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[TheAssist]

Maybe not every game needs trophies? Because, you know, it detracts from the core experience.
The player is meant to play through the game in a certain way. The dev doesnt want you to stay in one place and look for hidden stuff, because that fucks up the pacing and immersion.
It helps people with compulsion issues to focus on whats important in this game. And when there isnt a lot to do besides walking and experiencing the story, you simply dont need a lot of trophies. Its a good thing. It shows they know whats important and they dont abuse certain tendencies of human psychology for no reason that would serve the game.

I will never understand why people claim to not understand why people enjoy trophies/achievements.

100%'ing games has been a lust for some gamers since the dawn of video games. Achievements add an extra layer to that sweet dopamine and feelings of accomplishment.

You might as well say "I'll never understand why people do all the sidequests in Zelda".

Its not that people dont "get" it. Its just that many people dont feel any empathy. Because for me personally, trying to get all the trophies in a game is incredibly boring. Its a chore. A waste of time. Not fun at all. It actively goes against any kind of enjoyment I might have with a game. How anyone could have fun walking around in a game they've already beaten just to find arbitrarily hidden stuff is beyond me.

But I do know that some people enjoy that stuff. I understand the psychological and biochemical reasons for it.
At this point its a personal thing. Do you actually enjoy it and do it for fun. Or do you feel forced to do it, because of your compulsion, but you dont actually have fun anymore.
In some games these systems feel abusive. There is no reason to put completely absurd amounts of trash content into you game. Especially if the gameplay and gamedesign just isnt meant to support that kind of play style.
Also I agree with some if the things that Overside mentioned about extrinsically focused design in those games.

edit: Maybe the inconsistency in the trophy system gives more flexibility for devs? I mean not every devs wants to make a game that abides the rules of such a streamlined system. I think it would be bad if you had to design your game from ground up to enable a certain trophy/achievement system in order to release it on that plattform.

 

[User 479360]

At least it has them, right? I mean, some games benefit from a lot and others don't. I could see the argument for more here, given its genre, but it's not a huge deal.

 

[Fushichou187]

Rise of the Tomb Raider told me I was 100% complete on main title/load screen, my achievement score said otherwise. Game was traded in, no chance in hell I'm going around moping up kill achievements.
I 100% the game.

Oh cool. I finished Tomb Raider on the PS3 and didn't notice that stat displayed so I wonder if they started implementing it with ROTTR? Either way that's a smart way to say "you've done everything here" without necessarily tying it to acquiring 100% of achievements. I kind of wish all games tracked that those metrics separately.

 

[Mega]

So, after reading the first page am I safe to assume this whole thread is people shaming trophies/achievements

No.

I'm not against trophies. I have no problem with them as a neat, minor "extra" to the actual content of a game. I do take issue with obsessing over trophies and achievements, complaining that there aren't enough in a game and that their omission could be a deal breaker for someone. That mentality exhibits messed up priorities that lie far outside the gameplay the devs intended for you to enjoy when purchasing the game. Learn to enjoy the game on its own merits and feel rewarded by the in-game journey and experiences. It seems so wrong and silly to rely on constant little notifications, superficially reinforcing you're doing a good job, as reward and gratification.

 

[bomblord1]

It both astonishes and sickens me the amount of importance people put on trophies/achievements. It is just a line of text on your profile saying you did something with a picture of a trophy next to it. I can't understand it being something to get up in arms or upset over and I REALLY can't understand how it can make someone change their mind on a game purchase.

It's a neat addition a way to prove you did something difficult in a game not all of.... this.

 

[F4r0_Atak]

I wish more devs did games with 0 trophies/achievements.

I think there's something about Trophies/achievements being required for them to be released in the west and on consoles nowadays. It's one of the reasons Monster Hunter Tri HD never got localized for PS3 in the West, Capcom never got around to create a trophy list for the game (not even in the Japanese version).

 

[therapist]

the whole trophy system needs to be gone

its so utterly pointless

 

[recklesscognition]

Trophy hunting is a way of playing a game lots of people enjoy, myself included. I like the process and feeling of completing certain events to earn trophies just as much as I like 'playing' the game.

So when I see this game has 5 trophies I assume that it will be a game that doesn't require collecting, doing certain things a certain way, or requiring any type of planning and execution. You just play. For me, that isn't that appealing. I would be just as happy watching someone do a lets play on this.

 

[Petrae]

So, after reading the first page am I safe to assume this whole thread is people shaming trophies/achievements even tho they're an honest part of modern gaming and has just as much of a point as any other aspect of a game but people refuse to believe so cause they were only introduced 10 years ago?

Not the WHOLE thread. About 95% of it. Par for the course when it comes to Achievement/Trophy threads here on GAF.

 

[shiftplusone]

So, after reading the first page am I safe to assume this whole thread is people shaming trophies/achievements

Nope

Campo Santo decided they wanted 5 trophies in the PS4 version and they ultimately are the deciders for how many the game should have. They did nothing wrong

If that is not "enough" for you, you are the problem.

 

[breakfuss]

Trophy hunting is a way of playing a game lots of people enjoy, myself included. I like the process and feeling of completing certain events to earn trophies just as much as I like 'playing' the game.

So when I see this game has 5 trophies I assume that it will be a game that doesn't require collecting, doing certain things a certain way, or requiring any type of planning and execution. You just play. For me, that isn't that appealing. I would be just as happy watching someone do a lets play on this.

And that, my friend, is terribly sad.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

the whole trophy system needs to be gone

its so utterly pointless

Should percent completion in games a la Mario be thrown out too?

 

[Mega]

Trophy hunting is a way of playing a game lots of people enjoy, myself included. I like the process and feeling of completing certain events to earn trophies just as much as I like 'playing' the game.

So when I see this game has 5 trophies I assume that it will be a game that doesn't require collecting, doing certain things a certain way, or requiring any type of planning and execution. You just play. For me, that isn't that appealing. I would be just as happy watching someone do a lets play on this.

"Just playing a video game isn't appealing to me." That's literally what you said.

The state of gaming in the modern age, ladies and gents. FFS...

 

[recklesscognition]

"Just playing a video game isn't appealing to me." That's literally what you said.

The state of gaming in the modern age, ladies and gents. FFS...

It really isn't. It's just not challenging if there are additional requirements to do something difficult in a game. The style of modern games makes the vast majority of them experience based and requiring little skill. I grew up playing games that were challenging and required me to replay them hundreds of time to beat them. Mainly that was because I was a kid and just not good. But I like the challenge and too much these days games are just simulators that require little skill.

 

[gelf]

If you like trophies then that's fine, but expecting developers to include them against their wishes just to cater to you is going too far. You have plenty of other games to get your trophy fix.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It really isn't. It's just not challenging if there are additional requirements to do something difficult in a game. The style of modern games makes the vast majority of them experience based and requiring little skill. I grew up playing games that were challenging and required me to replay them hundreds of time to beat them. Mainly that was because I was a kid and just not good. But I like the challenge and too much these days games are just simulators that require little skill.

I don't necessarily agree, but I do see what you're getting at here. In an era of brain-dead easy games, it is nice to have an occasional push to do experimental or difficult things to add some spice to the mix.

 

[Maintenance]

You just play. For me, that isn't that appealing.

 

[IvanJ]

I am still puzzled to why Sony and MS don't offer trophy/achievement microtransactions.
Gold trophy - $1.99
1000 G - $4.99

They can even do Season Pass type deal: Buy a game for $60, pay $10 for a trophy set.

From what I read here, they'd be swimming in cash.

 

[elitewillie1]

Trophy hunting is a way of playing a game lots of people enjoy, myself included. I like the process and feeling of completing certain events to earn trophies just as much as I like 'playing' the game.

So when I see this game has 5 trophies I assume that it will be a game that doesn't require collecting, doing certain things a certain way, or requiring any type of planning and execution. You just play. For me, that isn't that appealing. I would be just as happy watching someone do a lets play on this.

This is so sad. Achieve stuff in real life my friend.

 

[Novocaine]

I think 5 more meaningful trophies is a better option than 15-20 with dumb requirements like completing the tutorial.

 

[mobilesworking]

Some games have lots of trophies others have less than toes on Halle Berry's left foot..

Clearance sale at the metaphor store

 

[breakfuss]

Clearance sale at the metaphor store

LMFAOOO

 

[Pestilence11]

Honestly, why stop at games!? I wish books, music, television and movies had trophies too! That way I could really feel accomplished.

lol

 

[Creamium]

I'd say there's only one 'rule' when it comes to trophy sets, which is that they should be adjusted to the type of experience the game provides. Firewatch is obviously a narrative-driven game, so just having a few trophies for completing the game, suits just fine. Would you rather have trophies for getting collectibles? I think not.

There are other games that benefit from having a varied trophy/achievement set, and can add something to the game. Take an old example like Crackdown, where a lot of the achievements rewarded you for screwing around, like juggling cars in the air with rockets.

Firewatch doesn't seem like one of those games, so this limited set is perfect for me.

The devs could've screwed completionists over with a set like Everybody's gone to the Rapture, which pretty much openly mocks trophy culture. But they didn't, and this is a good basic set.

 

[2+2=5]

I don't get some responses in this thread, like op i don't care about trophies, that means that if i find something unusual i don't have the right to be surprised?

Anyway i don't remember the game but it only had bronze trophies, that was really weird too, the game wasn't unknow, bad, short or easy, worse/shorter/easier games had even gold trophies.

 

[Joni]

This is so sad. Achieve stuff in real life my friend.

Why play games when you can achieve stuff in real life?

 

[TheAggroCraig]

I used to care about the number of trophies/achievements, but now I'm satisfied with a higher percentage. Less is more sometimes, and this is just a walking simulator basically, no?

 

[bidguy]

This is so sad. Achieve stuff in real life my friend.

this doesnt make any sense

 

[DietRob]

I am still puzzled to why Sony and MS don't offer trophy/achievement microtransactions.
Gold trophy - $1.99
1000 G - $4.99

They can even do Season Pass type deal: Buy a game for $60, pay $10 for a trophy set.

From what I read here, they'd be swimming in cash.

I didn't think there could be a way to make trophies worse for gaming. I was wrong.

I've never got a platinum trophy before. There have been occasions that I've tried but grinding in a game I would otherwise be done with for a some extra points by my username isn't appealing to me. With that said I'm not actively against games that have trophies. I am thankful that the option of turning off notifications for them exist. Since a trophy or achievement pop can break my concentration/immersion in a game.

 

[GRaider81]

You just play. For me, that isn't that appealing. I would be just as happy watching someone do a lets play on this.

Saddest thing I've ever read on GAF.

 

[Joni]

I didn't think there could be a way to make trophies worse for gaming. I was wrong.

I've never got a platinum trophy before. There have been occasions that I've tried but grinding in a game I would otherwise be done with for a some extra points by my username isn't appealing to me. With that said I'm not actively against games that have trophies. I am thankful that the option of turning off notifications for them exist. Since a trophy or achievement pop can break my concentration/immersion in a game.

That means basically you don't finish any games?

 

[cyba89]

You just play. For me, that isn't that appealing. I would be just as happy watching someone do a lets play on this.

Wow, that's sad.
Maybe you should search for another hobby.

That means basically you don't finish any games?

Where did he say that?

 

[Cilla]

I don't understand the hate towards trophies. If you don't enjoy them that's perfectly fine but you don't need to insult people who do.

I never see people who like them insulting people who don't.

People just like different things and that's good!

 

[DeepEnigma]

Trophy hunting is a way of playing a game lots of people enjoy, myself included. I like the process and feeling of completing certain events to earn trophies just as much as I like 'playing' the game.

So when I see this game has 5 trophies I assume that it will be a game that doesn't require collecting, doing certain things a certain way, or requiring any type of planning and execution. You just play. For me, that isn't that appealing. I would be just as happy watching someone do a lets play on this.

The new era of gamer has spawned.

 

[Consumer]

So, after reading the first page am I safe to assume this whole thread is people shaming trophies/achievements even tho they're an honest part of modern gaming and has just as much of a point as any other aspect of a game but people refuse to believe so cause they were only introduced 10 years ago?

People are denying it, but yes, it's just old men yelling at clouds because they don't understand the millennial generation. For every post defending trophies, there's ~30 shitting on them. This thread has devolved into a disgusting circlejerk with everyone just taking the piss, attacking trophy hunting both blatantly and subtly. I want to abandon this tainted thread, but it's such a horrible sight that I feel compelled to watch it burn.

Spoiler

NeoGAF: Your Favourite Thing Sucks (except Soulsborne)

People need to grow the fuck up and get off their high horse; gaming as a whole is a pathetic waste of time, merely serving as a distraction until we die. Every hobby is pointless unless you derive pleasure from them, which is why this thread is so hilariously hypocritical. Everyone here sees trophy hunting as an artificial, superficial, and pointless hobby, and it makes them angry & insecure because it reflects the true nature of gaming as a whole. It makes me sad that I must not only argue with people that're against gaming, but also with fellow gamers that're against trophy hunting. Gaming has such a shitty fanbase.

 

[kobu]

crazy how some of you are calling that guy sad because he plays games for trophies.
are you guys calling people who collect amiibos but don't even own a wiiu/3ds sad as well?

 

[Meia]

crazy how some of you are calling that guy sad because he plays games for trophies.
are you guys calling people who collect amiibos but don't even own a wiiu/3ds sad as well?

It's sad because you SHOULD be getting emotionally attached or interested in a game to a point where hours pass by without noticing, all the while greatly enjoying yourself. It's what a hobby/entertainment is.


Playing a game has the goal of working towards the end of it. Some people are actually saying that they CAN enjoy this prospect, but only if the game recognizes this every little bit(by taking you out of the game by popping up an indicator in game) in giving you imaginary points. It's nonsense. In that way, I'm saying it's crazy that the main reason someone wouldn't own a 3DS/Wii U is because there isn't an achievement system.

 

[lasrmountedmoai]

Trophy hunting is a way of playing a game lots of people enjoy, myself included. I like the process and feeling of completing certain events to earn trophies just as much as I like 'playing' the game.

So when I see this game has 5 trophies I assume that it will be a game that doesn't require collecting, doing certain things a certain way, or requiring any type of planning and execution. You just play. For me, that isn't that appealing. I would be just as happy watching someone do a lets play on this.

So what you're saying is that you play games for the metagame and not the game itself... That's fine, and there are certainly games out there that are built to your standard, but a game like this was designed for you to experience through play. You don't feel like you're missing anything simply watching it as a movie, or worse, with a narrator talking through the experience?

 

[lasrmountedmoai]

People are denying it, but yes, it's just old men yelling at clouds because they don't understand the millennial generation. For every post defending trophies, there's ~30 shitting on them. This thread has devolved into a disgusting circlejerk with everyone just taking the piss, attacking trophy hunting both blatantly and subtly. I want to abandon this tainted thread, but it's such a horrible sight that I feel compelled to watch it burn.

Spoiler

NeoGAF: Your Favourite Thing Sucks (except Soulsborne)

People need to grow the fuck up and get off their high horse; gaming as a whole is a pathetic waste of time, merely serving as a distraction until we die. Every hobby is pointless unless you derive pleasure from them, which is why this thread is so hilariously hypocritical. Everyone here sees trophy hunting as an artificial, superficial, and pointless hobby, and it makes them angry & insecure because it reflects the true nature of gaming as a whole. It makes me sad that I must not only argue with people that're against gaming, but also with fellow gamers that're against trophy hunting. Gaming has such a shitty fanbase.

There are plenty of drive-by trolls in this thread, but there's also some sound discussion around what the value of trophies are or should be. Claiming its a generational thing is interesting, although I wouldn't necessarily feel good about ascribing a cultural norm myself or my generation a behavior based literally on a design to draw people in by exploiting the same human weakness that drives people to gambling, but that's just me.

What trophy hunters are upset about in this thread is that people disagree with them, and are responding with as much venom as anyone else.

In as much as any kind of recreational media has value or doesn't, I can't disagree. They are tools we use to distract ourselves, but we also use them to better ourselves, see things through the eyes of others, compete etc. I like to play games, I admit that I prefer narratives to collectathons or multiplayer games, so I'm drawn to firewatch. But for someone to see the hype about a game, get hyped, and reconsider buying it because it doesn't have trophies really bums me out, because it says that person is unwilling to see the potential in games for what is, as you say, a totally arbitrary and pointless thing.

 

[kobu]

It's sad because you SHOULD be getting emotionally attached or interested in a game to a point where hours pass by without noticing, all the while greatly enjoying yourself. It's what a hobby/entertainment is.


Playing a game has the goal of working towards the end of it. Some people are actually saying that they CAN enjoy this prospect, but only if the game recognizes this every little bit(by taking you out of the game by popping up an indicator in game) in giving you imaginary points. It's nonsense. In that way, I'm saying it's crazy that the main reason someone wouldn't own a 3DS/Wii U is because there isn't an achievement system.

people enjoy video games for different reasons. you might like persona 4 for the story and someone else might like it because they thought it had a fun trophy list. why is that so hard for people to wrap their heads around?
i'm starting to see this weird trend with gamers where they hate the idea of people enjoying or being successful at something they aren't and they call it sad because they're fucking insecure about their own hobby.

 

[Thebeardofknowledge]

This thread got weird as fuck

Looks like it's time to shut it down or hand out bans for all the shit posting going on.

 

[Meia]

people enjoy video games for different reasons. you might like persona 4 for the story and someone else might like it because they thought it had a fun trophy list. why is that so hard for people to wrap their heads around?
i'm starting to see this weird trend with gamers where they hate the idea of people enjoying or being successful at something they aren't and they call it sad because they're fucking insecure about their own hobby.

It's hard to wrap my mind around that a person cannot actually enjoy a game if it doesn't have arbitrary goals to work for that the game itself acknowledges with a notification. I don't hate it, but I find it extremely weird. There were whole generations where achievements just didn't exist. Hell, use Persona 4 as your example, as it was originally a PS2 game before it became a Vita game. Did these people with this opinion never play a game before the Xbox 360 or PS3 came out?



I can understand the idea of it being fun to work for side things. I cannot possibly understand a game being ruined because it didn't acknowledge that you worked towards a side thing.



Let's even go further with this idea. Games sometimes in themselves acknowledge that you went out of your way for something and reward you. Both Persona 3 and 4 do this by giving you something for maxing out all social links for example. However, this didn't reward you a trophy or something you can see out of game like the current points/trophy system does. Does that make it an inferior system capable of ruining your enjoyment?

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

It really isn't. It's just not challenging if there are additional requirements to do something difficult in a game. The style of modern games makes the vast majority of them experience based and requiring little skill. I grew up playing games that were challenging and required me to replay them hundreds of time to beat them. Mainly that was because I was a kid and just not good. But I like the challenge and too much these days games are just simulators that require little skill.

What you're saying is that Firewatch is not the type of game you enjoy in the first place. How would trophies change that?

 

[Replicant]

Both sides are being unreasonable here.

There's nothing wrong with liking Trophies and wanting them. If you don't like them, turn them off. No reason to rob others of their fun.

OTOH, complaining about a game only having 5 Trophies is a bit too much. Especially when it's a small, downloadable game. Let it go, there are other games you can collect Trophies from. If it bothers you that much, next time do some research about the number of Trophies a game has.

 

[cyba89]

people enjoy video games for different reasons. you might like persona 4 for the story and someone else might like it because they thought it had a fun trophy list. why is that so hard for people to wrap their heads around?
i'm starting to see this weird trend with gamers where they hate the idea of people enjoying or being successful at something they aren't and they call it sad because they're fucking insecure about their own hobby.

I understand why people might like to hunt for trophies.
What I don't understand are people who say stuff like "no plat, no buy" or crap like that.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

Both sides are being unreasonable here.

There's nothing wrong with liking Trophies and wanting them. If you don't like them, turn them off. No reason to rob others of their fun.

OTOH, complaining about a game only having 5 Trophies is a bit too much. Especially when it's a small, downloadable game. Let it go, there are other games you can collect Trophies from. If it bothers you that much, next time do some research about the number of Trophies a game has.

Yeah, seems like this has gotten out of hand lol.

I enjoy collecting trophies in games I really like, but I'm not going to pass up a great game if it doesn't have them.

I understand why people might like to hunt for trophies.
What I don't understand are people who say stuff like "no plat, no buy" or crap like that.

People enjoy being able to show off the fact that they 100%'d a game, even though almost no one will ever go through your trophy list. I used to be this way before realizing that no one cares at all. Or maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Joni]

Wow, that's sad.
Maybe you should search for another hobby.



Where did he say that?

There are very many games where just finishing them up earns you the Platinum.

 

[Neuromancer]

Why can't Sony make their Trophy system better for the people who like it? why not make it more "streamlined" so that all games follow the same kind of thought? what I (and other players) want is a more consistent trophy system, where every game has the same rule for trophies. I know that they have a minimum number of "points" developers have to distribute in a game, but this also means they have a maximum. This is why we have games with 5 trophies and games with 50+ trophies. It just feels way to inconsistent, I would much rather prefer a system like back on the X360 where smaller games had to have 500 points and bigger games 1000 points. As it is now games can have anywhere between 5 or 100 trophies on Playstation consoles.

The "rewards" systems aren't hurting anyone, if you don't like them disable them. But please don't come in here and tell people who like them (in one way or another), that they are crazy for liking a reward for an activity in a game. There really is no reason for that.. Many people have already explained why they like the systems, there are lots of reasons why people go for trophies/achievements in games, not everyone has to be a "trophy-hunter" just because they like the system.

I only used Firewatch as a means to display the inconsistency in Sony's trophy system, the game will surely be a great game (I have no doubt about that), but the game also shows how inconsistent the trophy system is.

Did you miss one of the developers of this game posting in your thread with the team's rationale behind the trophies?

I know people have strong feelings about this, but the reality is we made the trophies the way we did because we didn't want the game to declare what is a "collectible" versus what's just a cool thing to stumble upon in the world, or to encourage players to choose one kind of conversation over another, or to try and explore specific areas rather than others, etc., etc. We really did consider just about every possible avenue, and we ended up on the simplest avenue we could think of, not because we don't care or don't think it's important, but because after laying out all the options, we think it makes the most sense for this particular game. Firewatch is a game with a lot of player choice and hidden stuff, but because of the overall vibe, we didn't want the sensation of trophies/achievements putting meta-commentary on top. And there are a number of conditions you have to satisfy for a platinum, and we just didn't end up with one.

It may well be that we're giving up some sales by not having trophies work a certain way, but on the other hand, we think that the design of trophies/achievements is a part of the game design itself and so it's not really appropriate to try and min/max sales by way of trying to guess the ideal way to incentivize people to buy the game for trophy-related reasons. The reality is, there are infinite reasons someone might buy or not buy your game, and you can't try and chase them all down; you just try and make the best game, and hope you do a good enough job marketing it that a bunch of people will know it exists and buy it if they think it looks compelling.

For what it's worth, I would love to make the kind of game some time that really takes advantage of the sorts of overlapping mechanical goals that trophies and achievements are suited for. I love that kind of game. It's just not what Firewatch is.

Edit: I also have to again state that people are free to disagree with any design choice we make (although preferably that's after playing the game). I just want to make clear that whether or not we're right or wrong about any given decision, they are all made in good faith, not out of obliviousness or financial idiocy.

I don't know about you but his explanation seems incredibly reasonable to me.

 

[Mega]

I understand why people might like to hunt for trophies.
What I don't understand are people who say stuff like "no plat, no buy" or crap like that.

I enjoy collecting trophies in games I really like, but I'm not going to pass up a great game if it doesn't have them.

Precisely. It's reasonable for some of us to think that's absurd and that the people who say "not enough trophies, pass!" are into video games for terrible reasons.

 

[cyba89]

There are very many games where just finishing them up earns you the Platinum.

And a lot more where that's not the case.