No one really knows the long term impact of technological disruption. There has been plenty of technological disruption in the past where jobs were completely eliminated from the economy, but new ones sprang up from the due to those technological disruption. One can argue that this time will be different because machines will be talking over jobs, but that does not necessarily mean that new ones will not be created based on that change and does not mean that not enough job will be created just because you or I can't think what all of those jobs will be.
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The 2nd Democratic National Primary Debate
- Thread starter kingkitty
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No one really knows the long term impact of technological disruption. There has been plenty of technological disruption in the past where jobs were completely eliminated from the economy, but new ones sprang up from the due to those technological disruption. One can argue that this time will be different because machines will be talking over jobs, but that does not necessarily mean that new ones will not be created based on that change and does not mean that not enough job will be created just because you or I can't think what all of those jobs will be.
This is true, but ultimately, we should accept the fact that labor from the individual must eventually become a want and a desire to do, not a socially demanded thing. Life innately has no goals or purpose, so to infer such things on people as things that "must" be chased can only lead to suffering. The demand of labor is what already creates a "have not" class, but that conversation is perhaps best had elsewhere.
Automation at least forces us to assess this, for we continue to forget our ideas about labor are ideas: they're not real, innate phenomena of nature, but put ons.
Climate change is the far bigger beast, and one where we cannot even reason that it will open a window of prosperity. It's all ruin: it is up to us, who made the problem, to decide collectively how much we will create of it.
So the sixth mass extinction of life that's going to happen, which we caused, is not destroying our way of life? Are you for real?
Unless you mean short term, but that's kinda why we caused that to happen...
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Mass extinction event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction). I agree with you guys on technological unemployment, but climate change is most definitely not "theoretical". The damage has already been done, it's a question of how much we can mitigate its effects and not make it worse.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
If the plane's going down, there's not a lot of value in informing passengers of their imminent demise, or explaining the causes behind it that they had no control over.
Once again, what's the magnitude? This extinction has been ongoing for 10,000 years. When it starts wrapping up around 50,000 AD, everyone on NeoGAF will be long dead.
Rich Uncle Skeleton
Member
So, just to clarify, you believe that the way to shift the political center to the left in this country is to decrease the number of people voting Democrat relative to the number of people voting Republican? You think Democrats will lose an election to a right-wing extremist and think "Damn! If only we'd nominated a socialist!"?
The primaries are the time to help pick what kind of candidate you want the Democrats to nominate. After that point, we have a de facto two party system and any vote not for one of the two major candidates is pointless. We won't move the country left by allowing Republicans to control all of the government. I understand the frustration at the slow pace of change, I feel it too, but the answer is not to take our ball and go home.
benjipwns
Banned
Speak for yourself, buster.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
I'm happy eating jellyfish for the rest of my life if it means humanity survives at the expense of ocean life.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I can't tell if you're trolling or not lol.
This just screams of kicking the can down the road. "Future generations will have to deal with it, so fuck it."
Do you not realize in just the short term, we've already seen that's done to the Millennial generation, inheriting a mess run with a similar mindset?
Like, I can't believe you're for real here. It's ridiculous. If climate change isn't the greatest problem we face, what is? Pray tell, I'm quite sure any answer you give me will astonish me at this point.
benjipwns
Banned
I think it's important to consider the possible role of available data in discerning patterns.
Especially before we start discussing if it's time for everyone to bail out of the universe.
How can you bail out of a universe that has no outside?
benjipwns
Banned
Don't tell me what I can't do!
Oh sure, I'm not questioning that. I'm just asking Foffy to think about his concerns quantitatively instead of qualitatively. As far as I know, extinctions take tens of thousands of years - not exactly the timescale that makes people run out and vote for Bernie Sanders.
One day, the sun might consume the Earth. Pretty big problem, right? Why aren't we scrambling to do something about it? It's because the timescale matters here. We will all be dead billions of years from now.
benjipwns
Banned
Again, speak for yourself, mate. It's a little presumptive to assume that everyone on GAF isn't basically immortal in relation to the common man.
For all you know, I'm the personification of an idea and could exist forever.
Yes, I recently re-read The Sandman/Lucifer, why do you ask?
Code:
Hold on here.
Is this an issue that is worth voting Sanders for? No; it requires a collective response, and who fucking cares who's involved? The world will do it, or it won't. He's talked about it as a number one issue, but that doesn't mean other people do not see it as issues that can be addressed, as if they're somehow invalidated. For Hillary, if it's even on her top 10 issues, that's fine. Fuck, even if all she does is have it on a PR sheet, that's fine. It will only amount to anything from a wide world effort: fuck the national level entirely here. That does diddle dicks.
Where did I even imply Sanders was worthy of being nominated just because of this? He spoke of the number one problem, but most people don't give a shit about it. There are indeed other problems to deal with, and as we are a society, we're going to first deal with the problems of symbols, concepts, and subjectivity first. Like, this could also be the greatest issue the scientific community has about the world, but for all we know, our society wants us to deal with black cats. We will elect someone to deal with black cats.
You lost me, bro. Why do you assume when I merely speak of issues with no correlation of a candidate as someone to elect, I am actually making such correlation? You're putting quite a great number of assumptions on me here, and I am bewildered. I spoke of one who was merely aware of a problem. Being aware is not a sign of worthiness.
And to make it clear, as you made this bullshit assumption on me, I think the first thing to be addressed is evocated inequality. No candidate seems clear cut in delivering, and there are reasons in all of them why that is. I have tried to make the distinction between objective problem and social problem with climate and labor. We as a society only care about the social, the projected. We will elect someone upon that and nothing else. And I have already called Sanders a futile candidate in this very thread in that regard.
To be fair, we should be.
Even better, can we stop the eventual heat death of the universe? That actually seems like a noble goal!
benjipwns
Banned
The heat death of the universe is a big government "scientist" hoax. How are we supposed to square that with their so-called universe is expanding claim?!?
Check out.
Yup, the justices really seals it
Yes We Can.
But we're being obstructed by those damn conservatives
(they believe in conservation of energy).
shinra-bansho
Member
Cut it out, universe.
I was really happy to see Bernie use some of Robert Reich's material....that quip on Eisenhauer comes from Reich's material.
It would make sense that he would; the position escapes me, but he's actually considered Reich to be part of his cabinet. I think something related to labor.
Reich is for a basic income, so he might stealth some socialism. His model for it sucks ass, though. Taxing patents seems incredibly weak compared to say, Milton Friedman's ideas.
This is why I am big in reinvigorating space exploration and research which in return can and will help with global warming.
It's not what it stands for but what comes out of it. I'd be a liar to say I'm not amazed by seeing humans in space or furthering our reach but I feel that is where we will solve issues here. Kids will see it and be amazed like they were in the 60's! With that they will want to be apart of it and work hard not for the money like so many believe but for what they do and like many of us the small chance that they can be on the frontier as well. The amount of technology that comes out of it is incredible. With new propulsion technology that could be researched with the initial intent for space travel could cause a new or more efficient way to travel right here on earth which in turn could save it.
The average person doesn't care about down the road as sad as it is and it's something you can work around if you invest right in my eyes. I seriously doubt unless a cataclysmic event happens you can get everyone to care about climate research or ways to mitigate climate change when it will greatly impact those with less money(at least now with solar panels and such) but you can indirectly cause that by giving people something they can actually see and think is "cool".
Elon Musk is doing great strides with alternative energy and as an example look at how he did he decided to run Tesla. He didn't go for a sedan and talk about how fuel efficient it is and for people to pay 40k when they can buy a Honda for 20k as the initial investment. He thought about how awesome looking of a car he can make as well as make it run well to get richer people to buy it. He succeeded and now there is hype around Tesla cars because others see it and he's able to use the money gained on the initial and secondary model to start producing a cheap car on alternative energy that many people I know will jump on.
Sorry it's late and possibly a bit jumbled but wanted to put my two cents into how we can make change a reality in regards to climate.
It's not what it stands for but what comes out of it. I'd be a liar to say I'm not amazed by seeing humans in space or furthering our reach but I feel that is where we will solve issues here. Kids will see it and be amazed like they were in the 60's! With that they will want to be apart of it and work hard not for the money like so many believe but for what they do and like many of us the small chance that they can be on the frontier as well. The amount of technology that comes out of it is incredible. With new propulsion technology that could be researched with the initial intent for space travel could cause a new or more efficient way to travel right here on earth which in turn could save it.
The average person doesn't care about down the road as sad as it is and it's something you can work around if you invest right in my eyes. I seriously doubt unless a cataclysmic event happens you can get everyone to care about climate research or ways to mitigate climate change when it will greatly impact those with less money(at least now with solar panels and such) but you can indirectly cause that by giving people something they can actually see and think is "cool".
Elon Musk is doing great strides with alternative energy and as an example look at how he did he decided to run Tesla. He didn't go for a sedan and talk about how fuel efficient it is and for people to pay 40k when they can buy a Honda for 20k as the initial investment. He thought about how awesome looking of a car he can make as well as make it run well to get richer people to buy it. He succeeded and now there is hype around Tesla cars because others see it and he's able to use the money gained on the initial and secondary model to start producing a cheap car on alternative energy that many people I know will jump on.
Sorry it's late and possibly a bit jumbled but wanted to put my two cents into how we can make change a reality in regards to climate.
Look, I just want to see some numbers so I know how worried I should be. You routinely make apocalyptic predictions about the future but maybe there's only 3 dooms and 5 glooms. e.g. automation sounds scary until you notice that the technological unemployment rate is 0%.
The media is smearing me - I definitely created a time paradox by attacking my great great great grandmother with a hammer.
exmachina64
Banned
Spoken like a true Brawndo addict.
I m not sure I follow....It doesnt really matter what the atually nuts and bolts rules Reich or Bernie would implement, first they have to push how politics operates through the senate. Of course there have to be campaign items to win on, but their main goal is to expose the corruption of the political system and try to get people to vote and not be cynical. Reich and Bern have been inthe political game through multiple administrations. Yes , Reich is a labour specialist and was in office with Ford and Carter and CLinton.......until he could not get CLinton to go further. They both saw how CLinton got bought out by Wall street the banks and big pharma. They are both on the same page in that they recognize that a "movement" is necessary to take down the power structure of politcs in America. Most activitsts would prefer Reich to have run for President, but he is happy being an activitst and University prof who tours the country, sells books, and in general is burned out doing his best to change policis from within. They both simply want, and need, more Americans to get educated about what is really going on and to demand action. Reich has the ability to say what he thinks where bernie has to mind his P's and Q's.
Reich's movie was excellent and you may still be bael to watch it with the password: bernie 2016
this link is good, but indeed Reich is a Rhodes scholar and commands resepct as an intellectual, not like the reddit poster implied with his "doesnt have an econ degree" comment.
Come on, the climate debate is a contentious issue, but minimal research gets you on board with what is really going on fast. Do some. Dont make others supply you with whatyou best do for yourself. It took me a few weeks to learn all I need to learn for actual facts on climate (ice core data, what is global dimming, what casued the ice ages and warning periods in the past and what is cotributing to what is happening now and that the speed with which the changes are occurrign owing to anthropogeinic factors is unprecedented, etc etc etc.)I feel I know the percetnage chance for problems and TBH I think they could be averted were we to erase the hegomony of the rich over the earth and create jobs for science, not business. I am interested in climate chagne but more interested in efficiency. With a billion solar panels up all over the worlds deserts we can stop digging oil to operate an entire economy and get on with more important things like education, curing diseases, increasing all other forms of technology, and finally getting out of the stone age where stealing all other peoples' share of commodities from the earth is the only gig in town. I am less concerned in the short term with climate change than i am with being a friggin slave for average wages when the less than 1% get filthy filthy rich off my labour. What I cant understand is how people think its fine that they are slaves working 40 hours a week for peanuts when the the super rich parasites bloodsuck trillions of dollars out of our labour and dont lift a finger. How is it that the most intelligent people on earth, and those resposnible for cuing disease and well inventing, everything, i.e. scientists, are not represented in politics? These are pretty pressing questions and it is breath of fresh air to finally have guys like Reich and Bernie getting some critical mass and energy mobilized.
He's got what GAF craves!
benjipwns
Banned
Al Gore's made millions pimping the topic out all over the world for decades. Bernie Sanders mentioning it in a debate is probably not the tipping point that leads humanity to take action on a problem it doesn't know how to fix.
And lack of knowledge and capability at this point in time does not preclude knowledge and capability in the future.
And lack of knowledge and capability at this point in time does not preclude knowledge and capability in the future.
We all agree on which problems to address but greatly disagree on how much they are problems. There are some absurdly dismal outlooks in here. I brought up climate change because someone said it would collapse our political system. American life is really not that bad. It's okay if we stick with centrist candidates. I'm one of the few Bernie supporters in PoliGAF, but I do not think the sky is falling.
disastermouse
Banned
No, I want a real left option or a strong enough left movement to make it clear that Democrats can't take the left vote for granted. They can only go so far right before they're crossing into voters who, if they're going to vote Republican anyway, might as well vote for the actual Republican. Barring that, I'd like to see real support for a strong left third party or party to replace the Democrats.
I'd vote for a Socialist Alternative candidate locally - even though I have a bad relationship with that party.
Eventually, and this is foolish whimsy, I'd like to start a left Marxist party consisting of members of workers cooperatives and their allies to start in local and regional electoral politics while also demonstrating real worker ownership and self-management. Very small, local stuff in coalitions that can build slowly over time.
disastermouse
Banned
Correction: A problem that capitalism can't fix.
teruterubozu
Member
Why not? Capitalism has made great strides in environmentalism - going green, renewable energy, etc. Sure, it's still got tons of problems, but there are solutions within the system.
disastermouse
Banned
Capitalism is incapable of long term projects with little initial or promised profit. It simply cannot do it, as capital must seek rents or profits in short enough terms that the venture can survive. It's technical dynamism has been a marvel, but its advances are incrementally cumulative and based on competitive advantage. It cannot build out a commons like light rail, full open energy infrastructures or more broadly collaborative or cooperative efforts like those needed to stem climate change, to name just one problem facing us.
Capitalism is a growth-based ideology that has taken us to a post-growth reality. The evidence is ubiquitous.
teruterubozu
Member
An efficient and clean transport system can absolutely be achieved through privatization. Look at Japan. It's not really capitalism that is restrictive - it's people's imagination, will and effort.
disastermouse
Banned
I think you're ignoring the completely different circumstances of the Japanese system. Even now, Japan supports and protects its industry in a way that is anathema to the way the U.S. does. They are also a much smaller and denser nation, requiring far fewer low-traffic routes and much less overall infrastructure. Such an undertaking in America would require state-corporate cooperation on a far larger scale than is politically viable for a long time to come.
Meanwhile, the tendency of markets that begin meritocratic to end up monopolistic or oligopolistic over time reduces innovation even more than would democratic control and moderate bureaucracy. We can't afford that slow down and we can't afford (or soon won't be able to afford) the skimming of profit from the collective action.
Capitalism likewise cannot withstand the radical reduction in consumption required to slow or halt climate change.
teruterubozu
Member
Well, if you are talking about "political viability" then the reality is that capitalism isn't going anywhere soon. It's nice to hypothesize though.
disastermouse
Banned
It'll be required, at least if we want to maintain civil rights. I'm saying that the inability of state/corporate power to effect long-term, profit neutral or losing ventures just isn't there.
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