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[HighResTomato]

So what is the way ? Going through legal means didn't work

If we all ignore legal means because they didn't side with us we'd be in helluva lot of trouble.

I can't tell you the way but this is the system we work with, guilt must be proven in court.

Also very hard for me to believe is the incompetence of a hospital to destroy medical files relating to a rape case. Is there no way for them to be prosecuted?

 

[Chococat]

If the justice system worked, this would not be needed. It is in great need of reform. Until them, victims should be able to talk about there attackers and share their stories to protect themselves. IT is to fill the gap where law and society has failed victims.

Rape is not a high priority- 100,000s of rape kits across the country are backlog from years and decades ago. Society at large still blames women for how they dress, for drinking, for where they walk, how much sex they have, and who they associate with. There is the phenomenon that when a women/ proclaims she is raped, whole towns* and colleges turn against the women and protect the rapist. It is full accepted in society at large to scorn women as whores, sluts, and bitches, even when there is no rape involved.

If men can talk about who and who is not a good fuck in society and online by name and with pictures, women should to have the same right to share who not to sleep with and be careful in area X, their might be a serial rapist on the loose.

*yes, I talk about women, cause it is the topic, but sexual assault that occurs to men and boys is equally as abhorrent. Rape society that exist around women exist for male victims too. Just look at Penn State and the Catholic Church.

 

[Haunted]

Worst case, she is going to get sued for slander and has to pay a hefty fine/go to jail.

Not sure if it's worth it.


injustice is one of the hardest things to stomach

 

[Chococat]

Worse case, she is going to get sued for slander and has to pay a hefty fine/go to jail.

Not sure if it's worth it.

Best case by sharing information, a serial rapist is taken down.

 

[Emulated Hype]

This kind of behavior feels like a slander lawsuit waiting to happen imo.

 

[Nepenthe]

So if a woman gets raped and the justice system fails her when she tries to utilize it, she is essentially to never talk about it ever because a man's reputation is more important than the safety and bodily autonomy than women.

This is literally what rape culture is.

 

[HighResTomato]

If the justice system worked, this would not be needed. It is in great need of reform. Until them, victims should be able to talk about there attackers and share their stories to protect themselves. IT is to fill the gap where law and society has failed victims.

Rape is not a high priority- 100,000s of rape kits across the country are backlog from years and decades ago. Society at large still blames women for how they dress, for drinking, for where they walk, how much sex they have, and who they associate with. There is the phenomenon that when a women/ proclaims she is raped, whole towns* and colleges turn against the women and protect the rapist. It is full accepted in society at large to scorn women as whores, sluts, and bitches, even when there is no rape involved.

If men can talk about who and who is not a good fuck in society and online by name and with pictures, women should to have the same right to share who not to sleep with and be careful in area X, their might be a serial rapist on the loose.

*yes, I talk about women, cause it is the topic, but sexual assault that occurs to men and boys is equally as abhorrent. Rape society that exist around women exist for male victims too. Just look at Penn State and the Catholic Church.

Talking about who is good in bed (women do this to? who figured) is not the same as going around saying some one is a rapist.

 

[gaiages]

There is no such thing as "full truth" when it comes to the legal system. It's really not that simple, even outside of badly run cases.

I... know that, but I was replying to someone talking about this kind of stuff on social media, which, well... isn't a court of law.

What I'm saying is if you're going to out someone in public about sexual assault, there's no reason to mince words and be nice and say "oh this is a bad person, but I won't say why". It's weak and really don't help anyone with anything.

 

[Kthulhu]

Wouldn't it be more productive to try and change the system through activism? Shaming seems like it'll do little, and worst case scenario it'll backfire and she'll get sued.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Talking about who is good in bed (women do this to? who figured) is not the same as going around saying some one is a rapist.

I notice youre framing this entire conversation as if someone is just spreading rumors

 

[Ferr986]

So if a woman gets raped and the justice system fails her when she tries to utilize it, she is essentially to never talk about it ever because a man's reputation is more important than the safety and bodily autonomy than women.

This is literally what rape culture is.

Basically.

Sucks that I'm reading once again a lot of "what if"s. We tend to prioritize the "what if" more than the victim. It's fucked up.

 

[ShyMel]

Considering how many girls and women have had their names dragged through the mud and worse because they reported their rapist, this is not surprising. Naming rapists to protect other women in a private space wins over receiving threats because you named your rapist in public.

 

[eizarus]

So if a woman gets raped and the justice system fails her when she tries to utilize it, she is essentially to never talk about it ever because a man's reputation is more important than the safety and bodily autonomy than women.

This is literally what rape culture is.

Too many people, especially on GAF, have too much faith in the legal system. They're not prepared for when it fails (and it doesn't take much research to see that it does in fact fail in every single country on Earth). There are no infallible systems.

 

[Stone Ocean]

So if a woman gets raped and the justice system fails her when she tries to utilize it, she is essentially to never talk about it ever because a man's reputation is more important than the safety and bodily autonomy than women.

This is literally what rape culture is.

This isn't unique to rape crimes. You can't label someone who hasn't been convicted of robbery a thief. You can't label someone who hasn't been convicted of murder a killer.

 

[Nepenthe]

Wouldn't it be more productive to try and change the system through activism? Shaming seems like it'll do little, and worst case scenario it'll backfire and she'll get sued.

I'm a woman who is 4'11" and a lightweight.

I'd much rather know my friendly neighborhood Brock Turner's a piece of shit than to wait on systemic charges (that probably aren't coming) while having the potential to sit down and have a drink with the guy.

 

[eizarus]

This isn't unique to rape crimes. You can't label someone who hasn't been convicted of robbery a thief. You can't label someone who hasn't been convicted of murder a killer.

Legally speaking you can't. But what about situations, like this, where they lied about her medical records? Just because the court failed, doesn't change reality.

 

[benicillin]

Too many people, especially on GAF, have too much faith in the legal system. They're not prepared for when it fails (and it doesn't take much research to see that it does in fact fail in every single country on Earth). There are no infallible systems.

I mean, it's almost like the demographic on GAF leans towards the people the legal system usually works for.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is really dangerous for the women involved. They could be taken to court for criminal defamation, which carries a penalty of up to three years' imprisonment. If the person they're accusing wasn't formally convicted in a court of law, then the case is quite clearly on that person's side.

 

[HighResTomato]

I notice youre framing this entire conversation as if someone is just spreading rumors

I'm not framing it in any sort of way. And rape accusations are not just "rumours", they can destroy a person and should when true.

Your response to this is, "Justice system failed, we should circumvent it:"

If everyone did this because the courts didn't side with them, then what?

 

[Stone Ocean]

Legally speaking you can't. But what about situations, like this, where they lied about her medical records? Just because the court failed, doesn't change reality.

It doesn't. It sucks. It's really fucking disgusting and the state needs to be publically humiliated and prosecuted for it.

But if we can't have basic guarantees for even the biggest excuse for a human being on Earth then there is no point to a legal system.

 

[H.Protagonist]

It's a horrible situation. This kind of thing only arose because of the failure of society to protect women like these. It's not an ideal solution but the real problem is the need for any personal solution to begin with.

And when the justice system fails you then you get stuff like this happening.

Yup. I mean, ideally I'd want the damned system to reform, for there to be more support and real recourse for the people this happens too. In lieu of that, though, I think it's perfectly reasonable (and should be expected) that they want to share their experiences with others. Until everyone cares enough to prioritize actual reform, I say it's fair game.

Victims sharing their experiences because the legal system is designed to fail them to protect one another is not "mob justice."

Many posters on GAF seem to prefer that victims just stay silent and shut up even when the legal channels (as they often do) fail them. It's really troubling.

^Yeah. People keep decrying "mob justice" like there's some kind of lynch going on, but they're just exchanging info and experiences on a bloody private FB group...

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

I'm not framing it in any sort of way. And rape accusations are not just "rumours", they can destroy a person and should when true.

Your response to this is, "Justice system failed, we should circumvent it:"

If everyone did this because the courts didn't side with them, then what?

Except not everyone would ever do this so it's not a hypothetical that we even need to worry about.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

The reason civilized societies "abandon" mob justice is often because the justice system begins to do its job.

Can't say this applies to GAF, though I'd neither hesitate to call it civilized

 

[Zaru]

So what is the way ? Going through legal means didn't work

If there was an easy answer to this, we wouldn't need to discuss it.

There are two aspects to this. On one hand, policies should bring us to a state where mishandling of rape victims by the police and courts doesn't happen as often as it does. No "were you asking for it" questioning, no inappropriate handling of rape kits, no "get out of jail free card" for athletes and the rich and influential people (though this extends to other crimes than just rape).
This way, more real victims would come forward and the odds of conviction would be much higher than the low number we currently have.
That's something we can work on.

On the other hand, there's a sizable chunk of the crime category "rape" that can never and will never have a guarantee to work through the legal system.
If there's no clear evidence (signs of violence, DNA, recordings), it basically becomes a "in the head of the victim" thing which is incredibly hard to prove. It wouldn't even be 100% provable if we had a perfect lie detector.
You CAN heavily bias this in favor of the accuser, but that would end up creating so much social distrust and backlash that it's hardly worth considering.

 

[Nevasleep]

How do people think the justice system should be improved?
It's a sad situation, but notoriously hard to prove in circumstances where two people are inside a private home, or should it just be up to the jury to decide?

 

[NoName999]

There's a reason civilized societies abandoned mob justice.

 

[gaiages]

I'm a woman who is 4'11" and a lightweight.

I'd much rather know my friendly neighborhood Brock Turner's a piece of shit than to wait on systemic charges (that probably aren't coming) while having the potential to sit down and have a drink with the guy.

Essentially. It's shitty it has to come to this point, but people have to do something to defend themselves.

 

[Nepenthe]

This isn't unique to rape crimes. You can't label someone who hasn't been convicted of robbery a thief. You can't label someone who hasn't been convicted of murder a killer.

Do you take umbrage with people calling Trump or Putin all manner of shit despite the fact that neither man, to my knowledge, has been found guilty of the majority of shit GAF says they have in a court of law?

Probably not. Society labels people as cheats and killers all the time regardless of what the legal systems have to say about it, because the social contract dictates that we be allowed some level of policing others' behavior through dialogue and warnings.

Like, I know a guy who illegally picked up cars with his tow truck to junk em for money. He was, by all accounts, a thief. I didn't prosecute him for this (he didn't take my car) nor do I know anyone else who did. But if he picked up your car and I told you I knew he was a son of a bitch who did that, guarantee you'd want to shoot the messenger for not being warned about it ahead of time to protect yourself.

And that's a car. We're talking about women's bodies here.

 

[MUnited83]

This isn't unique to rape crimes. You can't label someone who hasn't been convicted of robbery a thief. You can't label someone who hasn't been convicted of murder a killer.

? You absolutely can.

Cosby is a rapist. OJ Simpson is a killer.

 

[Machina]

When did law and order become so unimportant to people?

 

[Mohonky]

I mean, it's fine to detail your experiences on social media. You see this all the time in relation to other issues, don't see why they can't talk about their sexual assault as well.

Because someone can exploit this by being vindictive and making baseless stories or accusations that can destroy someones relationship, career and leave them socially outcast?

How would you feel if someone randomly posted horrific accusations about you that are untrue and you had no means of defending yourself and affected how others treated you based on those accusations?

 

[gaiages]

How do people think the justice system should be improved?
It's a sad situation, but notoriously hard to prove in circumstances where two people are inside a private home, or should it just be up to the jury to decide?

For one, sexual assault accusations for all genders should be taken seriously by the police

Secondly, hospitals should take care of medical kits that can prove or disprove violent sexual assaults. You know, take people seriously, administer them, don't tell people you destroyed them...

Third, not shame victims

Fourth, actually have these things come to court

It's a start, at least.

 

[Nepenthe]

When did law and order become so unimportant to people?

Trump is not in league with the Russians.

 

[benicillin]

I see we are also still pretending that those accused of, or even self-admittedly guilty of, sexual assault and rape are instantly shamed out of society and don't currently occupy some of the highest offices of power in the entire world.

Many victims, most probably, are still shamed for even speaking up. If more people actually took accusations seriously this would be less of a problem.

 

[Dude Abides]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-...ape-take-justice-into-their-own-hands/8767106



I'm sorry guys and girls, women who have been sexually assaulted absolutely deserve justice, and shame on a system that allows that to not occur, especially when the accused may or may not have strong political connections, but this idea that women (and men) can gather in a private social media group and publicly name and shame a person is a terrible idea.

Making such a thing commonplace invites those with vendettas to publicly shame the person they dislike, probably without this person ever finding out, and all of a sudden this sorry sod has a heap of people online sullying their name with horrendous accusations regardless of their true guilt.

How dare women talk to each other about their experiences! And without a man's permission? The nerve!

 

[Westbahnhof]

? You absolutely can.

Cosby is a rapist.

It really depends on the place you're in.
As far as I know, statements that are okay to make in the US will make you guilty of libel in the UK.

 

[ClosingADoor]

How do people think the justice system should be improved?
It's a sad situation, but notoriously hard to prove in circumstances where two people are inside a private home, or should it just be up to the jury to decide?

They could start with not claiming evidence is destroyed in this case.

Next to that, a ton of rape allegations are not taken serious. Sexual assault is not taken serious. Yes, it can be hard to proof, but in a ton of cases there is little done to even try.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Worst case, she is going to get sued for slander and has to pay a hefty fine/go to jail.

It'd be financial compensation. Very few civil litigation cases in Australia would be so bad as to warrant a prison sentence.

That's if charges weren't pressed for criminal defamation anyway.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

? You absolutely can.

Cosby is a rapist.

This varies by country. The US has some of the least restrictive defamation laws in the world, but Australia is at the exact opposite end of the scale and still has criminal defamation laws, where even in the UK (known for relatively restrictive laws) has reduced it to purely a civil matter.

 

[eizarus]

I see we are also still pretending that those accused of, or even self-admittedly guilty of, sexual assault and rape are instantly shamed out of society and don't currently occupy some of the highest offices of power in the entire world.

Many victims, most probably, are still shamed for even speaking up. If more people actually took accusations seriously this would be less of a problem.

Some people sit on the strangest of high horses. It's nice being idealistic, but not at the cost of realistic.

 

[gaiages]

I see we are also still pretending that those accused of, or even self-admittedly guilty of, sexual assault and rape are instantly shamed out of society and don't currently occupy some of the highest offices of power in the entire world.

Many victims, most probably, are still shamed for even speaking up. If more people actually took accusations seriously this would be less of a problem.

There's even subconscious stuff at play here too... lots of people that were raped will even question if they were actually raped, or somehow signal that they wanted it, or whatever, and talk themselves out of having this traumatic experience.

Then you see cases where everything is in the woman's favor in the courts but the judge says some shit like "well I don't want to ruin this kid's future!" and dismisses it or whatever. Makes a victim really wonder if they should even bother.

 

[NoName999]

To those saying that "an innocent person could be harmed due to maliciousness"

And?

What? Should we not have prisons either? Because there are innocent people in jail right now.

Should we not have government funded financial support? Because I'm sure there's at least one person using it who doesn't need it.

Seriously, women can't talk about their traumatic experience because one of them MIGHT be lying? Might as well get rid of abused women shelters while we're at it. Might as well ban women from speaking about their rape to their FUCKING friends as well since it's a similar situation.

This "It won't be 100% effective, scrap it." is a REPUBLICAN mentality, guys.

 

[Machina]

How dare women talk to each other about their experiences! And without a man's permission? The nerve!

Scenario time: You're out somewhere shopping/partying, a random woman you've never met walks up to you and says "Hey, are you such and such?" and you say "Yes? Do I know you?" and she replies "No, but I heard from somebody that you raped them"

Pray tell how you're to react to that?

Some people sit on the strangest of high horses. It's nice being idealistic, but not at the cost of realistic.

Absolutely.

 

[Pau]

How many people would we be allowed to tell the name of our unconvicted rapist before it becomes mob justice?

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

How many people would we be allowed to tell the name of our unconvicted rapist before it becomes mob justice?

3

 

[NoName999]

Scenario time: You're out somewhere shopping/partying, a random woman you've never met walks up to you and says "Hey, are you such and such?" and you say "Yes? Do I know you?" and she replies "No, but I heard from somebody that you raped them"

Pray tell how you're to react to that?

So the conclusion is "women must never talk about it"? Well that's nice to know.

 

[Llyranor]

If it's kept private as a warning system for people to avoid dangerous people, I'm ok with it.

If it's kept private and a false claim. At worst the guy will have fewer dates. Still the lesser of two evils if it helps warn people about real rapists.

If it leaks and info is made public, the alleged perpetrators would have recourse to legal methods re: slander anyway.

 

[NimbusD]

Yep.

Dudes have more sympathy for other dudes being accused of rape than rape victims.

It definitely would be interesting to see how many people in this thread just saying 'well that sucks, but this is just wrong' without thinking beyond just the literal law, are men.

I know plenty of women who have been raped and never had cases go anywhere. It sucks, telling them they can't even speak about what happened to them publicly if they're brave enough to do so is insane to me....

Or to not be able to earn other women about an individual with a history... Remove the ability to find serial rapists... Being able to speak up is essential.

 

[MUnited83]

Scenario time: You're out somewhere shopping/partying, a random woman you've never met walks up to you and says "Hey, are you such and such?" and you say "Yes? Do I know you?" and she replies "No, but I heard from somebody that you raped them"

Pray tell how you're to react to that?



Absolutely.

Wow, so women who were raped cannot even confide with their friends? HOLY FUCKING SHIT.

Do you realize how disturbing what you just said is?

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Shame on, ladies!

Most of the women I know would participate in such a group if they're not doing so already.