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The 2nd Democratic National Primary Debate
- Thread starter kingkitty
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WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
I think Hillary has better chance than Sanders at this.
The 2012 election? Or are you comparing this to the 2008 election where people are comparing Sanders to Obama? I cannot answer that because I do not know much about that election.
What's worse is that he chose go for the fake Hillary instead of fake Sanders. No class.
Aaronology
Member
Sounds nice, but clearly those smarts don't come into play when it is time to show up to vote.
eBay Huckster
Member
well, no. unlike a certain "Democratic" candidate, WaffleTaco didn't want the sitting President to get primaried for no reason
Tarkus
Member
As crazy as Cruz is, if you don't think he could demolish these passive candidates, then you haven't paid attention to his career. The dude can throw down.
Elfforkusu
Member
I think this is laughable. Conservatives hate Hillary. Even those who hate the modern GOP will hold their nose and vote to stop Hillary from taking office. It'll only be worse if she's elected.
eyeball_kid
Member
My feeling is Hillary was not at all as dominant as the last debate. She muddled through because she's a good debater and can recover after a hit, but Bernie was on point 90% of the time. So Bernie probably won it by a slim margin. His numbers will probably go up, but not enough to turn the tables on Hilldawg.
I do agree that Bernie is giving too many vague platitudes about a "revolution". Yes, Obama was all about "change" in his first election, but the difference is Obama had the ability to give soaring speeches that inspired people in abstract terms. Bernie is good on the policy, and that plays to his base, but if you can't elucidate how you plan to revolutionize the political system, you have to be able to rouse people with emotional speeches. Obama was the king of that. Bernie is passionate, but that passion comes from him. He's not as good as putting that passion into the general populace. If people can't get inspired by the passion, it can quickly turn to 'crazy' like what happened to Howard Dean or Ross Perot. Bernie's got to figure out a way to get middle-of-the-road Democrats to believe in the cause.
I do agree that Bernie is giving too many vague platitudes about a "revolution". Yes, Obama was all about "change" in his first election, but the difference is Obama had the ability to give soaring speeches that inspired people in abstract terms. Bernie is good on the policy, and that plays to his base, but if you can't elucidate how you plan to revolutionize the political system, you have to be able to rouse people with emotional speeches. Obama was the king of that. Bernie is passionate, but that passion comes from him. He's not as good as putting that passion into the general populace. If people can't get inspired by the passion, it can quickly turn to 'crazy' like what happened to Howard Dean or Ross Perot. Bernie's got to figure out a way to get middle-of-the-road Democrats to believe in the cause.
This is part of it too. Please tell me more about how practical Hillary Clinton's proposals are when the opposition is just as opposed to them. She hasn't committed to even a 12 dollar minimum wage. What is it exactly about her that makes me think she'll be great at negotiating my interest? At least Bernie has more room to negotiate at 15 dollars -- even if he doesn't get that particular number passed. She's not even starting at 12 or really taking a stand for it -- it's just any one of the minimum wage proposals being passed around congress that she would endorse. But I'm sure if a 15 dollar minimum wage bill was being talked about; she'd go on about how impractical it was.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I don't understand the "too idealistic" criticism against Bernie given that he used the "biggest crises" question solely to focus on his ability to get something done even when his ideal plans can't garner enough support. He seems to have a pretty clear grasp on the importance of pragmatism to me. That said, if nothing else, the democratic debates continually convince me that any of the three on stage would make at least decent presidents and I'll back any of them against anything the GOP has to offer.
biggersmaller
Banned
Bernie is saying he will "work for" or "fight for" those initiatives. Obviously he won't admit how impossible it would be to guarantee his proposals will be implemented. He would be a terrible politician if he did. But where he and Hillary differ is that his resolve doesn't sway based on lobbyists. He addressed this well in talking about the VA bill he passed, where he didn't get everything he wanted - but what was passed served as a big step in the right direction.
Sanders is idealistic to the point of nonsense sometimes.
Case in point, $15 minimum wage. That is absolutely too high for some rural areas.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
I'd be really curious to find out how many Sanders supporters have ever even voted in a midterm election.
(i'm just now at the part of his 'political revolution') good point by the moderator that it's already taking place on the other side of the isle
(i'm just now at the part of his 'political revolution') good point by the moderator that it's already taking place on the other side of the isle
Brawndo Addict
Banned
No I'm pointing out the complete disregard for history that Sander's 'revolution' appeals to as if Obama never existed. Sanders is no Obama and even Obama couldn't change the system. He even delivered on health care reform but like all policies, that meant negotiating and compromising. Did his supporters show up again in Midterms to help keep things going? No he got utterly destroyed and that was after getting something done. Are voters going to suddenly show up in droves to vote for Dems in the midterms when Bernie fails to get any of his proposals enacted or enacted with compromises/changes? Of course not. It's not an argument to say "well things will be different this time" but completely ignore the how and why of it. Sanders is not a better Obama.
MWS Natural
Member
Just rewatched it online, any else notice a ton of audience coughing when Sanders spoke vs the other candidates?
I think going forward, this is becoming a parroted point enough over social media where this problematic voting block will start to change their behavior in this regard. 2015 is really a huge year for activism and social movements, and it might not just be a temporary spike due to the upcoming election.
Receipts.
benicillin
Banned
That was the sound of Hillary's lizard people in the audience trying to keep their human disguises up.
isn't a midterm something you take in college?
shinra-bansho
Member
Hillary must have infected them with the disease that's secretly killing her.
You guys are all fooling yourselves if you Think Hillary or Bernie have a leg up on the other when it comes to working with the fucking lunatics on the right.
Neither of them will have any easier a go than the other. Those motherfuckers are far beyond reason. They see only one thing, the opposition's political affiliation. They don't give a fuck about how far left your starting point is, or how close you are to the center right. That this is even a discussion shows how naive we all are about these goofballs.
Any meaningful progress will be done in spite of them. All of them; unless something strange happens, but I wouldn't count on it.
Neither of them will have any easier a go than the other. Those motherfuckers are far beyond reason. They see only one thing, the opposition's political affiliation. They don't give a fuck about how far left your starting point is, or how close you are to the center right. That this is even a discussion shows how naive we all are about these goofballs.
Any meaningful progress will be done in spite of them. All of them; unless something strange happens, but I wouldn't count on it.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Yeah, across both parties I would say Cruz likely has the strongest oratory skills. While I vehemently disagree with him on just about everything, his Shakespearean background shows during debates. Count the number of times across an entire debate the he says "umm" or "uhh". It's kind of astonishing how low the number is.
Veritigo_X
Member
True Hillary stans would willingly infect themselves.
Tbh, I'm worried that being able to work with Republicans is considered a selling point.
MWS Natural
Member
UnemployedVillain
Member
Your calculations seem a bit...off. If Sanders is further ledte to start with he's going to have to compromise more, meaning more of what he intended will be mangled in the process. So it'd be more like Hilary compromises 50% and we get something close to what she intended versus Bernie compromising 75% and we end up getting something far from what he hoped for.
Phrozenflame500
Member
gutter_trash
Banned
you overestimate the hate.
Bill spent 8 years with the GOP hate wagon day in and day out. Bill's favoribility ranks higher than any Bush amomg Americans
Yeah, I'm not even that young (32) and I never had the whole "Communism is the enemy of mankind! Socialism is EVIL!" bullshit indoctrinated into me. I'm extremely embarrassed by my older relatives who don't understand that and it's shameful how they plug their ears and go "LA LA LA" anytime you point out how much better other countries are compared to America on many things. Thankfully I don't have to deal with them much and my 65 year old mother, who I'm around the most, is pro Bernie. Probably helps that we've lived on the West Coast our whole lives.
Netherscourge
Banned
O'Malley's Trump-slam was awesome. He needs to keep coming at him though.
He backed off immediately and really didn't do much except drop a #blacklivesmatter tip that seemed a little patronizing.
He backed off immediately and really didn't do much except drop a #blacklivesmatter tip that seemed a little patronizing.
It probably won't be $15, maybe $12. Hillary's $12 will be more like $10. This is what I'm talking about when I wrote about Sanders' idealism being a "problem." Better to start with the higher goal.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Felt like Clinton came off a bit weak here, sanders was better but also didnt feel too substantive. He had the best points when it came to Wall Street campaign funds.
I think Omalley has the most to gain here.
I think Omalley has the most to gain here.
He got something done while the economy was in shambles*
Sanders is basically telling people they need to do the job, not him, which is a good thing. If you want to cast away all the elements that created 2010 that's fine, but it's not pragmatic or realistic, it's cynical.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Or they both end up at $10 and the person who had planned around $12 is in a much better position than the one who had planned around $15
10.10 is already a minimum being fought for on many state levels, and it's already too low.
In all honesty, 15 will be too low by the time it actually rolls around at a federal level.
The moral of the story here is don't make up arbitrary baby step numbers based on gut feelings.
shinra-bansho
Member
Sanders isn't for the most part a socialist. He's largely a capitalist, who believes in market based solutions for most things, but which is reigned in by government intervention towards addressing potential excesses and inequalities i.e. a social democrat. There are a few issues on which he can probably be considered a democratic socialist.
Agreed, negotiating 101
Pretty much got what I expected from this debate...3 very rational, very electable candidates spouting most of what they had been saying up until now. With O'Malley continuing to look like someone worth voting for if Bernie and Hillary weren't already pretty firmly in the picture. I'd vote for any of them, even if I still prefer Sanders.
Unless she does something to seriously fuck up, like use a racial slur on live television or something, I'm expecting Hillary to win with minimal effort.
Unless she does something to seriously fuck up, like use a racial slur on live television or something, I'm expecting Hillary to win with minimal effort.
The elements that 'created 2010' are not going to be fixed by the words of Bernie Sanders.
If the people needed to be told to vote and how much it matters in the first place, the failing is not on Obama's or Hillary's or the Democratic party's shoulders. It's on the people.
What? No, I'm saying even if they end up at the same place, it's better to start further to the left. Bernie's whole "biggest challenge" moment was about having to compromise after an idealistic bill didn't go through. I'm not concerned about Bernie somehow being too idealistic to get anything done. And honestly, good if idealistic bills get shot down over and over, it'll mobilize the base and make Republicans look bad.
wolfhowwl
Banned
Anti-GAF terrorist suicide bombed the thread. He was the only casualty.
"15 now!" is a great slogan. It's better than "17.50 at some point in the near future".
anti-Sanders parasites. It will spread amongst his supporters like wildfire. spread by twitter posts.
I don't even know what you're saying, are you even following the exchange at all?
Are you saying Bernie shouldn't encourage people to vote and get involved. If that's a correct characterization, do you think he should stop running ads and campaigning as well?
Since you love history so much, how does that sort of negotiating tactic square with the republican party and how they have negotiated with the democrats in the last 8+ years?
Tarkus
Member
He was neutralized quickly too. I wonder which of The Red was the sniper.
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