Support NeoGAF

[Miles Quaritch]

Even crazy people tend to work off a plan. Zoom's "plans" seemed to change weekly.

Unless we work off the idea that each Zoom remnant had different motivations/goals?

That might explain why he goes from I love you Caitlin to I'm going to speed stab you in your baby maker because fuck you that's why.

Why did his stab go downwards anyway? Major dick move there...

 

[KonradLaw]

When I think about it the show turned the final confrontation with the monster Zoom into a race on a fucking hamster wheel. I mean...wtf.

Hopefully the writters got all the speedsters nonsence out of their system now and we can get return to greatness in S3.

 

[TDLink]

I feel like the hook for S3 is a bit weird. You can't really go bigger than Flashpoint and they're already doing it...seems like something better saved for further down the line. Also didn't feel like the right point in the story to have it happen since Barry literally accepted his mother's death 2 episodes ago...and suddenly he unaccepted it lol. I kinda feel like if this is what they wanted to do they really had to have Barry say "fuck it"...which would only make sense in this episode if he somehow lost to Zoom. But he beat him and saved Jay and could have had Iris or whatever...and then says fuck it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

On top of that there's no way Flashpoint affects the other shows outside of a crossover week (possibly). I also don't see any way it lasts for more than 3 episodes (and that might be generous) of this show. I guess we'll see what they do.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I feel like the hook for S3 is a bit weird. You can't really go bigger than Flashpoint and they're already doing it...seems like something better saved for further down the line. Also didn't feel like the right point in the story to have it happen since Barry literally accepted his mother's death 2 episodes ago...and suddenly he unaccepted it lol. I kinda feel like if this is what they wanted to do they really had to have Barry say "fuck it"...which would only make sense in this episode if he somehow lost to Zoom. But he beat him and saved Jay and could have had Iris or whatever...and then says fuck it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

On top of that there's no way Flashpoint affects the other shows outside of a crossover week (possibly). I also don't see any way it lasts for more than 3 episodes (and that might be generous) of this show. I guess we'll see what they do.

eh, he just lost his dad. I think that's enough motivation to go "fuck it".

 

[KonradLaw]

http://imgur.com/a/Juqoh

That's so mean and yet so funny

 

[Maximo]

Hopefully Season 3 can drag Flash's rotting corpse out of the grave and redeem itself, what a terrible second half of what could have been a amazing season.

 

[KonradLaw]

I think bad writing in Arrow makes the show suffer more than The Flash because Arrow is meant to be a more grounded experience, so the bad writing stands out more than say, Hunter Zolomon getting his past self to kill himself on The Flash.

Only in dialogues though. Arrow being grounded means that as far as plot goes they can never reach the sheer stupidity Flash often goes for. Arrow in the end is a crime story. It might get dumb romatic drama and some people will act like idiots, but it still stays more or less coherent.

Flash is a science-fiction show, it needs far more suspension of dibelief and when they start to completely ignore the rules they've laid before it hurts the show far more, as the whole series starts to unravel.

 

[Glass Rebel]

There's only one rule in Flash and they've been very consistent about that.

 

[Joni]

There's only one rule in Flash and they've been very consistent about that.

Barry is the slowest fastest man alive?

 

[Permanently A]

That's what I liked about it though. He's just a crazy guy who happened to get super speed.

Well yeah, that was great. That was the Zoom we saw in Enter Zoom. That was the chilling Zoom we saw on Earth-2.

The "Zoom" part of Zoom is great. The Hunter Zoloman part of Zoom, not so much.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

When I think about it the show turned the final confrontation with the monster Zoom into a race on a fucking hamster wheel. I mean...wtf.

Hopefully the writters got all the speedsters nonsence out of their system now and we can get return to greatness in S3.

I don't even know how winning a race would help him anyway.

 

[neorej]

http://imgur.com/a/Juqoh

Brilliant.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Barry is the slowest fastest man alive?

"My name is Barry Allen and I am, like, really fast. Like top 5, for sure..."

 

[- J - D -]

Finally watched the finale. It's a real mess and this season's been kind of a bummer but let's forget all of that because the Flashpoint potential is strong. Just the possible idea of Robert Queen possibly assisting Barry fix the messed up timeline is so tantalizing. While I doubt that whatever this new timeline turns out to be will encompass all 4 Arrowverse shows, I hope that at some point most if not all characters across those shows will appear in The Flash next season.

Anyway, I'd give The Flash season 2 a 6.5/10. It's been rough for most of the season after the optimistic early goings and never really recovered, even with the promise of some weird shit next season as a stinger.

Still better than Arrow S3 though. Tied with Arrow S4.

season rankings.
Arrow S4 > The Flash S2 > Legends of Tomorrow

 

[TDLink]

eh, he just lost his dad. I think that's enough motivation to go "fuck it".

Ok then why not go back and save his dad instead of his mom? The entire Speedforce episode a few weeks ago was literally about him accepting his mother's death and getting over it. That's why he was so happy and confident last week. This seems like complete character reversion less than two episodes later.

It's simply the writers contriving a way into the Flashpoint plot because it's something they want to do. Again though, it doesn't make a lot of sense for it to be happening now specifically and I can't see a realistic way it will be done well. It's a TV show that will have to return to the status quo pretty quickly due to existing in a universe with other shows, which will seemingly barely have an effect on those shows...making the whole shared universe thing kinda whatever at the same time.

Finally watched the finale. It's a real mess and this season's been kind of a bummer but let's forget all of that because the Flashpoint potential is strong. Just the possible idea of Robert Queen possibly assisting Barry fix the messed up timeline is so tantalizing. While I doubt that whatever this new timeline turns out to be will encompass all 4 Arrowverse shows, I hope that at some point most if not all characters across those shows will appear in The Flash next season.

Anyway, I'd give The Flash season 2 a 6.5/10. It's been rough for most of the season after the optimistic early goings and never really recovered, even with the promise of some weird shit next season as a stinger.

Still better than Arrow S3 though. Tied with Arrow S4.

season rankings.
Arrow S4 > The Flash S2 > Legends of Tomorrow

Eh, this season wasn't as good as Flash S1 but that was just exceptionally good. Flash S2, despite its faults, is still leaps and bounds better than the other DC shows. Arrow S4 is a bit better than 3 but it's still pretty awful this year. Like I might drop it for next season awful. The choreography and direction has gotten a lot worse. The plot doesn't make a lot of sense (especially the flashbacks) and feels further disconnected. I mean they literally set off a nuke in an American city only for it to have...absolutely no repercussions either on that show or the other CW DC shows. Felicity has become completely awful and part of the time the show literally feels centered on her now, which is just bizarre. I feel like Neal McDonough's charisma has carried the season entirely on its own. I can't see any world where Arrow S4 is better than Flash S2, or even considered good.

Legends of Tomorrow has some promise and I like its campy style, but it needs a lot of work to really be good in Season 2.

 

[Joni]

I don't even know how winning a race would help him anyway.

Zoom would not try to kill his family?

 

[neorej]

Zoom would not try to kill his family?

Because you can always trust an evil psychopath's word.

 

[Joni]

Because you can always trust an evil psychopath's word.

That would be a problem to cross at that point. He would solve the urgent problem: preventing Zoom to target someone else than Henry. It also puts Zoom close to Barry. It basically gave him 500 rotations to try and kill Zoom.

 

[ZeroX03]

Because you can always trust an evil psychopath's word.

He let Wally go before he even received Barry's speed!

 

[- J - D -]

Eh, this season wasn't as good as Flash S1 but that was just exceptionally good. Flash S2, despite its faults, is still leaps and bounds better than the other DC shows. Arrow S4 is a bit better than 3 but it's still pretty awful this year. Like I might drop it for next season awful. The choreography and direction has gotten a lot worse. The plot doesn't make a lot of sense (especially the flashbacks) and feels further disconnected. I mean they literally set off a nuke in an American city only for it to have...absolutely no repercussions either on that show or the other CW DC shows. Felicity has become completely awful and part of the time the show literally feels centered on her now, which is just bizarre. I feel like Neal McDonough's charisma has carried the season entirely on its own. I can't see any world where Arrow S4 is better than Flash S2, or even considered good.

Legends of Tomorrow has some promise and I like its campy style, but it needs a lot of work to really be good in Season 2.

Expectations come into play pretty hard in my determination.

After season 3 I set my expectations for Arrow so abysmally low that season 4 actually ended up tolerable by comparison. Dahrk is always very fun, Ollie doesn't brood much at all, Diggle is given more to do, Thea became awesome, Laurel became kinda cool (

Spoiler

then died

, so this is good or bad depending on perspective). Team Arrow had been on point throughout this season with the exception of...Felicity and her drama. Despite that, it's been a rocky but generally enjoyable season.

For Flash, season 1 left me ecstatic. It raised the bar really high for CW show quality, and by comparison season 2 was a huge letdown. It's a mess.

Legends...I can't stand that the thrust of the show revolved around The Hawks. They're thinly written characters and their opposition is supremely obnoxious.

EDIT: I should note that I have not yet seen the Arrow S4 finale. lol.

 

[Skux]

I can understand the negativity about how the season ended, but the first half of this season was actually great, and most of the episodes in the second half were up there too.

We got:
- Patty Spivot
- Legends of Tomorrow setups (Snart, Firestorm, Hawks/Vandal) that paid off in LoT and were much more interesting than random villains of the week
- The Doctor Light two-parter
- Grodd, even better the second time around
- The Earth-2 two-parter
- Trickster and King Shark

The Zoom reveal ruined the final third (until then he was a pretty terrifying villain), and left a sour taste in everyone's mouth. But apart from that, I trust the writers still know how to write great Flash episodes.

If the season were a nice round 20 episodes we could have cut down on the padding and silly flip-flopping in the final few episodes.

 

[BLOODED_hands]

Barry is the slowest fastest man alive?

That and being a walking L.

 

[Permanently A]

 

[King Gilga]

That finale felt really rushed and hacked together.

 

[TDLink]

Expectations come into play pretty hard in my determination.

After season 3 I set my expectations for Arrow so abysmally low that season 4 actually ended up tolerable by comparison. Dahrk is always very fun, Ollie doesn't brood much at all, Diggle is given more to do, Thea became awesome, Laurel became kinda cool (

Spoiler

then died

, so this is good or bad depending on perspective). Team Arrow had been on point throughout this season with the exception of...Felicity and her drama. Despite that, it's been a rocky but generally enjoyable season.

For Flash, season 1 left me ecstatic. It raised the bar really high for CW show quality, and by comparison season 2 was a huge letdown. It's a mess.

Legends...I can't stand that the thrust of the show revolved around The Hawks. They're thinly written characters and their opposition is supremely obnoxious.

EDIT: I should note that I have not yet seen the Arrow S4 finale. lol.

I get what you're saying but even if you had lower expectations for Arrow and raised expectations for Flash, surely you can identify that the Flash is still a better show than Arrow right now. Flash S2's main problem is that Zoom was a bit weak and didn't have strong motivations. Or rather...his motivations changed every other episode. The characters, acting, effects, etc is all still consistently strong though. Arrow's problems are a lot more fundamental. Weak characters repeating the same narratives seemingly cyclically, so much focus put on a supporting character that it seems like she's the main at times, not enough for many of the rest of the cast to do, decreased quality of direction and choreography, increasingly disconnected flashback plot, worse primary plot, etc.

Plus when Flash has a huge world changing event it actually has an effect on the characters and plot.

Arrow literally nukes a town at the end of the episode and no one cares at all after that, nor does it have an effect on the characters or plot.

It's night and day.

 

[KonradLaw]

I get what you're saying but even if you had lower expectations for Arrow and raised expectations for Flash, surely you can identify that the Flash is still a better show than Arrow right now.

.

Nah. As a whole Arrow has been better this season than Flash. Much more consistent, far less stupidity too. Better handled the spin-off building duties too. Plus the whole season didn't feel like boring pointless retread of previous one. Plus Darkh spanks Zoom silly. Not to mention Arrow actually had storylines for it's side characters. On Flash this season both Caitlin and Cisco they were nothing but background decorations.

 

[DJwest]

He let Wally go before he even received Barry's speed!

And they still went ahead and gave him Barry's speed. One of the biggest WTF moments of the season. They should ask Rip and the LOT crew to teach them how to handle prisoner exchanges lol

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Zoom would not try to kill his family?

How is running ahead of Zoom going to do anything?

Winning a race as a means to defeating Zoom is dumb as hell when the act of doing so charges up the very weapon that will destroy the multiverse.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Maybe they blew most of their budget on the slo-mo fight earlier in the episode and the race was the best they could do with what was left in the budget?


To be honest, I thought the face was going to be way for Zoom to enter the speed force and mess with time.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

How is running ahead of Zoom going to do anything?

Winning a race as a means to defeating Zoom is dumb as hell when the act of doing so charges up the very weapon that will destroy the multiverse.

Yeah, I didn't really get what that was about. Did Barry always have that plan to create a time remnant? Probably not since he could have told Team Flash he had a plan so they'd let him out of the cell. I can't really blame them for locking him up because from their perspective his plan amounted to "I'm going to do what Zoom wants and power up his device, but I'll outrun him."

And was Team Flash not aware that Zoom could create breaches? They had to have known since he presumably brought all those Earth 2 villains over. So their plan was to send him back to Earth 2 so he could just waltz back?

I think the issue is Zoom's plan changes several times in the last few episodes. We go from steal Barry's speed, which was what had been established for a bit, to bringing over metahumans and terrorizing Earth 1, to destroying the multiverse.

Also the characters had almost no reaction to Zoom as an actual threat. He had kidnapped multiple people and killed Henry, but everyone just went back to the house where Zoom could find them. It sorta kills the tension because they don't seem that worried that a speedster serial killer is after them. Reverse Flash seemed pretty intent on making Barry suffer. Zoom gave Barry a mourning period and then challenged him to a race. It's a huge step down from how threatening Reverse Flash was last season, or even this season in "Flash Back."

 

[- J - D -]

I get what you're saying but even if you had lower expectations for Arrow and raised expectations for Flash, surely you can identify that the Flash is still a better show than Arrow right now. Flash S2's main problem is that Zoom was a bit weak and didn't have strong motivations. Or rather...his motivations changed every other episode. The characters, acting, effects, etc is all still consistently strong though. Arrow's problems are a lot more fundamental. Weak characters repeating the same narratives seemingly cyclically, so much focus put on a supporting character that it seems like she's the main at times, not enough for many of the rest of the cast to do, decreased quality of direction and choreography, increasingly disconnected flashback plot, worse primary plot, etc.

Plus when Flash has a huge world changing event it actually has an effect on the characters and plot.

Arrow literally nukes a town at the end of the episode and no one cares at all after that, nor does it have an effect on the characters or plot.

It's night and day.

I should reiterate that I haven't seen Arrow season 4's finale so maybe my opinion currently will change by tomorrow night. We'll see.

You're telling me that I should be able to identify that The Flash season 2 is a better show than Arrow currently, but that's not something that can be done purely objectively. You go into these things with differing expectations, it's unavoidable.

Arrow nuke's a town and the aftermath gets very little play. That is indeed frustrating, but there is a greater threat still looming and the characters don't have time to mope. I get it. That is acceptable for now.

With The Flash season 2, time travel shenanigans constantly threaten the plot with unavoidable questions pertaining to the show's internal logic. Throw time travel logic out the window, that's fine, but the internal logic still matters. I actually wonder if world-changing events even matter given Barry's penchant for fucking things up. A lot of times, even when he messes things up, things work out okay anyway. Go back in time and mess with a bunch of shit? Oh, nothing's actually changed for the worse, heck, Pied Piper is a good guy! Chalk it up as a win for Team Flash. The stakes are constantly in flux when time travel is involved, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if the plot is generally compelling and the villain's schemes do a good job at fueling that plot. In this regard, Zoom is like a huge void in season 2. It's nonsense and once the mask comes off, he's no longer even a menacing threat thanks to the milquetoast quality of Teddy Sears.

moving beyond that, we have the characters. Barry gets worse as the season progresses, none of the female characters except for Patty get decent writing, and even Patty gets unceremoniously booted off the show in the worst way. Henry Allen fares even worse -- he leaves the show for contrived reasons only to show up to die near the end. Joe and Cisco are constants, it'd be difficult to mess them up. Jesse and Wally are flat and unmemorable. That leaves Wells 2 as the standout. Great.

The cg has been good, I'll give The Flash that much.

In the end I think, aside from expectations going in, the quality of a villain's schemes plays a lot into how I'll end up receiving a show. Once Dahrk's grand plan was unveiled near the end, I thought it was kinda coo, what with the Ark and all. Zoom? Nah. It's just super lame and nonsensical.

 

[neorej]

He let Wally go before he even received Barry's speed!

Fair point, yeah, Zoom isn't such an ass after all. He just wants to be the fastest man alive.

 

[Entropia]

I watched the episode last night... we getting Flashpoint Paradox or something here?

 

[Joni]

How is running ahead of Zoom going to do anything?

Winning a race as a means to defeating Zoom is dumb as hell when the act of doing so charges up the very weapon that will destroy the multiverse.

So you think he was just going to run there without trying to punch Zoom? Neither Zoom nor Barry expected that they would end the fight based on Barry just running a bit ahead of Zoom. There were two simple rules: don't stop running or I'll go kill someone; and catch up to me to punch me.

 

[neorej]

So you think he was just going to run there without trying to punch Zoom? Neither Zoom nor Barry expected that they would end the fight based on Barry just running a bit ahead of Zoom. There were two simple rules: don't stop running or I'll go kill someone; and catch up to me to punch me.

Three rules; if you haven't punched me after 500 laps, the magnetar will fiar a pulsar creating a wavar and detroyars all the othar earthars. But you and your friends will be fine.

 

[Joni]

Three rules; if you haven't punched me after 500 laps, the magnetar will fiar a pulsar creating a wavar and detroyars all the othar earthars. But you and your friends will be fine.

I believe he also made it clear he would kill them if he won. But it is not like it was really hard to understand why Zoom laid it out that way and why Barry's only option to beat Zoom was running.

 

[neorej]

I believe he also made it clear he would kill them if he won. But it is not like it was really hard to understand why Zoom laid it out that way and why Barry's only option to beat Zoom was running.

Then why would Barry run if Zoom would murdar his friends eithar way?

 

[Joni]

Then why would Barry run if Zoom would murdar his friends eithar way?

Because it was his only shot at beating Zoom... He wasn't thinking, "let's win this race and Zoom and I will become friends".

 

[neorej]

Because it was his only shot at beating Zoom... He wasn't thinking, "let's win this race and Zoom and I will become friends".

His aim was murdar Zoom before he could fiar the pulsar created by the magnetar powered by the speedstars.

 

[Indelible]

The finale definitely felt rushed and Zoom kinda went out like a bitch. I liked the season overall but it was a step down from the first season in quality.

 

[Card Boy]

I think the show is amazing and was a step up from Season 1. Cannot wait till Season, show destroys Arrow.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

Because it was his only shot at beating Zoom... He wasn't thinking, "let's win this race and Zoom and I will become friends".

This is going to sound crazy, but I would have liked that. Like how in Dragonball Goku usually manages to turn enemies into friends. I know that wasn't Barry's thinking, but it would have been a good character moment to have him beat Zoom by being nothing like him. Zoom wanted to prove that the only thing between him and Barry was tragedy...and he was sorta right. Barry became unhinged after Henry was killed, wanted revenge, adopted one of Zoom's tactics to gain the upper hand, and then abused the speed force to kill Zoom.

Zoom is beyond redemption but I was waiting for a moment where Barry proved he was better. They even set that up with Barry about to kill Zoom with his bare hands, and then he killed him another way.

 

[Joni]

The finale definitely felt rushed and Zoom kinda went out like a bitch.

He deserved that, and it leads to a potentially bigger scary villain.

This is going to sound crazy, but I would have liked that. Like how in Dragonball Goku usually manages to turn enemies into friends.

I don't know if you watch it, but you would love Naruto. But I don't think this Barry is mature enough for it.

 

[Future]

"I've finally come to grips with my mom dying"

*Fuck this, I'm gonna go back in time to save my mom.



"Zoom can create breaches between Earth-1 and Earth-2. Let's create a breach to send him to Earth-2 so we'll be safe."



With scientists like this, you don't need villains. Zoom, Reverse Flash, King Shark, they can all just sit back, have a coke and watch Cisco, Caitlin and Barry fuck up the planet.

That's what I didn't understand. Why send him to earth 2 if he could just create a breach and get back to earth one in a nano second?

That and the fast explanation of time remnants when I barely recall even seeing one on previous flashes made the entire episode very hard to follow. Why not for any fight make like 10 time remnants and just win everything? 10 flashes surely can save the world right?

Do they do that time remnant shit in the comics? Or is it stopped by the idea that time wraiths will fuck him over if he ever did that

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

That's what I didn't understand. Why send him to earth 2 if he could just create a breach and get back to earth one in a nano second?

That and the fast explanation of time remnants when I barely recall even seeing one on previous flashes made the entire episode very hard to follow. Why not for any fight make like 10 time remnants and just win everything? 10 flashes surely can save the world right?

Do they do that time remnant shit in the comics? Or is it stopped by the idea that time wraiths will fuck him over if he ever did that

Our heroes can seal the breachs.
That's what they did when they sent him back. It's why they were fine with sacrificing Joe.

Zoom kept Joe alive because he knew Barry would come for him.
He used Joe as bait so Barry could reopen the breach (thru Cisco)

 

[Joni]

That's what I didn't understand. Why send him to earth 2 if he could just create a breach and get back to earth one in a nano second?

That and the fast explanation of time remnants when I barely recall even seeing one on previous flashes made the entire episode very hard to follow. Why not for any fight make like 10 time remnants and just win everything? 10 flashes surely can save the world right?

Do they do that time remnant shit in the comics? Or is it stopped by the idea that time wraiths will fuck him over if he ever did that

They would get annihilated by wraiths if they ever had so many time remnants flying around. He never kept his remnants around for very long.

 

[neorej]

Our heroes can seal the breachs.
That's what they did when they sent him back. It's why they were fine with sacrificing Joe.

Zoom kept Joe alive because he knew Barry would come for him.
He used Joe as bait so Barry could reopen the breach (thru Cisco)

Zoom created a breach at will in the police station when Barry and Cisco were using bouncing waves on a specific frequency to incapacitate the Earth-2 villain metas, or do I remember wrong?

 

[piratepwnsninja]

Zoom created a breach at will in the police station when Barry and Cisco were using bouncing waves on a specific frequency to incapacitate the Earth-2 villain metas, or do I remember wrong?

Nope, that definitely happened.

 

[Emarv]

Do you guys remember Patty?


Good times, good times.

 

[Kyoufu]

Do you guys remember Patty?


Good times, good times.

I'm glad she's gone. I couldn't take Barry being dumb anymo-- wait a minute Barry is always dumb!