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[Men_in_Boxes]

What I said was "From console owners I know, its between 30% and 40% female, depending on how you count it.". Your reply was "press F to doubt". I took that to mean that you doubted I was telling the truth, but apologies if that wasn't what you meant.

I wrote down a list of friends/family who I know play on the most recent generations of consoles (PS4 onwards) and it was 37.5% women, 62.5% men. Again the number could be different depending on who you do or do not count.

So we're starting to get somewhere. I've asked this question to numerous people in my life, both male and female, and your response of 37.5% (well short of the 48% Circana poll) is the outlier. Everyone else I've asked (What percentage of PS5/SX gamers do you think are female?) fell well short of 20%, let alone 37.5%.

If the Circana poll was right, shouldn't we have roughly 50% of the responses sway overwhelmingly to female? I encourage you to do this as well. I don't think it's a small sample size on my end.

The Circana poll just doesn't pass the sniff test. It feels very off.

If a poll is an amateur one, say for example on a gaming forum or social media, I don't believe it would be particularly representative. When a poll is done by a professional company such as YouGov or Circana, then I put more weight behind its results. I reviewed the methodology shared by Circana and it makes sense to me (though obviously I am not a professional pollster).

Either way, a professional poll is certainly more representative than my own personal experiences.

Dewey Defeats Truman. There are so many examples of "professional polls" that get it wrong. In my brief search online I've found that females are more likely to participate in online polling, which is likely leading to the garbage results.

Maybe the % of "core gamers" to the overall gamers is higher for men than it is for women.

Yes, this is really the only way to make the poll make sense. It's to broaden the term so loosely that it no longer has any value. Are you a gamer if you've played a PS5/SX once in the last 5 years? I'm sure most girls under the age of 20 have played Fortnite sometime in the last 7 years. Does that make them gamers?

I don't believe this to be true. I see video game commercials targeting women fairly regularly. Below are a couple of examples I've seen in the UK:

You're doing this repeatedly.

My claim is that it's nowhere near 50%. Your tactic is to say "I know plenty of female gamers" and now..."I've seen many gaming commercials geared towards the female audience."

Again, this doesn't refute my claim. If 5% of videogame commercials target females, and the other 95% target males, then you can obviously see plenty of commercials targeting girls. You do not see 50% of commercials targeting girls.

We don't have GameStop or Walmart here so I can't answer that. The cheapest way to get games here is to order them online.

I'm sure you can find the equivalent of both stores in your location and I'm sure you've no doubt noticed how heavily the customer base skews male there as well. Also, guys probably understand the price benefits of shopping online just as much as the ladies.

Traditionally gaming has been male dominated (18% of PS1 owners were women per Sony's data) and it's true a lot of games have focused on violence. But my counter point would be:

• There are popular games that don't focus a lot on violence
• Women can consume media with violence in it as well

Again...again...again...my claim is not that there are 0 female gamers. Obviously you're going to find a small number of games that don't focus on violence. But males tend to prefer violent media at higher rates than women, which is why you see the vast majority of games contain themes of violence. If the customer base was truly 50/50, we would see it reflected in the themes of games.

Counterpoint question:

When we have Sony telling investors the % of PlayStation Account owners over the age of 13 who are female, why would we ignore that information and decide its more accurate to judge the PlayStation userbase with personal, anecdotal metrics like "people I saw in Walmart" or "mentions of gaming in TV shows I've seen."

That's not critical thinking.

I bet it's to inform investors of an untapped customer base more than anything.

"Watch what they do, not what they say."

 

[Woopah]

So we're starting to get somewhere. I've asked this question to numerous people in my life, both male and female, and your response of 37.5% (well short of the 48% Circana poll) is the outlier. Everyone else I've asked (What percentage of PS5/SX gamers do you think are female?) fell well short of 20%, let alone 37.5%.

Doesn't mean that what those people think is actually accurate. If you asked those people "what % of PS account owners are female" how many of them do you think would say the right answer of 41%?

Dewey Defeats Truman. There are so many examples of "professional polls" that get it wrong. In my brief search online I've found that females are more likely to participate in online polling, which is likely leading to the garbage results.

If a poll gets a significantly higher response rate from women than men, that is something Circana adjusts for to make the data more representative of the whole population.

I'm not saying polls are perfect, there's aways margins of error. But it doesn't make sense to reject a polls findings based on lived experience. I've never met a single person who plays Roblox. Most people I speak to have never even heard of it. Does that mean the Cricana data showing the popularity of Roblox "doesn't pass the sniff test" and is therefore wrong?

No, it just means that the experience of one person, their friends, and even their friends' friends isn't necessarily representative of the whole gaming market.

Yes, this is really the only way to make the poll make sense. It's to broaden the term so loosely that it no longer has any value. Are you a gamer if you've played a PS5/SX once in the last 5 years? I'm sure most girls under the age of 20 have played Fortnite sometime in the last 7 years. Does that make them gamers?

To be included in the Circana results, the person had to have played video games within the last 30 days.

Any girls under 20 who played some Fortnite years ago would not be counted

My claim is that it's nowhere near 50%. Your tactic is to say "I know plenty of female gamers" and now..."I've seen many gaming commercials geared towards the female audience."

My tactic is to show why you shouldn't assume your own personal experiences apply to everyone else in the gaming market. You said "when you watch TV that targets the male audience, you get videogame commercials but with the opposite...you don't?" and "You do not see 50% of commercials targeting girls." as if these were facts that apply to everyone.

More than 50% of the gaming-related adverts I see target both men and women. The rest have a specific gender focus, but the number targeting men is not noticeable higher than those targeting women.

I'm sure you can find the equivalent of both stores in your location and I'm sure you've no doubt noticed how heavily the customer base skews male there as well. Also, guys probably understand the price benefits of shopping online just as much as the ladies.

I'm saying I haven't noticed because I don't really go into those types of shops. I have no idea what their customer base is and I wouldn't use that anecdotal evidence to judge the whole gaming market.

Again...again...again...my claim is not that there are 0 female gamers. Obviously you're going to find a small number of games that don't focus on violence. But males tend to prefer violent media at higher rates than women, which is why you see the vast majority of games contain themes of violence. If the customer base was truly 50/50, we would see it reflected in the themes of games.

I'm not saying that is your claim. But what are you using to judge the scale? Especially when a lot of popular games don't strongly focus on violence?

Could it have some affect? Yes absolutely. It is likely one of the factors behind the female % on PlayStation being lower than it is on Switch.

I bet it's to inform investors of an untapped customer base more than anything.

"Watch what they do, not what they say."

Surely people over 13 who have PlayStation accounts on PS4/PS5 are not an "untapped customer base". They are actual PlayStation customers. And 41% of them are female.

Again, all this anecdotal evidence from shopping or TV watching isn't going to be as representative as the actual data from Sony.

Edit: I appreciate the effort you put into the discussion.

 

[RoboFu]

I think 16bit is where it peaked for me. I could have gone on with attachments forever. Cart helper chips really widened the gap on the snes from launch games to yoshi's island.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Doesn't mean that what those people think is actually accurate. If you asked those people "what % of PS account owners are female" how many of them do you think would say the right answer of 41%?



If a poll gets a significantly higher response rate from women than men, that is something Circana adjusts for to make the data more representative of the whole population.

I'm not saying polls are perfect, there's aways margins of error. But it doesn't make sense to reject a polls findings based on lived experience. I've never met a single person who plays Roblox. Most people I speak to have never even heard of it. Does that mean the Cricana data showing the popularity of Roblox "doesn't pass the sniff test" and is therefore wrong?

No, it just means that the experience of one person, their friends, and even their friends' friends isn't necessarily representative of the whole gaming market.



To be included in the Circana results, the person had to have played video games within the last 30 days.

Any girls under 20 who played some Fortnite years ago would not be counted


My tactic is to show why you shouldn't assume your own personal experiences apply to everyone else in the gaming market. You said "when you watch TV that targets the male audience, you get videogame commercials but with the opposite...you don't?" and "You do not see 50% of commercials targeting girls." as if these were facts that apply to everyone.

More than 50% of the gaming-related adverts I see target both men and women. The rest have a specific gender focus, but the number targeting men is not noticeable higher than those targeting women.



I'm saying I haven't noticed because I don't really go into those types of shops. I have no idea what their customer base is and I wouldn't use that anecdotal evidence to judge the whole gaming market.



I'm not saying that is your claim. But what are you using to judge the scale? Especially when a lot of popular games don't strongly focus on violence?

Could it have some affect? Yes absolutely. It is likely one of the factors behind the female % on PlayStation being lower than it is on Switch.



Surely people over 13 who have PlayStation accounts on PS4/PS5 are not an "untapped customer base". They are actual PlayStation customers. And 41% of them are female.

Again, all this anecdotal evidence from shopping or TV watching isn't going to be as representative as the actual data from Sony.

Edit: I appreciate the effort you put into the discussion.

I think what it boils down to is that you trust the poll, I don't.

If the poll was accurate, we would see evidence of its accuracy in the environment. We'd be able to test it out.

Take political polling. Half the country supports D & R. We can step outside, talk to people, look at various news outlets etc and see..."yeah, about half the country goes one way, the other half goes the other way."

We can't do that with this poll. There is no evidence in the environment that supports the validity of the poll.

- We can't ask the women in our lives because they all say very few of their friends play consoles.
- We can't ask gamers because they all give extremely low female participation numbers.
- We can't look at advertising because the majority of video game advertising goes towards male dominated programs.
- We can't look at the games themselves because the majority of games center around killing enemies.
- We can't look at game podcasts because that field is dominated by males.
- We can't go to game stores and see a 50/50 customer base.
- We can't look at female centric TV/movies and see female characters playing or talking about games.

It just doesn't add up. Truth leaves evidence behind. That poll should set everyones BS meter off. I'm amazed that some people actually buy it.

 

[Woopah]

I think what it boils down to is that you trust the poll, I don't.

If the poll was accurate, we would see evidence of its accuracy in the environment. We'd be able to test it out.

Take political polling. Half the country supports D & R. We can step outside, talk to people, look at various news outlets etc and see..."yeah, about half the country goes one way, the other half goes the other way."

We can't do that with this poll. There is no evidence in the environment that supports the validity of the poll.

- We can't ask the women in our lives because they all say very few of their friends play consoles.
- We can't ask gamers because they all give extremely low female participation numbers.
- We can't look at advertising because the majority of video game advertising goes towards male dominated programs.
- We can't look at the games themselves because the majority of games center around killing enemies.
- We can't look at game podcasts because that field is dominated by males.
- We can't go to game stores and see a 50/50 customer base.
- We can't look at female centric TV/movies and see female characters playing or talking about games.

It just doesn't add up. Truth leaves evidence behind. That poll should set everyones BS meter off. I'm amazed that some people actually buy it.

The evidence comes from Sony themselves. 41% of PlayStation account owners are female (for people 13 or over). That's a fact.

So why is it so unbelievable that the gender split for PS5 in its biggest market is similar to the PS gender split globally?

Let's say your right, and the Circana result is way off and the gender split for PS5 in the US is significantly under 41% for women. All that means is either:

1. The gender split for PS4 in the US is noticeably over 41%
2. The gender split for PlayStation outside the US is noticeably over 41%
3. A mixture of both.

Maybe the women spend less time shopping for games in Walmart, talking about games with their friends and hosting gaming podcasts than the men do.

But the important part is that they are actually using a video game console.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The evidence comes from Sony themselves. 41% of PlayStation account owners are female (for people 13 or over). That's a fact.

So why is it so unbelievable that the gender split for PS5 in its biggest market is similar to the PS gender split globally?

Let's say your right, and the Circana result is way off and the gender split for PS5 in the US is significantly under 41% for women. All that means is either:

1. The gender split for PS4 in the US is noticeably over 41%
2. The gender split for PlayStation outside the US is noticeably over 41%
3. A mixture of both.

Maybe the women spend less time shopping for games in Walmart, talking about games with their friends and hosting gaming podcasts than the men do.

But the important part is that they are actually using a video game console.

This feels like jumping through hoops to me.

It's believing the word of a sacred text without seeing evidence of its validity in the real world.

I can't believe something if I don't see evidence of it in my every day life if it's something as testable as hobby preferences among human beings.

The way I could be convinced of its validity is if you (or anyone) was able to come up with a test in order to reveal what I'mnot seeing. So far, your entire argument has been "Just trust the poll. The poll is sacred. It's blasphemous to doubt the poll."

I seek evidence of the polls validity.

 

[Lethal01]

- We can't ask the women in our lives because they all say very few of their friends play consoles.
- We can't ask gamers because they all give extremely low female participation numbers.
- We can't look at advertising because the majority of video game advertising goes towards male dominated programs.
- We can't look at female centric TV/movies and see female characters playing or talking about games.

These things haven't been true in my experience at all

and I think there is simply the case that women also like games that have fighting

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

These things haven't been true in my experience at all

and I think there is simply the case that women also like games that have fighting

I can't comprehend your reality. I've asked this question to plenty of people in online lobbies and the answer is always "O%, oh no I think Jessica plays...oh no wait...I don't know maybe 1% or 2%, something like that."

I've literally never gotten anyone to give me a number higher than 20%.

It's hard for me to believe that I've had an outlier orb floating around me my entire life.

Also, women don't like fighting as much as men.

 

[Woopah]

This feels like jumping through hoops to me.

It's believing the word of a sacred text without seeing evidence of its validity in the real world.

I can't believe something if I don't see evidence of it in my every day life if it's something as testable as hobby preferences among human beings.

The way I could be convinced of its validity is if you (or anyone) was able to come up with a test in order to reveal what I'mnot seeing. So far, your entire argument has been "Just trust the poll. The poll is sacred. It's blasphemous to doubt the poll."

I seek evidence of the polls validity.

I'm saying trust Sony's report to its investors.

When a company reports account data to investors, it has to actually use the real data. It can't just make things up.

Just so I can fully understand you position, are you saying Sony is lying? Or are you trying to say something else?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I'm saying trust Sony's report to its investors.

When a company reports account data to investors, it has to actually use the real data. It can't just make things up.

Just so I can fully understand you position, are you saying Sony is lying? Or are you trying to say something else?

I can't trust vague data that conflicts so strongly with my, and everyone around me, personal experience so drastically.

I can be wrong on this, but I'm going to need to see a different argument other than "Trust the sacred poll that you haven't seen and don't know all the details of." I need to see the 48% number reflected in the real world.

I'm saying I don't trust the validity of the poll. I make no claims about whether Sony is lying, mistaken, or obfuscating the truth.

 

[Woopah]

I can't trust vague data that conflicts so strongly with my, and everyone around me, personal experience so drastically.

I can be wrong on this, but I'm going to need to see a different argument other than "Trust the sacred poll that you haven't seen and don't know all the details of." I need to see the 48% number reflected in the real world.

I'm saying I don't trust the validity of the poll. I make no claims about whether Sony is lying, mistaken, or obfuscating the truth.

Then let's forget about the poll for now and focus on the Sony data.

When people register a PlayStation account, they tell Sony their gender and date of birth.

This is what has allowed Sony to tell their investors the age and gender breakdown of the current PlayStation audience.

Its how we know that 15% of their are 25-30, while nearly 20% are 31-36. And its also how we know 41% are female.

This data is official demographic %s presented to investors.

That's pretty strong evidence no?

 

[Lunarorbit]

I think the argument between Woopah and Men_in_Boxes helps show the evolution of gaming.

Only a few years ago most of us would have seriously doubted the 40% female console owners. All the polls that asked if women gamed were based on mobile apps.

The fact you two are having an argument is good for our industry.

 

[Woopah]

I think the argument between Woopah and Men_in_Boxes helps show the evolution of gaming.

Only a few years ago most of us would have seriously doubted the 40% female console owners. All the polls that asked if women gamed were based on mobile apps.

The fact you two are having an argument is good for our industry.

Thank you.

Gaming certainly used to be more male dominated. Sony told investors that only 18% of PS1 owners were women.

But since then the industry has grown and the gender balance has changed.

I would not be surprised if the current gender balance on Switch is less male dominated than it was on N64.

Early adopters of consoles can be quite male dominated, but Nintendo has noted how the release of the Switch Lite and then Animal Crossing helped change that.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Thank you.

Gaming certainly used to be more male dominated. Sony told investors that only 18% of PS1 owners were women.

But since then the industry has grown and the gender balance has changed.

I would not be surprised if the current gender balance on Switch is less male dominated than it was on N64.

Early adopters of consoles can be quite male dominated, but Nintendo has noted how the release of the Switch Lite and then Animal Crossing helped change that.

Oh yeah the switch probably has the most female gamers on it, like you guys were arguing. There are easily more women devs now than ever so that's also another metric to check. That probably has hard data yall can look at

Edit: https://www.statista.com/statistics/453634/game-developer-gender-distribution-worldwide/

Says 30% of devs in 2021 are women
Up 9% in 4 years from 2017

 

[Woopah]

Oh yeah the switch probably has the most female gamers on it, like you guys were arguing. There are easily more women devs now than ever so that's also another metric to check. That probably has hard data yall can look at

Edit: https://www.statista.com/statistics/453634/game-developer-gender-distribution-worldwide/

Says 30% of devs in 2021 are women
Up 9% in 4 years from 2017

I'd have to see the source of that statista graph first, but it wouldn't be surprising to see an increase.

But in general, it's important than any analysis is using a representative sample.

From people I know personally, the % with PlayStation accounts who are women is way less than 41%. Therefore this group is not representative of the whole PlayStation community.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Then let's forget about the poll for now and focus on the Sony data.

When people register a PlayStation account, they tell Sony their gender and date of birth.

This is what has allowed Sony to tell their investors the age and gender breakdown of the current PlayStation audience.

Its how we know that 15% of their are 25-30, while nearly 20% are 31-36. And its also how we know 41% are female.

This data is official demographic %s presented to investors.

That's pretty strong evidence no?

I wouldn't call the person setting up an account, the primary player / owner of the console.

They have polls showing that slightly more than half of TV watchers are female. You can scan Netflix, Amazon, Hulu title cards for 7 seconds to see that's a believable number.

You can't do that with the PlayStation storefront. The vast majority of games on the store are so obviously geared towards the male audience.

Why would gaming be so dramatically different than TV watching habits?

Now maybe you would say women don't spend or play at nearly the same rates as men do, but they still technically play + own consoles. I guess that's plausible, but I still have a hard time believing 48% of women are spending $600 dollars on a PS5 for themselves.

The eye test conflicts too strongly for me to buy that narrative.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I think the argument between Woopah and Men_in_Boxes helps show the evolution of gaming.

I know it's just semantics, but this isn't an argument. It's a discussion/disagreement. I enjoy communicating with people of differing perspectives.

 

[Woopah]

I wouldn't call the person setting up an account, the primary player / owner of the console.

They have polls showing that slightly more than half of TV watchers are female. You can scan Netflix, Amazon, Hulu title cards for 7 seconds to see that's a believable number.

You can't do that with the PlayStation storefront. The vast majority of games on the store are so obviously geared towards the male audience.

Why would gaming be so dramatically different than TV watching habits?

Now maybe you would say women don't spend or play at nearly the same rates as men do, but they still technically play + own consoles. I guess that's plausible, but I still have a hard time believing 48% of women are spending $600 dollars on a PS5 for themselves.

The eye test conflicts too strongly for me to buy that narrative.

Why would the person setting up the account not be a player of the console in the vast majorityof cases? Especially when this only applies people 13 and over

The trouble with the "eye test" is that it is completely reliant on one's own biases. Valorat's playerbase is 30% - 40% female, is that the result you get from the eye test?

It wouldn't have been what I thought.

Just a niggling thing, but the split for PlayStation is 41% not 48%, and Sony's data covers both PS4 and PS5 users.

And yes, I agree that men spending more time/money on gaming on average than women is certainly plausible.

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

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