Piscopink said:
Old, but yeah. :lol
Piscopink said:
Hero said:To all the people talking about FPS controls and the Wii-mote, wouldn't two of the Wii-motes be sufficient?
Dual wield.
Shogmaster said:Then you need two sensor bars (sensor bar will be confused by more than one IR emitter), but the real problem is that there is no reliable mechanism for centering the cursor with the IR/sensor bar.
Shogmaster said::lol He was inspired after watching my footage of 1up Skip doing his Tennis bit.
Would it be bad form for me to upload that? :lol
Playing is believing? More like playing is make believing!
civilstrife said:Um... that's not true at all. Of course you can use multiple Wiimotes. How do you expect to play multiplayer games?
Edwood said:Weren't there two Wii-mote's being used for that drum game?
Two Wii-motes could make for an interesting and perhaps compelling FPS gaming control experience.
But the game would still look like shit.
Shogmaster said:Yes, but the IR is not being used for that. Think for a minute. IR is line of sight. How would that work than you are shaking the shit out of the Wiimote?
No it would not since auto centering is an issue with such a free hand method of cursor control. Double that problem and you will chuck the Wiimotes out of frustration within a minute of play.
And for the record, I don't mind the graphics shown for MP3. I thought it looked nice. Red Steel on the other hand.....
Emotions said:Wow , i see the trolling is going strong in these thread with just 2 users, keep going guys, you represent the majority here.
I agree with you on that but you're not the only ones who played them, there are several other people too and have given positive impressions , so i don't see why should i believe 2 people who are constantly saying negative things about Nintendo, over the majority of positive impressions. I'm not saying you're liying but i take yours as just another opinion wich kinda gets lost in the sea of positive ones.Shogmaster said:You can keep calling it trolling if it makes you feel better. The problem is, you have no idea how it plays with FPS where as we do since we've experience it.
Emotions said:I agree with you on that but you're not the only ones who played them, there are several other people too and have given positive impressions , so i don't see why should i believe 2 people who are constantly saying negative things about Nintendo, over the majority of positive impressions. I'm not saying you're liying but i take yours as just another opinion wich kinda gets lost in the sea of positive ones.
I'm not from the US , so no E3 for me, but i'm getting a Wii on day one. Along with MP3 and several other games.
Deku said:When did dual analog become the standard for non casual hardcore FPS gaming? Most FPS players I've spoken to see the console FPS games as poor cousins of the real hard-core stuff on the PC and the lack of a mouse/keyboard combo means aiming with a control pad is always going to be sneered on by the PC crowd where the FPS base is at. Not consoles.
I'm by no means an FPS expert, but I'm pretty sure we'll see different kinds of FPS games that play to the control mechanism's strengths, mainly the aiming mechanism.
If you frame your entire argument around what a dual-analog set-up after 9 or so years of trial and error by developers, with what is essentially a new control scheme with 1 game to show for it, I think you'll draw the same conclusions you draw everytime.
Shogmaster said:So undertand what I'm saying. Wii will thrive on games that largely automate the controls and make the experience relatively simple for the user. And that's great for attracting casual gamers. But this industry's business model is not built on casual gamers that might buy one or two games a year, and play maybe a hour or two a week. That kind of attachment rate will be disaster for Nintendo if they don't make the gameplay in their game compelling for hardcore users as well. And for those hardcore users like us, the Wiimote is a huge disappointment since the complex controls are regressing, not progressing.
huh?Monk said:Uh, the whole point of the wiimote is to have simpler controls. And hardcore gamers is not enough going by all the doom and gloom theories shelled out as of recently. And when exactly did you use the wiimote? Third day? Is it possible that the wiimote went under a biut of wear and tear like the DS last year and thus didnt control properly?
Blackcherry said:huh?
Monk said:Uh, the whole point of the wiimote is to have simpler controls.
And hardcore gamers is not enough going by all the doom and gloom theories shelled out as of recently.
And when exactly did you use the wiimote? Third day? Is it possible that the wiimote went under a biut of wear and tear like the DS last year and thus didnt control properly?
Shogmaster said:I used the Wiimote on the first and second day (I went back because some tool told me Red Steel does the controls WAAAY better than MP3. HA!).
Shogmaster said:Ed and I came into this thing hoping for a console controller that would improve and advance the way FPS controls are done.
Monk said:So why haven't the big sites mentioned this. Care to explain how exactly the controller was unresponsive etc? Is it something you can look past?
volmer said:The controller has the ability to do this - it sounds very much like a software problem. As was discussed earlier, mainly by PhunkFury and others - search, the IR/whatever-tracking is clearly not enough in its own right, but when coupled with the accelerometers in the controller it should be: It "simply" needs middleware that correctly recalibrates controller whenever sensor bar comes into sight and automatically uses accelerometers for tracking when sensor bar is out of sight.
To sum it up: Have patience.
Shogmaster said:The only way to do it is with the gyroscope. IR and accelerometer just won't work with controlling the look camera. Of course the problem with cheap gyroscope used in Wiimote is the delayed reaction due to inertia.
volmer said:As far as I understand, not really: The delays people experienced in the controller registering movement have not been due to the accelerometer reporting in late, but simply due to the games being based on pattern-recognition (see: Red Steel sword-fights - clearly a move isn't executed until the player has already made a swipe or how would it be recognized as a swipe?) rather than direct translation of movement to an object in the game (wii sports baseball as an example).
I think it'll work perfectly come TGS and release, they just need to nail the middleware.
Deku said:Didn't Sony have trouble with their Warhawk Tilt control as well with latency issues?
I didn't have a chance to play that title, but people I spoke to who played with both had better things to say about the Nintendo tilt function over the Sony one, albiet it's not an entirely fair comparison as ther is only 1 sample for DS3 controller.
What I'm trying to get my head around here is whether Shog's complaints is a hardware issue, software issue, inexperience on the developer's part due to the nature of the control scheme or somecobination of the above.
My general feeling is that this stuff is so new that trying to draw broad conclusions vis a vis FPS control models based on established gamepads that developers understand inside out with well established control conventions is a bit of a red herring. Shog disagrees with me, but I'm still not convinced of his point.
Shogmaster said:The red herring is the notion that the Wiimote's technology is so new that devs don't know how to it properly. The technologies in the Wiimote (gyros, IR sensors, accelerometers) are NOT new. They have been used in games for YEARS (MS gyro Sidewinder dates back to 1998 or so, IR sensors been used in light guns for years, accelerometers been used in those cheapo sports game thingy for years).
Deku said:Do developers actually have enough experience making games using these new control mechanisms? I mean most of the Wii games seem to control just fine so there's obviously some level of expertise already achieved. But on the topic of FPS games and complex controls, are you sure there's no way to move it forward?
I remember a time when no one could figure out how to make a game like golden eye work on the N64 and RARE/Acclaim figured it out and trail blazed the control scheme for analog FPS console games. Would you rule out a similar thing happening for an entirely new controller?
Shogmaster said:I was not complaining about delays for sword play in Red Steel. I was complaining about the IR emitter/sensor bar combo being a really poor mechanism for look camera in FPSes. Wrong topic bud.
Shogmaster said:No amount of middleware will fix the fact that for FPSes, Wiimote is broken.
Shogmaster said:I just don't see how with the IR/sensor bar. It's definitely not ideal for FPSes. It's much better suited for point and click adventures and things like strategy games where a fast free moving cursor is needed.
Shmmeee said:How could this possibly be anything other than a software issue?
As I see it there are two ways to do FPS on Wii: use the wiimote like a mouse, where you tilt up down left right instead of moving; or use it like a light gun, where you use the sensor bar to point.
The first would work just like any PC FPS surely as it's more sensitive by all accounts and therefore could be tweaked to mouse levels. You would look with the wiimote and move with the stick, the aiming reticule would be stuck to the center of the screen.
The second would provide a totally different play experience, it would be more like Time Crisis with movement. You only aim on screen and move with the stick.
I think the problem comes from developers trying to mix the two with using the "light gun" to look as well as shoot. That's how MP:C works is it not?
Did Shog/Edwood play in expert mode? Was it better or worse to have a smaller dead zone?
What are their thoughts on fixing the reticule to the center and downing the sensitivity to remove shakey hand camera?
volmer said:I saw this post somewhere (gamespot maybe) from someone who had played MP3 with the controller. What he said that the pointer was great for hitting stuff within the current view, but that turning was what made it feel sluggish because of the slow turning speed and the fact that you had to place the cursor very near the edge of the screen to start turning in the first place.
If you look at the newer Zelda:TP videos of the wii-controlled bow you can see that there's a small oval/circle in the center where the view is stale, and as soon as the cursor leaves this middle area the view starts turning around with a speed that is relative to the cursor's distance from the center of the screen.
I think the above is a good indication that there are many ways to implement FPS-controls with the wiimote. I don't think you should write them off just yet just because they haven't given you the one you prefer at their first public showing...
jarosh said:it will never stop, right?
yeah. it will never stop
This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue singing it forever just because...jarosh said:it will never stop, right?
yeah. it will never stop
Shmmeee said:Did Shog/Edwood play in expert mode? Was it better or worse to have a smaller dead zone? What are their thoughts on fixing the reticule to the center and downing the sensitivity to remove shakey hand camera?
Yes it does.Shogmaster said:And no, the nunchuck does not have a gyro inside.
Edwood said:I already said I tried "expert" mode. You can tell by looking at the cursor if you are in "expert" mode. It looks like you are playing on meth. While it reduced the amount of loss of calibration, it still happened.
The only way I can see the Wii-mote working well for FPS games is a toggle between fixing the cursor in the center of the screen, and having a free roaming cursor as it already is in MP3. Basically like Left Trigger GRAW style aiming.
Purely using the Gyro without the IR would be useless. I have a Gyration Gryo mouse, and have tried to play FPS games with it, and it does not work well. Gets very tiring to use as well.
gyros have nothing to do with position tracking. gyros work seperately from the sensor bar, they sense tilting. the sensor is supposed to track the remote in 3d space.Shmmeee said:Right, I'm missing something somewhere. What exactly does the sensor bar do? Make it more accurate than gyro only?
Does the wiimote emit an IR signal that's picked up by various sensors along the bar? How does it work?
jarosh said:gyros have nothing to do with position tracking. gyros work seperately from the sensor bar, they sense tilting. the sensor is supposed to track the remote in 3d space.
look, that wouldn't make sense at ALL. imagine you're playing metroid prime hunters but instead of using the touch screen for aiming you would tilt the ds like in wario ware twisted to move an on screen crosshair. sounds neither accurate nor intuitive, right? right? imagine you would have to TILT your mouse left or right to move the pointer. that'd be a little awkard. it would probably be even clumsier than using a joystick for aiming.Shmmeee said:OK, so how does pointing work? If you are simply moving a cursor why do you need to know the position of the wiimote? Surely you only need to know that it's been swung left or right or tilted up or down, which gyros could register.
Maybe I'm being dense but I don't see why you'd need the sensor bar for anything that doesn't rely on tracking the position of the wiimote, or why you'd need to track the wiimote for FPS aiming.
jarosh said:look, that wouldn't make sense at ALL. imagine you're playing metroid prime hunters but instead of using the touch screen for aiming you would tilt the ds like in wario ware twisted to move an on screen crosshair. sounds neither accurate nor intuitive, right? right? imagine you would have to TILT your mouse left or right to move the pointer. that'd be a little awkard. it would probably be even clumsier than using a joystick for aiming.
edit: the pointing works JUST LIKE a laser pointer. i bet you've never heard that one before. it's like a touch screen where you are constantly touching the screen (uhm, yeah).
The Duck Hunt demo comes to mind as a counterexample.Shogmaster said:In those mutiplayer games, you don't use Wiimote's IR capability. MP3 can't be played from one Wii with only one sensor bar AFAIK.
jarosh said:aaagh. no, that's not what i'm saying at all. i'm not sure what's so hard to understand. but sorry dude, i really don't have the patience for this. i'm sure you can get all the information you need somewhere else. we're in the internet, remember. ign, gamespot, 1up, whatever.
JoshuaJSlone said:The Duck Hunt demo comes to mind as a counterexample.
jarosh said:listen man, i made an honest attempt to explain it and apparently i failed. but if all you got from my posts is "It works like a laser pointer LOLZ" then i'm sorry. but it's not entirely my fault then.
The remote and sensor bar work in tandem to produce the pointer/cursor effect. To actually directly point at something on screen, and have that be where the virtual cursor is, requires calibration. I imagine that before calibration, pointing directly at the center of the sensor bar would give you the default center point. From there you would change wrist tilt to point in the various directions.Shmmeee said:Shog says that you don't aim at the screen, you aim at the sensor bar, which seems crazy to me. I mean you might as well be moving a cursor as much as aiming at anything. If you are just moving a cursor then you only need to know rotation of the remote (hence my crappy ascii art )
I'm not sure what the original source of this is, but in the Wii accelerometer details thread, shortly after the PixArt press release PkunkFury said "and we've heard that the CMOS sensors are actually in the remote and not in the sensor bar from people on the show floor." If that's the case, it's the remote detecting the sensor bar, and not vice-versa.I guess all will be revealed after it launches, but I just can't wrap my head around that sensor bar's technology. Pixart, who make it, work with imaging, which would imply there's camera's in there maybe tracking an infrared light on the remote.
Although when I said sphere it's actually a torus but without a hole, The surface of revolution when you rotate a circle about an axis not through its centre but intersecting with the circle.Ok so the optical sensor can nail 4 degrees of freedom, limiting it's possible position and orientation to being on a sphere (think about it....hint; the centre of the sphere is not the centre of the sensor bar) with the orientation being different at each point on the sphere. Therefore by using the tilt sensors (2 degrees of freedom) it can calculate where on the sphere it lies, double checking with the accelerometers (another 4 degrees of freedom). Ingenius, I wouldn't have thought of this and I'm very impressed Nintendo has got this pointing device working as well as it seems to from the demos.
edit; It actually only tells it's exact position and orientation within a reflection...although that'd be through the other side of the TV. This problem can also be solved by making each end of the sensor bar "look" different, e.g. different wavelength.
Unfortunately this means that the remote can't accurately keep track of its location without being pointed at the sensor bar.
JoshuaJSlone said:The remote and sensor bar work in tandem to produce the pointer/cursor effect. To actually directly point at something on screen, and have that be where the virtual cursor is, requires calibration. I imagine that before calibration, pointing directly at the center of the sensor bar would give you the default center point. From there you would change wrist tilt to point in the various directions.
I'm not sure what the original source of this is, but in the Wii accelerometer details thread, shortly after the PixArt press release PkunkFury said "and we've heard that the CMOS sensors are actually in the remote and not in the sensor bar from people on the show floor." If that's the case, it's the remote detecting the sensor bar, and not vice-versa.
Ok so the optical sensor can nail 4 degrees of freedom, limiting it's possible position and orientation to being on a sphere (think about it....hint; the centre of the sphere is not the centre of the sensor bar) with the orientation being different at each point on the sphere. Therefore by using the tilt sensors (2 degrees of freedom) it can calculate where on the sphere it lies, double checking with the accelerometers (another 4 degrees of freedom). Ingenius, I wouldn't have thought of this and I'm very impressed Nintendo has got this pointing device working as well as it seems to from the demos.
edit; It actually only tells it's exact position and orientation within a reflection...although that'd be through the other side of the TV. This problem can also be solved by making each end of the sensor bar "look" different, e.g. different wavelength.
Unfortunately this means that the remote can't accurately keep track of its location without being pointed at the sensor bar.
Basically I think the remote will see an image of where the 2 sensor bar ends are.Shmmeee said:I can understand the optical sensor telling left and right through the distance between the two points on the bar. How would it tell up and down though? Or distance from the bar?
Also, how does the baseball game work? The IR sensor on the wiimote must be pointing towards the ceiling as you start your swing.
Just thinking about the maths involved in calculating the swing is mind boggling. Maybe a physics card isn't out of the question, there's got to be some serious maths going on just to work out what the remote's doing.