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[FunkMiller]

There is a ton of stuff they could do if they keep it centered on Numenor. Play up their colonial exploits. Play up the drama of the elves midlife crisis (the angst they face as they observe the numenoreans rising to power and their own time diminishing).

Almost all the characters are going to have be created from scratch, as will be their dialogue. There are only hints of motivations and personalities in the texts. But there is a decent amount of framework they can draft something out of if they use it as an outline.

Ok. But where is any of that in the build up we’ve had? Where’s the actual story? What’s the driving force of the story?

In HotD it’s the fight to gain the Iron Throne in a duplicitous family. In LotR it’s to destroy a magic ring to save the world from evil.

What is Rings Of Power about?

Because if it doesn’t have a compelling story, it’s going to die on its arse. Skin colour, gender or accuracy won’t even come into it.

And I’ve seen no evidence of a compelling story being indicated so far…

 

[Ulysses 31]

Ok. But where is any of that in the build up we’ve had? Where’s the actual story? What’s the driving force of the story?

In HotD it’s the fight to gain the Iron Throne in a duplicitous family. In LotR it’s to destroy a magic ring to save the world from evil.

What is Rings Of Power about?

Because if it doesn’t have a compelling story, it’s going to die on its arse. Skin colour, gender or accuracy won’t even come into it.

And I’ve seen no evidence of a compelling story being indicated so far…

If the leaks are anything to go by it will partially be about the rise of Sauron since it will be revealed by the end of season 1 who it is.

 

[FunkMiller]

If the leaks are anything to go by it will partially about the rise of Sauron since it will be revealed by the end of season 1 who it is.

If the only source of information about the story of this show comes from unconfirmed leaks, then I am not what you would call optimistic about what we're getting.

So far, all I really know from everything I've officially seen about this show is that its set thousands of year before Lord Of The Rings (you know... the actual story of this universe, where all this other gubbins is just backstory) has something to do with Galadriel, maybe Sauron, and features a black dwarf woman. I genuinely struggle to fill in many more blanks, and I've been watching the trailers.

What is this bloody thing about?

 

[ManaByte]

If the only source of information about the story of this show comes from unconfirmed leaks, then I am not what you would call optimistic about what we're getting.

So far, all I really know from everything I've officially seen about this show is that its set thousands of year before Lord Of The Rings (you know... the actual story of this universe, where all this other gubbins is just backstory) has something to do with Galadriel, maybe Sauron, and features a black dwarf woman. I genuinely struggle to fill in many more blanks, and I've been watching the trailers.

What is this bloody thing about?

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/lord-of-the-rings-rings-of-power-amazon-series-1235156784/

“The Rings of Power unites all the major stories of Middle-earth’s Second Age: the forging of the rings, the rise of the Dark Lord Sauron, the epic tale of Númenor, and the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

That's interesting.
I wonder how much of the fact that every single trailer piece they put out gets instantly ratioed will translate into actual reality in the form of (non-)viewers.

I also think that it is not a huge problem that they are inventing new stories within Tolkien's universe. I think that would actually be appreciated by fans if done in a faithful manner. The main problem is their pandering to the woke. The creators made that very clear that this is their main objective, and they are getting what they deserve now.

I think they will spin it any way possible to make the show look like a success. They own IMDB so I fully expect bad reviews to be removed like RT did a couple of years ago.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/lord-of-the-rings-rings-of-power-amazon-series-1235156784/

So, will Celeborn be in the story?

 

[BaneIsPain]

I think they will spin it any way possible to make the show look like a success. They own IMDB so I fully expect bad reviews to be removed like RT did a couple of years ago.

No matter what, it will always be a success in their eyes. At least from that article.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

If the only source of information about the story of this show comes from unconfirmed leaks, then I am not what you would call optimistic about what we're getting.

So far, all I really know from everything I've officially seen about this show is that its set thousands of year before Lord Of The Rings (you know... the actual story of this universe, where all this other gubbins is just backstory) has something to do with Galadriel, maybe Sauron, and features a black dwarf woman. I genuinely struggle to fill in many more blanks, and I've been watching the trailers.

What is this bloody thing about?

Tolkien would disagree. For him, the main story of the universe was the First Age stories, particularly the Great Tales (Lay of Leithian, The Children of Turin, and the Fall of Gondolin) were the "actual story" of the universe. The Hobbit was a story he wrote on a whim, which he tied into his First Age stories for fun as an injoke for himself. And Lord of the Ring was written at his publishers request when Hobbit did well. Silmarillion was his passion.

 

[lifa-cobex]

No matter what, it will always be a success in their eyes. At least from that article.

It will all boil down to money.
With anything, If profit is lower than spending then I class it as failed.
That's all shareholders care about.

I've only just got around to watching the trailer.
I know it's been said a ton of times but that fucking music.
LOTR and hobbit films have a very distinct sound track that you could probably recognize without the films or being told it's from said films.


At least try to capture that magic even a little.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

I predict it's going to be a pretty pile of poop.

 

[jason10mm]

The only way I see this being a financial success is through a big prime price hike with strong member retention or if they rent/sell the show separately. They spent a BILLION dollars on this, thats like 10 MILLION new annual prime members to just break even!

Can they sell merch? Are we gonna get RoP monopoly and clue? Plushies of that dwarf lady? A graphic novel adaptation? Kids books?

Well see if prime video crashes on Friday

 

[Kimahri]

Them completely failing to communicate what the story is, is one of my biggest gripes. Yes, we know it's Galadriel, and yes, we know some stuff that will happen due to those of us who've read the material it's based on, but the trailers completely fail to give any hook whatsoever. If you're completely ignorant of this time period, what is this show about? And with all the changes they've obviously made, what is this show about?

I was hoping Comic-Con would give answer, but all we really got was "first female dwarf EVER", "an iconic moment", "I'm an activist, he's an activist, we're all activists", diversity, representation, finally reaching out to audiences it wasn't available to (?). And I'm left just wondering what the fuck they're talking about.

I'm not going into any form of entertainment because it has diversity. I go in for what I hope will be a good story with good characters. Big, huge, epic and gorgeous means nothing if the story isn't there. Just look at 300 for a movie I was super hyped for, only to be bored within the first few minutes. It needs a story.

And to even suggest that books that have sold over 150 million copies, that are available in every book store, in every library, movies that are among the biggest in history, were not available to everyone, is pure hubris. Tolkien's works are loved globally by people of all ethnicities and genders, and for Amazon to come in here and talk like they're fixing one of the greatest pieces of literature is some bullshit.

Oh well, just a few days left now and we'll see.

I really wonder how the reaction to this show would be if Amazon had focused on the show itself, instead of pushing out fluff videos with influencers talking about seeing themselves on screen.

Some of my favorites movies growing up were from Japan and Korea, and I sure as hell didn't feel left out for not seeing myself in those things.

 

[sol_bad]

Who cares what the story is, they don't need to market that in the marketing. It's LOTR, a well know IP and anyone/everyone that is aware of that IP would decide whether they'd watch it based on that fact. For anyone that doesn't know LOTR, they'll still know it's fantasy based and watch it or not watch it based on that fact.

You'll learn the story as it airs and like it or dislike it as it progresses. The less known the better to be honest, I'm excited that I know absolutely nothing about the story.

And let's be honest, there is already a segment of people in here who are convinced this show is a big steaming pile of shit without having even seen a single second of the actual show. The only reason you want to know more about the story is so you have more fuel for your fabricated shit flinging.

 

[BadBurger]

No matter what, it will always be a success in their eyes. At least from that article.

That's what all of these services do. When the next "big show" releases they change the metrics of what they consider a success. X minutes watched in the first week used to be full episodes watched in x amount of time by y number of households, etc. And since they're able to hide the data they can't be held accountable.

It doesn't matter if people drop off after the first episode and critics ravage it (or are merely lukewarm towards it), Amazon will find a way to demonstrate that is the most watched, most well-loved, most physically powerful and virile TV show ever even conceived, let alone a show that mankind had the audacity to create, knowing the way it would cause millions to spontaneously orgasm upon viewing it.

 

[jason10mm]

Who cares what the story is, they don't need to market that in the marketing. It's LOTR, a well know IP and anyone/everyone that is aware of that IP would decide whether they'd watch it based on that fact. For anyone that doesn't know LOTR, they'll still know it's fantasy based and watch it or not watch it based on that fact.

You'll learn the story as it airs and like it or dislike it as it progresses. The less known the better to be honest, I'm excited that I know absolutely nothing about the story.

And let's be honest, there is already a segment of people in here who are convinced this show is a big steaming pile of shit without having even seen a single second of the actual show. The only reason you want to know more about the story is so you have more fuel for your fabricated shit flinging.

Well, to be fair we are just going off what AMAZON is putting out. It's THEIR marketing creating this divisive environment. It's not like there is some sort of insider leaked footage pooping up their messaging.

Amazon itself isn't putting a real tight plot synopsis out, look at the splash page...

So, much like the early reviews suggest, I think those first couple eps at least are gonna be ALL OVER THE PLACE. So it had better look real purdy, have immediately connectable characters, and start to push the through line because this has slooooooooowwwwww buuuurrrrnnnn written all over it. Hope I'm wrong though and it is a good mix of action, quiet contemplation, and constant plot driving narrative with characters that are instantly relatable, feel organic to the world, and have an appeal to universal human values.

 

[Punished Miku]

this has slooooooooowwwwww buuuurrrrnnnn written all over it.

That's actually going to be one of its main strengths, if it turns out its done well. The movie format is barely big enough to handle LOTR. Took 3 films with extended editions and still a lot was cut. TV with production quality of the movies is the best case scenario for them to take their time and flesh out the world.

 

[Lady Jane]

Well, to be fair we are just going off what AMAZON is putting out. It's THEIR marketing creating this divisive environment. It's not like there is some sort of insider leaked footage pooping up their messaging.

Amazon itself isn't putting a real tight plot synopsis out, look at the splash page...

So, much like the early reviews suggest, I think those first couple eps at least are gonna be ALL OVER THE PLACE. So it had better look real purdy, have immediately connectable characters, and start to push the through line because this has slooooooooowwwwww buuuurrrrnnnn written all over it. Hope I'm wrong though and it is a good mix of action, quiet contemplation, and constant plot driving narrative with characters that are instantly relatable, feel organic to the world, and have an appeal to universal human values.

Yeah, I'm getting "lets use this show to kickstart spinoffs" vibes already.

 

[FunkMiller]

Well, to be fair we are just going off what AMAZON is putting out. It's THEIR marketing creating this divisive environment. It's not like there is some sort of insider leaked footage pooping up their messaging.

Amazon itself isn't putting a real tight plot synopsis out, look at the splash page...

So, much like the early reviews suggest, I think those first couple eps at least are gonna be ALL OVER THE PLACE. So it had better look real purdy, have immediately connectable characters, and start to push the through line because this has slooooooooowwwwww buuuurrrrnnnn written all over it. Hope I'm wrong though and it is a good mix of action, quiet contemplation, and constant plot driving narrative with characters that are instantly relatable, feel organic to the world, and have an appeal to universal human values.

Yeah. That's a description of a setting, not a story.

Not encouraged at all.

 

[AJUMP23]

I might have convinced my wife to watch, and she hates fantasy. I just said they spent 50 million an episode.

 

[jason10mm]

That's actually going to be one of its main strengths, if it turns out its done well. The movie format is barely big enough to handle LOTR. Took 3 films with extended editions and still a lot was cut. TV with production quality of the movies is the best case scenario for them to take their time and flesh out the world.

I dunno, my tolerance for "it takes till the second season before it picks up!" over-indulgent writing fluctuates. Even in the context of laying the ground work, proper storytelling can have middle goals, intra-episode periods of character growth, and plot arcs that take less than 10 HOURS of show to resolve. There used to be lots of techniques for achieving this, primarily using characters that are immediately relatable to the audience so origins and motivations can be highly abbreviated because "rebellious teenaged daughter", "sassy neighbor", "boorish boss" don't require much set-up and can be used in the service of main character growth. Ensemble casts practically REQUIRE this, though I think this show is gonna have like 5 different arcs that don't actually intersect, so each ep is gonna be 10 minutes of the character you like and 40 of "those other guys" or each ep will just handle a couple characters kinda like GoT. My faith that this writing team can pull that off is low, but I'll cup the flame as long as possible

I expect lots of scenes of just two characters having largely meaningless dialogue without much plot specifics with little evidence of how they got there and where they will go next that can be edited into each other with little concern for continuity. Concepts of distance, travel time, and space will be compressed to the point where Middle-Earth will feel like someones backyard. Hope I'm wrong though and this has a proper EPIC feel with tangible stakes, real consequences for actions, and motivations that make sense.

 

[Kimahri]

Who cares what the story is, they don't need to market that in the marketing. It's LOTR, a well know IP and anyone/everyone that is aware of that IP would decide whether they'd watch it based on that fact. For anyone that doesn't know LOTR, they'll still know it's fantasy based and watch it or not watch it based on that fact.

You'll learn the story as it airs and like it or dislike it as it progresses. The less known the better to be honest, I'm excited that I know absolutely nothing about the story.

And let's be honest, there is already a segment of people in here who are convinced this show is a big steaming pile of shit without having even seen a single second of the actual show. The only reason you want to know more about the story is so you have more fuel for your fabricated shit flinging.

Bullshit. I was excited for this show until Amazon's shitty marketing campaign focused on anything but the important stuff, and didn't even bother to give us a hook to sell it on.

Game of thrones has it in it's title, rings of power doesn't even have a ring.

The marketing is shit.

 

[lifa-cobex]

Well, to be fair we are just going off what AMAZON is putting out. It's THEIR marketing creating this divisive environment. It's not like there is some sort of insider leaked footage pooping up their messaging.

Amazon itself isn't putting a real tight plot synopsis out, look at the splash page...

So, much like the early reviews suggest, I think those first couple eps at least are gonna be ALL OVER THE PLACE. So it had better look real purdy, have immediately connectable characters, and start to push the through line because this has slooooooooowwwwww buuuurrrrnnnn written all over it. Hope I'm wrong though and it is a good mix of action, quiet contemplation, and constant plot driving narrative with characters that are instantly relatable, feel organic to the world, and have an appeal to universal human values.

I remember watching LOTR in the cinema. I was young so the intro about the rings of power and all that went way over my head.
Too busy looking at the awesome battle.
However when the story actually starts, It takes everything away and starts small. Nice peaceful music with some lad meeting up with his wizard mate for a party.
It slowly builds up to the adventure. It also slowly introduces people into the story. It's a liner tail but a lot is going on around it if your invested by that point.
The hobbit film pretty much copy's this exact same formula for the most part.
It's only by the second film that paths have diverged and more politics are introduced. But you've got the basics down.
Even if you don't understand one persons journey or politics. You can probably follow another.
It's also a reason I believe why these films are so beloved but goes unnoticed. Like good sci-fi, it's a slow burn with good payouts.
You can re-watch it with knowledge of the journey but it always gets me at how peaceful and simple the start is.

I've got a horrid feeling that your right.
It's going to go down the GOT rout. That's not to say i hate GOT. (Early to mid seasons anyway.)
But that's GOT story structure. It's very complex with a little fantasy on top for the early seasons. It's all about the politics and I think that's why people loved GOT for GOT.
People wanted to know more about the fantasy parts as it felt like a direct clash to what was going on with the main plot.
It's also why I think people hate the later seasons as it boils it all down to dumb levels and skips the gritty.

LOTR is all fantasy from the get go. Wizards, hobbits and elves from the very start and throughout.
I think if they go down the GOT story telling structure, it's going to stand out like a sore thumb. Not only that. People will directly compare the two now that house of the Dragon is out.
Let's face it. They would be right to do so.

The difference being that GOT has already created it's structure and this LOTR will just feel like an imitation.
As much as I believe it's going to be shit. I would like a good fantasy adventure.

But then again, maybe i'm completely wrong.

 

[lifa-cobex]

Who cares what the story is, they don't need to market that in the marketing. It's LOTR, a well know IP and anyone/everyone that is aware of that IP would decide whether they'd watch it based on that fact. For anyone that doesn't know LOTR, they'll still know it's fantasy based and watch it or not watch it based on that fact.

You'll learn the story as it airs and like it or dislike it as it progresses. The less known the better to be honest, I'm excited that I know absolutely nothing about the story.

And let's be honest, there is already a segment of people in here who are convinced this show is a big steaming pile of shit without having even seen a single second of the actual show. The only reason you want to know more about the story is so you have more fuel for your fabricated shit flinging.

TBF the advertisement and marketing has put "it's going to be shit" in peoples heads.
Coming off the coat tails of Peter Jackson with really nice simple but epic trailers back in the day.
Now we've 20 somethings being the representatives of Tolkin Lore on weird talk show things. It reeks of hipster.
It puts the image of who they are trying to sell the show to in my mind. It's not a group of people that I generally like.
Especially coming from what the films originally catered to, Geeks like myself.

That trailer looked nice but the music was generic as fuck. Again i think that's trying to pull in a crowd that's alien from myself.
It also gave nothing towards the story. Just member berry's.

I genuinely want it to be good.
But the marketing has turned me away every time.



This trailer tells me vastly more than any of the advertisement has done for ROP

 

[Oberstein]

It might be time to do a thread now...

It's already this Thursday/Friday.

 

[FunkMiller]

That trailer looked nice but the music was generic as fuck. Again i think that's trying to pull in a crowd that's alien from myself.
It also gave nothing towards the story. Just member berry's.

I genuinely want it to be good.
But the marketing has turned me away every time.



This trailer tells me vastly more than any of the advertisement has done for ROP

The simple fact of the matter is that there are really only two stories worth telling in Tolkien’s universe:

The fall of Morgoth.
The fall of Sauron.

Because those are the actual villains.

Everything else is pretty much back story and filler. That’ll sound like heresy to the Tolkien purists, but it’s true. And this show is probably going to bear that out.

 

[IDKFA]

The simple fact of the matter is that there are really only two stories worth telling in Tolkien’s universe:

The fall of Morgoth.
The fall of Sauron.

Because those are the actual villains.

Everything else is pretty much back story and filler. That’ll sound like heresy to the Tolkien purists, but it’s true. And this show is probably going to bear that out.

Nah. Hard disagree. The Children of Húrin would be a fantastic dark and epic mini series.

 

[lifa-cobex]

The simple fact of the matter is that there are really only two stories worth telling in Tolkien’s universe:

The fall of Morgoth.
The fall of Sauron.

Because those are the actual villains.

Everything else is pretty much back story and filler. That’ll sound like heresy to the Tolkien purists, but it’s true. And this show is probably going to bear that out.

Pretty much.

If I had to take a guess about the story for this. I'm gonna say it's around the fall of the Dunedain people (however you spell it).
But that's really only a foot note around Sauron. Theirs nothing really to tell. There probably going to create their own story and anger everyone.

 

[Kimahri]

The simple fact of the matter is that there are really only two stories worth telling in Tolkien’s universe:

The fall of Morgoth.
The fall of Sauron.

Because those are the actual villains.

Everything else is pretty much back story and filler. That’ll sound like heresy to the Tolkien purists, but it’s true. And this show is probably going to bear that out.

There are plenty of interesting stories that can be told in this world. Everything doesn't need a clear cut villain. The story of the Rohirrim and/or Gondor alone could be seasons long on their own. Thing is, there are so many things in Tolkien's work that easily could be expanded on without breaking the lore.

 

[Goalus]

There are plenty of interesting stories that can be told in this world. Everything doesn't need a clear cut villain. The story of the Rohirrim and/or Gondor alone could be seasons long on their own. Thing is, there are so many things in Tolkien's work that easily could be expanded on without breaking the lore.

Agreed, but only if the writers inject additional diversity and representation so that everyone watching can relate to the plot and characters.

For example, I could see Eowyn teaching Grima Wormtongue a lesson on why mansplaining is bad and should be condemned. This could be a recurring theme as she interacts with different men throughout the season who attempt to explain her own area of expertise to her.

 

[lifa-cobex]

Nah. Hard disagree. The Children of Húrin would be a fantastic dark and epic mini series.

There are plenty of interesting stories that can be told in this world. Everything doesn't need a clear cut villain. The story of the Rohirrim and/or Gondor alone could be seasons long on their own. Thing is, there are so many things in Tolkien's work that easily could be expanded on without breaking the lore.

Their are plenty of small stories you could go with. Someone with a passion in the lore could make them.
But I doubt that's what Amazon is going for. They want the epic tail that rival the films.

 

[Nobody_Important]

The simple fact of the matter is that there are really only two stories worth telling in Tolkien’s universe:

The fall of Morgoth.
The fall of Sauron.

Because those are the actual villains.

Everything else is pretty much back story and filler. That’ll sound like heresy to the Tolkien purists, but it’s true. And this show is probably going to bear that out.

You don't need a tangible main villain to tell a good story. That doesn't apply just to the LOTR universe but to literally any form of media in existence.


Does it help? Of course it does, but its not a requirement.

 

[Smokken]

After watching interviews with the cast and crew, I knew this was gonna be another woke shitshow. All they talk about is diversity, reflecting modern day society with the race swapping crap.
The amount of times "first black dwarf/elf" was mentioned is cringeworthy.
Only gonna watch it because of great CGI and cinematography, nothing else. Will download it via torrents, not paying to watch this crap.
Whoever picked out the song in the trailer should be fired, holy crap.

 

[FunkMiller]

Their are plenty of small stories you could go with. Someone with a passion in the lore could make them.
But I doubt that's what Amazon is going for. They want the epic tail that rival the films.

And that's my point. Yes, there are lots of great smaller stories in Tolkien's appendices... but none of them can be spun into satisfying, large scale fantasy series like the Lord Of The Rings. Even Tolkien knew this, because the story he knew was the one to tell was LotR... not the background behind it.

I think this series is going to be very unfocused, and full of stuff that Tolkien neither wrote, nor intended. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

 

[FunkMiller]

You don't need a tangible main villain to tell a good story. That doesn't apply just to the LOTR universe but to literally any form of media in existence.


Does it help? Of course it does, but its not a requirement.

I'd argue in any fantasy epic of this nature, a suitable antagonist is always required. Yes, I'm sure you can tell an effective small scale drama about the relationship between the elves and man, or a fascinating kitchen sink drama about hobbit politics... but if you're going to write a fantasy novel/tv show/ movie, you need a well fleshed out antagonist(s).

 

[Oberstein]

They can also start with a big, epic, billion-dollar story and then do smaller, focused dramas.

They're not going to stop with the license after 5 seasons.

 

[Nobody_Important]

I'd argue in any fantasy epic of this nature, a suitable antagonist is always required. Yes, I'm sure you can tell an effective small scale drama about the relationship between the elves and man, or a fascinating kitchen sink drama about hobbit politics... but if you're going to write a fantasy novel/tv show/ movie, you need a well fleshed out antagonist(s).

Agree to disagree.

 

[Kimahri]

I'd argue in any fantasy epic of this nature, a suitable antagonist is always required. Yes, I'm sure you can tell an effective small scale drama about the relationship between the elves and man, or a fascinating kitchen sink drama about hobbit politics... but if you're going to write a fantasy novel/tv show/ movie, you need a well fleshed out antagonist(s).

I find your view on this very limited. I've read plenty of fantasy without an obvious big bad. Some of the best stories lie in the grey zones.

 

[FunkMiller]

I find your view on this very limited. I've read plenty of fantasy without an obvious big bad. Some of the best stories lie in the grey zones.

Such as? And I'm talking large scale of the type Amazon are trying to make with this TV series.

 

[Azurro]

Who cares what the story is, they don't need to market that in the marketing. It's LOTR, a well know IP and anyone/everyone that is aware of that IP would decide whether they'd watch it based on that fact. For anyone that doesn't know LOTR, they'll still know it's fantasy based and watch it or not watch it based on that fact.

You'll learn the story as it airs and like it or dislike it as it progresses. The less known the better to be honest, I'm excited that I know absolutely nothing about the story.

And let's be honest, there is already a segment of people in here who are convinced this show is a big steaming pile of shit without having even seen a single second of the actual show. The only reason you want to know more about the story is so you have more fuel for your fabricated shit flinging.

This guy right here is the audience of this mess. Of course it's going to be bad, but as long as represhentashion is part of the creation of the show/movie, guys like the one right here say they will be there.

Activist watchers sadly are either a tiny minority, are broke af or don't bother to actually watch it, so that's why they usually fail. But hey, stunning and brave angry GINO and strong black woman dwarf will be iconic moments to be remember for eternity.

 

[jason10mm]

You don't need a tangible main villain to tell a good story. That doesn't apply just to the LOTR universe but to literally any form of media in existence.


Does it help? Of course it does, but its not a requirement.

No, I think he is correct. In a moral world, such as Middle-Earth, with a DISTINCT divide between good and evil, any story will need a villain for proper conflict. And if the audience knows Sauron or Morgoth are out there, anyone else is just a scrub. If you DONT use a villain, then you have a "the real evil is within ourselves" story about racism, greed, or whatever, a theme folks probably don't turn to Middle-Earth for. Those themes can certainly be present, just look at the distrust between dwarves and elves, but they are a side dish to the main course of "good guys versus bad".

 

[Nobody_Important]

No, I think he is correct. In a moral world, such as Middle-Earth, with a DISTINCT divide between good and evil, any story will need a villain for proper conflict. And if the audience knows Sauron or Morgoth are out there, anyone else is just a scrub. If you DONT use a villain, then you have a "the real evil is within ourselves" story about racism, greed, or whatever, a theme folks probably don't turn to Middle-Earth for. Those themes can certainly be present, just look at the distrust between dwarves and elves, but they are a side dish to the main course of "good guys versus bad".

Like I said. Agree to disagree.


I think you could easily tell a story worth telling in the LOTR setting without there being some cliché overarching "Main Villain".

 

[jason10mm]

I find your view on this very limited. I've read plenty of fantasy without an obvious big bad. Some of the best stories lie in the grey zones.

I've read oceans of epic fantasy and find very few that don't have the classic LOTR framework in there somewhere, even if only to deliberately subvert it. Even ASOIAF has it with the White Walkers.

 

[jason10mm]

Like I said. Agree to disagree.


I think you could easily tell a story worth telling in the LOTR setting without there being some cliché overarching "Main Villain".

That's because I get the sense you do not have much care for morality plays that utilize the classical virtues. Different audience.

 

[FunkMiller]

I think you could easily tell a story worth telling in the LOTR setting without there being some cliché overarching "Main Villain".

I 100% agree.

But an epic fantasy story that can be told, and be sustained, across multiple novels, movies or seasons of TV? Nope. Tolkien knew this (and arguably more importantly, so did Stanley Unwin). That's why he wrote the stories he did.

 

[Hari Seldon]

The simple fact of the matter is that there are really only two stories worth telling in Tolkien’s universe:

The fall of Morgoth.
The fall of Sauron.

Because those are the actual villains.

Everything else is pretty much back story and filler. That’ll sound like heresy to the Tolkien purists, but it’s true. And this show is probably going to bear that out.

Lol The Hobbit sold a lot of copies without either one of those guys in it.

 

[Kimahri]

Such as? And I'm talking large scale of the type Amazon are trying to make with this TV series.

Take your pick. You can pretty much just flip through the appendices and point your finger on something that could be turned into a good story. Warring countries, Gondor vs the southerners, anything goes really.

I'm not saying they should, I'm saying they could, and with good writers, anything is possible. I have no problem with classic good vs evil (DnD walking away from evil orcs and drow is bullshit), but I have no problem with the other side of it either. In any case, in Tolkien's work, the looming evil is always a presence anyways. There are 1000s of years of material to pick from. just look at what Amazon are doing. condencing centuries into decades. Celebrimborn and Tar-Miriel are both in it, but Tar-Miriel was born 1500 years after Celebrimbors death.

The best parts of Game of Thrones were just people going against each other, the weakest part of the whole thing was the big bad white walkers. Hated that dumb shit, lol.

 

[FunkMiller]

Take your pick. You can pretty much just flip through the appendices and point your finger on something that could be turned into a good story. Warring countries, Gondor vs the southerners, anything goes really.

I'm not saying they should, I'm saying they could, and with good writers, anything is possible. I have no problem with classic good vs evil (DnD walking away from evil orcs and drow is bullshit), but I have no problem with the other side of it either. In any case, in Tolkien's work, the looming evil is always a presence anyways. There are 1000s of years of material to pick from. just look at what Amazon are doing. condencing centuries into decades. Celebrimborn and Tar-Miriel are both in it, but Tar-Miriel was born 1500 years after Celebrimbors death.

The best parts of Game of Thrones were just people going against each other, the weakest part of the whole thing was the big bad white walkers. Hated that dumb shit, lol.

Hang on… you said you’ve read plenty of fantasy without an obvious big bad. I asked you for examples. Why are you talking about the appendices to Lord Of The Rings? Do you have any examples of epic fantasy of this type that don’t feature a main antagonist?

And you might not like The White Walkers, but they are the main, driving antagonistic force in ASOIAF.

 

[FunkMiller]

Lol The Hobbit sold a lot of copies without either one of those guys in it.

Well, Sauron is in The Hobbit, although referred to as the necromancer. And the vast majority of the hobbit’s sales came after the release of Lord Of The Rings, when Tolkien revised the text to bring it line with the larger story (Tolkien actually bemoaned its lack of sales when it first came out to Arthur Ransome). And the one ring is in the hobbit, which Sauron created.

And the hobbit still proves my point about fantasy requiring a decent antagonist anyway. In this case, Smaug.

 

[AJUMP23]

Why not tell the Rise of Smaug, or the fall of Durin, or lets figure out what the Blue Wizards (valnor) were up to and why they didn't do their jobs.

 

[Kimahri]

Well, Sauron is in The Hobbit, although referred to as the necromancer. And the vast majority of the hobbit’s sales came after the release of Lord Of The Rings, when Tolkien revised the text to bring it line with the larger story (Tolkien actually bemoaned its lack of sales when it first came out to Arthur Ransome). And the one ring is in the hobbit, which Sauron created.

And the hobbit still proves my point about fantasy requiring a decent antagonist anyway. In this case, Smaug.

Smaug isn't the antagonist. He's an encounter. Try again.

The Hobbit is a perfect example, really.

Edit: was there an antagonist in kingkiller chronicles? Can't remember.