the ONLY choice. It never was. This purity test crap is bullshit that will cost lives. But hey, they're poor, fuck em, right?

 

[pigeon]

Who says this won't affect me? Multiple posters have made the assertion that this election will affect the entire world. When trump won I was fucking furious as well, especially seeing as I couldn't actually do anything about it.

You could actually have volunteered for Hillary so thanks for not trying hard enough and contributing to Trump's win

 

[eBay Huckster]

Especially since many states force you to stand in line the day of the election to vote.

what in the name of fuck is this shit, there's like one state that was within 20% last year where this is even remotely close to being the case and that was pennsylvania (e: actually, even they had absentee voting!)

the National Conference of State Legislatures literally has an entire page devoted to this

ohio with its GOP governor and GOP supermajority legislature literally had early voting for a full fucking month before the election, for all the good that did

 

[Zimmy64]

If the GOP keeps control of Congress in 2018, Trump will never be impeached.


Think about that.

I mean it's pretty easy. Trump will never be impeached period. Even if we had 2008 levels of Democratic control in Congress it wouldn't mathematically be enough. Impeaching a President is really hard. That being said I give Trump a 50/50% chance of being reelected. I'd like to tell you to vote (and by all means do if you want to it's your right) but you have a better chance of winning the Powerball multiple times in a row then you do of influencing an election (If someone wants the reference I can get it for them). The truth is that there are much better ways to contribute to society than voting (both political and nonpolitical). Even if you do have a duty to society (which I'm skeptical of) you can fulfill that duty in multiple ways that don't involve voting.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I always wonder if a place like Neogaf is representation why people less and less care to involve themselves in politics.

Just the condescension, the pompous dismissal of concerns or any bit of non-templated expression- the entire concept has become toxic as hell

Or if this place is just an anecdotal bubble.

Whelp v

Yea I'm inclined to agree. There was a bright shiny moment when some were really introspective about why the dems lost the election. And there was a good conversation going then it got drowned out by the type of sentiments you just mentioned. Which kinda sucks.

 

[Autodidact]

Fuck my generation. Feels like nobody gives a shit about anything anymore and it's depressing as all hell.

I try to keep my friends informed, and they just brush it off. Or in the case of my girlfriend, refuse to vote unless the candidate is somebody that gets them excited. I just don't understand their positions. They care about people, but when it's in the abstract, they just don't bother.

A combination of factors:

Young people think adults suck and always have.
A generation raised on #bothsides unsurprisingly has some stupid ideas about politics.
Instant gratification has led them to perceive anything slow and procedural as boring.
Celebritization (my own coinage) of politics has had a greater effect on younger voters, who need someone #exciting and #inspirational. Older people have not fallen victim to this phenomenon.
Our meager civics education has left them ignorant of the political process and functions of government. Many people view the president as a monarch who can issue decrees; hence, they vote in presidential years but not in midterm ones.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I won't vote because I have to work on election day

...but they give us Black Friday off (paid) lol

What state do you live in? I guarantee they at least offer early voting, which extends to the weekends on 8-12 hour shifts.

 

[BADMAN]

And this based on what?

If you don't see it I doubt I'll be able to convince you. If you want an example look at their stance on healthcare. The Democratic leaders are taking a hard stance against Single Payer. This is likely due to being in bed with the Healthcare industry. Or for something more contemporary, look at that Anti-Boycott bill that they are trying to pass. Chuck fucking Schumer is cosponsoring it. How does this help American Citizens?

The thing that will change if people don't vote for Democrats is that Republicans will will and fuck over as many people as they can. Simply a fact.

Oh, and I did't know that tens of millions of people gaining healthcare is a continuation of the status quo. You know the last time a Democrat was president. The same thing that Republicans are trying to reverse.

You mean that massive blowjob we gave to insurance companies? I kid I kid. ACA was fine. Only problem is that Democrats decided that it was the fucking gold standard for healthcare for some reason and forgot about Single payer but you know, at least we got something, right? I'm sure if they put enough spit shine on it they will eventually bring prices down.

 

[JettDash]

All I know is that literally every single eligible voter that doesn't vote Democrat next year has zero room whatsoever to complain about anything the Trump and the Republicans do.

 

[jack_package_200]

Does upvoting on r/Politics count as a vote?

Will sharing/spamming dank bird memes on facebook count as a vote?

 

[GoldenEye 007]

You mean that massive blowjob we gave to insurance companies? I kid I kid. ACA was fine. Only problem is that Democrats decided that it was the fucking gold standard for healthcare for some reason and forgot about Single payer but you know, at least we got something, right? I'm sure if they put enough spit shine on it they will eventually bring prices down.

Why lie? This is false. Plenty of Democrats acknowledge more needs to be done. They openly say this. Do you refuse to acknowledge it?

 

[soul creator]

Me: I'm rational, pragmatic, willing to accept new evidence as it comes up.

Also me: I don't understand why every voter isn't perfectly rational, maybe if I just scold them even harder this time, those idiots will finally vote the way I want them to.

 

[eBay Huckster]

If you want an example look at their stance on healthcare. The Democratic leaders are taking a hard stance against Single Payer. This is likely due to being in bed with the Healthcare industry.

1) they haven't "taken a hard stance against single-payer", they simply aren't calling for it at the moment. half the caucus supports Conyers' Medicare for All bill, which does exactly what Autodidact mentions in the next post
2) so is Bernie in bed with the health care industry now that he's calling for Medicare buy-in and a national public option, which is actually where the Senate/House leadership stands?

 

[Autodidact]

If you don't see it I doubt I'll be able to convince you. If you want an example look at their stance on healthcare. The Democratic leaders are taking a hard stance against Single Payer. This is likely due to being in bed with the Healthcare industry. Or for something more contemporary, look at that Anti-Boycott bill that they are trying to pass. Chuck fucking Schumer is cosponsoring it. How does this help American Citizens?

The Israel bill is nothing but political theater. Lots of stupid bills never even make it to committee.

The Democrats haven't taken a "hard stance" against single-payer; in fact, many support it. However, a greater number realize that an abrupt shift to a completely single-payer system would decimate one-sixth of our economy and precipitate a recession. They advocate for a public option that will over time become a single-payer system as insurers withdraw from the exchanges and marketplaces. You'll still be able to buy health insurance from the government - a core tenet of single-payer - but we won't nuke our economy and an entire industry that employs millions of people.

But you'll tell me again how Democrats are corporate shills in bed with the health care industry.

 

[theWB27]

That's fine. It doesn't matter how many people shit on my opinion. I still respect the idea that someone would want to vote Democrat due to the fear of the GOP being absurdly cruel and greedy. I just don't believe that anything will change if we give into that fear. I think the Democratic leadership is using that fear to do whatever they want. Apparently what they want is the cold comfort of status quo.



And that's why we are likely fucked either way. How long do you think Democrats are going to be able to sell people on "Like it is now but a bit better"? Hillary Clinton ran on that message and she lost to a racist orange potato. If the Democrats want to start sweeping elections they need to dump the baggage and become fighters for the future. For the love of god if they would just come out and give us a vision for the future I'd be a little bit happier.

But they won't. And people are going to make the decision to not go out and vote because it doesn't seem like it will change anything. Even if you get Trump out of office in 2020 they are going to have a hard time keeping power due to not having a message.

The reason nothing will change is because they will not have built a foundation to get anything done. You cannot expect change when you sit and let the odds continuously stack against you.

Do people really not see how illogical that is?

This is the the analogy i have. The GOP use the patriots strategy. Plug and play. Yea... Losing key players doesn't hurt them as much because they have someone in the wings to fill the cog. He may not get you a 100 catches during the season.... but he'll get you four in the supebowl. Key first down here... key block there. Or... someone who'll vote party line regardless.

But the left are the browns. Looking for a coach that can take the team who just had the first pick and dismantle the pats in the supebowl only to go 1 and 15 during the season. Fire the coach and tell everyone they just didn't perform like you expected. Ignoring the fact the foundation sucks because you refuse to grow it with players who do the little things until you find someone to lead.

 

[streetsahead123]

So this is just looking at the number of millenials projected to vote in 2018? Just the raw number, not a percentage of the total electorate? Cause yeah, it's a midterm election. Less millenials will vote in 2018 and also less baby boomers and less gen x-ers and less bald asian men and less every demographic you can think of.

It's like saying "New study projects drop in millennial church attendance week after easter"

 

[JettDash]

You mean that massive blowjob we gave to insurance companies? I kid I kid. ACA was fine. Only problem is that Democrats decided that it was the fucking gold standard for healthcare for some reason and forgot about Single payer but you know, at least we got something, right? I'm sure if they put enough spit shine on it they will eventually bring prices down.

Yes the ACA was better than demanding single payer and then getting absolutely nothing.

But it's not perfect so may as well let Republicans win and take it away, killing tens of thousands of people a year. Great plan!

 

[eBay Huckster]

and yeah, i'm not sure how the fuck people expect the democrats to field candidates who can actually win elections and implement good progressive policy when they don't even turn out for the good ones.

 

[Zimmy64]

A combination of factors:

Young people think adults suck and always have.
A generation raised on #bothsides unsurprisingly has some stupid ideas about politics.
Instant gratification has led them to perceive anything slow and procedural as boring.
Celebritization (my own coinage) of politics has had a greater effect on younger voters, who need someone #exciting and #inspirational. Older people have not fallen victim to this phenomenon.
Our meager civics education has left them ignorant of the political process and functions of government. Many people view the president as a monarch who can issue decrees; hence, they vote in presidential years but not in midterm ones.

-Yes
-Maybe, not gonna touch that but the appeal to moderation fallacy is false I'll give you that
-Yes
-Yes
-You have no idea how bad it is. Jason Brennan has some really great research on just how dumb voters are.

"In the 1992 American National Election Study, voters were asked to identify which party, the Democrats or the Republicans, was more conservative on average. Only 12 percent of people in the lowest knowledge quartile could do so. They were also asked to identify the relative ideological position of the two major party candidates (sitting president) George Bush or Bill Clinton. Only 17.9 percent of people in the lowest knowledge quartile could do so. Only 17.1 percent of them could identify which candidate, Clinton or Bush, was more pro-choice. Only 9.7 percent of them could identify which candidate, Clinton or Bush, wanted to expand government services or the welfare state more.11 (Similar results hold for other election years.) The bottom 25 percent are not just ignorant. They know less than nothing. (If they became ignorant, this would actually be an improvement.) The American National Election Survey gives them a multiple-choice test, and they do much worse than chance. They make systematic mistakes on these basic questions. A random-answer generator would do better than the bottom quartile of voters. Monkeys pressing buttons would do better" (Brennan, Jason. Compulsory Voting: For and Against (p. 93). Cambridge University Press).

 

[ERotIC]

Anyone who is legitimately interested in compulsory voting should read Compulsory Voting: For and Against by Jason Brennan and Lisa Hill. Of interest to a lot of posters,

"[There is a] widespread belief that “if everybody in this country voted, the Democrats would be in for the next 100 years.” ... [T]his conclusion ... is accepted by almost everyone except a few empirical political scientists. Their analyses of survey data show that no objectively achieved increase in turnout – including compulsory voting – would be a boon to progressive causes or Democratic candidates. Simply put, voters’ preferences differ minimally from those of all citizens; outcomes would not change if everyone voted."
(Benjamin Highton and Raymond Wolfinger, “The Political Implications of Higher Turnout,” British Journal of Political Science 31 (1) (2001): 179–223). Also Sarah Birch in here compilation study Full Participation (which reviews nearly all the literature ever written on compulsory voting comes to the same conclusion).

I also think the claim that there is a civic or moral duty to vote is highly dubious (and for what it's worth most academic political philosophers agree with me, even those who consider themselves welfare liberals or what most gaffers would be). It's not clear that we have a duty to vote to others. At best we have a duty to vote well (whatever that means) but the information required to vote well is difficult to attain and not everyone can be sociologists, political scientists, philosophers, etc lest we abandon the division of labor in society. Most ill-informed voters are what economists call rationally irrationally.

Personally I'm against compulsory voting on deontological grounds. As established in West Virginia v Barnette people have the right to not speak. Considering voting is a speech act people have the right not to vote. Note that I claim the right to not vote as an extension of the right to not speak (the corollary to the right to speak). I don't claim there is an independent right not to vote (there may or may not be but that requires extensive work in political philosophy).

That being said if governments want to employ non-coercive means of raising voter turnout I'm ambivalent.

For what it's worth I'm a classical liberal/libertarian political amateur political philosopher going to grad school in the near future to be a professional classical liberal/libertarian political philosopher(Not that that should effect how you assess my arguments). I'm currently doing research on deontological objections to compulsory voting. I also didn't mean to "call you out" your concerns seemed to be a prevailing theme in this thread.

Hey, you leave your academic studies out of this and get back to knee-jerk reacting like the rest of us.

 

[BADMAN]

Yeah, I think that's bullshit. Their ideals aren't more important than all the people getting fucked over. I think you feel more disgusted at your own vote than the fact that tens of thousands of Americans are facing death sentences if the Republican party has its way with Healthcare. Sorry, no, that's not the ONLY choice. It never was. This purity test crap is bullshit that will cost lives. But hey, they're poor, fuck em, right?

I resent the idea that I don't care about the people who would get fucked over by the GOP. I want a future for those people and for all American citizens where they won't go into massive amounts of debt EVEN WITH INSURANCE when they get sick or injured. The neoliberal shitheel YAAAS QUEEEN that I voted for wouldn't have fought for that future. Sure she campaigned on making the for profit Healthcare Industry more affordable, but they're still for profit. If you want to say that the blood is on the hands of everyone who demands something better then go ahead. I disagree with you though.

 

[Autodidact]

I resent the idea that I don't care about the people who would get fucked over by the GOP. I want a future for those people and for all American citizens where they won't go into massive amounts of debt EVEN WITH INSURANCE when they get sick or injured. The neoliberal shitheel YAAAS QUEEEN that I voted for wouldn't have fought for that future. Sure she campaigned on making the for profit Healthcare Industry more affordable, but they're still for profit. If you want to say that the blood is on the hands of everyone who demands something better then go ahead. I disagree with you though.

Ignorance and subtle homophobia in one paragraph. You accomplish a lot with so few words.

 

[Dirca]

 

[eBay Huckster]

snip

just gonna quote this post to say my local library system doesn't have Compulsory Voting, but it does have The Ethics of Voting, so i'm gonna go ahead and place a hold on that

 

[WiiredShawn]

Part of the issue is that our method of voting is archaic. There should be numerous ways and opportunities to vote. Voting day should be a federal paid holiday. People should have mail-in ballots and in-person voting. There should be transportation options set up specifically to take people to voting locations. People should be able to vote for up to two weeks prior to election day itself. Even if we can't make voting as simple as filling out a digital app via our phones due to security risks, we can certainly make the process easier for more people.

So it's not entirely Millenials' fault, even if a lot of them are stupid about voting.

 

[Autodidact]

Part of the issue is that our method of voting is archaic. There should be numerous ways and opportunities to vote. Voting day should be a federal paid holiday. People should have mail-in ballots and in-person voting. There should be transportation options set up specifically to take people to voting locations. People should be able to vote for up to two weeks prior to election day itself. Even if we can't make voting as simple as filling out a digital app via our phones due to security risks, we can certainly make the process easier for more people.

So it's not entirely Millenials' fault, even if a lot of them are stupid about voting.

Now this looks like a sensible solution that would benefit all groups, not just young people.

 

[BADMAN]

Why lie? This is false. Plenty of Democrats acknowledge more needs to be done. They openly say this. Do you refuse to acknowledge it?

Sorry I should have finished out my thought. This always happens when I jump into a political thread. I get distracted. They say they want to make it better but they refuse to admit that the best option is socialized health care. I would be at least somewhat satisfied if they could add that to the major part of their agenda and then focused on doing what they could with ACA while the power structure is what it is. I'm just worried that we could have a super mega majority with house, senate, and president, and fuck it Supreme court too, and we still wouldn't get socialized medicine.

 

[jack_package_200]

Oh look, its our resident both sides are the same third party who thinks hes so cool for being above the struggles of actual people.

 

[BADMAN]

Ignorance and subtle homophobia in one paragraph. You accomplish a lot with so few words.

I'm gay, so no not really. I'm poking fun at how enamored people got with Hillary. Sorry if that was offensive.

 

[Autodidact]

Sorry I should have finished out my thought. This always happens when I jump into a political thread. I get distracted. They say they want to make it better but they refuse to admit that the best option is socialized health care. I would be at least somewhat satisfied if they could add that to the major part of their agenda and then focused on doing what they could with ACA while the power structure is what it is. I'm just worried that we could have a super mega majority with house, senate, and president, and fuck it Supreme court too, and we still wouldn't get socialized medicine.

What do you think the public option is?

 

[Other]

Every state has some kind of law that guarantees time off to vote.

And trying to enforce it on your boss could end up a good way of losing your job.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Part of the issue is that our method of voting is archaic. There should be numerous ways and opportunities to vote. Voting day should be a federal paid holiday. People should have mail-in ballots and in-person voting. There should be transportation options set up specifically to take people to voting locations. People should be able to vote for up to two weeks prior to election day itself. Even if we can't make voting as simple as filling out a digital app via our phones due to security risks, we can certainly make the process easier for more people.

So it's not entirely Millenials' fault, even if a lot of them are stupid about voting.

This is a thing, though. Early voting is relatively common. Yet here we still are.

Given the realities of what happened in 2016, there is zero shot at a fully digital election system. That idea is going to have to die for the near future.

 

[theWB27]

I resent the idea that I don't care about the people who would get fucked over by the GOP. I want a future for those people and for all American citizens where they won't go into massive amounts of debt EVEN WITH INSURANCE when they get sick or injured. The neoliberal shitheel YAAAS QUEEEN that I voted for wouldn't have fought for that future. Sure she campaigned on making the for profit Healthcare Industry more affordable, but they're still for profit. If you want to say that the blood is on the hands of everyone who demands something better then go ahead. I disagree with you though.

You will never get what you want if you keep refusing to have a starting point.

 

[Zimmy64]

just gonna quote this post to say my local library system doesn't have Compulsory Voting, but it does have The Ethics of Voting, so i'm gonna go ahead and place a hold on that

I have Ethics of Voting too but I haven't got to it yet. I'll warn you that Brennan is a pretty big Libertarian. He is a Bleeding-Heart Libertarian (and blogs at BHL too). If you don't know what that means I can explain. He also is an opponent of Democracy (one of his other books is "Against Democracy"). His basic argument is that people's right to a competent government trumps their right to political participation. I'll also mention that he's an excellent writer who is very clear (a virtue philosophers tend to forget) and super smart (He went to the University of Arizona for Grad School the #1 school for Political Philosophy in the world).

Full Disclosure: Jason is a friend of my mentor Dr. Shane Courtland who runs the journal Civil American. I've met Jason and he's a great guy.

 

[BADMAN]

The Israel bill is nothing but political theater. Lots of stupid bills never even make it to committee.

The Democrats haven't taken a "hard stance" against single-payer; in fact, many support it. However, a greater number realize that an abrupt shift to a completely single-payer system would decimate one-sixth of our economy and precipitate a recession. They advocate for a public option that will over time become a single-payer system as insurers withdraw from the exchanges and marketplaces. You'll still be able to buy health insurance from the government - a core tenet of single-payer - but we won't nuke our economy and an entire industry that employs millions of people.

But you'll tell me again how Democrats are corporate shills in bed with the health care industry.

Please point me to a high ranking Democrat has talked about the shift to public option into single payer. I'm also interested in why they haven't come out swinging with this during the GOP's massive repeal failure.

 

[Zimmy64]

Hey, you leave your academic studies out of this and get back to knee-jerk reacting like the rest of us.

I honestly cannot tell if your being sarcastic. I'm leanings towards yes but is ambiguous.

 

[eBay Huckster]

I have Ethics of Voting too but I haven't got to it yet. I'll warn you that Brennan is a pretty big Libertarian. He is a Bleeding-Heart Libertarian (and blogs at BHL too). If you don't know what that means I can explain. He also is an opponent of Democracy (one of his other books is "Against Democracy"). His basic argument is that people's right to a competent government trumps their right to political participation. I'll also mention that he's an excellent writer who is very clear (a virtue philosophers tend to forget) and super smart (He went to the University of Arizona for Grad School the #1 school for Political Philosophy in the world).

Full Disclosure: Jason is a friend of my mentor Dr. Shane Courtland who runs the journal Civil American. I've met Jason and he's a great guy.

on this note, i've also placed a hold on Democracy for Realists by Princeton's Christopher Achen and Larry Bartels, which seems to have similar arguments (but stops short of arguing against democracy, instead arguing for a "realist theory" of democracy)

trying to go into these without preconceptions, because that way I might actually learn something

 

[excelsiorlef]

You blame the dumbasses, I blame the Democrats, and we are both right. Angry progressives that didn't vote contributed to Hillary losing but to them that was their only choice. I'm still somewhat disgusted from casting my vote for a candidate that represents to me everything I dislike about the current Democratic party and I can't fault anyone who refused to go through with it. Especially since many states force you to stand in line the day of the election to vote.

Oh no you had to stand in line to vote against white nationalism....

Like of all times to really be pulling this fuck the Democrats shit...