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[Jawbreaker]

I'm confused- is it not common knowledge that the word is offensive in the wrong tone/hands?

The OP feels patronizing.

There are plenty of white people who feel like they're being "discriminated" against when they're told it's unbecoming and hurtful to use the word, though of course, anyone is free to say what they want. What they really desire is a free pass from criticism.

 

[eXtv]

I cannot agree with this.



Also this is not remotely representative of Frank as a person or his work, so I'm assuming you aren't actually familiar with either.

That's something for another thread, however.

My question was:

Are there any good examples of white people using "nigger" in a context used to express an idea that is historical/satirical/whatever in ultimately positive or thought provoking way?

Don't take it from me, go read his book. His views are completely indefensible.

His protectionist and elitist attitudes towards "serious" music are vomit-inducing, he was a total mess.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Nah, son you always wanted to say it and are looking for an excuse. White people have "asserted themselves" for centuries and waved nigger around like a stick to keep black people down. Now that you aren't holding the stick, you get antsy and worried that you might not be able to stay in control.

I didn't "always want to say it". There was a time where I didn't know what the word was or have any cultural context for it. Then I knew of the word and its offensive status without knowing why or appreciating its nuance in the lexicon. There's just something psychological about telling someone not to think about or say something that has the opposite effect, and that's my point.

OP gets it half right. People that want to use the word because they don't give a fuck about black people aren't the ones you're trying to reach. So it's a matter of educating people of cultural context, not policing their language if your goal is to keep people from needlessly being assholes.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I get that, but what I am saying is when a conversation like this starts, it shouldn't be black vs white, it should be black vs non white. If the OP had non-black written instead of white, I may not have even asked about brown people

I dunno. It's a pretty elaborately described opening that specifically says only blacks should use this word if they so desire. It just seems to be disingeneous as fuck to be like "well he didn't pick on other minorities enough".

The history of this word is deeply rooted in white and black america. That the opening has focus on it isn't a problem. From the post anyone of any race should be able to figure it ouy. There is no "brown pass" or "Asian pass" or w/e. It just comes off more as you complaining to complain if I am being 100% honest with you.

 

[Draper]

There are plenty of white people who feel like they're being "discriminated" against when they're told it's unbecoming and hurtful to use the word, though of course, anyone is free to say what they want. What they really desire is a free pass from criticism.

Sure. But the OP is preaching to the choir, not to mention in a belittling manner. This is a progressive, like-minded forum. I feel this condescending public service announcement is missing its target demo.

 

[The Artisan]

I dunno. It's a pretty elaborately described opening that specifically says only blacks should use this word if they so desire. It just seems to be disingeneous as fuck to be like "well he didn't pick on other minorities enough".

The history of this word is deeply rooted in white and black america. That the opening has focus on it isn't a problem. From the post anyone of any race should be able to figure it ouy. There is no "brown pass" or "Asian pass" or w/e. It just comes off more as you complaining to complain if I am being 100% honest with you.

If this is an issue about race, then all race should be addressed. I'm not black. But I sure as hell am not white either, I don't inherit any privileges of being white just like I don't have the privilege of saying the n word as a black person. You're not automatically white if you're not black.

 

[Jawbreaker]

I didn't "always want to say it". There was a time where I didn't know what the word was or have any cultural context for it. Then I knew of the word and its offensive status without knowing why or appreciating its nuance in the lexicon. There's just something psychological about telling someone not to think about or say something that has the opposite effect, and that's my point.

Just out of curiosity, do you also get the urge to use the word "gay" as a pejorative? Or to call people "fags" as a term of endearment like is done on the "chan" sites? I'm genuinely curious if it applies to other words or just "nigga."

 

[Dangansona]

Nah, son you always wanted to say it and are looking for an excuse. White people have "asserted themselves" for centuries and waved nigger around like a stick to keep black people down. Now that you aren't holding the stick, you get antsy and worried that you might not be able to stay in control.

That's a hell of a leap.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Just out of curiosity, do you also get the urge to use the word "gay" as a pejorative? Or to call peoples "fags" as a term of endearment like is done on the "chan" sites? I'm genuinely curious if it applies to other words or just "nigga."

I'm just curious, if I tell you not to think of an elephant, what do you think of?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So it's a matter of educating people of cultural context, not policing their language if your goal is to keep people from needlessly being assholes.

It's funny that you are tone policing the OP about what you perceive to be their... tone-policing

 

[Jawbreaker]

I'm just curious, if I tell you not think of an elephant, what do you think of?

Circus clowns.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

Sure. But the OP is preaching to the choir, not to mention in a belittling manner. This is a progressive, like-minded forum. I feel this condescending public service announcement is missing its target demo.

It's a humorous take on the situation. There are white posters that got the message, made a post and moved on. Then there are the other posters who wanted to make exceptions and excuses. And why do black people have to coddle ignorant people into understanding the most basic of concepts.

 

[HiredN00bs]

It's funny that you are tone policing the OP about what you perceive to be their... tone-policing

I'm criticizing technique, not tone. I don't have a problem with anything OP wrote. It's good advice but not presented in the most effective manner. I share his desire to see fewer people be ignorant and offensive about this shit.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

If this is an issue about race, then all race should be addressed. I'm not black. But I sure as hell am not white either, I don't inherit any privileges of being white just like I don't have the privilege of saying the n word as a black person. You're not automatically white if you're not black.

Opening chose to make their thread a certain way. Take it up with him. But that opening makes it clear who the word is for so to say it didn't address other races is to basically imply you didnt read it. Just because it focused on white people (which again, the context of that word is very very ingrained in white and black america specifically) does not imply it wasn't clear from the jump.

No one has said not being black makes you white. You're just making this up. As I said. The word nigga was retaken as a means to empower black people in a time where their identity was being attacked. It had nothing to do with being a minority or feeling the struggle. It had everything to do with black identity. You don't have black identity if you aren't black. Its extremely simple.

 

[The Artisan]

Opening chose to make their thread a certain way. Take it up with him. But that opening makes it clear who the word is for so to say it didn't address other races is to basically imply you didnt read it. Just because it focused on white people (which again, the context of that word is very very ingrained in white and black america specifically) does not imply it wasn't clear from the jump.

No one has said not being black makes you white. You're just making this up. As I said. The word nigga was retaken as a means to empower black people in a time where their identity was being attacked. It had nothing to do with being a minority or feeling the struggle. It had everything to do with black identity. You don't have black identity if you aren't black. Its extremely simple.

I never said anyone said that, so I didn't make shit up. I'll reread the OP again and I'll get back to you with an edited post.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

You're not automatically white if you're not black.

I never said anyone said that, so I didn't make shit up.

:/

 

[Lime]

I think the reception to this conversation would be entirely different in a European context when it comes to US cultural products. I could imagine you would have to wrestle the word away from the cold dead hands of White and Brown Europeans, because they simply see no issue with it in songs and entertainment media. I've been to some hip hop concerts at diverse festivals and you basically have tens of thousands of non-black kids singing the word. I wouldn't even know where to start having the conversation when it comes to quoting from rap/hip hop/film/TV.

 

[HiredN00bs]

I think the reception to this conversation would be entirely different in a European context when it comes to US cultural products. I could imagine you would have to wrestle the word away from the cold dead hands of White and Brown Europeans, because they simply see no issue with it in songs and entertainment media. I've been to some hip hop concerts at diverse festivals and you basically have tens of thousands of non-black kids singing the word. I wouldn't even know where to start having the conversation when it comes to quoting from rap/hip hop/film/TV.

I just don't quote Tarantino among people who might take offense to it.

 

[clearacell]

I would like the opinion of the black community on the increase of the word "gurl" used roughly 462% when a non-black person speaks to a black woman. is this okay? is it racist?

 

[mkenyon]

OP: you're*

Do not speak without thinking
Observe cultural traditions
Never say the n-word
Think about how your respecting the Black community

Read the whole thing, and it seems like common sense, but I tend to avoid potentially awkward situations in casual social settings.

I like D.O.N.T though, good work.

 

[The Artisan]

:/

ya, where did you see me say that someone in the thread actually said that?

also, I found the post in the other thread that I was referencing. Dude is banned now but here's the relevant part

Now, other minorities are sometimes given a pass to say "nigga" because we recognize them as being similar to our culture and history of oppression and racism. That is why DJ Khaled can get a "hood pass," however, no matter what Eminem is still white and thus does not get an open pass to use the word.

 

[HiredN00bs]

ya, where did you see me say that someone in the thread actually said that?

also, I found the post in the other thread that I was referencing. Dude is banned now but here's the relevant part

This is why this way of talking about it is dumb. It's much easier to understand the effect the word has, the meaning it carries for others, then a set of rules about who can say it where or when. The people who don't give a fuck will ignore such rules, and the people who do care aren't any closer to understanding exactly how they are being offensive. OP does a good job of teaching some of that meaning.

 

[TheFlow]

Nah, son you always wanted to say it and are looking for an excuse. White people have "asserted themselves" for centuries and waved nigger around like a stick to keep black people down. Now that you aren't holding the stick, you get antsy and worried that you might not be able to stay in control.

gottem

 

[Gotdatmoney]

ya, where did you see me say that someone in the thread actually said that?

So you're just saying it to say it? Because if so you should know that's not how it's going to be taken.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

I have a test to study for. Can't be distracted.

 

[HiredN00bs]

gottem

Put me in my place

In fairness, there might be something to what he said. We are often oblivious to out internal motivations. Personally, I think it's more of an issue with the word policing my mother did that drives my resentment for it in general. If I wasn't as aware of what people of color have to deal with as I am, I might think that was the most important issue.

 

[CliqWriter]

First off. Black guy here with plenty of white friends who do not use or attempt to use the word. Thanks friends.

Now for the couple friends that do try to use or ask about using the word. We "black people" like you enough to be around you or even be best friends. Just FYI most times it hurts our feelings that this is even a conversation. But sometimes we bend and let you utter nigga because we value our friendship. Not only do we value our friendship but we realize you are too fucking ignorant to realize it hurts us. So many of us ignore it. But I want you to know, we don't like it. We like you.

 

[The Artisan]

This is why this way of talking about it is dumb. It's much easier to understand the effect the word has, the meaning it carries for others, then a set of rules about who can say it where or when. The people who don't give a fuck will ignore such rules, and the people who do care aren't any closer to understanding exactly how they are being offensive. OP does a good job of teaching some of that meaning.

I do give a fuck about the rules, but the rules have to be fair, and they are. But that post goes to show no matter what, it's going to vary from person to person.

So you're just saying it to say it? Because if so you should know that's not how it's going to be taken.

i'm saying that's an interpretation of the OP since there's no spectrum, just rules for white people and the word for black people.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Can I still post that funny Tom Hanks fake movie poster? That's my favorite image ever

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Can I still post that funny Tom Hanks fake movie poster? That's my favorite image ever

Why is that not a movie yet?

 

[Inferno313]

I have a test to study for. Can't be distracted.

Hahahaha.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

If they can say it, why can't I? Honky, pls..😏

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Can I say "ninja" instead?

Only if you drink faygo, carry a hatchet, and make a fool of yourself.

 

[Lovely Salsa]

Is Tila Tequila biracial? Because she seems to use the n word all the time, the one that ends with -er

 

[GeordieMark]

I think the reception to this conversation would be entirely different in a European context when it comes to US cultural products. I could imagine you would have to wrestle the word away from the cold dead hands of White and Brown Europeans, because they simply see no issue with it in songs and entertainment media. I've been to some hip hop concerts at diverse festivals and you basically have tens of thousands of non-black kids singing the word. I wouldn't even know where to start having the conversation when it comes to quoting from rap/hip hop/film/TV.

Yep. I mentioned it in another thread, but I witnessed this watching Kanye at Glastonbury. It was a bit awkward listing to the call and response he did during 'Golddigger'. I took it like he was having a bit of a joke at the expense of the people singing it back at him completely ignorant of what they were actually singing.

I don't necessarily agree that it's not seen as an extremely offensive word though even in pop culture, certainly in the UK. If you're saying it, you damn well know exactly how offensive it is. Whether that stops people is another story, but almost everyone knows the history.

 

[Pavaloo]

i was at a music festival where schoolboy q told everyone they were allowed to say it because everyone was afraid to sing along to blessed lol

Spoiler

great post though. i use the d.o.n.t. system

 

[Catvoca]

Yep. I mentioned it in another thread, but I witnessed this watching Kanye at Glastonbury. It was a bit awkward listing to the call and response he did during 'Golddigger'. I took it like he was having a bit of a joke at the expense of the people singing it back at him completely ignorant of what they were actually singing.

I don't necessarily agree that it's not seen as an extremely offensive word though, certainly in the UK. If you're saying it, you damn well know exactly how offensive it is. Whether that stops people is another story, but almost everyone knows the history.

I agree with you about UK and Ireland, but
it's very different in some mainland European countries. I was visiting my sister in a village in Spain last year and negro or nigger was the term literally everyone used and they didn't see it as offensive at all.

 

[Thornton Reed]

i was at a music festival where schoolboy q told everyone they were allowed to say it because everyone was afraid to sing along to blessed lol

Spoiler

great post though. i use the d.o.n.t. system

I was at a Kanye gig in Manchester years ago and he told the crowd they could use it.

I always found it odd that rappers like b real and big pun used the word so liberally

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

As a privileged white guy (with two black friends to boot!), its ridiculous seeing other white people feel like they are being oppressed or some shit in here. Be an adult, take responsibility. Understand context and the environment you are in. Both of my friends have routinely used the word directed towards me and have even encouraged me to call them the same. This doesn't fucking mean I'm going to expect anyone else to be a-ok with me using the word in front of them. Another example is listening to Kendrick or Biggie in private versus in public. If I am listening to it in the car I'm not and don't feel I should be afraid to sing along to the lyrics. If I have my headphones in walking to campus and someone hears me say the word and is offended, I'm not going to get all defensive about it. It would be my fault and apologize, for I should have known better.

 

[mkenyon]

Nah, son you always wanted to say it and are looking for an excuse. White people have "asserted themselves" for centuries and waved nigger around like a stick to keep black people down. Now that you aren't holding the stick, you get antsy and worried that you might not be able to stay in control.

I think you're partially right, but also are erring a bit on the side of condescension.

It's like this: distinct parts of West/North Europe culture has long been obsessed with complete lack of censorship and free speech. See: Charlie Hebdo, tons of Comedians, South Park, the 1st Amendment.

That definitely comes from a place of power and privilege, no doubt. However, it's not solely for the purpose of keeping people down, though it has done so and people will try to use it for that purpose as well.

The African American community has long had to censor themselves, and it all relates to the system of power and oppression. The idea that white people would then have issue with this, I can see why you would jump to the conclusion that you have.

But you need to understand that the use of any/all words and concepts is something that a lot of people take very dear to heart. It's not fear of losing the ability to oppress, but rather losing what they view as freedom of expression. Yes, that is certainly a loss of power that they are fearing, but not a loss of power to oppress.

The type of people I'm talking about probably/maybe have a token black friend or two, and probably go out of their way to smile and be nice to black people, to show them how NOT racist they are, but in the end makes them still racist, but at least they're trying and their heart is in the right place. You know what I'm talking about.

First time I've put this concept into words, so I'll include a picture of what I'm talking about because it's what I've viewed in my head the whole time I've been writing this. The actual numbers are meaningless, as I don't know enough to attribute scores, but the concept is what I'm trying to get across.

 

[GeordieMark]

I agree with you about UK and Ireland, but
it's very different in some mainland European countries. I was visiting my sister in a village in Spain last year and negro or nigger was the term literally everyone used and they didn't see it as offensive at all.

Yeah, I can't really speak for the rest of Europe but Spain's issues are well known, for me mainly through the treatment black footballers have suffered there. Italy is pretty bad in that regard too. Mario Ballotelli had some horrific stuff chanted at him.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Why is that not a movie yet?

I would pay all of the money

 

[Famassu]

I just don't understand people who seem to have this lust to use the word, in any of its forms. I've managed to live my life perfectly fine without ever having to resort to the word nigger or nigga or anything of the sort. Why not just use "what's up, dude?" or something racially neutral like that, instead of skirting on the borders of acceptable with the whole "nigga isn't nigger, it's totally A-OK!" crap.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Sorry if this is off-topic but maybe that's a good place to ask... English isn't my first language so I'm genuinely wondering, not concern trolling or anything. So I noticed that apparently using "the blacks" is considered offensive (e.g. Trump's statement about his great relationship with "the blacks", at first I thought it was ridiculous because it was obviously false, but turns out his use of "the blacks" makes it worse?), but "blacks" isn't. I know you're supposed to say "black people", but I think "blacks", "whites", etc. is OK when talking about general demographics, right? Such as "40% of whites voted X, 42% of blacks voted Y, 39% of hispanics voted Z" and so on. But I'm not sure why adding a "the" would turn it offensive. Can someone explain? It seems to be more about just awkward grammar, right?
Apologies for my ignorance.

I'm criticizing technique, not tone. I don't have a problem with anything OP wrote. It's good advice but not presented in the most effective manner.

I fail to see the difference between "technique" and "tone" then, but OK

 

[Aurongel]

"The blacks" to me sounds a bit alienating. As if they're from some other country or world. It's a strange way to refer to citizens who live in the same country as you. It sounds like some hardcore othering to me.

 

[Jawbreaker]

I just don't understand people who seem to have this lust to use the word, in any of its forms. I've managed to live my life perfectly fine without ever having to resort to the word nigger or nigga or anything of the sort. Why not just use "what's up, dude?" or something racially neutral like that, instead of skirting on the borders of acceptable with the whole "nigga isn't nigger, it's totally A-OK!" crap.

Yeah, there are plenty of good replacement words. Outside of discussion (like this thread), I never use those words, nor do I use fag, retarded, cracker, or gay as a pejorative. Why do I need to? I'd rather use different terms that don't have the baggage or history.

 

[D i Z]

So you're just saying it to say it? Because if so you should know that's not how it's going to be taken.

You're wasting your time. They aren't interested in the topic as it pertains to being a functional social norm for the time being. They are framing their argument solely about how the arrangement affects their own lexicon, and theirs alone. This conversation thread isn't about the use of the term itself. It's about their own position on the acceptance hierarchy.
Dude is nothing if not consistent.

Why was it hidden on Netflix? It's a new release, but wasn't in the new section. I had to search for it specifically. I want to talk your ear off about it, but I don't think anyone wants to see a whole page taken up by it, so I'll refrain.

No, she's just a delusion self hating wanna be white supremacist.

 

[digdug2k]

Sorry if this is off-topic but maybe that's a good place to ask... English isn't my first language so I'm genuinely wondering, not concern trolling or anything. So I noticed that apparently using "the blacks" is considered offensive (e.g. Trump's statement about his great relationship with "the blacks", at first I thought it was ridiculous because it was obviously false, but turns out his use of "the blacks" makes it worse?), but "blacks" isn't. I know you're supposed to say "black people", but I think "blacks", "whites", etc. is OK when talking about general demographics, right? Such as "40% of whites voted X, 42% of blacks voted Y, 39% of hispanics voted Z" and so on. But I'm not sure why adding a "the" would turn it offensive. Can someone explain? It seems to be more about just awkward grammar, right?
Apologies for my ignorance.

The "the" just makes it feel more like you're objectifying them as objects rather than people. Quirk of English. In the 80's, even "black" was offensive. I don't know what happened to all of that.

The only thing that bothers me about this is talking to my kids about it. Not because its super confusing, but I grew up super scared of "bad" words. I made a deal with myself that I'd teach my kids that words aren't bad, it just depends on why you're using them. Even "good" words are bad if you're using them to hurt others. Nigger is like the one exception to that. It doesn't matter why you're saying it to someone. So it sucks to have to explain "You know all that stuff about how it matters why you're saying things, in this case none of that matters. Just don't say it. Ever."

 

[besada]

The moderators have discussed it, and we're not going to be using the word "coon" on GAF in the future. We consider it a racial slur, regardless of who is using it. Going forward, use of it --not just as a direct insult -- but applied to a group or a person whose behavior you disapprove of, will result in bans.

If you have questions or concerns about this, or other moderation policy, as always, feel free to PM a moderator.

 

[moggio]

Don't take it from me, go read his book. His views are completely indefensible.

His protectionist and elitist attitudes towards "serious" music are vomit-inducing, he was a total mess.

I've got a copy of his book, thanks. Do you have an example of a view of his that you find particularly indefensible? I mean, he had a few. You can't find them ALL bad.

I'm confused also because "protectionist and elitist attitudes towards "serious" music" doesn't sound much like Frank to me. He wasn't at all precious or sentimental about compositional conventions. He believed you should do whatever the fuck sounds good to you, and if someone else likes it that's a bonus.

Here's him talking about that here: https://youtu.be/gYmIacqyKCg?t=2m58s (also an excellent documentary about his compositional methodology.)