Its also a long overdue payoff to Umbrella as a whole. Just about every other time we see their monsters or viruses they're these monstrous, impractical beasts (that one or two guys can kill) or complete failures that no one would pay for. I don't know how this company stays in the BOW business. So seeing it work, for once, is a nice change of pace.
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Resident Evil Community |OT2| Best Fans Ever!
- Thread starter kamineko
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Its also a long overdue payoff to Umbrella as a whole. Just about every other time we see their monsters or viruses they're these monstrous, impractical beasts (that one or two guys can kill) or complete failures that no one would pay for. I don't know how this company stays in the BOW business. So seeing it work, for once, is a nice change of pace.
Jawmuncher
Member
Does the wiki have every card? I remember the RE cross over for that Square Enix zombie game. I think it was called Dead Cross? I remember the art work being pretty cool there.
At least it's only 30 bucks, and on PC at launch should be easy to find for 25 bucks. I'll be there Day 1 for PC.
Unsure about PS4. Might depend on the trophy list. Though i'll probably pick it up regardless at some point.
Having just replayed RE5, I'm refreshed on the limitations of Wesker's powers -- namely, he must periodically renew them with an exacting dose of serum.
He's essentially taking performance-enhancing drugs, in other words, granting himself extraordinary strength, resilience, speed, reflexes and jumping ability... for a period of time.
More encouraging than the unpleasant mutations of Umbrella's work, for sure, but there are still kinks to work out!
He's essentially taking performance-enhancing drugs, in other words, granting himself extraordinary strength, resilience, speed, reflexes and jumping ability... for a period of time.
More encouraging than the unpleasant mutations of Umbrella's work, for sure, but there are still kinks to work out!
Jawmuncher
Member
Still it's rather odd that there hasn't been much like that in the series. I suppose it balances out. We have Jake now, and it would be a bit much to have everyone going steroids like that. Still I think there's room for another baddie to take hold of those powers.
Nah, just the cards I managed to find except one, which I missed in the uploading process. Probably for the best, considering.
Jawmuncher
Member
LOL. Well all the good one's seem to be there. Props.
One of the RE franchise's best assists is the continuing ability to throw new stuff in there and run with it. Its definitely odd, but in context of RE 5 and CV just kind of works. A new Wesker-eque villain could do well; I really just hope whoever wrote Rev 2 is brought back. Whatever they make will be gold.
Umbrella has enough successful products. For example:
Zombie
Cerberus
Hunter
Tyrant
Ivy
Anubis
Web Spinner
Eliminator
Plague Crawler
Licker
Albinoid
Chimera
Black Widow
Jumping Maneater
Neptune
Ivy +YX
Each one suits specific roles and circumstances making it necessary for customers to purchase multiple models to cover all bases. Not dissimilar to the variety in the normal weapons industry. Some are cheap, some are expensive. All are devestating under the right conditions. The only ineffective ones above are the Ivies and the Neptune, and the latter only because it's confined to water. But it would work very well in underwater based missions, or as a facility security measure.
In some fantasy world, sure, and it works in game. But for the most part, they're pretty silly and impractical if we think of them in a realistic world. Wesker's powers are the first time we get a really relatable show of a virus's success.
Are they, though? They're stronger, faster, and quite harder to kill than people. An argument for the use of BC (bio-chemical) weapons and drones and the like is minimizing the attacker's casualties. B.O.W.'s fulfill that role very well, while maximizing panic, fear and devestation. They're also cheaper to develop than normal weapons and conventional BC weapons, even the Tyrants and such.
After all, you're essentially just administering a virus to induce random mutations, allowing the host to grow, assessing whether those mutations are any good, and then either scrapping it or isolating its genome for cloning or further improvements. Umbrella already had the methodology down and their prime resource made specific gene manipulation a walk in the park, so financially the development of B.O.W.'s was a major alternative to conventional weapons. Equipment and facilities strained the company's budget more than their weapons did, which is how they're able to afford them to begin with.
The Tyrants in Damnation can even hold their own against tanks. They'd have been a perfect weapon if the Hypnos-T Type hadn't been destroyed, also. A Tyrant with the most human appearance and build with increased ferocity, but the same ability to be controlled. Able to infiltrate enemy territory disguised as human and continue to only grow stronger and even more ferocious with damage.
To be fair, the Lickers and Tyrants in Damnation showed how effective some of the B.O.W.s would be in a less game-y setting.
e;f,b
Stallion Dan
Member
The train platform/turntable upper area is outside though, on the surface. It's one floor above the cable car, you use stairs to reach it from the cable car.
The PC and Dreamcast version have extra costumes, so the boutique store isn't big enough anymore, so now you select costumes at start of game.
Except the RE0/RE2 lab isn't gameplay, it's story and even features story cutscenes. The elevator leading back to the training facility is gameplay. It's in the game, there is no alternate story path, and it even gets returned to in a later game. It's canon.
No excuses made to defend story will change that. But I already said we're done discussing that so gonna stop here once again.
Always? More like after the terrible backlash about it. Pre-release there are several statements from several people at Capcom and Slant 6 stating the game is canon.
Kawata (Capcom) - "Not necessarily entirely in the canon" (Remember we could kill Leon being a marketing thing, which kinda backfired, 'not neccessarily entirely' is allowing for this)
Kawata - "It is fully integrated into the chronology of Resident Evil, and it is totally immersed into the mythology."
Adam Boyd (creative director Slant 6) - "We're not changing the Resident Evil canon, we're not changing the Resident Evil storyline. We're working in with it."
Mike Jones (Capcom US producer) - "Capcom was extremely nitpicky and detail-oriented about the scenario, and making sure that the game could seamlessly fit into the canon and into the timeline of RE 2 and 3,"
Mike Jones - "And Slant Six [are] huge Resident Evil fans; they've studied up, they know the timeline, they know the characters, and they gave us a lot of awesome ideas, a lot of which we used, and a lot of which did conflict with canon. But's it's been a long road that we had to pave with Slant Six to come up with the scenario and campaign that we did. But it's Capcom Japan-approved, fits into the timeline, fits into the story, it does not conflict with the canon, and you can play it in a way that does not disrupt Resident Evil 2 or 3 at all"
Clearly at some point someone decided this should change.
A lot of non-canon things occur in the stories and feature story cutscenes. Ada falling off the bridge isn't canon, but it's still there. You're the one making excuses now. BIO3 has multiple character development directions for Jill and Carlos, there's no way to even tell which is canon. Carlos can lose all hope until Barry arrives or he can remain hopeful and actually be contacted by Barry, etc. You're not saying anything the series hasn't already denied. You're looking at it like a straightforward linear movie narrative and not a video game that can use it in multiple different ways.
Operation Raccoon City may have been intended to be canon before it was actually written. However, it very quickly wasn't and was relegated as "another story" (the Japanese term for side-story that only Gaiden also fits into). Mike Jones is a no-name to the series. He has zero authority and never knew what he was talking about at any point. He's factually incorrect on everything he said about the game. I don't even think he was lying, I think he was just as woefully ignorant of the series as Slant Six. Kawata on the other hand never said it was canon or that it didn't conflict. He said that it was "integrated into the chronology" (it takes place at the same time as BIO2) and was "totally immersed into the mythology" (things like B.O.W.'s in the series are also here and it follows the same basic story as BIO2 but develops differently). It "not necessarilly entirely in the canon" is a polite way of saying it has nothing to do with the canon besides following the basic story. Adam Boyd was full of shit too and doesn't seem to understand the basic concept of cohesion because nothing in ORC fits with anything else in the series, at all. It's contradictory at the very core. This is the same company that thinks a virus is a "compound." Slant Six don't know a thing about the story and it showed.
Kawata's descriptions are the same ones used for Gaiden and the drama albums, because Operation Raccoon City is the same style of story. They're set in parallel alternate universes where events branch off in another direction at some point in the timeline, but they follow the canon up until that specific point. In this case, post-Mansion Incident.
Stallion Dan
Member
This is why I said we're done discussing it.
Your very first sentance just ignores my post. I already said RE0 has no alternative story paths so your post following the above sentance which is all about alternative story paths is all meaningless because I already accounted for and voided that arguement.
Did you actually read my post or forget it the moment you finished reading, or is it just selective reading?
There is no discussion with you as in order to discuss something you need acknowledge other peoples points, not completely ignore them.
Apologies if this sounds agressive, it is not, I just see this as pointless and don't want to waste my time further. Have a nice day.
You're the one ignoring every single point presented to you because you can't comprehend a story that isn't linear and doesn't come with caveats. You think everything presented to the player is all there is, in literal form across every aspect of the game. It simply doesn't work that way. You still haven't given a single example of a plot hole in the entire series, either. Sometimes an easter egg is just an easter egg, regardless of how it's presented. It's a nod to fans with absolutely no bearing or involvement in the narrative. This is not a guess, it's the fact of the matter.
But you'll rather believe that a company of writers who maintained an incredible level of consistency in a rather large mythology comprised of intricate plot threads for 20 years somehow slipped up with a single environment in a single game even though it never even attempts to make sense in that game or another game it appears in, instead of just acknowledging it for what it is: an easter egg. Can you reconcile Solid Snake's infinite ammo nod in the framework of the story as anything other than an easter egg? What about Mantis reading your memory card and quoting game names or implying supersoldier Solid Snake is actually a shitty soldier? It's not possible. Neither is this lab, because it's not part of the story.
Did Leon A, today I'll start Claire B. Regarding your post, what happen if you don't kill the alligator and spray the gas?
badcrumble
Member
The alligator shows up in scenario B if you don't kill it in scenario A, IIRC.
BOW gas, if activated in Scenario A, weakens the monsters in the labs (but then strengthens them for the Scenario B playthrough). Can't remember the specifics on that. Maybe it affects whether the plant enemies can poison you? It's been a LONG time. I can't remember what the actual *benefits* of the gas are.
I always kill the alligator, since it's easy to do so with the gas canister, but for the most part I try to give whatever advantages I can to Claire since her arsenal is a lot less useful than Leon's for the most part (and since the grenade launcher likely needs you to give its ammunition a greater amount of inventory space).
Stallion Dan
Member
What terrible straw men.
How can you not kill it? Isn't killing the alligator required to even leave the corridor?
Haha, nope. Just you failing to see the forest for the trees. Still no examples, either.
Get this: Outbreak is also canon. But its method of destroying Raccoon City is not. According to your logic this couldn't possibly be a simple style choice to enhance the drama of the situation.
Stallion Dan
Member
You can in fact just hurt it enough that it retreats, breaks through a wall and heads off somewhere.
Not joking.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I like to think the underground lab was canon. Easter eggs are one thing, but turning an entire explorable area into one is stretching the definition a bit, I think. What it really comes down to is poorly researched geography and a different director between 2 and 0. The idea was for the lab to be the lab, even if it doesn't end up making sense. That's my two cents, anyway.
It comes down to it being an easter egg. That's the actual reason, but it's fun to think about and speculate.
The change in director never really means anything in regards to story in this series, the directors don't write the story or even create or design the game's settings and environments in most cases. 0's writer also wrote 2 and he's the one who suggested the lab be put in 0 in the first place, purely as a teasing nod to fans who would (and did/do) want a remake of 2, some partly because of what they saw in 0, which was the point.
The area is also used in Umbrella Chronicles where they don't even try hiding the fact that it exists in a vacuum, considering they modify the geography again completely for the sake of speeding up gameplay, rather than lengthening it as in 0. The magic elevator in UC leads to the normal 0 route of the treatment plant in one scenario, but then leads to a completely new route right outside the second final boss room in another scenario. There wasn't even a door in that spot before, let alone an elevator. In that scenario the treatment plant even supplies power to the cable car somehow, even though that's not possible. These scenarios were written by the same people. They are the way they are for the sake of the gameplay.
As I've said, there's a disconnect between plot and gameplay even though each one can service the other, but often times one is sacrificed for the other's sake. The plot takes a backseat during gameplay. Yes you can read files, but these are all ancillary background details that, most of the time, never inform the character's actions. Likewise with environment examine texts. They're in the backseat while you do things in gameplay that contradict things a character just said a few minutes ago, such as only being able to kill Zombies with headshots. There are varying reasons for the disconnect and it's evident in many video games.
Wow, mind blown. To use the gas canister to blow the alligator's head was so obvious from the very beginning that in my countless playthroughs I've never even thought about not doing it.
Stallion Dan
Member
Nope you're not using straw men? When you're using things are that aren't the point of argument to build your reasons against those arguments instead. Because you're wrong, that is exactly what you are doing, attacking your own straw men.
I'm not asking this in a patronising way, just wondering if English is your first language, because it's like you're not understanding words and their definitions.
No dude, that cannot be right, because the story is perfect and flawless and that would make the story not perfect and flawless, even though the games writer decided to add that in. Also all those other times the story isn't perfect and flawless are hereby declared not canon too, and the plot holes in the series are hereby not canon so now there are no plot holes either. Also where guide books have conflicting info, the conflicting bit is declared not canon.
RE really does have the most consistent and flawless story in gaming!
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
The way you're describing it makes it seem like it's canon, though. Unless you're implying that there are two identical laboratories in the RE universe?
Haha, oh boy. I can see this is a heated topic.
As an aside, I took both of your earlier comments about canon and made a post about them.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
The only thing about the lab being a straight-up Easter Egg is one of the most important character moments for Rebecca in all of Zero technically happens in the lab. The moment that dictates that Rebecca is going to go to the mansion of RE1 after all of this when Enrico tells her to meet him there, and she agrees to but she needs to find Billy first (and the following dramatic kind of out of place self-narration, "That was the last time I ever saw him."). I know technically that could of happened anywhere as the main point is she bumps into Enrico, it's the last time she see's Enrico alive (and anyone else from Alpha Team outside of Brad Vickers), and all he needs to tell her is to go to the RE1 mansion to meet him there. Like I know geographically it makes no sense, and I know they wanted to include it to be a little fun area for fans, but I feel when they made it they weren't thinking to themselves that her being here is non-canon, and if they were, why stuff a very important scene that leads to Rebecca's eventual fate in that location of all places?
Stallion Dan
Member
I didn't actually make that list myself, I copy and pasted it from another RE fan who did it, though it is accurate, I checked. I don't take the canon arguments seriously though, I've read enough materials from enough langauges and played enough games that I can see while there is a generaly strong idea of it, Capcom happy to retcon, plot hole and just leave things in that make no sense. Doesn't stop me enjoying the series.
Jawmuncher
Member
It was a exact replica of the lab for training use. Done.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I'd accept it in a world where there's a semi-reconstruction of the Spencer Mansion in Antarctica and two or three exact replicas of the same ship, Queen Zenobia, only made for the purpose of being a decoy distraction.
I'm not describing it as canon at all. It exists in a vacuum, outside of the story. Just like so many other things.
Here's something you can add to that post, Kamiya pointing out the nature of how the game cannot be viewed as a linear narrative:
Remember, BIO2 was made in a very short timeframe. There were things that were included but cut for various reasons (a scene with Leon/Claire mistaking the Tyrant for human was cut because it was more effective for the horror to just have it round a corner and attack your character with a sudden music queue). There were also things that couldn't be included due to time and budget issues, just like the first game. On top of this, there's the standard common sense in fiction that you don't need to see or read something from a direct perspective to know something happens off-page or off-camera. Games have the added caveat of things happening even if not seen while playing.
BIO3 is the first game to have a "completed" narrative but it still uses player choice and as a result there are various ways to view the story. Archives doesn't present a canon outline of the story. They are just overviews of the story that choose specific events because that's the only way to present the story without being confusing. BIO3's overview outright states in a postscript that it may conflict with the player's experience. Unlike the rest of the book, which is information taken directly from CAPCOM's planning and scenario documents, those story overviews are original content written by the Archives staff. Official story overviews do not go into that much detail because of the reasons I've stated many times already.
English is my first language.
If you want to prove the story has a hole, present one. I've asked you at least four times and you haven't given a single example. You keep retreating to this same old tired and thoroughly explained misconception. It's not impossible for a video game to blur the lines between plot and gameplay, in fact most games with stories do so. Using snide hyperbole doesn't help your case. It's also frankly not possible for the entire story to be included. But those guide books you view as secondary are on the exact same level as the games in terms of plot relevance. They're taken from the exact same paper. To devalue the books is to devalue the games.
Umbrella Chronicles moves canon scenes around too. The scene with Birkin and Wesker in "Beginnings" uses almost the exact same dialogue as the scene where they part ways in 0, indicating that it's the same event. You can view either as true, because only the words matter. Beginnings even moves up the scene's timing to facilitate the gameplay. There's no reason you can't imagine that Rebecca spoke to Enrico after Billy goes missing and before reaching the treatment plant.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
Also, to get off our talk of that, I was just thinking about this and curious where you guys may sit on this.
Ranking favorite to least favorite (or visa-versa) 'Mansion-Type' location (I know not all of these I'm listing are Mansions, but you all know the sort of setting type I mean by this, the big 'resident' type area with the keys, and the doors, traps, etc that twist into each other and stands as main locales in RE games usually).
-Training Facility (RE0)
-Spencer Mansion (RE1)
-RPD Police Station (RE2)
-Public/Private Residence (Code Veronica)
-Castle (RE4) <--This one may be the biggest stretch I'm including, but think it's mansion-like
-Spencer Estate (Lost in Nightmares)
-Queen Zenobia (Revelations)
-'Watcher's' (
) Mansion (Revelations 2)
-Town Hall (RE6 Chris Chapter 2) <--Stretching, but I do think it's supposed to give mansion-like vibes
-Chinese Palace (RE6 Jake Chapter 3)
I'm not including some of the spin-off locations that may count towards this loose definition of 'mansion-like' locations (a few places in Outbreak could apply under my definition, for example), but I'm just curious how people may rank the type of locations based off of what they've personally played?
Ranking favorite to least favorite (or visa-versa) 'Mansion-Type' location (I know not all of these I'm listing are Mansions, but you all know the sort of setting type I mean by this, the big 'resident' type area with the keys, and the doors, traps, etc that twist into each other and stands as main locales in RE games usually).
-Training Facility (RE0)
-Spencer Mansion (RE1)
-RPD Police Station (RE2)
-Public/Private Residence (Code Veronica)
-Castle (RE4) <--This one may be the biggest stretch I'm including, but think it's mansion-like
-Spencer Estate (Lost in Nightmares)
-Queen Zenobia (Revelations)
-'Watcher's' (
Alex's
-Town Hall (RE6 Chris Chapter 2) <--Stretching, but I do think it's supposed to give mansion-like vibes
-Chinese Palace (RE6 Jake Chapter 3)
I'm not including some of the spin-off locations that may count towards this loose definition of 'mansion-like' locations (a few places in Outbreak could apply under my definition, for example), but I'm just curious how people may rank the type of locations based off of what they've personally played?
I wonder how many people saw this while playing Outbreak. A lot of story is hidden away in the game's ad-libs, namely the significance of Yoko's mysterious past.
The English translation butchers it quite a bit and implies that the t-Virus only exists at all because of Yoko two years before the game, rather than Yoko being used to perfect it after decades of development.
The English translation butchers it quite a bit and implies that the t-Virus only exists at all because of Yoko two years before the game, rather than Yoko being used to perfect it after decades of development.
Jawmuncher
Member
I always thought the castle in RE4 was kind of lame. It makes sense that it's there but I dunno, I don't like the look of it.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I need to dig deeper into Outbreak in general, but been waiting either to play via fan servers with friends or Outbreak to be released again in some official way with online.
You're definitely not alone, I've seen others with the opinion, but I must admit I like it. Given I agree I don't like the looks but I've actually visited a lot of Spain castles and I'm not a fan what the older ones look like either. I like the location itself probably because I personally love several of the moments that happen there, traps, and stronger horrror tones. Find the Cult Ganados a bit creepy woth their noises and pale faces, head eater Plagas are tense, and variety of scenes like first Garrador, invisible insect sewer, hedge maze, turret room, the section where you play as Ashley, Verdugo, etc.
Why do I have the feeling that this is supposed to be the "morir es vivir" from RE4.
Yeah but that is what I heard the first time
and the farmers said something about Youtube.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I have no idea what they're actually saying, know no Spanish, but I usually hear stuff like they're saying (different verse than being quoted) as, "koge-ga-koge, Sleeeep, Sleeep." Which my off-the-mark hearings are good enough for me as I find their noises a bit creepy without understanding it.
It's the biggest cock-up in the series. There's already a fairly large amount of story in the ten scenarios that were released, but there were another ten that not only had more story, but are also integral to Outbreak's narrative since each was meant to flow into the other.
You were meant to battle the Birkin family's pet dog, for instance, after it's exposed to the G-Virus hidden in its collar. As well as a battle with a Megalodon-size Neptune aboard a barg. Not to mention interacting directly with U.B.C.S. and U.S.S. soldiers and being able to somewhat see the incident from their perspective.
Sumio Mondo
Member
I always thought the village was too plain and a bit dull on replays. The enemies in that location are just too easy. The Castle is definitely favourite location in the game with the most variety. And the military site at the end was underrated (Regenerators, Iron Maidens, good enemy variety). It goes like this for me: Castle > Military Site > Village
People get really nostalgic about the village and I don't know why.
I'm not sure what line you're referring to, specifically, sorry :/
It's probably a good thing you don't know Spanish, because then you'd realize they're speaking on Mexican/Latin American accents even though the game happens in Spain.
The demo.
None of 4's environments are particularly good to me. The castle is too extravagantly ludicrous for its own good, with zero world building.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I knew about Outbreak being only half-way finished and a few things that never came to be (and stuff feom File 3 on the disk still), but some of what you described sounds great to me and now I'm sad.
For now I'll hold onto hope that Outbreak 1 & 2 are re-released sometime with online. And if those are received okay, maybe see something more come out of it, however unlikely that is.
Jawmuncher
Member
I still like to think that maybe if they did a new rerelease that they would include some of that. Or at least all of the stuff that was accessible through gameshark back in the day like the skins.
So, completed Claire B, I had a little surprise when
I played the game literally 15 years ago or so, and only with one character, I didn't remember pretty much anything, so I really enjoyed it. I will do Claire A/Leon B, now, but is there a way to use your save or it's useless? Because when I saved the save was marked as Leon A again, so I think I can't use it, right?
the game didn't end after the train scene and I was required to go outside, because I had one rocket ammo, no healing items and only two grenade shots, but luckily the boss here was very easy.
I played the game literally 15 years ago or so, and only with one character, I didn't remember pretty much anything, so I really enjoyed it. I will do Claire A/Leon B, now, but is there a way to use your save or it's useless? Because when I saved the save was marked as Leon A again, so I think I can't use it, right?
Stallion Dan
Member
LeonA/Claire B
ClaireA/Leon B
Hunk
Tofu
Make them all seperate save slots. No, unlocks from one slot do not carry over to another. Starting fresh I am afraid.
And the Wolf Maze, don't forget that!
Personally I loved RE4 all the way through and don't get the Island hate that gets thrown around. I loved how long the game was as well, at the time I was so mindblown by the game that I didn't want it to end... and it didn't!