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[SmokSmog]

Lol Nvidia did the same double tflop thing with Ampere

Not the same, different architecture, additional FP32 on Ampere/Ada are actually usable.

RTX 2000 SM = 64 Int32 + 64 FP32
Ampere SM = 64 Int32/FP32 + 64 FP32

It can switch to Int or FP if needed.

It was something around 30% boost to performance per SM if I'm correct.

Games are 25-35% Int32 and rest FP32 operations if I'm correct again.

 

[rkofan87]

There's literally zero games out right now or coming in the near future I would consider buying a PS5 Pro for.

all old and new ps5 games at 4k 60fps easy buy for me.

 

[SlimySnake]

63% more effective FP32 power after 4 years. PS4 Pro had 120% gain after 3 years? You can see the semiconductor industry stagnation, it's harder and harder to go denser with new nodes.

Yeah they are running into tdp limits here. Ps5 already hits 230 watts at times. Ps4 would top out at 150 watts. So it’s not like they are not trying, but consoles have to be small, they need to have cpus and gpus packed together dang they need to fit in a tidy console tdp budget.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the ps6 tops out at 30 tflops. Only a 3x upgrade in raw performance.

 

[rkofan87]

Fuck ray tracing, 60 FPS without blurry graphics, looking at you FF7 and Hogwarts, is all I need.

4k 60 lets goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bitbydeath]

That’s complete nonsense.

Which part is incorrect?

 

[SlimySnake]

PC’s require 40TF to reach 8K, this console reaches 8K with help from PSSR, seems like it is much closer to 33TF than you’re thinking, or there’s some super secret sauce if your stuck on it must be 17TF.

Dont do this. Read up on AMDs new tflops terminology and look up rdna 3 benchmarks. Or just listen to people in the know.

 

[SmokSmog]

SlimySnake
Also they need to fit GPU + CPU + I/O on N4 300mm2 or less.

 

[bitbydeath]

Dont do this. Read up on AMDs new tflops terminology and look up rdna 3 benchmarks. Or just listen to people in the know.

Which part are you doubting?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Not the same, different architecture, additional FP32 on Ampere/Ada are actually usable.

RTX 2000 SM = 64 Int32 + 64 FP32
Ampere SM = 64 Int32/FP32 + 64 FP32

It can switch to Int or FP if needed.

It was something around 30% boost to performance per SM if I'm correct.

Games are 25-35% Int32 and rest FP32 operations if I'm correct again.

In certain applications they're usable, just like with RNDA 3.

 

[SlimySnake]

Which part are you doubting?

33 tflops. Read up on this.

 

[Gaiff]

Which part is incorrect?

All of it.

 

[RoadHazard]

3x the raw GPU compute but only 45% faster rendering? Can anyone explain to me how that works?

And what about CPU? Quite a few PS5 games can't hit a consistent 60fps even with potato image quality because they're CPU limited, so if there's no upgrade on that front we're still fucked.

 

[winjer]

It is basically just a classic AMD knowing that it cannot compete with Nvidia right now, trying to use PR. Just like those CDN TFlops were not RDNA TFlops or something. Now it is another one, while Nvidia will just release some new card next year that will obliterate AMD and increase market share even more I remember those memes from i3-i7 era where Intel was getting better performance while AMD was trying to throw more cores just to sell the idea that more cores > better CPU. And AMD doing that right now with GPU.

LOL. NVidia did the same thing with Ada Lovelace's dual-issued instructions.
Just look at the presentation of the 4090, where nvidia announced it has 83 TFLOPS of shader compute. Compared to the 3090's 35.58 TFLOPS.
But then look at performance and the 4090 is only 50% faster.

 

[Hunnybun]

How big of screen are tou going to need to have to notice 8k (65+)? Would any desktop monitor (27/32") be able to noticly see 8k. I guess it comes back to 1440p to 4k scenario. I checked out the 8k tvs at Best Buy and the paint demo look the same to me on 4k/8k

It's tricky isn't it because of all the different scenarios, but I find 4k at normalish viewing distances to be wasted on less than 65".

Maybe above 75" you'd be starting to say 4k is becoming a necessity.

I think you'd be looking at bigger than 100" before you even noticed 8k, let alone find it genuinely beneficial.

It seems like a totally impractical technology to me.

 

[NickFire]

3x the raw GPU compute but only 45% faster rendering? Can anyone explain to me how that works?

And what about CPU? Quite a few PS5 games can't hit a consistent 60fps even with potato image quality because they're CPU limited, so if there's no upgrade on that front we're still fucked.

Is there really any doubt they will be releasing an upgraded PS5 that can push 4K at better frames and increase resolution for games that have 120 options?

I don’t think so. And if we keep expectations in check (this is not a new generation and there won’t be anything the base model can’t play) there’s nothing to worry much about IMO.

 

[bitbydeath]

33 tflops. Read up on this.

So you’re doubting it can do 8K or you think 17TF is enough for it?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Was Zen2 confirmed?
Zen2 was rumored for awhile now.
I don't see it mentioned here.

It was not confirmed, but none of the rumours nor the data in the leaked specs makes me think that Sony invested money to boost performance by switching the custom Zen 2 cores AMD and Sony delivered to similarly custom Zen 4c cores.

 

[Fake]

Tom Henderson is never wrong.

Is the only leaker at the moment I 100% trust.

His sources are very trusted.

 

[Gaiff]

Is the only leaker at the moment I 100% trust.

His sources are very trusted.

And despite how much I hate his takes, Jason Schreier is really solid too.

 

[Gaiff]

So you’re doubting it can do 8K or you think 17TF is enough for it?

Dude, why do you keep going on about 8K? It's an output resolution. It means nothing in a vacuum.

Know what that is? This is the spec sheet for the RTX 3050. It can do 8K. Wow! Surely, it's an awesome super-duper card, much better than the 2080 Ti which tops out at 5K...except it's not. NVIDIA advertised 8K back with the 3090 and got laughed at. RTX cards can all do 8K...with DLSS Ultra Performance that upscales from 1440p.

8K without knowing the game is completely meaningless. What we do know for a fact is that the PS5 Pro will NOT be a serious 8K gaming machine. Nothing on the market is. Not the 4090, not the 7900 XTX. Nothing. You don't "need" 40 TFLOPs for 8K. You only need a video card that supports the resolution and every card since 2020 is able to.

 

[Fake]

And despite how much I hate his takes, Jason Schreier is really solid too.

I never doubt Jason leaks/article because their sources are solid. Its just he is a shit person, but unlike him I can distinguish/separate his as terrible human being vs what his do at work.

But unlike him, Tom is not only a good person, but also have trusted sources.

 

[ThisIsMyDog]

with DLSS Ultra Performance that upscales from 720p.

DLSS Ultra Performence at 8K upscales from 1440p

 

[Gaiff]

DLSS Ultra Performence at 8K upscales from 1440p

You're right. It's 4K that upscales from 720p.

 

[Loxus]

It was not confirmed, but none of the rumours nor the data in the leaked specs makes me think that Sony invested money to boost performance by switching the custom Zen 2 cores AMD and Sony delivered to similarly custom Zen 4c cores.

With PS5, Sony invested in the IO Complex and Tempest Engine, but leaks never mention them.

Right now, we don't know the CPU or GPU architecture. Tom Henderson would have confirmed it by now.

 

[bitbydeath]

Dude, why do you keep going on about 8K? It's an output resolution. It means nothing in a vacuum.

Know what that is? This is the spec sheet for the RTX 3050. It can do 8K. Wow! Surely, it's an awesome super-duper card, much better than the 2080 Ti which tops out at 5K...except it's not. NVIDIA advertised 8K back with the 3090 and got laughed at. RTX cards can all do 8K...with DLSS Ultra Performance that upscales from 720p.

8K without knowing the game is completely meaningless. What we do know for a fact is that the PS5 Pro will NOT be a serious 8K gaming machine. Nothing on the market is. Not the 4090, not the 7900 XTX. Nothing. You don't "need" 40 TFLOPs for 8K. You only need a video card that supports the resolution and every card since 2020 is able to.

Straight from NVIDIA:

The GeForce RTX 3090 is not only the world's fastest graphics card, but also the world's first to connect, play, capture, and watch games at 8K HDR.

geforce-rtx-3090-8k-hdr-gaming

geforce-rtx-3090-8k-hdr-gaming

www.nvidia.com

 

[Mahavastu]

I'm not sure what's the limit on RDNA3s dual issuing capability or what the PS5 can run,but I would assume there should be a 2x speed up of for some type of operations on the Pro because the base PS5 is already using it. Think of back compat mode on PS4 games running on the PS5.

the RDNA3 dual issuing only works on RDNA3 and up: it uses new instructions which are not available on RDNA2 / PS5.
Or with other words, one would need a recompile of the shaders for both platfroms and then load the correct one depending on the device it runs on.

It now depends on "the tools" how much the PS5 pro can profit from it, especially how good are the compilers in generating code which can use this feature. The compilers for consoles are offline, which means they can as much time as they need. On PC the compilation happens in real time, which means it need to compile as fast as possible and maybe not all optimization can be used.

 

[Gaiff]

Straight from NVIDIA:

geforce-rtx-3090-8k-hdr-gaming

geforce-rtx-3090-8k-hdr-gaming

www.nvidia.com

And where do you think the 3050's spec sheet comes from? It's the NVIDIA website. It also outputs to 8K.

 

[Jibran#one]

I honesty don't see the reason of releasing this,
PS4 pro and one x were necessary because of everyone having a 4k TV. Also the PS4 had a kick ass library of games before the pro was launched but this time around there isnt a total of 10 exclusives on PS5 and they are releasing a pro version.
What game except ratchet and clank took advantage of the SSD.
Feels like the gen didn't even started properly and now they are releasing a pro version

 

[bitbydeath]

And where do you think the 3050's spec sheet comes from? It's the NVIDIA website. It also outputs to 8K.

Outputting 8K and playing games in 8K are two very different things.

 

[Elios83]

I honesty don't see the reason of releasing this,
PS4 pro and one x were necessary because of everyone having a 4k TV. Also the PS4 had a kick ass library of games before the pro was launched but this time around there isnt a total of 10 exclusives on PS5 and they are releasing a pro version.
What game except ratchet and clank took advantage of the SSD.
Feels like the gen didn't even started properly and now they are releasing a pro version

And yet everyone is complaining that FFVII Rebirth has a vaseline filter in performance mode, that Dragon's Dogma 2 won't even have a performance mode, that FSR/FSR2 looks like shit and creates pixel crawling in all games it is used (the true horror in Alan Wake 2 was this ) and so on and on.

PS5 Pro is for those that want better graphics, ray tracing effects and performance in their games.
You don't need another TV for this and this is a plus because it doesn't restrict the market furtherly due to another purchase being necessary.
The whole PC market has its existence based on people who upgrade their systems.
No one is forcing you to buy another 1500$ GPU and no one will force you to buy a PS5 Pro either but the benefits are there and there's a whole enthusiasts market that cares a lot about this stuff.

 

[Gaiff]

Outputting 8K and playing games in 8K are two very different things.

All you need to play games at 8K is the ability to output them at that resolution. What is the PS5 Pro playing at 8K? The Touryst? Mantis Burning Racing? Just slapping 8K gaming on the box is meaningless. I thought you’d have caught on after the PS5 slapped 8K on the box and still doesn’t have a game that runs in 8K.

 

[Luipadre]

Sounds awesome, most excited about the AI upscale. Finally good IQ in 60 fps modes? Please be real

 

[bitbydeath]

All you need to play games at 8K is the ability to output them at that resolution. What is the PS5 Pro playing at 8K? The Touryst? Mantis Burning Racing? Just slapping 8K gaming on the box is meaningless. I thought you’d have caught on after the PS5 slapped 8K on the box and still doesn’t have a game that runs in 8K.

Not much natively, it’ll be like 4K on the PS4 Pro.
Although if I recall correctly The Touryst already runs at 8K on the base PS5.

 

[Loxus]

Outputting 8K and playing games in 8K are two very different things.

It the same thing you posted, it send "play" or am I misunderstanding something.

The GeForce RTX 3090 is not only the world's fastest graphics card, but also the world's first to connect, play, capture, and watch games at 8K HDR.

 

[bitbydeath]

It the same thing you posted, it send "play" or am I misunderstanding something.

The GeForce RTX 3090 is not only the world's fastest graphics card, but also the world's first to connect, play, capture, and watch games at 8K HDR.

Yep, that is correct. Gaiff was saying earlier GPU’s could, but I think he was just confused about outputting 8K, and not playing in 8K.

 

[Rob_27]

I hope this is the start or a break away from the normal packages. I would like to see some Sony additions PPE type thing. Is this a chiplet?

 

[Panajev2001a]

With PS5, Sony invested in the IO Complex and Tempest Engine, but leaks never mention them.

Right now, we don't know the CPU or GPU architecture. Tom Henderson would have confirmed it by now.

I will grant the Tempest Engine (although given the work they did on PSVR, that PSVR2 was coming, and the fact they would have wanted to avoid a breakout box while they using 3D surround sound processing further, I think it was likely they would have pushed for stronger dedicated Audio HW), but I/O wise their strong statements on the faster than PC (at the time of the Wired interview) SSD lead naturally to that unless you think Cerny designs very unbalanced systems… the CPU cost without dedicated HW would be enormous otherwise.

Zen 2 to Zen4c is not as supported for a Pro console and it would not follow precedent (think PS4 to PS4 Pro where we had the much worse starting point with the Jaguar CPU core although it is true Sony did not have a lot of alternatives to pick from) nor do we have reasons we would expect a deviation beside Zen4c not being an impossible replacement which is not as high of a bar as we may think.

 

[Caio]

Not really. Those 33.5 TFLOPS are only accountable with the Dual Wave32 Instructions.
But if a game does not use them, which is all of them, then it's basically a 17 TFLOP machine.
Unless a dev manages to properly optimize for this, of if AMD and Sony manage to create a compiler to optimize shader code, a lot of games will perform as 17TFLOP.

33.5 is a theoretical value that will most likely never be reached; but from here to calling it a 17 TF machine is really a super pessimistic extension, to put it mildly. How software will perform in the beginning / many games, do not represent the real potential/specs of a piece of hardware. So, I just marginally agree with you.

 

[Gaiff]

Yep, that is correct. Gaiff was saying earlier GPU’s could, but I think he was just confused about outputting 8K, and not playing in 8K.

No, I wasn’t confused. The moment a card can output at a resolution, it can also play at that resolution. Get an 8K display, get a rig with an RTX 3050 and in the game menu, 8K will be available as a resolution. You can play the game. At probably 10fps but you can still play. Hence why I said 8K without context is meaningless.

 

[bitbydeath]

No, I wasn’t confused. The moment a card can output at a resolution, it can also play at that resolution. Get an 8K display, get a rig with an RTX 3050 and in the game menu, 8K will be available as a resolution. You can play the game. At probably 10fps but you can still play. Hence why I said 8K without context is meaningless.

Well, NVIDIA said it was the world’s first for playing games.

The others might be for outputting YouTube or video files in 8K, or they just weren’t serious about games in general.

 

[NeonDelta]

Straight from NVIDIA:

geforce-rtx-3090-8k-hdr-gaming

geforce-rtx-3090-8k-hdr-gaming

www.nvidia.com

Didn’t the 3090 come out before the 3050 though.

 

[shamoomoo]

The 7700 XT is also faster than the 4070 in those metrics yet it almost never beats the 4070. Those are byproducts of higher clocks.

We can't compared consoles to PCs in in terms of theoretical fill rates because there isn't a closed system with Nvidia GPUs in the with the same or lower fill rates. The technical specs of the PS5 pro is faster than the RTX 4070,I made the comparison at 2.8 GHz for the 4070 as it hovers between the 2.7-2.8 GHz.

From the DF PS5 vs RX 6700 video,we know the PS5 can be a bit fast with a lower clock rate.

 

[winjer]

33.5 is a theoretical value that will most likely never be reached; but from here to calling it a 17 TF machine is really a super pessimistic extension, to put it mildly. How software will perform in the beginning / many games, do not represent the real potential/specs of a piece of hardware. So, I just marginally agree with you.

Yet, you provide no technical reason for what you say.

 

[Gaiff]

Well, NVIDIA said it was the world’s first for playing games.

NVIDIA says a lot of things.

The others might be for outputting YouTube or video files in 8K.

They can play at 8K. Whether the performance is acceptable for you or not is a different story. Plus, the 8K claims are pure marketing bullshit. They said that because the $1500 RTX 3090 was only about 10-15% faster than the $700 RTX 3080. So what can we tell people to sucker them into spending over twice the money for marginal performance improvements? 8K!

We can't compared consoles to PCs in in terms of theoretical fill rates because there isn't a closed system with Nvidia GPUs in the with the same or lower fill rates. The technical specs of the PS5 pro is faster than the RTX 4070,I made the comparison at 2.8 GHz for the 4070 as it hovers between the 2.7-2.8 GHz.

From the DF PS5 vs RX 6700 video,we know the PS5 can be a bit fast with a lower clock rate.

Yes, so from the DF video, we gather the PS5's GPU performs quite close to its PC counterpart in most scenarios. Why would it suddenly change with the PS5 Pro?

 

[bitbydeath]

Didn’t the 3090 come out before the 3050 though.

This is true, good point.

 

[Audiophile]

The Dual-Issue compute from what I can gather is only any real use for FP32 Adds and FP32 Multiply-Adds; and even then you're not looking at a straight doubling in the real world.

To what degree they're used in current games is beyond my understanding.

Also, will a game have to be manually optimised for it or can the system automatically run those existing ops in Dual-Issue?

As it stands and until we're clear on these 3 points, it's a 16.75TF system based on the current leak and when compared relative to the base PS5; with room for improvement on select operations and the RDNA3/4 advantage.

 

[vkbest]

Fuck ray tracing, 60 FPS without blurry graphics, looking at you FF7 and Hogwarts, is all I need.

You don't need better machine, you need better developers for that.

 

[chromatic9]

I honesty don't see the reason of releasing this,
PS4 pro and one x were necessary because of everyone having a 4k TV. Also the PS4 had a kick ass library of games before the pro was launched but this time around there isnt a total of 10 exclusives on PS5 and they are releasing a pro version.
What game except ratchet and clank took advantage of the SSD.
Feels like the gen didn't even started properly and now they are releasing a pro version

I agree this gen hasn't really took off, the power of the PS5 over PS4 should be enough but the new engines and tech take a massive hit on performance.

PS5 pro is a good timely option for those that want better resolution and frame rates, perhaps handle new tech better as well. GTA 6, FF Rebirth and many other games can benefit. The industry is moving away from normal rasterized graphics but unfortunately it's costly on performance and requires improved power and ideas on how to structure the hardware.

 

[Loxus]

I will grant the Tempest Engine (although given the work they did on PSVR, that PSVR2 was coming, and the fact they would have wanted to avoid a breakout box while they using 3D surround sound processing further, I think it was likely they would have pushed for stronger dedicated Audio HW), but I/O wise their strong statements on the faster than PC (at the time of the Wired interview) SSD lead naturally to that unless you think Cerny designs very unbalanced systems… the CPU cost without dedicated HW would be enormous otherwise.

Zen 2 to Zen4c is not as supported for a Pro console and it would not follow precedent (think PS4 to PS4 Pro where we had the much worse starting point with the Jaguar CPU core although it is true Sony did not have a lot of alternatives to pick from) nor do we have reasons we would expect a deviation beside Zen4c being a. It impossible replacement which is not as high of a bar as we may think.

So far, the PS5 Pro is taking a different approach then the PS4 Pro.

The first and obvious sign, is not doubling the CUs.

Nothing suggests Sony can't use Zen4c.
Even Kepler, the one who started the Zen2 rumor, doesn't say Zen4c can't be used because compatibility.

 

[Bojji]

So you are basing this on what? Numbers tell different story.

Take for example this scene, console version is locked to 40fps but it drops in this place:

Without 40fps lock PS5 pro will run this:

- 54FPS if console is 45% more powerful (raw performance uplift in Sony words)
- 60FPS if console is 63% more powerful (theoretical number based on TF)

It wouldn't be bad to get 60FPS in previously locked 40FPS games but for 30FPS games it won't be that great:

- 42FPS with 45% upgrade
- 47FPS with theoretical max (63% upgrade)

While Pro was 2.3x more powerful than PS4 (in theory) and was able to run 30FPS PS4 game in 60FPS when CPU load wasn't an issue:

Of course real world games were massively bottlenecked by jaguars so it was a rare sight to see such difference in performance.

But Pro was doing 1440p in most games that were 1080p on PS4 so that's 78% resolution uplift in most games and some games had higher resolution like 1800p etc.

Of course real output of PS4 Pro was bottlenecked by weak CPU and insufficient memory BW upgrade but same is true for PS5 Pro, so theoretical 63% upgrade is most likely not possible in real life. Different story when RT is in play but we will see how much that 2-4x upgrade looks in real life.