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Star Citizen at $141 million of funding.

People who never heard of sunk cost fallacy or loss aversion.


I mean so was the NMS fanbase before they were betrayed.

Seriously though space sims are not that hard to do. Elite is a wonderful game, and it didn't need to pay Hamill $3 million for voice acting/mo-cap or anything!

Yeah man, I just knocked out a build of my new open galaxy space sim, Citizens of the Stars. Check it out on early access and game preview. So easy. Only took me a week starting from scratch.

do you think about what you post before you hit submit? Like actually think for a good few minutes not just three seconds of "yeah that sounds legit"
 

~Cross~

Member
Shouldn't we always hope for all games to be as good as possible? Why would you want a game to be not good? You might want to play it one day

Honestly, I would be a whole lot less critical with them if they were wasting a publishers money or some venture capitalist.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
Do we count all of GTAV's sales as "budget" for GTAO? We're really blurring the lines between budget and sales at this point. If they released the game tomorrow they're not selling ten million the first day because so many players have already bought the game.
 

alt27

Member
This must be sarcasm. Please.

Nope , from people who have been playing the alpha, stating thats it nothing new or special, and basically been done before.

Of course they have room to expand as it just an alpha but theres nothing 'amazing' here.
 

True Fire

Member
There's no way in hell this game will live up to its expectations.

I find that recently gamers have had sky high expectations for video games. It can't be delayed too long or it's a bomba, but if developers have to cut content to meet the release date it's also a bomba.

This is why I'm also worried about Cyberpunk 2077. People are starting to expect "super" video games--games that have ridiculously inflated budgets and hundreds upon hundreds of hours of content. It's just not feasible.
 

PlayerOne

Banned
if those backers collectively bought stocks or other funds by this time they probably would have made more money by now.
 

Spirited

Mine is pretty and pink
"if it can live up to expectations..." Well if this thread and EVERY OTHER SC THREAD to go by everyones expectations seems to be that the game is shit, will never be released and devs sued to hell and back.

So how is this going to be the next NMS if the expectations is exactly reversed to that situation?
 

Spirited

Mine is pretty and pink
There's no way in hell this game will live up to its expectations.

I find that recently gamers have had sky high expectations for video games. It can't be delayed too long or it's a bomba, but if developers have to cut content to meet the release date it's also a bomba.

This is why I'm also worried about Cyberpunk 2077. People are starting to expect "super" video games--games that have ridiculously inflated budgets and hundreds upon hundreds of hours of content. It's just not feasible.

Wut? How is Cyberpunk 2070 different from every other game that the gaming community likes to hype before release? It happens to a lot of games and it's even more prevelant among console exclusives where it seems like every second game is the second coming of christ before release.
 

SRTtoZ

Member
I'm all for this game and backed it a longgg time ago for $140 but I'm pretty certain they need to keep the money coming in because of how much they push the ship sales every single event. I figured at this point the ship sales would take a backseat to everything else but gotta keep the development going.
 
You guys do know that they don't actually have 141 million dollars all at once right? that's accumulated gross over 3 to 4 years. Then you deduct whatever they've spent to hire devs, equipment, server cost, new offices, furniture, salaries.
 

K.Jack

Knowledge is power, guard it well
I'm all for this game and backed it a longgg time ago for $140 but I'm pretty certain they need to keep the money coming in because of how much they push the ship sales every single event. I figured at this point the ship sales would take a backseat to everything else but gotta keep the development going.

CIG knows that a sizable portion of the base will buy everything that goes up for sale. Those expensive fucking $50+ missiles are proof of that.

At this point, it'd be dumb to stop selling shit, even if they're set on money. The rabid whales of the SC fanbase have lost the plot.
 

Grief.exe

Member
I get the impression that they are certainly attempting to live up to that budget. In many respects, this is shaping up to be a AAA(A) release between the voice actors, animations, visuals, connectivity, it's a truly impressive undertaking.

The problem lies in trying to piece together all of these individual parts into a cohesive game.
 

Adree

Member
CIG knows that a sizable portion of the base will buy everything that goes up for sale. Those expensive fucking $50+ missiles are proof of that.

At this point, it'd be dumb to stop selling shit, even if they're set on money. The rabid whales of the SC fanbase have lost the plot.

They poke the whales too much they might want a massive refund though.
 
Wut? How is Cyberpunk 2070 different from every other game that the gaming community likes to hype before release? It happens to a lot of games and it's even more prevelant among console exclusives where it seems like every second game is the second coming of christ before release.

Cyberpunk is being made by a developer with a proven track record. It could still turn out to be shit but I wouldn't be too worried about it just yet.
 
You guys do know that they don't actually have 141 million dollars all at once right? that's accumulated gross over 3 to 4 years. Then you deduct whatever they've spent to hire devs, equipment, server cost, new offices, furniture, salaries.

Who said they had 141 million dollars at once? Also, why would you deduct that stuff? That's all factored into development cost, and the vast majority of that 141 million will be used for development. If not all of it plus more.
 

Trickster

Member
This must be sarcasm. Please.

We obviously can't speak to how the game will be once it's finished (or the money dries up eventually). But right now the game doesn't look great.

Yes they show some things in development that you can see would be awesome if done correctly. But even those presentation are often riddled with bugs because they keep showing things that are still nowhere near completion.

I think most people agree that on paper, Star Citizen sounds like one of the best games ever. So far however, the execution doesn't really come close to matching the vision.
 

KKRT00

Member
We obviously can't speak to how the game will be once it's finished (or the money dries up eventually). But right now the game doesn't look great.
But its already fun ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV-gHdBRZa4

----
This isn't R&D, this is Project Management. As someone who manages large, complex projects for a living the response you just gave would never fly in any of our meetings. The very core of successfully managing projects is determining who does what by when. By removing the "when", they've essentially given up any semblance of respectable PMing.
Yeah, completely disagree. I also work on a complex project.
We have a scheduled released of version 2.1 for end of march, the planning included features that will never make to this version, version will be delayed probably till end of April and we will be doing a lot of new functionalities that we did not plan.
It is because we have fucked up project management? No, its because had sick leaves, additional support and additional client requests that had to be done ASAP that we could not predict.

Do You really think that CIG would not preferred to have something more predictable?
How can you even estimate schedule of something like Alpha 3.0 properly when the core tech is still being done and this core tech was never done before. What if the functionality you thought would take 2 months, took 4 months due and because this was a prerequisite to some other tech, it it delayed everything by 2 months or more.
What if after implementing something you clearly see it does not work and need to rework it and other system depends on it?
What if you did not know that you need to do some additional tech, because you know, no one have done something like that before and you dont point of reference?


----
Nope , from people who have been playing the alpha, stating thats it nothing new or special, and basically been done before.

Of course they have room to expand as it just an alpha but theres nothing 'amazing' here.

Where?! Give me title, i want to play that game.
 

joecanada

Member
I disagree with those saying it'll either be amazing or a massive failure. We saw with kingdoms of amalur that the studio can release a solid game while working on another bigger project that becomes a massive failure.

It's possible they release it and it's say a solid 7/10 but doesn't have everything completed and then they get mired in bugs and updates and it sits at a 7/10 forever.

Anything is still possible
 
This isn't R&D, this is Project Management. As someone who manages large, complex projects for a living the response you just gave would never fly in any of our meetings. The very core of successfully managing projects is determining who does what by when. By removing the "when", they've essentially given up any semblance of respectable PMing.

Agreed.

Any change in scope should have yielded a recalculation of all baselines.

The fact that work packages marked as done, are being reworked (flight models, certain ship models) indicates poor project management.

Explaining every criticism by saying that game development is hard is frankly tiring at the moment.

You two should check out Agile. Also a bit more on the complexities of software development and the concept of a minimum viable product. Change and rework is okay. Spending hours replanning baselines all the time is not - it's a waste of time (oversimplified point of view - but largely right when there's no fixed delivery date).

"The Phoenix Project" book is an amazing, accessible place to start. It's fairly devops oriented but teaches you a lot very quickly.
 
I hope its not a failure.

Also damn SWTOR is the most expensive game ever made? That game was trash imo lol. A WoW clone with SW skin. I hope star citizen fares better.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
You two should check out Agile. Also a bit more on the complexities of software development and the concept of a minimum viable product. Change and rework is okay. Spending hours replanning baselines all the time is not - it's a waste of time (oversimplified point of view - but largely right when there's no fixed delivery date).

"The Phoenix Project" book is an amazing, accessible place to start. It's fairly devops oriented but teaches you a lot very quickly.

To be fair, Agile values communication and learning from iterations quickly. You should. It often find out that your key estimates double at the end of the original deadline. Thanks for the book suggestion though.

Also, Agile is a development not a management philosophy IMHO.
 
2016 saw the release of two games that had been in development for more than 10 years and they both turned out better than I had personally feared. The writing has been on the wall for more than 2 decades that game development would continue to be more time consuming and costly as technology advanced, so I am not that we're seeing game cost at the scope of SC.

Video Game development is a iterative process- Sometimes entire systems needs to be scrapped or overhauled. It feels like a major waste of time, but it is what goes on behind closed doors in nearly any major production you can think of. During this game development backers get to be the investors, and they get an insight into the frustration of a creative studio(s) asking for more; more; more; more. It's easy to lament big publishers for shutting down promising games or backing "safe boring titles" like COD, but in the end they want to see a return investment of the money they put on the table. It's not even about the product for them. It's about "where is my fucking money?"


The question of SCs development is (to me) really a question about trying to go all in and getting as close to the original vision as possible. The vision for Star Citizen is that they want to make a First Person Universe and with it comes a MMO world, a Space Sim, a MMOFPS and all the trappings that tie the game together. It's not been done before and because they are aiming for an almost absurd level of attention to detail.
Emblematic of this is how they've done First-Third Person switching. You'd think that would be easy, but since the game needs to accommodate for players seamless switching, and being visible from the cockpit and by other players, they couldn't do the "cheating" that other games have done. So the achieve this actual 1:1 transition between the animations in first and third person view, they've had to spend a lot of time, a lot of resources and a lot of money on doing something that the casual gamer will likely take for granted and not even realize. If you where on a budget from your investor, the investor would have said "No. You cannot do that. Find another solution. Fake it. We will not fund something like this" and the developer would have gone back to the drawing board trying to work a compromise or another solution. That is the difference between No Mans Sky and Star Citizen. Star Citizen doesn't have Sony to say "Stop. We're shipping this game in 2 months. No more."
I don't think SCs development is a feature creep scam meant to extort players. I'd be the shittiest idea for getting rich possible ever, considering their massive development team is burning through all the money just keeping things operational. If Chris Roberts fails to make this game a success he will not be laughing to the bank or have anything to show for it. I don't think there is a precedent to entertain thoughts along these lines.
That doesn't mean the games creative direction and project management cannot be criticiqued and discussed however. It boils down to if one believes that his vision should be reigned in or not.
I think there are arguments on both sides of the argument that are compelling, but in the end I just hope it will be a good game. I'm not a backer. I follow the game casually and only because of the controversy. Space Sims are not my thing so I've looked at if the Persistent MMO aspects have anything for me. I'm interested in seeing the game progress- and seeing the games vision take shape.

If the game becomes a good game, I think it would have incredible long legs (like Crysis) and because of its MMO aspect. I can see the appeal why people with a disposable income who love sci-fi would geek out of having a unique ship as an early backer that nobody else will have. The level of detail in them is astounding. It would be really fun to play the game for 10+ years with unique vehicles that truly nobody else has. Of course these ships take forever to make and it slows down the speed of development for everyone else.
SC is a very interesting project to follow. I am rooting for them! I like to see brave and ambitious games succeed and I think if they can nail it. If they can make it a functional game that ties all the game elements within in it together, then it could be great. It's still very rough, but many games only come together towards the end of development so we will have to see.
SC might very well be a 10-plus year project or more. It's possible. The size and scope of this project is so out of what anyone has ever tried to do before.



I hope its not a failure.

Also damn SWTOR is the most expensive game ever made? That game was trash imo lol. A WoW clone with SW skin. I hope star citizen fares better.

SWTOR got baited early on. Someone made a bad decision by choosing the HeroEngine. Contractors hyped the fuck out of it and marketed it well. Someone at EA and Bioware went ahead, and by the time they realized that this engine was garbage and a nightmare to work in, it was already too late. SWTOR is still paying for it today.
Another thing to remember is that games like SWTOR is massive. It really is KOTOR 3,4,5,6,7,8 and so on. You do not notice it because it's spread thin- You play one character class so you don't get the see the entire game of the other classes. This means that the game has to quadruple its resources to make it seem like it's a weighted game.
In hindsight it was a mistake to opt for this level of cut scene quality in a game- In a on-demand online game. Rigging, directing and executing and narrating and planning 3d cinematics with lots of complex threads is extremely time consuming- On top of everything else they have to do.

What Bioware should have done is gone for a more simple story execution- They could have had stylized 2D art cinematics with some form of inner narrator. That would have saved them a lot of money and a lot of trouble and it would have given them so much more time to focus on the gameplay aspects of running the game.
Despite this, the game is immensely popular. It's among the top 10-most profitible MMOs and many many people are still playing. I'm really surprised how well its doing. The new movies is a marketing campaign for the game giving it a second wind.
 
UrHRN1e.jpg


It is amazing how little this project delivers for how much money it gets. Last year they delivered a few ships, clothes shopping and one of the worst shooter experiences around, where bullets go through walls, something that Jim Sterling would laugh at for being a $15 Steam Greenlight thing.

QEoNT7T.jpg


There are still no core mechanics beyond combat despite the game being in its fifth year of development. They're basically not working on the Persistent Universe - the part of the game people are spending all this money on - at all, only on Chris Roberts get-back-into-Hollywood project. And that's not making significant progress because they keep throwing out assets and redoing them, they recently revealed they'd thrown out the entire work of a contractor Streamline Studios and were redoing everything for the graphics arms race, which doesn't bode well.
 
UrHRN1e.jpg


It is amazing how little this project delivers for how much money it gets. Last year they delivered a few ships, clothes shopping and one of the worst shooter experiences around, where bullets go through walls, something that Jim Sterling would laugh at for being a $15 Steam Greenlight thing.

QEoNT7T.jpg


There are still no core mechanics beyond combat despite the game being in its fifth year of development. They're basically not working on the Persistent Universe - the part of the game people are spending all this money on - at all, only on Chris Roberts get-back-into-Hollywood project. And that's not making significant progress because they keep throwing out assets and redoing them, they recently revealed they'd thrown out the entire work of a contractor Streamline Studios and were redoing everything for the graphics arms race, which doesn't bode well.

Can you clarify how long they are in "full" development and not a skeleton team laying down the basic engine framework?
 

WaterAstro

Member
I'm expecting a slowdown in funding after they missed showing the squad42 demo. I am guessing that 3.0 release and the demo for Swiss42 will now be pushed back perhaps to a few months from now. And there will be blood.
But, on the other hand, no one has made a game with this amount of fidelity, scope and technology. Wether it is fun or not, no one else will be able to surpass their achievements.

They did. It's called Freelancer. And once they couldn't achieve their goals because of lack of funding, they sold it to Microsoft, Chris Roberts bailed before it was finished, and the original design for the game was never realized.
 
They did. It's called Freelancer. And once they couldn't achieve their goals because of lack of funding, they sold it to Microsoft, Chris Roberts bailed before it was finished, and the original design for the game was never realized.

Not really. FL was limited by the tech of the time, not just CR's inexperience and runaway ambition. It was unique and a lot of fun anyways.
SC has tech that is lightyears away from every other studio, and innovating in ways that make Naughty Dog look like they are streets behind. I mean, a seamless multi-planetary solar system with unique physics grid for each vessel and location that is streamed in dynamically. And lets not even get into the planetary technology.
But... BUT, they have to release it. The 3.0 client will be the make-or-break event. If it gets out as shown in videos, CIG will have it all worth it. If not... expect another Derek Smart fable of ruinous ambition.
 

Harmen

Member
Please someone educate me about math and game development finance but developers get 0 from that $141m?

No expert, but I would assume they get paid for their jobs like with any project. And I also assume this one has got quite the development team in terms of size (many workhours), which requires a large pool of money.
 

Galava

Member
It's funny how people think moer money means faster development. "140million should be enough to finish everything this year!" LoL Squadron 42 NEEDS to be released this year, along with 3.0. By end of year we will have 4.0 on the radar, but don't think it will release.

SQ42 will give CIG the trust they need, releasing a full single-player game is the only way at this point to silence those naysayers.

So what is this game suppose to be anyways? MMO, Single Player RPG, Air combat game?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1155452
 

Sesuadra

Unconfirmed Member
Minus my $110. I got a refund because I primarily wanted Squadron 42 which probably isn't coming until 2018 or 2019 with all this feature creep. However, I didn't pay close enough attention to my account to know if I got all my money back since they close your account and can't look at it (my account said something about ~$200, yet I only got $110 back, but I don't remember spending nearly 200 ;p). So be careful about that, as I did an initial pledge but also bought a couple of upgrades over the years and stupid paypal wont let me search more than a year back.

how did you do that o_O? how did you get a refund after so many years?
 

wildfire

Banned
This game is the next No Man's Sky.

The potential for disappointment is high but it will be totally different from No Man's Sky.

Hello Games was either vague or bullshitting. Robert's Space Industry suffers from CCP Games syndrome. They keep on adding new shit before refining what they built so far. CCP kept on doing this because they loved moving onto new projects and based on some videos I've seen the core leadership pf RSI they have that problem and a few more.
 

ordrin

Member
the game, on paper, sounds amazing and ill definitely play it.

its just there doesnt seem to be any end to the development phase, and im certainly not going to add to that 100+million dollars only to have to wait until 2019 or more to play the full, complete game.

they just need to content lock at some point and then add more as free patches/dlc later.
instead chris is trying to make it perfect from the off, which i feel is an impossible thing to achieve.

it reminds me of ark development, which also just seems to go on and on with no end in sight and the game being ever more bloated as the devs keep adding and adding.
 

Ganrob

Neo Member
This is the first game I've seen (bet there are others) whose graphics have aged during development. Like, it was awesome at first and a few years later is standard and will soon be too outdated.
 

dumbo

Member
Can you clarify how long they are in "full" development and not a skeleton team laying down the basic engine framework?

In 2013 they apparently had 80 in-house staff and were using a few different external development teams for "large" module development (e.g. the entire FPS module was originally outsourced). By the end of 2015, they'd cancelled some of the external development, and it was around 270 in-house.

They have been building the 'basic engine framework' alongside the game & assets.
 

~Cross~

Member
Can you clarify how long they are in "full" development and not a skeleton team laying down the basic engine framework?

I love how the narrative continues to change for the game. Initially Chris mentioned that work started on the game in 2011 and that thanks to that they'll be able to get SQ42 out by 2014. Anything after that was not ideal.

Now the "work started in 2011" narrative that was supposed to bring confidence to the scheme is an actual liability because it pushes the timeline to the left. Now development actually started in early 2013. Soon people will start saying development actually started in 2015-2016 when the studios got done crunching to push out 2.0 before they could concentrate on the other parts of the game.

In 2013 they apparently had 80 in-house staff and were using a few different external development teams for "large" module development (e.g. the entire FPS module was originally outsourced). By the end of 2015, they'd cancelled some of the external development, and it was around 270 in-house.

They have been building the 'basic engine framework' alongside the game & assets.
Chris whole schtick during the first big funding boom was that the more money they had the faster they could get EVERYTHING out. Because everything was modular and finally integrate effortlessly at the end. They could keep hiring contractors to do things.

Of course this didn't work out at all. Most of the work done by illfonic was scrapped. The length of game development has stretched out so much that they are entering the DNF cycle of having to rework your assets because whats being produced now is a higher quality than what was produced before, so those assets need to be reworked again.
 

Chumley

Banned
People still optimistic about this nightmare crack me up. They're going to declare this thing "finished" in a fucked up broken state with disparate parts because actually achieving even a quarter of what they outlined all those years ago is not going to happen. I payed at the $45 level two years ago and what's in the Alpha right now does not fill me with any hope at all, it's all so broken and janky that just getting the existing content to a fully polished state seems like it would take a year minimum.
 
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