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[Setsuna]

I mean when you're spending $1.58t on a jet that has yet to see real world use, but demand to slash the education budget because "fiscal conservative". I think something is wrong. I'm not saying don't spend money on your jets, guns, tanks and other ways to kill somebody, but at the same time...what about the things that directly affect the people?

Again with the f35? Lets make a comparison shall we.

The f35 is life time $1.5 trillion from 2000 to 2065

If the United States continues spending what it budgets towards education today over the next 65 years. We would spend over 4.4 trillion and that's not even including inflation, or any kind of increase in budget.

lets not forget that the budget was 2 billion 65 years ago and is closing in on 70 billion now

 

[Cagey]

Sounds cool, but can someone explain to me why we need this? I'm not knocking its existence, I'm just legitimately ignorant as to why we need something this advanced and expensive? Are submarines still a big part of our vital military operations? Just curious.

Because of nine dashes crudely drawn on a map.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dotted_line
http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2014/02/06-us-china-nine-dash-line-bader

 

[Jeevesmeister]

Reminds me of a revolver.

This gives me an idea... what if, you say... put the ability to fire a nuclear missile, on some sort of... bipedal machine... hrmm...

 

[hipbabboom]

As long as she isn't forced to fight her sisters then I'm okay about this.

 

[Hari Seldon]

This is like an extreme bargain compared to the F-35 holy hell.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Pretty cool stuff. For those commenting on wasteful military spending, it's really not. A lot of the money gets circled back into the civilian sector through contracts. The DoD is the largest employer in the world. We also see tech transferred over to the civilian world. See GPS, robotics work, and the Internet. The research and technology isn't in a cage from which it cannot escape military usage.

 

[Piggus]

People who think a big war won't ever happen again are extremely naive. There are people alive today who experienced the biggest, deadliest conflict in human history. Not long after that it almost happened again, but on a much bigger (nuclear) scale. Let that sink in. If trade were so much more important than war for a country like Russia, why are they invading Ukraine and garnering trade sanctions? How about North Korea? Iran? Iran recently had a president who denied the Holocaust. There are a lot of world leaders who Im sure would love a big war to mark their legacy.

If another world war were to happen (and history shows that it's likely to happen at some point) the US will be prepared for it, unlike at the beginning of WWII where we had pretty much isolated ourselves. Will your country be ready for a major conflict, or will you need to rely on us for help? I'm usually not very cynical, but a superpower cannot just assume nothing like WWII will ever happen again.

 

[Mengy]

This is like an extreme bargain compared to the F-35 holy hell.

The F-35 should never have happened. The Swiss Army Knife fighter was a bad idea from the start and it still is. Would have been much cheaper to simply update the existing great designs back then.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Cool, we will be prepared to fight against our current navy since there isn't any other navy that poses much of a concern.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Cool, we will be prepared to fight against our current navy since there isn't any other navy that poses much of a concern.

Subs can attack things other than ships.

 

[speculawyer]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/04/politics/new-navy-sub-uss-john-warner/

.

What is that thing in front of it?

 

[SwiftDeath]

Nevermind

 

[Grexeno]

A 22-year old is in charge of the US Navy's newest $2 billion nuclear-powered sub.

What have I done with my life?

22-year veteran, not 22-year old.

 

[dalin80]

Would have been much cheaper to simply update the existing great designs back then.

Can't keep upgrading old designs forever, the f-18 design dates back to the 70's and already has had a lot of work to keep it up to date but there reaches a point where you think 'we cant upgrade this design to see 80 years of service'.

Subs can attack things other than ships.

The Falklands war was the last time a sub fired at a ship in anger if memory serves, they are mostly used for surveillance, intelligence gathering and covert ops now.

 

[Epix]

What is that thing in front of it?

Looks like a dolphin.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Subs can attack things other than ships.

Not sure what your point is. I never said they couldn't.

 

[SwiftDeath]

22-year veteran, not 22-year old.

That makes soooooooooo much more sense lol

 

[commedieu]

The F-35 should never have happened. The Swiss Army Knife fighter was a bad idea from the start and it still is. Would have been much cheaper to simply update the existing great designs back then.

Wasn't it forced to be where it is, due to budgeting..? Like it was Forced to be a swis army knife fighter -- but I don't think that was the inception. It was supposed to just support the f22 iirc. Either way, I hope to GOD the money spent on the disastrous design/flight/weaponsystems/everything on the F35 was spent on black projects or something. God, hopefully, at least.. then We'd have something cool to look at, as all our money is burned in front of us to fight a very, very, short future war.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/strategic-command-focused-on-hypersonic-missile-threat/

With hypersonic weapons being developed, not much point in flying a plane when all of our military bases have been crippled...., someone is probably already working on hacking satellites... or anti-satellite ---satellites.

Its going to be interesting to see this WW3 that we've spent all this money on. Can't wait.

 

[Tallshortman]

Sure, but that also means that procuring weapons systems with this scenario in mind is a waste of time and money because it's a scenario that's so unlikely, that it's just taking money away from programs that can be used to deal with real threats to US national security.

The Chinese are procuring missiles and naval forces for that exact scenario, whether you think it will happen or not is irrelevant if china is actively preparing for the possibility of such a scenario.

 

[blackjaw]

Sounds cool, but can someone explain to me why we need this? I'm not knocking its existence, I'm just legitimately ignorant as to why we need something this advanced and expensive? Are submarines still a big part of our vital military operations? Just curious.

Strategically its easier to fight sub vs sub.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Not sure what your point is. I never said they couldn't.

Then I'm not sure what the point of your original post was. There doesn't need to be a comparable navy to the USN for these subs to be useful.

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

Very cool! The CICs of these ships is like something outta Star Trek. Just row on row of LCD flatpanels.

 

[Maledict]

I have to say I prefer the names of the British subs.

Astute Class - Astute, Artful, Ambush, Agamemnon
Vanguard Class - Vangard, Vengence, Victorious, Vigilant
Trafalgar Class - Talent, Tireless, Torbay, Trenchant, Triumph

We used to have the HMS Lucifer....

 

[Mengy]

Can't keep upgrading old designs forever, the f-18 design dates back to the 70's and already has had a lot of work to keep it up to date but there reaches a point where you think 'we cant upgrade this design to see 80 years of service'.

Sure you could, using iterative designs over time utilizing modern materials, components, and design tools. I'm not saying keep the F16 exactly like it was first designed decades ago but build upon that design changing and tweaking to make modern F16 fighters. It would have been a much more cost (and time) effective approach than the F35 was.

Wasn't it forced to be where it is, due to budgeting..? Like it was Forced to be a swis army knife fighter -- but I don't think that was the inception.

No, that was the inception. One design that could accommodate air superiority roles of all branches of the service with minimal design differences utilizing something like a 75% shared design concept. It was a tall order from the get go, experts advised against the approach, but lobbyist pressure made it happen.


Back on topic though, this thread is making me want to break out my C64 and play some Red Storm Rising tonight, still one of my favorite submarine games of all time.

 

[speculawyer]

Looks like a dolphin.

Yeah, that's what I thought. You're right . . . it is a dolphin having fun riding the pressure wave. Cool.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

AAC AAC AAC

 

[Enron]

This sub is built for an era that doesn't exist anymore. As crazy as Putin seems, he's not going to war with the US and the West because everyone understands the value of trade. There is more to be gained from trade than there is from war. The same can be said for China. Our economies are so intertwined, that it would be insane to start a war.



I do agree that compared to a program like the F-35, this is a better investment.

This is a gamble no nation can afford take.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Murica:The Military Industrial Complex.

 

[Sephzilla]

Ships don't have cool names anymore

 

[moist]

This is probably as good a place as any to whore out the book Blind Mans Bluff. It's a pretty good rundown of the U.S. submarine spying operation conducted during the cold war and gives you some insight into what all the extra space in the aforementioned USS Jimmy Carter is used for. The cable tapping operations they were running were truly bordering on insanity.

 

[UnluckyKate]

I have to say I prefer the names of the British subs.

Astute Class - Astute, Artful, Ambush, Agamemnon
Vanguard Class - Vangard, Vengence, Victorious, Vigilant
Trafalgar Class - Talent, Tireless, Torbay, Trenchant, Triumph

That is very dope indeed

 

[Nivash]

People arguing that economics will prevent war are delusional. Russia just annexed part of one of their largest trading partners (yes they traded significantly more with Ukraine than they do with the US) and were hit by heavy sanctions in return. Their response has been to increase their military and behave evenmore aggressively. Wars are not fought for quarterly budget reasons, they're fought for long term strategy or ideology. There may yet come a day when China needs a war and Taiwan could face a similar fate.

Not to mention that nuclear subs are designed to last half a century. By the time the new block III of the Virginia class reaches its end of service there could be enemies to face that don't even exist yet. The US attack submarine force is old: the Los Angeles class is well past retirement age by now and the Seawolf class all but died along with the Cold War with only 3 built. Like it or not, the John Warner and its brethren are needed.

 

[Calamari41]

The existence and one-sided ownership of weapons like this are major reasons why the kind of war in which they would be needed is unlikely to happen.

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

People arguing that economics will prevent war are delusional. Russia just annexed part of one of their largest trading partners (yes they traded significantly more with Ukraine than they do with the US) and were hit by heavy sanctions in return. Their response has been to increase their military and behave evenmore aggressively. Wars are not fought for quarterly budget reasons, they're fought for long term strategy or ideology. There may yet come a day when China needs a war and Taiwan could face a similar fate.

Not to mention that nuclear subs are designed to last half a century. By the time the new block III of the Virginia class reaches its end of service there could be enemies to face that don't even exist yet. The US attack submarine force is old: the Los Angeles class is well past retirement age by now and the Seawolf class all but died along with the Cold War with only 3 built. Like it or not, the John Warner and its brethren are needed.

On top of that, for the people asking why these ships are needed. Without the Virginia class the US would have lost its ability to manufacture nuclear submarines. Think of all the experts needed to manufacture one of these vessels from the scientists to the tradesmen used to build them. We are talking about a whole industry that would dissapear without these ships.

This vessel itself is actually a Block III Virginia class submarines. So it has the a redesigned bow to accommodate a new sonar different from the type used for the past 40 years on US Navy submarines. It also accommodates a host of new manufacturing improvements that make it easier, and thus cheaper to manufacture.

The Virginia's are an alternative to the more expensive Sea Wolf Class. In an ideal world you have built the ~29 planned Sea Wolfs as a replacement to the Los Angeles Class. They have incredible capabilities, but they are too expensive in a post Cold War world so the Virginia was designed as an alternative and thus replacement for the 668s (Los Angeles).

So far there are ~48 planned Virginia's to replace the 62 Los Angeles. This results in a reduction in the number of Submarines the US can deploy at any one time.

 

[Coins]

This is probably as good a place as any to whore out the book Blind Mans Bluff. It's a pretty good rundown of the U.S. submarine spying operation conducted during the cold war and gives you some insight into what all the extra space in the aforementioned USS Jimmy Carter is used for. The cable tapping operations they were running were truly bordering on insanity.

That's such a good book. My Captain gave me a copy and I devoured it.

 

[Norml]

Pretty cool stuff. For those commenting on wasteful military spending, it's really not. A lot of the money gets circled back into the civilian sector through contracts. The DoD is the largest employer in the world. We also see tech transferred over to the civilian world. See GPS, robotics work, and the Internet. The research and technology isn't in a cage from which it cannot escape military usage.

Darpa inside

 

[maquiladora]

This is probably as good a place as any to whore out the book Blind Mans Bluff. It's a pretty good rundown of the U.S. submarine spying operation conducted during the cold war and gives you some insight into what all the extra space in the aforementioned USS Jimmy Carter is used for. The cable tapping operations they were running were truly bordering on insanity.

Yeah, it's a good read.

 

[cdyhybrid]

America has always fascinated me when it comes to the military budget in how the typical American perceives it.

Your politicians always talk about the budget and being "fiscally conservative" and they "achieve" this by cutting budgets of things that actually affect American citizens like education, health, social welfare which all amounts to a few billion at most. And at the same time they increase the military spending budget and Americans are completely fine with this.

Our politicians care about hooking up the corporate buddies that gave them campaign money and other kickbacks, that's it.

 

[dalin80]

A sub story covering what some could consider a bit of a theft...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...nquerors-biggest-secret-a-raid-on-Russia.html