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[Frozenprince]

Why the fuck did you bring WW in this mess ? women and men from all races will watch the same movie with the same scenes everywhere, what they wanted to do in that fucking festival was showing the first 20 minutes to men and only the half for white girls...

Uh.

Wut.

 

[excelsiorlef]

If it wasn't a step back in history this thread wouldnt have been posted at all. It would have just been "Another day in paris"

Even more so when the fact a socialist mayor of the city has to come out and condemn it. This isnt how the world works now, and any attempt to move back will be faced with resistance and outrage.

We won't win like this.

Move back where?

This isn't comparable to reasons of the past...

And this thread existing isn't really a marker I'd use... we've had threads about protesters blocking traffic with almost identical arguments about how we won't win that way...

 

[WaterAstro]

I think it's better to have inclusion of like-minded Caucasians because racism requires both sides to work together.

My feelings are the same with sexism. I don't think having women only groups or organizations helps because in order for men to understand and accept equality is to see men working with women at an equal opportunity basis. I certainly understand the sentiment, but the solution needs both sides to work together rather than having an extreme one-sided protest.

 

[Frozenprince]

My man, we ain't "moving back there".

We still there. We ain't left yet.

 

[Enzom21]

"You know damn well you didn't give two fucks about segregation until some black people excluded others." This kind of implies it no? Yet you know zero about me and just assume this. I have to think back to time to discussions I've had on segregation to make you feel better? Why do you care so much if I've argued about segregation before? I fail to see the relevance, you're the only person obsessing over that.

And I had no idea that was even a thing, but again, why is it relevant? Why do you keep asking these odd questions? To try and catch me out?

No it doesn't imply it. If I had wanted to call you a racist I would have done so.
Have you had discussions about segregation before? It is relevant because if this is the first time, segregation is not the issue. It's who's doing the segregation that's bothering you.

"Catch you out"? Do you have issue with the Wonder Woman screening?

 

[Hux1ey]

Correct. Edit: Well, partly correct. Again, white people and anti-SJWs.

If you are aware that there are different levels of segregation, surely you should realize why it would be less kosher for white people to have a festival on white empowerment (<-- that right there is your clue) where blacks wouldn't be able to freely attend most if any of the event.

Yup white privilege still exists and white nationalists are idiots. I said before that I have zero problem with minorities getting together and holding events but blocking off people due to their race just feels very wrong.

 

[Charamiwa]

I love those threads where people gather to explain to us how a society based on secularism is dumb and French laws aren't worth following.

 

[Captin Quacker]

I think it's better to have inclusion of like-minded Caucasians because racism requires both sides to work together.

My feelings are the same with sexism. I don't think having women only groups or organizations helps because in order for men to understand and accept equality is to see men working with women at an equal opportunity basis. I certainly understand the sentiment, but the solution needs both sides to work together rather than having an extreme one-sided protest.

Why is the side that's been oppress have to extend the olive branch?

Why should women who've been harassed or assaulted by men have to do the leg work to help them understand?

 

[Nepenthe]

Yup white privilege still exists and white nationalists are idiots. I said before that I have zero problem with minorities getting together and holding events but blocking off people due to their race just feels very wrong.

Then what do you suggest in cases like royalan's where white people effectively hijack open clubs and meets about the advancement of black causes because the subject matter offends them?


Limit attendance? Segregation.

Limit speaking? Violation of free speech.

Make it private? Special snowflakes who can't handle debate.



What is the solution to concern trolling and white centrism?

 

[Mesousa]

Move back where?

This isn't comparable to reasons of the past...

And this thread existing isn't really a marker I'd use... we've had threads about blocking traffic with almost identical arguments about how we won't win that way...

Move back to a world where such speech is acceptable. We cant allow it to go to this.

Those threads, about traffic, are simply about people not viewing history accurately. Success has always come from being an inconvenience and challenging the status quo. There is no proof of any such success coming from shutting out difference races from discussion. In fact, the opposite can argued given the success throughout history of Mulattos(From Ogé to Douglass to Obama) in being a force of positive change in the black community.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I love those threads where people gather to explain to us how a society based on secularism is dumb and French laws aren't worth following.

What threads are you reading?

 

[HelloMeow]

Then what do you suggest in cases like royalan's where white people effectively hijack open clubs and meets about the advancement of black causes because the subject matter offends them?


Limit attendance? Segregation.

Limit speaking? Violation of free speech.

Make it private? Special snowflakes who can't handle debate.



What is the solution to concern trolling and white centrism?

Ban people based on their behavior instead of the color of their skin?

 

[Nepenthe]

Ban people based on their behavior instead of the color of their skin?

And what happens when it's mainly if not exclusively white people getting banned? Furthermore, what if a group doesn't want to concern itself with moderating the issue in the first place because there are bigger issues to deal with?

 

[KingV]

Yeah. Fuck those people, we're socialized to placate racists every waking moment. Having a space where folk don't have to do that seems necessary. And again, not disagreeing with the public space angle. I'm only interested in the reactionaryism. Appealing to those peoples sensibilities nets marginalized people nothing.

Morally, I think the idea is fine. I dot particularly like being excluded, but I have little interest in being the only white guy in the room for a African Feminist's conference anyway. And I understand why marginalized groups might want to have their own space to get together for various things.

I also understand that 10% of the country is dedicated to subverting any message of diversity and understanding to support white supremacy and 30% of the country is too dumb to understand the difference.

 

[deli2000]

Ban people based on their behavior instead of the color of their skin?

Then people will accuse you of trying to suppress free speech. Because that's the reality of organizing these things. We can't win. There will never be an event like this that appeases the white majority, no matter how soft and inviting we make it.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

This really has nothing to do with "inclusiveness" and more about politics.

First, white people aren't banned from attending, there's just four specific activities:

-One for black women
-One for black people
-One for people of colour
-One for everyone

The """"""segregated"""""" places are held in private places while the other is held in a public space.

Furthermore the city of Paris is already funding places where some people based on gender aren't allowed to go in (a "maison des femmes" where women can go and be protected from abusive men). So championing inclusiveness isn't a proper way to condemn this when your funding places which ban people based on gender.

Let's add the fact that the LICRA and SOS Racisme are joke organisation for a lot of people and that this whole thing was started by the french equivalent of Breitbart and 4chan and I'll let you fill in the rest.

I love those threads where people gather to explain to us how a society based on secularism is dumb and French laws aren't worth following.

This doesn't really have a lot to do with our laws though.

 

[Alx]

And what happens when it's mainly if not exclusively white people getting banned?

What happens indeed ? Would you conclude that when mainly/only white people behave badly, then all white people should be banned ?

Then people will accuse you of trying to suppress free speech.

"Free speech" is different in France than in the US. Racist, homophobic and sexist speech is banned everywhere, all the time. The whole country is a safe space already, and the rule applies to everybody.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Really easy way to get publicity. Everyone knows it's wrong to ban someone of colour from anything. So it's an easy bait.

Anyone agreeing with the ban, that's racist. Anyone not agreeing, culturally incentive to that ethnics groups background.

Either way you come off a bigot, when it's obvious the think you should be getting annoyed at is the organisers playing off of races for publicity.

The worst thing about this? It justifies the racists views. Organisers should be disgraced.

 

[Sianos]

Ban people based on their behavior instead of the color of their skin?

Problem is, they were "just asking questions". Because they will act like their stupid question on why there isn't a white history month or other asinine attempt to be clever - that's been done a thousand times - is deeply personal to them as they fawn to the onlookers.

And then come the accusations of being a "safe space snowflake", since priveleged people can't seem to empathize with what it feels like when hatred of you and people like you is considered a legitimate "belief" that must be protected.

 

[Frozenprince]

Really easy way to get publicity. Everyone knows it's wrong to ban someone of colour from anything. So it's an easy bait.

Anyone agreeing with the ban, that's racist. Anyone not agreeing, culturally incentive to that ethnics groups background.

Either way you come off a bigot, when it's obvious the think you should be getting annoyed at is the organisers playing off of races for publicity.

The worst thing about this? It justifies the racists views. Organisers should be disgraced.

No it doesn't.

NOTHING justifies a racist.

 

[deli2000]

What happens indeed ? Would you conclude that when mainly/only white people behave badly, then all white people should be banned ?



"Free speech" is different in France than in the US. Racist, homophobic and sexist speech is banned everywhere, all the time. The whole country is a safe space already, and the rule applies to everybody.

Hate speech laws apply in the UK too and you still get free speech zealots everywhere.

 

[Rest]

The mayor's right, you don't combat racism with racism or sexism with sexism.

 

[caliph95]

No it doesn't.

NOTHING justifies a racist.

Don't he's saying it does just that it will to them

 

[KarneeKarnay]

No it doesn't.

NOTHING justifies a racist.

If you ask for segregation, or demand it, via the rules of the efforts of those in charge, you are justifying racist views. That races should be segregated.

 

[Funyarinpa]

That is essentially what i'm doing, yeah. We must accept that to some ends the premise of including all races may be such an impediment that no progress is made. Whether to that end we may rethink what "inclusive" means in any given context, that is likely true as well.

Your point of historical discrimination is not quite as specific as what i was describing, i was more pointing to the effects of historical discrimination, namely the dynamics of hierarchies in groups, specifically the perception that the "white people" group have accrued through historical discrimination a privilege that portrays them as hierarchically higher than other racial groups (i.e. black people).

I'm trying to point this out in a way that makes it understandable and applicable in other contexts of privilege (and some which we already take for granted). For example, i think the same is applicable for labor rights. Though i think bosses should be part of the conversation in some higher capacity, i also think laborers should be able to organize and create places of conversation where bosses are not present, because bosses have obviously different interests in the discussion that run against what laborers might want (and e.g. it's perfectly normal for higher ups in companies to exclude their employees from discussions because they are keenly aware that what they want may go against the interests of their employees).

That is in essence what i mean when i say that you can't pretend those hierarchies aren't practiced by racial groups, i don't think it's particularly wrong to say that white people can be expected to have a kind of social behavior that displays their accrued privilege (intentionally or not, racism is also propagated by systemic discrimination which may go unaware to those who benefit from it (this too is something that helps propagate systemic racism because it's inherent immorality is not immediately evident to those it puts in power)), and to say that you simply cannot make spaces where people try to protect themselves from that friction between interests coming from different perceived hierarchies in essence denies that they exist, when in fact they do.

And I am saying that even if systematic racism makes white people inherently immoral about racism (a statement I honestly still find rather absurd even though I clearly see where it comes from), white people (not all of them) have the capability to restrain that and merely observe the discussion in order to learn something. Do white people need to exercise this restraint to be allowed to observe such discussions? I absolutely think so. And yes, few white people would be exercising such restraint.

In your labor rights analogy, I mean to say that some bosses can listen to their employees for the employees' best interest even if they have a socially grafted intent to try to benefit the bosses the most.

How do you expect racial justice movements to gain popular support if you tell white people "You're all inherently racist and cannot see or think beyond that"? Such messages are interpreted as "we don't want you or your help", and that's the sort of bullshit that leads to "third wave feminism lol" or "feminism is all about women over men now, it's lost its original purpose and so I'm not a feminist" and similar bullshit arguments that all mean to say that they lose support for movements that exclude them. This particular point is more a practical matter than a moral one- for every idea born in a PoC-only meeting, ten ignorant white people feel assured that racial justice movements hate white people. Yes, they're misinterpreting it, but that influences their opinion just the same.

As for the "you guys calling this racist in this thread are the reason we need racist meetings" argument, show me the part of the NeoGAF TOS that says all race relations threads are to be treated as a safe-space (in the exclusionary sense this festival tried to achieve) for people of color and are places where others will only be allowed to observe and listen, and I'll gladly do so from now on. I personally view NeoGAF as a forum where all members' voices are heard equally and where opinions are not filtered according to their owner, and so I state my opinions here as a non-POC.

 

[Nepenthe]

What happens indeed ? Would you conclude that when mainly/only white people behave badly, then all white people should be banned ?

No. Just that then the club is inevitably subject to claims of reverse racism which is another thing they have to add to the plate of just functioning properly. This is something minority groups and meets have to take into account when forming in mixed or predominantly white spaces- balancing the belief that inclusion is a moral good with the reality that inclusiveness can and will be easily taken as all-encompassing and thus a means to sabotage the point of the meet, inadvertently or otherwise.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

This really has nothing to do with "inclusiveness" and more about politics.

First, white people aren't banned from attending, there's just four specific activities:

-One for black women
-One for black people
-One for people of colour
-One for everyone

The """"""segregated"""""" places are held in private places while the other is held in a public space.

Furthermore the city of Paris is already funding places where some people based on gender aren't allowed to go in (a "maison des femmes" where women can go and be protected from abusive men). So championing inclusiveness isn't a proper way to condemn this when your funding places which ban people based on gender.

Let's add the fact that the LICRA and SOS Racisme are joke organisation for a lot of people and that this whole thing was started by the french equivalent of Breitbart and 4chan and I'll let you fill in the rest.



This doesn't really have a lot to do with our laws though.

Interesting. Thanks for the info..

 

[HelloMeow]

And what happens when it's mainly if not exclusively white people getting banned? Furthermore, what if a group doesn't want to concern itself with moderating the issue in the first place because there are bigger issues to deal with?

Then you wouldn't be banning them based on the color of their skin.

"ban people based on their behavior" is easier said than done of course, but I don't think not wanting or being able to enforce certain rules is a good excuse for racism.

Then people will accuse you of trying to suppress free speech. Because that's the reality of organizing these things. We can't win. There will never be an event like this that appeases the white majority, no matter how soft and inviting we make it.

I think free speech can have limits and it shouldn't be a requirement in every setting.

 

[Tall4Life]

Y'all calling the organizers racist should watch Dear White People...

 

[Mammoth Jones]

This really has nothing to do with "inclusiveness" and more about politics.

First, white people aren't banned from attending, there's just four specific activities:

-One for black women
-One for black people
-One for people of colour
-One for everyone

The """"""segregated"""""" places are held in private places while the other is held in a public space.

Furthermore the city of Paris is already funding places where some people based on gender aren't allowed to go in (a "maison des femmes" where women can go and be protected from abusive men). So championing inclusiveness isn't a proper way to condemn this when your funding places which ban people based on gender.

Let's add the fact that the LICRA and SOS Racisme are joke organisation for a lot of people and that this whole thing was started by the french equivalent of Breitbart and 4chan and I'll let you fill in the rest.



This doesn't really have a lot to do with our laws though.

Sounds about right. Concern trolling in France by those that resent "the hypocrisy of Black people". If the meeting is private then it's a non issue. Some of our problems gotta be solved by us and discussed by us.

I wish folks that are outraged by this were just as outraged by ALL the segregation the goes on in society against Black people every day.

 

[Alx]

No. Just that then the club is inevitably subject to claims of reverse racism.

Well at least when you ban people for being asses, you have a counter-point when being accused of reverse racism. When you ban people for being white, you don't have that argument, because it is indeed reverse racism (or just plain old racism, there's nothing reversed about it).

 

[Hux1ey]

Then what do you suggest in cases like royalan's where white people effectively hijack open clubs and meets about the advancement of black causes because the subject matter offends them?


Limit attendance? Segregation.

Limit speaking? Violation of free speech.

Make it private? Special snowflakes who can't handle debate.



What is the solution to concern trolling and white centrism?

This shit is complicated, but generalising all white people as trouble makers is not the answer, I'm sure the vast majority go there for the right reasons.

Y'all calling the organizers racist should watch Dear White People...

The IMDB rating put me off a little.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Well at least when you ban people for being asses, you have a counter-point when being accused of reverse racism. When you ban people for being white, you don't have that argument, because it is indeed reverse racism (or just plain old racism, there's nothing reversed about it).

Nothing racist about a group of oppressed people having a private meeting among themselves to have discussions about how to proceed.

No one is being banned. It's concern trolling by people that'd never go even if it were open to them in the first place.

Just hard right wingers bitching saying "see they the real racists!"

 

[Calm waterfall]

Hell yeah ban this. Discrimination on public spaces should never be allowed.

This, this, this.

I attended a PWI, in a racist conservative enclave. It made the need for these spaces that much more important.

France is not the US and the US racial problems are not the same as France. When the fuck are you and others realize that? It´s fucking ridiculous how people on this forum project American issues and make it look like every country have the same cultural and social background or issues as the US.

 

[Hux1ey]

Hell yeah ban this. Discrimination on public spaces should never be allowed.


France is not the US and the US racial problems are not the same as France. When the fuck are you and others realize that? It´s fucking ridiculous how people on this forum project American issues and make it look like every country have the same cultural and social background or issues as the US.

Americans like to do that don't they?

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Y'all calling the organizers racist should watch Dear White People...

I hear that show is racist..

 

[Frozenprince]

Yes, because France doesn't have a long, stories history of racial inequity.

 

[Nepenthe]

France is not the US and the US racial problems are not the same as France. When the fuck are you and others realize that? It´s fucking ridiculous how people on this forum project American issues and make it look like every country have the same cultural and social background or issues as the US.

The differences between each country's racial issues doesn't preclude the need for safe spaces because the point of a safe space is to counteract the effect of social inequality on sensitive conversations. In other words, the moment you admit France has racial issues, you inherently admit the need for French minorities to find temporary reprieve.

 

[CazTGG]

Y'all calling the organizers racist should watch Dear White People...

The movie or the Netflix show?

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Hell yeah ban this. Discrimination on public spaces should never be allowed.


France is not the US and the US racial problems are not the same as France. When the fuck are you and others realize that? It´s fucking ridiculous how people on this forum project American issues and make it look like every country have the same cultural and social background or issues as the US.

There's no discrimination on public spaces happening here though.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Hell yeah ban this. Discrimination on public spaces should never be allowed.


France is not the US and the US racial problems are not the same as France. When the fuck are you and others realize that? It´s fucking ridiculous how people on this forum project American issues and make it look like every country have the same cultural and social background or issues as the US.

Not the same history of racism but a history of racism all the same.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_France

Protip: Black folks catch hell worldwide.

 

[Enzom21]

Sounds about right. Concern trolling in France by those that resent "the hypocrisy of Black people". If the meeting is private then it's a non issue. Some of our problems gotta be solved by us and discussed by us.

I wish folks that are outraged by this were just as outraged by ALL the segregation the goes on in society against Black people every day.

The segregation isn't the issue, who's doing the segregating is the problem.
We wouldn't hear a peep from these people if this was about the continued segregation in public schools.
They're more worried about some event that they wouldn't even attend in the first place.

The IMDB rating put me off a little.

Those god damn white people.

Are you sure it wasn't the title?

 

[Hux1ey]

The segregation isn't the issue, who's doing the segregating is the problem.
We wouldn't hear a peep from these people if this was about the continued segregation in public schools.
They're more worried about some event that they wouldn't even attend in the first place.



Are you sure it wasn't the title?

I think you may have a thing for me.

 

[azyless]

We wouldn't hear a peep from these people if this was about the continued segregation in public schools.

Please elaborate on the racial segregation in public schools in France.

There's no discrimination on public spaces happening here though.

It was the premise of the thread though, and it was clearly what Hidalgo thought as well since she has, since then, declared that if the black and WOC only events were in private spaces it wasn't an issue.

 

[metalslimer]

They shouldn't try and do this on public space but it's amazing how people don't understand why minorities would like to have an event to themselves. Royalan put it better but black people aren't props that have to be the ones to teach white people about their struggle.

But their always tends to be an outcry on stuff like this while the same people remain silent on the systemic discrimination that plagues the globe. And I really don't want to hear about how Europe has progressed past racism because that's just ridiculous.

 

[Enzom21]

I think you may have a thing for me.

Do you have a thing for everyone you've responded to in this thread?
Just because I am commenting on your silly posts doesn't mean you mean anything to me or anyone else.
First the claim about people looking through your post history now this... someone thinks they're more important than they are.

Please elaborate on the racial segregation in public schools in France.

Ah, so for you if the segregation was happening if France, you would care?
Got it.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Please elaborate on the racial segregation in public schools in France.

It was the premise of the thread though, and it was clearly what Hidalgo thought as well since she has, since then, declared that if the black and WOC only events were in private spaces it wasn't an issue.

Funny how she was quick to draw a conclusion on a subject supposedly important for her without actually reviewing the situation.

I wonder why...

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Please elaborate on the racial segregation in public schools in France.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/25130395?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents.

Bonus:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/can-the-french-talk-about-race

Tired of the bullshit that racism is purely an American issue. Or that no one abroad needs to organize to develop solutions.

 

[azyless]

Ah, so for you if the segregation was happening if France, you would care?
Got it.

What ? This is a thread about Paris, France. I'm french. You were implying that people like me who wouldn't be okay with this happening in a public space is weirdly silent on segregation in schools. So I'm asking you what segregation in schools I should be up in arms about, here in France.

 

[Pupperbabysassy]

Why is this an issue? The Gerudo Women did the same thing. Saavooq!!!