Good luck getting a safe space in the real world when you graduate.
Hmm. At the same time if I saw people in black face costumes thinking it was cute it would really make me uncomfortable. We often for that actions like that are apart of systemic racism when dissecting it aside from it being a smaller magnitude. IdkThe nature of the grievance is a big part of them. Both of them are doing kinda dumb things, but there's a huge difference between massive systemic racism at UofM and what we're seeing described at Yale. Bigger issue, bigger tolerance.
yeah but safe space is not doing too well http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ivists-are-weaponizing-the-safe-space/415080/
2015 is the year i learned that a black person seeing a white person wear blackface as part of a humorous costume is intellectually challenging
Could you elaborate on this a little more? I'm reading this as one of those snarky reddit "why are black people upset by the mockery of the race, empathy-less post". Because obviously you could understand how someone could see it offensively and degradingly?
i'm sarcastically saying that there's nothing "intellectually challenging" about open bigotry
should we defend the missouri incidents where drunken assholes were calling black students niggers? they're just exercising their first amendment rights! you can't turn college into a hugbox! etc etc
it's a stupid argument. the students protesting things like this are asking to be treated with basic respect and human dignity, and they shouldn't have to debate a bunch of racists who think they're inherently lesser.
edit: and besides, i haven't heard that there's any college rules or legal prohibition against racist costumes. you are totally free to dress up as a caricature of a native american chief or whatever but people will call you out on it, and that's also free speech.
You are pushing it to the extreme. As far as I know nobody did this. Nobody is saying dressing in blackface for Halloween is acceptable. But it is not the role of the university to police outfits worn by students in advance and set up all kinds of guidelines.i'm sarcastically saying that there's nothing "intellectually challenging" about open bigotry
should we defend the missouri incidents where drunken assholes were calling black students niggers? they're just exercising their first amendment rights! you can't turn college into a hugbox! etc etc
it's a stupid argument. the students protesting things like this are asking to be treated with basic respect and human dignity, and they shouldn't have to debate a bunch of racists who think they're inherently lesser.
That is the whole point isn't it? That the university doesn't need those policies, because students should be able to deal with those issues themselves, see why it is wrong in some cases and explain people why.edit: and besides, i haven't heard that there's any college rules or legal prohibition against racist costumes. you are totally free to dress up as a caricature of a native american chief or whatever but people will call you out on it, and that's also free speech.
Could you elaborate on this a little more? I'm reading this as one of those snarky reddit "why are black people upset by the mockery of the race, empathy-less post". Because obviously you could understand how someone could see it offensively and degradingly?
I finally got around to reading the Halloween e-mail. The response to that is absolutely remarkable. I'm genuinely flabbergasted.
Personally while the administrators email was really well constructed and argued which I respect, it basically boiled down to let people choose their racist costumes if they want. No offense but her argument will not lead to a more engaged and intellectual campus. It has just given a majority white campus extra ammunition by adminstrators of all people to feel comfortable wearing shitty costumes and telling minorities to get over. And as an educated person she should know that is all this would come across as. Halloween is one day, people who wear these costumes do not give a fuck thought provoking conversation on halloween.
You are pushing it to the extreme. As far as I know nobody did this. Nobody is saying dressing in blackface for Halloween is acceptable. But it is not the role of the university to police outfits worn by students in advance and set up all kinds of guidelines.
The students should be adult enough to talk with each other and deal with being offended from time to time, instead of having an authority figure sort everything out for them.
i'm sarcastically saying that there's nothing "intellectually challenging" about open bigotry
should we defend the missouri incidents where drunken assholes were calling black students niggers? they're just exercising their first amendment rights! you can't turn college into a hugbox! etc etc
it's a stupid argument. the students protesting things like this are asking to be treated with basic respect and human dignity, and they shouldn't have to debate a bunch of racists who think they're inherently lesser.
edit: and besides, i haven't heard that there's any college rules or legal prohibition against racist costumes. you are totally free to dress up as a caricature of a native american chief or whatever but people will call you out on it, and that's also free speech.
Attempted to say this earlier but didn't find the words.
Also why are we now attacking the idea of safe spaces here?
Okay off the bat we can all agree that this conversation is a bit flawed with regards to this specific instance because there were not actual reported instances of blackface on campus, which is part of why this whole thing is ridiculous.
But if we set that aside in order to discuss the idea of blackface and other denigrating costumes in the abstract, is requesting that the University take an official stance on such costumes really that different from the grievances of the Missouri situation, in which their specific demand is that the University take other forms of overt and intimidating racism seriously?
If there are clear racist issues going on at the university, of course that should be addressed.Okay off the bat we can all agree that this conversation is a bit flawed with regards to this specific instance because there were not actual reported instances of blackface on campus, which is part of why this whole thing is ridiculous.
But if we set that aside in order to discuss the idea of blackface and other denigrating costumes in the abstract, is requesting that the University take an official stance on such costumes really that different from the grievances of the Missouri situation, in which their specific demand is that the University take other forms of overt and intimidating racism seriously?
They are doing this by investing 50 million in a diversity program over the next few years, so it isn't like the university is just ignoring the complaints.-Make a good faith effort to diversify the teaching staff with periodic scorecarding to report back progress on doing so.
So in other words, the concept of consequences for bigoted, stupid and hurtful actions should be ignored... Because halloween?
What you said has nothing to do with safe spaces.It's the means, not the ends which are attacked. The idea that hate speech should be condemned and obliterated, I think most people would agree with that. But what's the means about going about it? Violating someone's fundamental right to freedom of speech, or allowing the marketplace of ideas to ridicule that speech into irrelevance?
I think what's being advocated is that these students gain the intellectual fortitude to listen to something, even if it's vile and offensive, and dismiss it using their own logic and reason instead of using censorship.
Further, being offended by something has nothing to do with its validity or truthfulness. If something you find offensive is wrong, explain that logically instead of making an appeal to emotion.
I don't know why the school administration won't just do what's right here:
-Make dressing in blackface an offense that expels a student (there's no good justification for blackface)
-Make racial and LGBT bigotry (i.e., demonstrated hostility, verbal abuse, systemic exclusion, and violence) an expelable offense (in addition to many times being a hate crime).
-Make a good faith effort to diversify the teaching staff with periodic scorecarding to report back progress on doing so.
Essentially, if a person is born with traits that are out of their control (i.e., skin color, sexual preference, sex, gender, etc.) which are predisposed to being targeted with hate and bigotry in society at large, there should be rules put in place to ensure their safety and that they get their money's worth in terms of an education.
As far as I remember, schools do not have to protect free speech, especially if they are private institutions, the students are minors, or if the exercised speech gets in the way of other students learning. That being said, they should also make a good faith effort not to censor and to protect free speech in as many instances as possible for the benefit of intellectual growth. I do not understand why the 2 things are considered mutually exclusive to many. Make clear cut rules and follow them in terms of protecting the rights and safety of minority groups and other systematically disadvantaged groups.
It's the means, not the ends which are attacked. The idea that hate speech should be condemned and obliterated, I think most people would agree with that. But what's the means about going about it? Violating someone's fundamental right to freedom of speech, or allowing the marketplace of ideas to ridicule that speech into irrelevance?
I think what's being advocated is that these students gain the intellectual fortitude to listen to something, even if it's vile and offensive, and dismiss it using their own logic and reason instead of using censorship.
Further, being offended by something has nothing to do with its validity or truthfulness. If something you find offensive is wrong, explain that logically instead of making an appeal to emotion.
This is my stance. If there are grievances, express them in a civil manner.These students are clearly out of line. If you disagree with something, debate it, not yell at people. That's kind of one of the reasons you go to a university, to widen your worldview and share articulated opinions and facts, and so together further debate and knowledge.
Skipping class because you are upset about an email, yelling at people in the street, calling for teachers to be fired. What a load of bullshit. They should be looking at themselves in the mirror and ask if they would find it acceptable if they were being treated that way.
Dealing with issues on your own is quickly becoming a lost art. For example, the University of Missouri PD has sent an e-mail to Missouri students, asking them to call and report "hateful and/or hurtful speech or actions."The issue I see is that students should not expect the university to deal with every issue they have or whenever they feel offended by something. Students should be able to deal with those issues themselves, either by approaching the other party and explaining what they are doing is wrong in their eyes, or by letting it go since you can't have it your way all the time.
Agreed- I wouldn't be comfortable in that situation either, and I wouldn't be comfortable trying to have an academic discussion with someone so oblivious. In the Yale situation, the core issue appears to be an administrator (or administrators) living in an ivory tower about a mile high, oblivious to how the real world operates and how their response is completely ridiculous. Fundamentally, it appears to be a personnel issue, while UofM appears to be a student health/safety issue.Hmm. At the same time if I saw people in black face costumes thinking it was cute it would really make me uncomfortable. We often for that actions like that are apart of systemic racism when dissecting it aside from it being a smaller magnitude. Idk
I think this is getting taken out of context given some of the incidents that have brought about the protests. (aka actual hate speech.)Dealing with issues on your own is quickly becoming a lost art. For example, the University of Missouri PD has sent an e-mail to Missouri students, asking them to call and report "hateful and/or hurtful speech or actions."
From: https://twitter.com/Thomas_Bradbury/status/664115347021139968
This is my stance. If there are grievances, express them in a civil manner.
I believe that the students have every right to protest racism and racist ideas. But I don't support controls on speech or telling people what they can and cannot wear.
I dont really get your point. How can you have a discussion about how headresses and black face is racist shit wear and not imply people should not wear it? What are thry even protesting then if they dont have a goal?
Three questions.
One, what's so logical about bigotry? About racism?
Two, why is the onus on the victim to make things right? To "toughen up" and gain the intellectual fortitude to stop the bigotry?
Three, what if they don't have the capacity to do that? Should they just be forced to take it. Or run away?
EDIT: Bonus, What does this have to do with safe spaces?
They were perfectly capable of limiting their email to "hate speech" and not including "hurtful speech" as something students are to report.I think this is getting taken out of context given some of the incidents that have brought about the protests. (aka actual hate speech.)
That's not remotely true. That belief only makes sense if you stay in white-dominant parts of the world. Once you leave Europe / the US - you better believe there are plenty of costumes that do that.
There are quite a few costumes that can denigrate the entire white race once you leave Europe / America. We're still more than a little bitter about the entire colonization thing.
Serious question, like what? What costumes dehumanize white skin tone to be mocked and shunned?
The one I saw in South Africa was a pale skinned fat suit tied to colonization (think old school stereotypical white southerner garb); the ones in Asia tend to be tied to either weight (fat suits) or stupidity (think white hick hats + shirts with America written sloppily / incorrectly).
Basically, you make fun of 'em for being some combination of fat / lazy / stupid / arrogant.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTeSgFcUkAAq5-7.jpg:largeThey were perfectly capable of limiting their email to "hate speech" and not including "hurtful speech" as something students are to report.
It's also the year in which you revealed you aren't reading. Again: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...tolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/2015 is the year i learned that a black person seeing a white person wear blackface as part of a humorous costume is intellectually challenging
Three questions.
One, what's so logical about bigotry? About racism?
Two, why is the onus on the victim to make things right? To "toughen up" and gain the intellectual fortitude to stop the bigotry?
Three, what if they don't have the capacity to do that? Should they just be forced to take it. Or run away?
EDIT: Bonus, What does this have to do with safe spaces?
1) Species that is based off of social nomadic tribes dislikes other sets of same species who are from different areas. Seems pretty logical to me. Hell, maybe you can ask the Mizzou kids who called an Asian-American part of the "white media" about what made their racist comment so logical?
2) Because you are the one being affected by it. Going back to the Mizzou case - note that the photographer was the one who had to try to reasonably talk to the mob. Even though that group of "victims" was swarming and trying to remove him by force.
3) Man, if only they were in some place that taught them that capacity to handle and deal with the inequalities of life with logic and reason and compassion....
Eh, at 18-20 I was starting to have a good sense of how to handle myself in the world. I give 14-15 year olds a pass for most things, but by that age there's a certain level of maturity you should exhibit if you want to be taken seriously
How is that dean black? unless the dude she is yelling at is not the dean.
If you can't see how that isn't different I don't know what to tell you. White is default in this world. The south african one specifically sounds like punching up, the Asian one sounds like a stereotype. Neither was billed as a marquee event for years as entertainment. Neither misrepresented a culture of people in such a systematic way as to reach Europe and other countries as "folk" figures. To construe the minstrel show as little more than something that makes you feel introspection is a gross misrepresentation on your part.
Cybit
"racism" is just a tangential web of coincidences and misunderstandings and not unabashed hatred as some people would have you believe, myth busted, you can all go home now
(Today, 01:04 PM)
Blackface mocks those who were disenfranchised. Colonization mocks those who did the disenfranchisement. That distinction entirely flips the nature of the attack - being reminded of pain you endured vs pain you caused others to endure.
It's also the year in which you revealed you aren't reading. Again: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...tolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/
The one I saw in South Africa was a pale skinned fat suit tied to colonization (think old school stereotypical white southerner garb); the ones in Asia tend to be tied to either weight (fat suits) or stupidity (think white hick hats + shirts with America written sloppily / incorrectly).
Basically, you make fun of 'em for being some combination of fat / lazy / stupid / arrogant.
You're still a child at 18 and you're definitely still learning how the world works. Not to excuse her behavior but she still is a kid.
Blackface mocks those who were disenfranchised. Colonization mocks those who did the disenfranchisement. That distinction entirely flips the nature of the attack - being reminded of pain you endured vs pain you caused others to endure.
Also, I don't agree that "white is default in this world."
It's also the year in which you revealed you aren't reading. Again: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...tolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/
Hundreds of Yale students are attacking them, some with hateful insults, shouted epithets, and a campaign of public shaming.