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"PS4 is like a 5 years old PC and its really holding developers back"
- Thread starter Vipu
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Heckler456
Banned
Not happening.
Buggy Loop
Member
Of course (?)
What else is to be expected? Reasonable TDP, reasonable price and thermal stability in a 4~7 liter form factor is hard enough as it is. Can't fit a 1080ti + i7 7700k, too expensive, too high TDP, too much heat. Console lagging ~5 years behind is normal.
But EVEN with more power, barely any devs tap into it correctly. Look at Guerrilla games & Naughty dog, look what they have done with the hardware they had? Barely anyone else in the industry can pull that off, not even with the extra juice of PC. Talent has to catch up to hardware and so far this gen, it's been a complete failure for most dev houses. /puts flamecoaton
What else is to be expected? Reasonable TDP, reasonable price and thermal stability in a 4~7 liter form factor is hard enough as it is. Can't fit a 1080ti + i7 7700k, too expensive, too high TDP, too much heat. Console lagging ~5 years behind is normal.
But EVEN with more power, barely any devs tap into it correctly. Look at Guerrilla games & Naughty dog, look what they have done with the hardware they had? Barely anyone else in the industry can pull that off, not even with the extra juice of PC. Talent has to catch up to hardware and so far this gen, it's been a complete failure for most dev houses. /puts flamecoaton
Real_Madrid
Member
You could buy that 'very weak 5 year old PC' for 188 euro in Belgium for a while.
No shit it's not in the same league as a super duper high end PC.
There's a reason why he needs to work with consoles: the majority of the players, who would play such a game, are there and why would that be?
No shit it's not in the same league as a super duper high end PC.
There's a reason why he needs to work with consoles: the majority of the players, who would play such a game, are there and why would that be?
General Lee
Member
Can't wait to get rid of Xbox One and PS4 as the baseline spec. As a mostly PC gamer I'm not really that interested in how graphically intensive console games can get, but I do care about how the lack of CPU power influences game design. With more CPU resources we could have so much richer worlds.
That said, I'm fine with things as they are. Having the spec baseline be above $500 would mean devs would still make 30 FPS titles at that level, and getting to 4K60 would be near impossible even for highest end PC's.
That said, I'm fine with things as they are. Having the spec baseline be above $500 would mean devs would still make 30 FPS titles at that level, and getting to 4K60 would be near impossible even for highest end PC's.
Where is the news? We knew that already back in 2013 when these console launched, a netbook cpu like the AMD Jaguar and a custom AMD Radeon 7750 were already outdated and weak compared to a 2013 avarage gaming PCs, which already had GTX 780/770 and Radeon r9 290x and 290 with almost double performances of PS4/XB1 for under 250$
Yes, that is always the nature of consoles, as a baseline that are pretty outdated by the time they are replaced.
What exactly is this developer expecting and why is that sentiment so outrageous to him?
Does he really expect developers to start their game pipelines over again from scratch with high end PC hardware?
What exactly is this developer expecting and why is that sentiment so outrageous to him?
Does he really expect developers to start their game pipelines over again from scratch with high end PC hardware?
Insane Metal
Gold Member
No shit, Sherlock.
Astral Dog
Member
He is going to love the Switch
not that it matters of course 
Mikey Jr.
Member
Obviously.
chrominance
Member
I think the crucial phrase that quote turns on is "all different games." What will eventually sell a new console generation, besides "it's the new console, buy the new console," is what those different games are. In other words, what does the additional power (and its associated price) grant me? Is it improved graphics? Besides 4K and HDR, do we need a lot more right now? If it's not improved graphics, what else gets better? If incremental upgrades aren't enough, what's the revolutionary new thing (be it hardware, game genre, etc.) that convinces people to upgrade? Is VR that thing yet?
"The PS4 is holding us back because we could do this crazy new game with tons of stuff you've never done before in a game" is an entirely different proposition than "The PS4 is holding us back because we could have, like, 8K."
"The PS4 is holding us back because we could do this crazy new game with tons of stuff you've never done before in a game" is an entirely different proposition than "The PS4 is holding us back because we could have, like, 8K."
Fredrik
Member
What do you think will happen when next gen arrives? Graphics, physics, demolition, A.I, number of characters on screen, hair and fur, water, etc. Everything could be better if the hardware was better.
I kind of like it that consoles hold PC gaming back though because otherwise games would run at 30fps on PC too without downscaling stuff. 60+ fps with Ultra graphics is nice.
TyMiles2012
Member
Realistically, yea, it's not happening. I know the upgrade route is what Xbox wants to do to ensure backwards compatibility permanently, Nintendo might do the same due to accessories making the system very modular, but I don't think Sony isn't going to go that route. Who knows. We're definitely in a weird spot for the industry.
Sad Affleck
Member
A couple of years ago an upgraded iterative console release would sound just as far-fetched. I believe it will happen really soon.
He is going to love the Switchnot that it matters of course
Switch is different, as a portable device it's pretty powerful, and even though it could be better there is the fact that Nintendo, unlike Sony and Microsoft, doesn't care about being the most powerful console or showcasing great graphics
Like what? Genuinely curious.
DAHGAMING
Member
The greatest
I don't understand the sentiment. Isn't the lowest common denominator in "next gen" still the OG X1? Found the game interesting but am not keeping track this is a MS exclusive right? If so it still has to play on OG X1 so why bring up PS4 when it's not even coming to the system? The better argument for why it doesn't look like Horizon, Uncharted, etc. should have been an easy answer. We are pushing 2 individual scenes with their own effects, etc. at that graphical fidelity.
My man, that was sarcasm.
While I agree with it, I still don't understand why he said it. Like why stir the pot when there's an even less powerful console that they HAVE to build for within the same ecosystem. Makes no sense to me.
Real_Madrid
Member
It's the same thing with every generation. The PS5 will have a budget CPU for that time and so will the PS6 etc. You cannot make a 400 dollar gaming box, with a high end CPU.
Raylan Targaryen
Member
That's fine. Budgets are already out of control, games look fine as it is.
If they weren't making games for 5 year old PCs we would be stuck with nonexistent games like Star Citizen
If they weren't making games for 5 year old PCs we would be stuck with nonexistent games like Star Citizen
nycgamer4ever
Member
My gpu alone in my PC is 9 teraflops, your PC is holding developers back.
/s and J/K
This article is terribly written and doesn't even make sense. Developers have to develop with the lowest specs in mind and that is the base Xbox and Ps4. Sure they have to do more work but it's not like multiplatform games look exactly the same on consoles and PC. It's also not like the games on Pro and Xbox Box X looks terrible. Hell still pretty amazed at the IQ in Horizon ZD compared to games on my pc maxed out.
I'm kinda of wondering why this is even an article to start with....this is common knowledge, and the entire point of console generations. The iterative cycle as far as i know doesn't change that. Devs are still going to want to have a new baseline eventually, and that's when a new gen starts.
Yeah, a next gen Zen CPU, GDDR6 and Navi GPU in a hypothetical PS5 are going to be able to do things XB1 and PS4 can't, no shit
Yeah, a next gen Zen CPU, GDDR6 and Navi GPU in a hypothetical PS5 are going to be able to do things XB1 and PS4 can't, no shit
jonscrambler
Member
yes we know
My two cents: consoles HISTORICALLY give their best at the end of their life cycle
Could you imagine HORIZON two years ago running on base Ps4? YES? IDontbelieveyou.gif
Could you imagine TODAY how gorgeous will be TLOU2? Yes? sameasabove.jpg
Truth is: ps4 best has yet to come and will surely come.
Hope Ps5 will NOT arrive before 2020 or I can see some great ps4-designed games moved to Ps5 and run like ass because not optimized for the new platform (and judged underperforming compared to the new powerful hardware)
Could you imagine HORIZON two years ago running on base Ps4? YES? IDontbelieveyou.gif
Could you imagine TODAY how gorgeous will be TLOU2? Yes? sameasabove.jpg
Truth is: ps4 best has yet to come and will surely come.
Hope Ps5 will NOT arrive before 2020 or I can see some great ps4-designed games moved to Ps5 and run like ass because not optimized for the new platform (and judged underperforming compared to the new powerful hardware)
Real_Madrid
Member
Yup, exactly what I thought. No one is forcing him to develop games on these ancient torture machines.
If he wants to develop a game for 980ti or better graphics cards and have a blast with his new genres, good for him.
They don't have to. They can stfu, develop for high spec pc, and sell 2 copies. What? You like making money off of sales? Ok then quit whining and develop for what's available.
thelastword
Banned
Star Citizen is a niche game at best and you don't need a TitanXp to run Star Citizen....What's ironic about making such a statement is that you would have to show me a game like Crytek's Hunt, a game on the level of Uncharted, GOW, Horizon, 1886 or Killzone Shadowfall.....But this dev has worked on Brothers and now "A way out".....There's no way you can convince me the consoles are limiting what these guys can do....It's like the Super Lucky devs saying they're being held back by consoles....
When these devs can put a game out that's the best looking, have the best animations and physics on these platforms then they will have a right to make such a statement...
They're certainly not at the SWWS level, neither are they close to...
Crytek- Crysis
Valve - Halflife2
ID- Doom 3
...in the PC space. All these games were revolutionary as it relates to tech on release. I don't see how a developer that is not known for making big budget games is making such a statement..They're an indie dev for crying out loud. Their focus should be to land their game on tablets, Switch etc...meaning platforms even below PS4 spec...
THIS JUST IN: Water is wet!!!!!
"Engadget reports water stays colder in the refrigerator, but the outside temperature is holding it back."
Man this guy doesn't seem to understand the price point that these consoles have to sell for. I believe that limitations make developers come up with boundary pushing games for the tech.
I mean Uncharted 4 being as detailed as it is to run on a base Ps4? Limitations can have also lead to incredible optimization on weaker hardware.
Sure it would be great to have a killer system with bells and whistles but that isn't feasible st price point and accessibility.
"Engadget reports water stays colder in the refrigerator, but the outside temperature is holding it back."
Man this guy doesn't seem to understand the price point that these consoles have to sell for. I believe that limitations make developers come up with boundary pushing games for the tech.
I mean Uncharted 4 being as detailed as it is to run on a base Ps4? Limitations can have also lead to incredible optimization on weaker hardware.
Sure it would be great to have a killer system with bells and whistles but that isn't feasible st price point and accessibility.
LordOfChaos
Member
Surprising about no one. It was the most powerful console at launch, but the GPU was still around a midrange card even at launch, and the CPUs are lower end than you can get in most full form desktops (or non-super-budget laptops)
That said, I don't feel we're at the painful end of the 7th gens life where it's really strangling things. It's only at the midway point. Staying on it till 2019 would be fine by me. Any further than that though and it would likely start to feel as strangling as the late 7G.
Assuming that's so, that would be easier to attain for other devs with more powerful consoles, the devs commentary was about raw power and not developer talent.
That said, I don't feel we're at the painful end of the 7th gens life where it's really strangling things. It's only at the midway point. Staying on it till 2019 would be fine by me. Any further than that though and it would likely start to feel as strangling as the late 7G.
Assuming that's so, that would be easier to attain for other devs with more powerful consoles, the devs commentary was about raw power and not developer talent.
After 8 pages of discussion it's pretty obvious why? Fun! What's Gaf without controversy.
While the PS4 does hold back the PC, the Xbox One does as well, they both have shitty CPU's.
That said, the entire thing is moot because the PC doesn't have an owner that will fund games for it so no company is going to take full advantage of it either way. PC just has to wait for the other consoles.
Star Citizen is an exception and they have a crazy funding scheme.
That said, the entire thing is moot because the PC doesn't have an owner that will fund games for it so no company is going to take full advantage of it either way. PC just has to wait for the other consoles.
Star Citizen is an exception and they have a crazy funding scheme.
I wish they'd have specifically called out the CPU. We'll just have bottlenecked consoles running at 30fps forever.
NOW, on the other hand, for what the PS4 does, and costs, it (and the xbox one) are amazing little pieces of tech.
On the other OTHER hand, even at launch they weren't really thought to be powerhouses like their previous versions were. They were budget gaming PC's at launch.
If they'd stop aiming for 4K, and focus on other advancements (frame rate), next gen they could make something like a Ryzen 1400 / Rx580 equivalent fairly cheaply (this is like 2 years from now Im talking) and it would be an awesome performer.
NOW, on the other hand, for what the PS4 does, and costs, it (and the xbox one) are amazing little pieces of tech.
On the other OTHER hand, even at launch they weren't really thought to be powerhouses like their previous versions were. They were budget gaming PC's at launch.
If they'd stop aiming for 4K, and focus on other advancements (frame rate), next gen they could make something like a Ryzen 1400 / Rx580 equivalent fairly cheaply (this is like 2 years from now Im talking) and it would be an awesome performer.
LOL
Muppet of a Man
Member
This is dumb. Consoles are good because most people just want the thing to be cheap, work instantly, have a relatively simple interface, and have good enough production values without having to incessantly upgrade their hardware. Having a 5 to 7 year lifecycle has always been the case and the technology in the console is always antiquated by the end of it. That's part of the cost benefit trade-off of the paradigm of consoles. At least Sony and MS are providing mid gen options for the hardcore to get better performance and image quality this gen.
Ardenyal
Member
Where have you been the last few years?
Astral Dog
Member
Yeah but imagine if Switch even had the chance of becoming the new baseline, these developers would complain ten times more
SiteSeer
Member
exactly. one of the pluses of developing on consoles for companies is that the hardware is static and all users can all run your software. once you complete a game you have a potential audience of millions. along with less work to build assets for low, mid, high, ultra tier hardware.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Both consoles have GPUs that, with or without being in a closed environment, are much better than both of those. I guess it comes down to your definition of much better, but they are indeed superior in a variety of important ways. For one, they're much better in terms of memory bandwidth efficiency. They're also superior in other important ways under the hood.
Wishmaster92
Member
Hate to hear what he thinks about the xbone or nintendo switch?? I would love to see how a game developed from the ground up for the ps4 pro running at native 1080p would look like though.
thelastword
Banned
NO console has held a PC back ever. The PC is a free platform, anyone who wants to develop for it can. They choose not to because it's not always viable for them.
Stormblessed
Member
I'd be happy with games that looked like late PS2 titles so long as the remaining power was being used to facilitate something interesting, but it seems like devs would prefer ballooning budgets and encouraging publishers to be risk averse if it means getting that step closer to photorealism.
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