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[El_Tiguere]

The death of the liberal class

Thank you. Amazing still to see so many here not being attuned to the current anti-elite mood of the country (irregardless of Trump voters being duped into thinking he was anti-elite). There was a great display recently that marks the difference between the current elite Democrats, and the progressive Bernie wing.

But the assault by the corporate state on the democratic state has claimed the liberal class as one of its victims. Corporate power forgot that the liberal class, when it functions, gives legitimacy to the power elite. And reducing the liberal class to courtiers or mandarins, who have nothing to offer but empty rhetoric, shuts off this safety valve and forces discontent to find other outlets that often end in violence. The inability of the liberal class to acknowledge that corporations have wrested power from the hands of citizens, that the Constitution and its guarantees of personal liberty have become irrelevant, and that the phrase consent of the governed is meaningless, has left it speaking and acting in ways that no longer correspond to reality. It has lent its voice to hollow acts of political theater, and the pretense that democratic debate and choice continue to exist.

Nothing worse than "let's pander to white rural voters now" political theater than what we saw from the Democrat response to Trump's latest speech to Congress. It was cringe-worthy and painful to think the Democrats want to go this route:

Small Town old dude Steven Beshear.... because Murika!

Versus a forceful response that so many Americans can relate to:

Bernie Sanders response to speech.

 

[Pizza]

We should change the requirements for who is allowed to run for president

I feel like the big two parties are both just playing a game while "lowkey" caving to corporate interests in the background

They're also too big to fail, at this point

Third parties should be a viable option, but the monetary barrier to entry is enough to stop most people, not to mention the other hoops one has to jump through

 

[water_wendi]

Small Town old dude Steven Beshear.... because Murika!

The beginning of this is unreal. "I'm a proud Democrat but first and foremost im a proud Republican. And Democrat. And mostly American."

 

[aeolist]

This attitude just lost an election.

the funny part is when it loses in 2018 the response will be anger at these same people.

either you want them to leave the party or you don't. if you do then don't be shocked when they don't vote for your candidate.

 

[Autoignition]

Bernie supporters, "true progressives", leftists, social democrats, democratic socialists; this is what democrats think of you. When you criticize their corporate policies, they gaslight you and reduce your concerns to a "purity test". If you try to 'work within the system' and shift the party to the left with primary challenges, you're a "shithead". It's time to abandon ship. Dems only want leftists in their party if they can tame you and keep you voting for corporate candidates.

Activism is the only way you're going to see the change you want. The electoral system is designed to drain the energy out of movements without dramatically altering the status quo.

Out of the party and into the streets.

Real talk, if this party doesn't stand for the same ideals that you do, why the hell do you want to be in it so badly? Or think that you SHOULD be in it? It's our party. If you don't like what we have to offer, you don't need to be here. Especially if your angle is to just attack and insult everyone who's in it.

Do you honestly think that the "progressive" branch of the Dem party is new? This is a tale as old as time. And you guys don't have the votes or the organizing power to create a new party, otherwise you'd have done it already. This is why this problem keeps popping up: because you guys won't go away, because you can't.

And stop calling me a corporatist or trying to claim that I'm not in the bottom 90% of the country. The "liberal elite" myth has got to stop. I was raised by a single mom who had to declare bankruptcy when I was 5. I don't even work in the private sector, and I've never made more than $12/hr in my life. I live paycheck to paycheck, and I might die without the ACA.

Don't brush me off as "corporatist" just because I don't bend over backwards to cater to "progressives." I am not the elite. I just don't like the smell of your political crap.

 

[royalan]

Real talk, if this party doesn't stand for the same ideals that you do, why the hell do you want to be in it so badly? Or think that you SHOULD be in it? It's our party. If you don't like what we have to offer, you don't need to be here. Especially if your angle is to just attack and insult everyone who's in it.

Do you honestly think that the "progressive" branch of the Dem party is new? This is a tale as old as time. And you guys don't have the votes or the organizing power to create a new party, otherwise you'd have done it already. This is why this problem keeps popping up: because you guys won't go away, because you can't.

And stop calling me a corporatist or trying to claim that I'm not in the bottom 90% of the country. The "liberal elite" myth has got to stop. I was raised by a single mom who had to declare bankruptcy when I was 5. I don't even work in the private sector, and I've never made more than $12/hr in my life. I live paycheck to paycheck, and I might die without the ACA.

Don't brush me off as "corporatist" just because I don't bend over backwards to cater to "progressives." I am not the elite. I just don't like the smell of your political crap.

You better tell it! Every word.

Raised by a single mother as well. Shit, if I was only half as elite as they claim...

 

[Maledict]

We should change the requirements for who is allowed to run for president

I feel like the big two parties are both just playing a game while "lowkey" caving to corporate interests in the background

They're also too big to fail, at this point

Third parties should be a viable option, but the monetary barrier to entry is enough to stop most people, not to mention the other hoops one has to jump through

That has nothing to do with why you only have two parties. If you removed every cent from American politics and allowed anyone to stand, you would still end up with two parties. The system is designed that way - a first past the post, winner takes all presidential system which requires you to get a majority of electors college votes is mathematically proven to always end up with two parties.

You need to make major changes to how Americans vote and how you chose presidents before you get more than two parties, and it's nothing to do with money in politics at all.

 

[excelsiorlef]

We should change the requirements for who is allowed to run for president

I feel like the big two parties are both just playing a game while "lowkey" caving to corporate interests in the background

They're also too big to fail, at this point

Third parties should be a viable option, but the monetary barrier to entry is enough to stop most people, not to mention the other hoops one has to jump through

Third parties are a losing proposition because there's a Constitutional requirement that the winning candidate have a majority of the EC votes. A strong three party race will always without fail result in a plurality winner... meaning the pick for the Presidency goes to the House... the House which will not be a majority third party controlled anyway.

You want a viable alternative build it from the downticket up, takeover the House and Sebate first. Every 4 years is not how you build a party.

 

[Dude Abides]

Yeah, maybe next time you'll get 25% for single payer health care in a referendum instead of 21% in a swing state.

Primary challenges to Democrat's who are far out of step within their state are fine. go after Dianne Feinstein with my full support. But, you're not going to get a socialist elected in West Virginia. The only thing knocking Joe Manchin out in the Democratic Primary is make sure his Republican opponent gets 80% in the general.

Kame sennin doesn't care about single payer. He cares about torching limos.

Like, literally. That's what he thinks is effective political action.

 

[aeolist]

You better tell it! Every word.

Raised by a single mother as well. Shit, if I was only half as elite as they claim...

nobody's accusing you two of being oligarchs, you're just unpaid stooges

 

[Suikoguy]

nobody's accusing you two of being oligarchs, you're just unpaid stooges

err.. wow.
I think it's time this thread was closed.

 

[jack_package_200]

err.. wow.
I think it's time this thread was closed.

Yeah...there isn't really any coming back from a remark like that. Jeez

 

[pigeon]

Protip: giving progressives even more encouragement to leave the Democratic Party isn't a good strategy if you want to grow the Democratic Party.

Yeah, but nobody's doing that. On the other hand, encouraging tankies to leave the Democratic Party is just good sense.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yeah, but nobody's doing that. On the other hand, encouraging tankies to leave the Democratic Party is just good sense.

The green party's that way.

Green party door's open. See you.

Go tell brogressives to fuck off.

People are doing it not just on gaf, but all around the country. Maintaining and growing a big left of center tent is important for the Democrats' resurgence, and throwing out portions of the progressive base isn't going to help, especially when those progressive policies will only become more and more popular (and necessary) in the future.

If the DNC still can't figure out how to do that, then they're more incompetent than I give them credit for.

 

[pigeon]

People are doing it not just on gaf, but all around the country. Maintaining and growing a big left of center tent is important for the Democrats' resurgence, and throwing out portions of the progressive base isn't going to help, especially when those progressive policies will only become more and more popular (and necessary) in the future.

People who are more interested in critiquing Hillary than opposing white supremacy aren't left of center or progressive.

 

[kame-sennin]

Tired of so-called "progressives" and their threats. Waaah! If you don't give us exactly what we want, exactly when we want it, every freaking time, we're going to leave the party! Fuck compromise and coalitions!

The green party's that way.

I'm not a progressive, and I left the party in 2007. I abandoned electoral politics in 2009.

 

[aeolist]

People who are more interested in critiquing Hillary than opposing white supremacy aren't left of center or progressive.

it's the same thing. people are critiquing centrist establishment democratic policy and politicians because they are proven losers against the reactionary white nationalists we want to kick out of office.

 

[Regulus Tera]

This thread is a microcosm of why the Democratoc party is in disarray

 

[kame-sennin]

Real talk, if this party doesn't stand for the same ideals that you do, why the hell do you want to be in it so badly? Or think that you SHOULD be in it? It's our party. If you don't like what we have to offer, you don't need to be here. Especially if your angle is to just attack and insult everyone who's in it.

I'm not a democrat, I left the party ages ago. In a sense, I agree with you and I think more leftists should take your advice.

Do you honestly think that the "progressive" branch of the Dem party is new? This is a tale as old as time. And you guys don't have the votes or the organizing power to create a new party, otherwise you'd have done it already. This is why this problem keeps popping up: because you guys won't go away, because you can't.

The point I'm actually making is in the quote above. The centrist/neoliberal wing of the party wants the leftists in the party to "go away". I'm arguing that they should.

And stop calling me a corporatist or trying to claim that I'm not in the bottom 90% of the country. The "liberal elite" myth has got to stop. I was raised by a single mom who had to declare bankruptcy when I was 5. I don't even work in the private sector, and I've never made more than $12/hr in my life.

So then you're just a class traitor? How is that better?

Kame sennin doesn't care about single payer. He cares about torching limos.

 

[royalan]

it's the same thing. people are critiquing centrist establishment democratic policy and politicians because they are proven losers against the reactionary white nationalists we want to kick out of office.

If they're the proven losers...Who on the left are the winners again?

 

[wildfire]

it's the same thing. people are critiquing centrist establishment democratic policy and politicians because they are proven losers against the reactionary white nationalists we want to kick out of office.

This thread is a microcosm of why the Democratoc party is in disarray

Quoting both for truthiness.

 

[pigeon]

For the record, I don't think kame-sennin should go away, he's clearly part of the national popular front. Also you can't really be mad at the radical socialists and anarchists for saying for years that America was never actually going to give up white supremacy, because, I mean.

It's the people who want to normalize white supremacy in pursuit of free college that I don't think are fellow travelers.

 

[aeolist]

If they're the proven losers...Who on the left are the winners again?

and again, what is your ideal here then? if the left are losers and the centrists are losers... do we move right? is that what you want?

and this is ignoring the fact that both halves of the party have lost for completely different reasons. centrists have had all of the money and resources in the world since the 60s and have gotten us where we are now so i don't really see them as being equivalent.

personally i think socialism is the answer because it's the only morally correct solution, but you do you.

 

[royalan]

So then you're just a class traitor? How is that better?

WTF is a class traitor?

 

[wildfire]

If they're the proven losers...Who on the left are the winners again?

Hillary lost against the easiest opponent she had. Her campaign teams mistakes are quite varied and many of which actually don't even touch on policy issues but simply the way her messages were being sent out. So it's not necessarily true moving leftward is the way to go but it still is currently a valid option because it still is among the few reasons Hillary lost. Donald Trump himself was selling some leftist ideas even though like any good conman who wouldn't deliver on what he was selling. There are still republican folks who still mutter under their breathes that if he fucks up it's because he's been trying to insert a liberal agenda into their doctrine.

 

[pigeon]

Donald Trump himself was selling some leftist ideas even though like any good conman who wouldn't deliver on what he was selling.

The normalization of white supremacy continues apace among people who claim to be on the left.

 

[royalan]

Hillary lost against the easiest opponent she had. Her campaign teams mistakes are quite varied and many of which actually don't even touch on policy issues but simply the way her messages were being sent out. So it's not necessarily true moving leftward is the way to go but it still is currently a valid option because it still is among the few reasons Hillary lost. Donald Trump himself was selling some leftist ideas even though like any good conman who wouldn't deliver on what he was selling. There are still republican folks who still mutter under their breathes that if he fucks up it's because he's been trying to insert a liberal agenda into their doctrine.

If we're going to have a chance in 2018/20 we have to dispell the notion that Trump was an easy opponent. He wasn't. He bulldozed everyone. Everyone.

It really bothers me at this point when people STILL, after everything we've seen, try to claim that Trump should have been easy. And not as a Hillary supporter, but as a black person. Because I, and a lot of minorities, understand very intimately the power of white fear, and how effectively he was tapping into it.

 

[Boney]

It's the people who want to normalize white supremacy in pursuit of free college that I don't think are fellow travelers.

Actually, progressives just want free college for white people.
I hear they also like to eat babies.

 

[aeolist]

If we're going to have a chance in 2018/20 we have to dispell the notion that Trump was an easy opponent. He wasn't. He bulldozed everyone. Everyone.

It really bothers me at this point when people STILL, after everything we've seen, try to claim that Trump should have been easy. And not as a Hillary supporter, but as a black person. Because I, and a lot of minorities, understand very intimately the power of white fear, and how effectively he was tapping into it.

he and hillary had the worst favorability numbers of any major party candidates in the history of polling records

she absolutely should have crushed him, that she didn't is damning

 

[pigeon]

If we're going to have a chance in 2018/20 we have to dispell the notion that Trump was an easy opponent. He wasn't. He bulldozed everyone. Everyone.

It really bothers me at this point when people STILL, after everything we've seen, try to claim that Trump should have been easy. And not as a Hillary supporter, but as a black person. Because I, and a lot of minorities, understand very intimately the power of white fear, and how effectively he was tapping into it.

It makes perfect sense, since racism isn't real, Trump should've lost, therefore Hillary was a terrible candidate, therefore Bernie Sanders

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

Why is this still going on? Not a lot of ad talk, anyway.

 

[royalan]

he and hillary had the worst favorability numbers of any major party candidates in the history of polling records

she absolutely should have crushed him, that she didn't is damning

Explain Kasich

 

[pigeon]

Actually, progressives just want free college for white people.
I hear they also like to eat babies.

Glad you have enough time to snark at me but not enough time to criticize the people in this thread normalizing white supremacy!

 

[kirblar]

We should change the requirements for who is allowed to run for president

I feel like the big two parties are both just playing a game while "lowkey" caving to corporate interests in the background

They're also too big to fail, at this point

Third parties should be a viable option, but the monetary barrier to entry is enough to stop most people, not to mention the other hoops one has to jump through

If the Dems were to ban repeat candidates from the primaries it would likely solve a number of issues they've had with Gore/Hillary-type candidates.

 

[Autoignition]

So then you're just a class traitor? How is that better?

1. I don't even know what that means.

2. Can we stop the name-calling in this thread? Like, for real, this is getting to be unnecessary and ridiculous.

3. It's almost like people have several different identities and value them all in different proportions or something. My identity isn't tied to my socioeconomic status, nor is it the thing I feel most passionately about in politics. We don't live in a caste system, and political affiliations are not split along lines of income. Everyone has their own pet causes. Yours happens to be the economy. Mine isn't. If I'm a "traitor" to you, then maybe it's time you left your own bubble.

Honestly, this thread really needs to be closed.

 

[jack_package_200]

Wtf is a class traitor?

 

[big ander]

If we're going to have a chance in 2018/20 we have to dispell the notion that Trump was an easy opponent. He wasn't. He bulldozed everyone. Everyone.

It really bothers me at this point when people STILL, after everything we've seen, try to claim that Trump should have been easy. And not as a Hillary supporter, but as a black person. Because I, and a lot of minorities, understand very intimately the power of white fear, and how effectively he was tapping into it.

This is a good point. I'm guilty of saying this, that beating trump should've been easy, but I don't mean that he ran a bad campaign. He ran a fantastic campaign, just one that could have hypothetically been countered with the right strategy, I think. And I think that optimistically: that had his opponent had clear messaging on plans for progressive policies, spineless white people who voted for him and told themselves "he sounds racist but I'M not I just don't trust her" might not have voted for him. That optimism is likely misplaced to a degree, there are way more people willing to back white supremacist figures than I would like to think about, but I don't think it's totally unwarranted.

Or, I dunno, maybe the country is hopelessly intractably racist and we're fucking doomed.

Wtf is a class traitor?

The person who raises their hand at the end of class to remind the professor they didn't collect the homework

 

[sugarhigh4242]

WTF is a class traitor?

A class traitor is a member of a class who purposefully rejects an action which requires solidarity to be successful. A classic example is a scab. The political power of a strike depends on shutting down production such that the lost profits force the boss to negotiate. In such a situation, anyone who works has chosen the side of the boss over the workers and is therefore a "class traitor", because he is undermining the efforts of his class.

Under slavery, there was a concept of a "native informant". This is a person whom the master trusts to impart information from above to the slaves below. You can see a similar phenomenon in Half Life 2 where Dr Breen provides a human face for the nefarious agenda of the alien Combine. This is another example of betraying one's class (humans).

 

[wildfire]

If we're going to have a chance in 2018/20 we have to dispell the notion that Trump was an easy opponent. He wasn't. He bulldozed everyone. Everyone.

It really bothers me at this point when people STILL, after everything we've seen, try to claim that Trump should have been easy. And not as a Hillary supporter, but as a black person. Because I, and a lot of minorities, understand very intimately the power of white fear, and how effectively he was tapping into it.

As someone who actually understood why Trump was successful in real time during the Republican primary I'm not taking for granted Trump's strong suits. I assumed Hillary was doing the same shit Obama did to secure his presidency but she couldn't do basic shit Al Gore did and it wasn't revealed until a month away. Hillary should have won if she did what she supposed to do but she failed to do that in addition to failing at being a strong enough champion for leftist principles.

Changes are necessary instead of repeating the same mistakes she and her team made. We could go many different ways but I would prefer the next candidate to be a lot more left leaning and still doing the same outreach work in red and purple states that kept some red leaning states as blue victories and to build a foundation in improving the political climate in red states in the following Congressional campaign.

 

[pigeon]

A class traitor is a member of a class who purposefully rejects an action which requires solidarity to be successful. A classic example is a scab. The political power of a strike depends on shutting down production such that the lost profits force the boss to negotiate. In such a situation, anyone who works has chosen the side of the boss over the workers and is therefore a "class traitor", because he is undermining the efforts of his class.

Under slavery, there was a concept of a "native informant". This is a person whom the master trusts to impart information from above to the slaves below. You can see a similar phenomenon in Half Life 2 where Dr Breen provides a human face for the nefarious agenda of the alien Combine. This is another example of betraying one's class (humans).

Another good example would be a person who claims to advocate for socialism but believes that it would be appropriate to downplay or normalize white supremacy in order to achieve it, sacrificing the safety of millions of working-class people.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

A class traitor is a member of a class who purposefully rejects an action which requires solidarity to be successful. A classic example is a scab. The political power of a strike depends on shutting down production such that the lost profits force the boss to negotiate. In such a situation, anyone who works has chosen the side of the boss over the workers and is therefore a "class traitor", because he is undermining the efforts of his class.

Under slavery, there was a concept of a "native informant". This is a person whom the master trusts to impart information from above to the slaves below. You can see a similar phenomenon in Half Life 2 where Dr Breen provides a human face for the nefarious agenda of the alien Combine. This is another example of betraying one's class (humans).

The sudden Half-Life 2 makes this post awesome.

 

[UFO]

I think you're just proving my point. She never could convince people that the accusations against her were false in the same way that Obama was able to do it. And that's because people believe Obama while they didn't believe her. It's because Obama was engaging to listen to while Hillary isn't. Charisma and likability matter. Despite being accused of being a racist that "pals around with terrorist", he came out clean as can be. And those are some very serious accusations. Especially the terrorism links given the political climate at the time.

As far as that gif goes, that's really just her supporters trying to make it important like the Obama gif from one of his older rallies. The difference is that it was true in the case of Obama. He really didn't just brush things off with ease. Hillary never could.

Yeah, he did do this:

 

[old manatee]

Hypothetically what if the moral responsibility to oppose white supremacy by any means necessary exists regardless of what ads you see on television

If your message here is that America is mostly okay with white supremacy and people of color should just not expect to live in safety in America as it currently exists, I already got that one, thanks.

"White supremacy is evil and we need to stop it" is a thing to vote for. Unless you think white supremacy is fine.

Like I said. People of color can't ever live in peace in America as it currently exists.

"Nazis are bad" seems very simple and practical to me.

I think people just need to stop dancing around the fact that they believe a large number of white people in America are fine with white supremacy and that they want their political party to accept those people so that they can win elections!

There it is! Let's absolve them of their support for white supremacy because they once voted for a black guy who assured them they weren't racist!

Thanks for your solidarity!

This argument makes no sense? I don't think I said we shouldn't try to compete. I said stop arguing that people who voted for a white supremacist don't bear the moral responsibility for having done so.



I don't ignore that. I think Hillary made a lot of mistakes and wasn't the right candidate for the new Democratic coalition. To be honest, this is a comforting analysis, because it means we can win without having to change really anything. Next time around everybody won't clear the field because they believe Hillary would be a great president (which she would, it's just the winning part she was bad at) and we won't be stuck with a slate of incompetent has-beens to run for the highest office in the land.

I just find it incredibly tiring how much people want to forgive the people who actually voted for Trump. Your absolution and condoning of white supremacy is how they got radicalized in the first place.

What the fuck does this even mean? We definitely ran a candidate! People had options. Just because you want to tell them it's okay and they're not actually Nazi supporters doesn't make reality go away.

I didn't claim that. You're the one who wrote that people got radicalized into white supremacy by us not giving them options, not me! Take responsibility for your apologism.

Man, it's so inexplicable why long term progressives think these erstwhile socialists don't care about civil rights or fighting white supremacy! Must be fake news.

Also I feel like we should be more clear about our terminology.

I am a progressive.

"Socialists" who don't believe in civil rights and are okay with white supremacy are not progressives.

I'm not sure what word is appropriate. Tankie, maybe? Know Nothing? You guys can figure it out.

Who's talking about Clinton?

Also, to be clear, this doesn't explain anything about why people who claim to be progressive socialists are totally okay with people in their group saying race isn't a real problem. If they care about race as well as class, why is it that I'm the only one pushing back against people saying that race isn't a real issue or an important one? It kind of seems like that perspective is totally normalized and accepted in what you folks call "the new progressivism."

I wonder if that's maybe relevant to the downturn in minority youth turnout?

I mostly just want people to stop telling me that voting for white supremacy is a totally understandable choice and start holding people to moral account for their decision, because, to be totally honest, I believe the reason a lot of those people chose to vote for white supremacy is that their ostensibly progressive family members chose to excuse their racism because "it's just politics" or "he's got economic anxiety." Maybe if you went ahead and challenged them they wouldn't have gotten radicalized in the first place.

But other than that, it's clear to me that people who think the most productive thing for them to do right now is complain about Hillary Clinton are not ever going to be useful allies against white supremacy anyway, so I don't personally want you to do anything in particular, like, go ahead and entertain yourself while I work on this I guess.



Then yelling at people who think enough about politics to spend time posting about it on an video game message board seems like a super ineffective strategy?

People who think white supremacy is not a real issue and that the Democrats need to stop talking about it are enemies that I am actively working against.

A bunch of people blew it off in this very thread, and all the "real progressives" who support Bernie Sanders ignored it and focused all their energy on attacking Hillary.

I can only assume that you guys agree with them or at least condone people who don't care about white supremacy as long as they agree with you about Hillary Clinton being terrible. Otherwise I assume you'd say something!

I assume his Republican opponent will also support white supremacy? Seems like kind of a wash to me.

Manchin is a great example of my problem here. If we have to run a white supremacist to win West Virginia then maybe we just shouldn't be winning West Virginia. How does it help the Democratic Party for it to include people who support white supremacy? All it does is make it impossible to say that the Democratic Party will campaign hard against every senator who voted for a former KKK member to become AG. Instead we have to say we'll campaign hard against every senator who voted for a former KKK member to become AG unless they're a Democrat, in which case it's fine. This line of argument literally makes kame-sennin right about everything.

People who are more interested in critiquing Hillary than opposing white supremacy aren't left of center or progressive.

For the record, I don't think kame-sennin should go away, he's clearly part of the national popular front. Also you can't really be mad at the radical socialists and anarchists for saying for years that America was never actually going to give up white supremacy, because, I mean.

It's the people who want to normalize white supremacy in pursuit of free college that I don't think are fellow travelers.

The normalization of white supremacy continues apace among people who claim to be on the left.

Glad you have enough time to snark at me but not enough time to criticize the people in this thread normalizing white supremacy!

Another good example would be a person who claims to advocate for socialism but believes that it would be appropriate to downplay or normalize white supremacy in order to achieve it, sacrificing the safety of millions of working-class people.

I thought we were talking about the lack of policy in Clinton's ads.

 

[pigeon]

I thought we were talking about the lack of policy in Clinton's ads.

Why did you think that? Certainly you didn't get that impression from reading any of the posts I was responding to! But thanks for singling me out!

 

[UFO]

Stop assuming I'm talking about the entirety of Sanders supporters instead of the specific people I said I was talking about!

A bunch of people blew it off in this very thread, and all the "real progressives" who support Bernie Sanders ignored it and focused all their energy on attacking Hillary.

You should never get into politics, you're terrible at conveying a message.

 

[pigeon]

You should never get into politics, you're terrible at conveying a message.

What do the words "in this very thread" mean to you

 

[Father_Brain]

I think you're just proving my point. She never could convince people that the accusations against her were false in the same way that Obama was able to do it. And that's because people believe Obama while they didn't believe her. It's because Obama was engaging to listen to while Hillary isn't. Charisma and likability matter. Despite being accused of being a racist that "pals around with terrorist", he came out clean as can be. And those are some very serious accusations. Especially the terrorism links given the political climate at the time.

As far as that gif goes, that's really just her supporters trying to make it important like the Obama gif from one of his older rallies. The difference is that it was true in the case of Obama. He really didn't just brush things off with ease. Hillary never could.

Yup. It's unfair that Hillary is as widely disliked as she is for the reasons she is, but it also wasn't fair that Obama was relentlessly smeared and lied about for close to a decade, and yet he somehow managed to leave office with high approval ratings and without a single scandal sticking to him.

Of course the right-wing smear machine had it out for Clinton for years; of course much of the animus against her was driven by sexism, just as much of the animus against Obama was driven by racism. But sexism and right-wing smears aren't sufficient to explain her unpopularity*. She's just not a very good politician. Stop making excuses for her failure.

*unless you're actually going to argue that the right wing treated Obama with kid gloves by comparison, though I have yet to see anyone actually make this argument, possibly because of how self-evidently absurd it is

 

[royalan]

Yup. It's unfair that Hillary is as widely disliked as she is for the reasons she is, but it also wasn't fair that Obama was relentlessly smeared and lied about for close to a decade, and yet he somehow managed to leave office with high approval ratings and without a single scandal sticking to him.

Of course the right-wing smear machine had it out for Clinton for years; of course much of the animus against her was driven by sexism, just as much of the animus against Obama was driven by racism. But sexism and right-wing smears aren't sufficient to explain her unpopularity*. She's just not a very good politician. Stop making excuses for her failure.

*unless you're actually going to argue that the right wing treated Obama with kid gloves by comparison, though I have yet to see anyone actually make this argument, possibly because of how self-evidently absurd it is

Hillary Clinton had a higher favorability rating than both Obama and Biden until she announced she was running for office.

 

[Father_Brain]

Hillary Clinton had a higher favorability rating than both Obama and Biden until she announced she was running for office.

So *after* that point, what she endured from the right was far worse than anything Obama went through, or what?

Also, I'm pretty sure that her approval rating tanked precipitously every previous time she ran for office, even if not quite as much as it did last time.

 

[old manatee]

Maybe Clinton's approval rating plummeted when she ran for office because of the way that she ran for office, for example running negative attack ads instead of positive ads about her policies.