Winterfang
Banned
Thanks for clarifying.
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Terrorist attack at Charlie Hebdo magazine. 12 dead. 11 wounded.
- Thread starter bishoptl
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Thanks for clarifying.
Fenderputty
Banned
Boston marathon asshat surrendered too. Maybe too scared to become a martyr?
BlazingDarkness
Member
Faces of evil.
Because saying that people who do not believe a certain religious text deserve severe punishment just for the fact that they do not believe degrades them in the eyes of those who believe. The very idea that you deserve punishment for doubting the validity of texts that some guy claims to have received while being alone in a cave is a poisonous ethical statement that, if taken as an ethical template for how these issues are to be assessed generally, can corrupt a person's ethical thinking and thus his actions.
The fact that that punishment is supposed to happen in an afterlife is irrelevant. Somebody like the murderers can easily think that god's ethical reasoning is applicable to similar situations, and from there on it is easy for a maniac to go from "He deserves it" to "I'll make sure he get's it."
But that wasn't our subject anyway. I still don't see how you can defend that a book, allegedly written by an infallible, perfect person, and meant to be read by fallible people as the ultimate guideline, allows itself to be "misinterpreted". Such a person would have wirrten something that even those maniacs could not have misunderstood.
"Never, ever kill somebody for something he just believes, says, or writes." would be a good try.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
how? you can do road checks but there's not enough cops to do that. and there's no man border crossings anymore
victreeb3l
Member
I'm loving a lot of these cartoon responses. As a creative, I cannot feel more inspired. This news really bummed me out all day at work being seeing so many people around the world come together and united made me feel a lot better.
I hope we can overcome extremism together one day.
I hope we can overcome extremism together one day.
https://twitter.com/ronzheimer/status/553004173881774080
He said they "heard" about it, so unconfirmed as of yet.
Sadly not, the picture of Ahmed Merabet was the only one of the victims (except for the caricaturist, of course) released so far.
Exterminieren
Banned
These are the people who lost their lives. I'd hope we can remember them more than the animals who did this.
UnluckyKate
Member
These people don't live in 2015. They live in the illusion and nostalgia of middle age.
Also this needs to be posted again and again
You didn't kill Charlie Hebdo. You made it stronger.
Respect.
Fenderputty
Banned
Awesome.
It's too late anyway, for all we know they could almost be in poland by now.
ComputerMKII
Banned
By the way, custody in France is usually 24 hours long, renewable once. However, for terrorist cases, it can be as long as 96 hours.
Gives the police plenty of time to get info from the suspect.
Gives the police plenty of time to get info from the suspect.
thenight11
Member
Jon Passantino ‏@passantino 2m2 minutes ago
Paris prosecutor: Man linked to Paris attacks on Wednesday voluntarily presented himself to police in northeast France - Reuters
Paris prosecutor: Man linked to Paris attacks on Wednesday voluntarily presented himself to police in northeast France - Reuters
I was talking in practical terms. Regardless of the number they're never getting out of jail. Whenever murderer/terrorist jail sentences are discussed, people like to accuse Europe of being soft, because they don't understand how it works (check out any Breivik thread).
Wyndstryker
Member
I had a classmate killed over a cigarette back in high school. People will kill for any reason if they wanted to. Doesn't matter what year it is. Human emotions, human pride, human stupidity will always make people make such atrocities regardless of the reason.
RustyNails
Member
He's an 18 year old kid. When I was that age I was sharing my counter-strike statistics and aol chat shenanigans with my friends. What happens when the entire state police, interpol and the SWAT tactical forces are looking for your 18 year old dumb ass? He probably hedged his bets.
with free speech you can easily identify the people who threat to murder people because of some cartoons because they would be open about it.
Also people could try to talk some sanity into them.
btw I think the user just wanted to post that these kind of actions may have a support larger than what we thought. I'm not sure how big these demonstration were and where they had place.
What do non-extremists do to overcome extremism?
CheDominik
Member
I worked in law enforcement in Germany, these rules can be and are bent if necessary.
Publicly condemn attacks then go back to eating cheetos and farting on their hands.
victreeb3l
Member
I dunno. Not back down when stuff like this happens? Continue to be a good human being and spread positivity? I dont have the answers but maybe we can figure it out one day.
There are socioeconomic problem where this stuff arises as well. Its super complex.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Good summary of something I've failed to formulate in clear enough terms:
Does the Quran answer why God only had a vessel / communicator / prophet on earth thousands of years ago? Why there is no guiding force here on Earth now? I imagine there probably is some kind of caveat that conveniently explains that actually -- future proofing if you will. Do all the writings come truth-certified? Can we verify they came from Mohammed's own accounts, when we know they filtered through scribes? What of the hadiths which came from dozens of sources?
The Quran doesn't answer anything except the blind faith of people in ancient texts of unknown origin IMO.
In Britain we used to chip weapons out of pieces of flint / slate, worship things like the sun or water gods, and we'd drag our bodies across the countryside to bury our dead in burial mounds and make ritual sacrifice. We'd waste coins and goods on the corpse for the journey to the afterlife. Then came the domestication of the horse. The wheel. The mining of iron ore. And copper. The Romans and their Gods. The Christians and their god. The divorce from the papacy and the birth of protestantism, the birth of the Church of England. Civil wars. Two World Wars. Suffragettes. Civil rights. Monarchy reduced to a symbolic function. Fast forward to the present and we're a secular society that truly doesn't look back and doesn't need any of this shit. We don't bow or defer to our royalty or religion, we don't follow all of the same oppressive fire and brimstone practices that we used to just because it was written down somewhere or decreed by some self appointed religious figurehead. It's been about 400 years since anyone was killed for heresy or blasphemy. We do still do some stupid, shit stuff, but the point is, surely progressive people can recognise that the past is a mess, and that people could not possibly have been infallible or without political motive. Scripture is a nonsense to me.
To me, religion is what humans used to use to morally indoctrinate, calm, control and prosecute people with before they codified more modern, inclusive, superior civil laws. I wish people could enlighten me as to how easily they take it to their hearts as the truth, or any form of it. I just don't understand religion. And believe me, it's not because I lack 'faith'. Faith is something I am *glad* I am not afflicted by.
I don't care if you want to believe that stuff. If it brings you love and comfort I am happy for you.
My problem today, in the midst of this, is that the discourse has shifted to this wishy washy inward sounding of caution - people trying to defend the religious, people trying to defend their own religion, and people obviously fearful that we will create more extremism if we dare to offend the religious. What was threatened today wasn't religion. It was common decency. It was freedom of the press. That's what we should all be outraged about and conscious of defending. Maybe a full and proper examination and headlong clash of civilisations is what this world needs to cure itself of these ridiculous fanatics.
The way that guy didn't even stop walking when he executed the cop was scary. This guy was clearly insane and enjoyed what he did.
All we as people can do is stand united, no matter our background, and vehemently condemn these atrocities.
That is the greatest "Fuck You" we can send to these terrorist scumbags, Muslims and the rest of the world alike.
superdeluxe
Member
An incredible loss not only for the loss of the individuals and great artists and heroes. But a strike at the very freedoms most of us hold dear.
To some extent, I DO believe that Islam as a faith and doctrine plays a fault in the extremism. Just the fact that there is definitive room in the teachings of Mohammad advocating violence, means that there is something fundamentally wrong with the ideology. At some point you can't blame extremism/fundamentalism because there are simply too many examples of non-violent extremism/fundamentalism.
What I'm saying is, just the mere presence of violence in a religious text enables negative extremism. This is true for Christianity and Judaism as well (though it's toned down in the last millenium...).
On the other hand, you have Jainism, which at it's core encourages non-violence. You know what a Jain extremist looks like? They sip water and breath through filter paper so as to not accidentally swallow a bug and kill it by digestion.
What I'm saying is, just the mere presence of violence in a religious text enables negative extremism. This is true for Christianity and Judaism as well (though it's toned down in the last millenium...).
On the other hand, you have Jainism, which at it's core encourages non-violence. You know what a Jain extremist looks like? They sip water and breath through filter paper so as to not accidentally swallow a bug and kill it by digestion.
I want to re-propose my design for a social experiment which may identify people who would escalate a physically non-violent conflict (an idealogical conflict) into a physically violent conflict. In other words this experiment would test people to see if they're the kind of crazy that will hurt or murder someone over a verbal disagreement.
Step 1: Have subject answer questionnaire to gain some idea of their deeply held beliefs and strongly held preferences.
Step 2: Have subject interact with an experimenter who will verbally challenge their deeply held beliefs/preferences in a respectful, calm and non-violent manner. If the subject is religious then the experimenter argues the case against religion, points out corruption of religious figures etcetera. If the subject is conservative then the experimenter argues the case for liberal politics, points out corruption of conservatives etcetera. If the subject likes pop music than the experimenter might state their preference for a contrary genre or disparage the pop genre etcetera. You get the idea.
Step 3: Analyse reactions. Outright violence (e.g attempted assault) is an automatic fail, subject is recommended to some form of therapy/treatment if already a citizen, if not a citizen perhaps therapy or just denied access to state. If the subject escalates to near-violent behaviour then further verbal provocation may be offered by the experimenter. Perhaps including insults or snark - i.e. '(insert idolised person here) was a criminal moron who did (insert stupid shit here)'. If a person can't take an insult without becoming violent then they may need some kind of therapy/help. Subjects who resist provocation, exit the experiment, or just keep their cool all pass. They have demonstrated their reluctance to escalate an idealogical conflict into physical violence and are safe people to disagree with.
I honestly think religious extremists like those who did this shooting could not possibly pass this kind of test but have yet to verify this experimentally. I may soon attempt to get permission for this kind of experiment if I can argue my case against the ethics committee. If such a test was widespread then passing such a test may even be a requisite for earning 'adulthood', a kind of test of maturity or a test for the adherence to non-violence. Constructive criticism is very welcome
Step 1: Have subject answer questionnaire to gain some idea of their deeply held beliefs and strongly held preferences.
Step 2: Have subject interact with an experimenter who will verbally challenge their deeply held beliefs/preferences in a respectful, calm and non-violent manner. If the subject is religious then the experimenter argues the case against religion, points out corruption of religious figures etcetera. If the subject is conservative then the experimenter argues the case for liberal politics, points out corruption of conservatives etcetera. If the subject likes pop music than the experimenter might state their preference for a contrary genre or disparage the pop genre etcetera. You get the idea.
Step 3: Analyse reactions. Outright violence (e.g attempted assault) is an automatic fail, subject is recommended to some form of therapy/treatment if already a citizen, if not a citizen perhaps therapy or just denied access to state. If the subject escalates to near-violent behaviour then further verbal provocation may be offered by the experimenter. Perhaps including insults or snark - i.e. '(insert idolised person here) was a criminal moron who did (insert stupid shit here)'. If a person can't take an insult without becoming violent then they may need some kind of therapy/help. Subjects who resist provocation, exit the experiment, or just keep their cool all pass. They have demonstrated their reluctance to escalate an idealogical conflict into physical violence and are safe people to disagree with.
I honestly think religious extremists like those who did this shooting could not possibly pass this kind of test but have yet to verify this experimentally. I may soon attempt to get permission for this kind of experiment if I can argue my case against the ethics committee. If such a test was widespread then passing such a test may even be a requisite for earning 'adulthood', a kind of test of maturity or a test for the adherence to non-violence. Constructive criticism is very welcome
For fuck's sake, man... This is so fucked up.
The way people manage to kill others like this absolutely terrifies me. It's an aggravant that they have absolutely no logical reason to do it, too.
ComputerMKII
Banned
He's helped assassinate people (not just murder them, assassinate them). He is no kid.
this is what usually destroys any extremism in modern societies: when they, to blindly and irrationally fulfill their ideals, go so far to kill or harm the people they should "fight" for they lose support they may have built.
I hope the poor policeman death would take many extremist back to earth, showing them the horror of their ideology and goals.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Why would It downgrade the view about non muslims? The purpose is the educate and if education fails then let them disbelieve. Islam gives great importance of accepting islam up until the last breath at the old age or when dying of disease so if God can wait till the dying breath why not muslims and this is what they do. Do you know of any muslim fiends who hate you for being non muslims? I am on gaf where 90% would be non muslim do I hate 90% of folks here ? No why would I be on the forum for gaming if I just hate other non Muslims. This thinking is only by those who don't respect other human beings. It says in the Quran itself
There is no compulsion in religion. 2:256
Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. 18:29
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. 109:6
In the Quran. The only acts of violence are in defense against an aggressor but never be an aggressor yourself, this is also the belief of the U.S. ARMY but islam is not a nation so it doesn't apply to muslims in modern age. There is no use of armed defense as no one can remove islam forcefully
Refer to post 56
RustyNails
Member
Responses from US Muslim leaders. One of the most prominent US Sheikhs and Islamic leader (Hamza Yusuf)
Equally prominent scholar Yasir Qadhi
Equally prominent scholar Yasir Qadhi
The Faceless Master
Member
nothing. and they shouldn't have to...
it's the same shit comment used against other communities by people who want to throw a whole segment under the bus for the actions of a few.
Sun Bather
Member
Well he's 18 years old. Even if he carried out this, which is hard to logically explain, it's no surprise he might not have the spine to die for it in the end.
Fenderputty
Banned
Yeah but your 18 year old self wouldn't have gotten involved in a terrorist plot.
Blows my mind. I guess trying to figure it out is futile.
Gormless Noodle
Member
Would be nice of you to flag that for what it is, since some might not want to see that.
You're critiquing the quality of satirical illustrations in a thread about ten journalists and two police officers being murdered because said drawings offended a few fragile, despicable religious lunatics. Pity you're unable to understand why people suspect you're implying something other than your own distaste for the content of the cartoons. I doubt anyone is concerned that you're annoyed, though.
RustyNails
Member
Kids get swept up in violence all the time. Child soldiers in Congo or gang violence in America for example. They are still kids.
Seeing the video of the execution made me really sad. How can you take someone's life without any emotion? It was like they were roboters. Makes me ashamed that these cowards are the same species as i am.
SolidusDave
Member
There are still ways. In Germany the federal border guard will still do random inspections and can ask anyone for ID at any time near the border/at train stations.
Obviously it's not possible to cover all cars and travelers, especially with limited preparation time, no descriptions etc.
Last year, I was checked by them on the train from France 5 times. Every time they only wanted to call in my data haha
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
ComputerMKII
Banned
I think it's very good that we showed the terrorists they are isolated in their madness and that we will not put up with their shit. If we don't do that, we risk letting honest people doubt and maybe get seduced by their sick ideas - or submitting to them out of fear.
Today/yesterday's public reaction has been even more useful considering they've reacted almost instantly. We didn't even wait 24 hours before gathering and expressing our opposition to terrorism. That's as clear a message as you can send. The more countries and organizations do this, the stronger the effect will be.
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