Well yeah, it's hard to use Windows 10 on a PS4.
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Tim Sweeney:MS wants to monopolise games development on PCand we must fight it
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
Well yeah, it's hard to use Windows 10 on a PS4.
You can move programs between drives in Settings > System > Apps & features. You just can't choose the location when you install it.
mitchman
Gold Member
MS is in, by definition outlined in EU and US law, a monopoly situation on computers so they can not do what they want. In particular, middleware they deliver on their OS must be replaceable by external software companies and they must not add any private APIs or other restrictions to stop competitors replacing their middleware. All this is well known from previous anti-trust sentences against Microsoft, and how they abused their OS monopoly to force Netscape out of the market, among other things.
That and forcing OEMs to not bundle Netscape or they would lose their Windows OS license.
Why wait so long? If he was this upset, why not release the article months and months ago and gain some traction? If MS is this bad, why not show people earlier.
Gemüsepizza
Member
What an insane statement. The whole situation right now is so absurd right now. Microsoft wants to release their own games via their own app store. They don't want to give 30% of their profit away to other companies like Valve. How is this controversial in any way? But suddenly people are making these weird conspiracy theories up, about how this is a step of Microsoft to "monopolise" game development? What the hell? Where is the connection between these two things? How does Microsoft's own store, and their plans to sell their games in their own store, have anything to do with the ability of other companies to develop and sell games for Windows now and in the future? Do people really think Microsoft will someday prevent Valve, EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard and others to sell their games in their own app stores for Windows? Sorry guys, but this is insane conspiracy drivel. Nothing more.
Edit: And the problems and quirks of the Windows Store right now exist mainly because this store was never meant to distribute AAA Windows games. It will get fixed. Do people really think Microsoft does not want people to have G-Sync/Freesync and similar features? Why????? It makes no sense.
Edit: And the problems and quirks of the Windows Store right now exist mainly because this store was never meant to distribute AAA Windows games. It will get fixed. Do people really think Microsoft does not want people to have G-Sync/Freesync and similar features? Why????? It makes no sense.
Diablo 3, WoW, Crossfire, Lineage, Dunegon Fighter Online, Starcraft 2, World of Tanks, Mapplestory. All of those make more than any game on Steam including Dota 2 (except SC2).
http://theitbros.com/how-to-move-ap...sd-card-and-change-default-app-save-location/
You can move individual apps to other drives, as long as the app allows it.
Unless it's something along the lines of locking out hardware I can't really see what the problem is.
if they are things the developers want access to which provide a more streamline process for end users ( Games hooking into your XBL profile, embedded security etc ) but don't want to use their store then I don't understand the argument.
If it is in fact locking out hardware, performance enhancements ( for instance if they locked DX12 to the store ) then I could see the argument for it
Because now Microsoft is outlining their platform to both developers and the public. And other devs have been voicing their opinions about this for a long time. If it's just reaching you, it's because he timed his deployment of these criticisms correctly.
GHG
Member
Yep. I said exactly as much in another topic regarding this issue with the Windows store.
It's sad that Microsoft keep trying this shit.
Ahh, just jumping on the hate wagon at the appropriate moment. Tactical Sweeney, tactical.
Monopoly situations change. PCs hardly have a monopoly over gaming or computing any more.
Last I heard more Android devices were sold than PCs, and lots of people don't even bother owning a PC any more.
justsomeguy
Member
Wonder how this thread would have gone if Ekim had gone with "Microsoft: Universal Apps can be used by any store front" as a title.
edit: I see, response added after the OP was made.
edit: I see, response added after the OP was made.
Dinky Dino
Member
This is why vulkan needs to win this time around. MS is going at it hard with that dx12 ad and these games but ever since I saw the 10 store limitations, it made me uneasy.
Theanine3D
Member
Epic and MS are longtime business partners. You can't expect Tim to go out on the attack right off the bat, he had to try negotiating over the matter first, which he did. There was still a chance MS would have listened and dialed back on this silly UWP business, just like they did with the Xbox One DRM.
That Tim wrote this now is a sign that he already exhausted all of those efforts.
Microsoft still hasn't tried it to put it there...
Fair enough, that makes sense.
But DX12 is not exclusive to the store so I am not sure where this argument works.
dragonelite
Member
Don't think the game industry has a enough power of influence vs enterprise and mobile sector. I will see what the future brings after a couple of uwp iterations. Im a bit biased as a .net developer.
If they really close off windows, i have no problem jumping to linux desktop.
But right now linux desktop is just too much of a hassle to commit and im afraid
i will jump way to deep into the endless configuration options rabbithole.
Vincent Grayson
Member
A wild George Broussard appears:
What a weird feeling it is to agree with him.
Basically everything linked to MS has to be some evil move towards global saturation and must be stopped. I was under the impression that DX12 was pretty damn good and worth supporting?
Gemüsepizza
Member
But how does this affect him? This makes no sense. Microsoft games use UWP. His games don't have to use UWP. They will never have to use UWP. He can make games any way he wants to make them, and he can sell them anywhere he wants to sell them.
Dinky Dino
Member
Because windows 10 in general now feels like a real attempt to lock people in and if more games use dx12 that is where people will have to go. I was willing to overlook the fact that you can't turn off updates or their monitoring completely but this makes it evident we need options and to be frank I just don't trust MS.
I don't think the Xbox hardware will be dropped. It's an easy way into a lot more homes when people don't want PC. I think it will just be a base model, no windows, just an xbox.
I can see everything else happening though
I've gradually come around to the view that a proprietary OS on an open platform is a fundamentally bad idea for everyone except the owner of the OS. Windows activation, in which Windows might object if you change your hardware was a major consumer-facing warning shot. Software developers also dealt with Microsoft giving itself unfair advantages which resulted in the famous antitrust case.
I put Linux on my own computers years ago (around Vista release) and I'm glad I made the leap back then despite having to learn a new system. Some people still think Linux is inadequate but I think alternatives are great and I exercised my right to use one. While I'm not against proprietary software, I think the OS is too critical a component to belong to a particular for-profit company as that will compromise the openness of the whole platform.
dragonelite
Member
Exactly, it will also keep those big enterprise organisations
from jumping over to windows 10.
Bigmac1910
Member
Well, I guess it's time to give Linux/SteamOS a chance soon. I still use software and play games that are exclusive to windows, but this could change in the next couple of years if MS keeps forcing this.
justsomeguy
Member
Hmm... can you access all the Xbox Live integration without going through the store? (I don't know - not a games dev).
Yes. SteamOS is the solution to monopoly.......
justsomeguy
Member
What do you mean by "open UWP up to everyone"?
Anyone can build a UWP right now by downloading a free edition of Visual Studio. You can compile it. You can distribute it via your website*. No need to give Microsoft a penny and no need to use the store.
* "Dev Sideloading" needs to be enabled. Something trivial (I assume) to automate in a 3rd party storefront such as Steam.
Xbox Live is not a Windows OS feature.
There is this OS feature called a TCP/IP networking stack that you can use to integrate with whatever gaming network you want. Steam does a pretty good job, no?
Bigmac1910
Member
Afaik I can use other games on it sold from GOG etc. it is Linux after all, but I would probably try Ubuntu first.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Right now, what they want is to not give away a 30% cut off their own games. Which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Ha thanks didn't know about that. Still it could be nice if they expand it to folder selection and being able to choose the default location when downloads(without having to go to settings to change it first).
Even after reading that article, I'm still very confused at where some are coming from. People have been completely okay with steam monopolising the pc market for years, but now Microsoft have chosen to open a store on their own operating system, and sell their own games people start being hyperbolic. If people have a problem with windows (which is currently free at the moment) and how Microsoft plan on making their money back (no different from apple and Google) then there are other operating systems they could be using
Many of Windows 10's Memory Manager Compressed Memory page file commands are limited to UWP.
In fact, this is touted specifically as a feature of UWP.
Bitch Pudding
Member
18 month, so this was basically decided around the time they did the 180, right?
Gemüsepizza;197556927 said:
Of course they're not going to stop other companies from releasing .win32 in their own app store.
They might however try to slowly move the standard from .win32 to UWP which would allow Microsoft to be in a similar sits to Android and Google Apps.
The fact that this article is coming from someone with close ties to Microsoft, who discussed about this subject directly with Microsoft for a year and half, should be a good indication that this is not a conspiracy drivel.
It's clearly implied at the end that he and others have been voicing concerns for a long time, particularly to Phil Spenser, and while he has been listening, the end result hasn't been change and that MS's actions are speaking for themselves.
That would be ~36 months.
TheHellsLord
Member
Gemüsepizza;197557143 said:
UWP is the API set that Microsoft sees as the future. The assumption is that Win32 might be relegated to legacy support while new developments and features are UWP only. To a certain degree that also makes technical sense as Win32 contains a lot of garbage that has been piling up over the last 20 years.
However that is not the situation today and with easy access to UWP sideloading would most likely mean that alternative stores can still exist even if a switch to UWP occurs.
toddhunter
Member
Gemüsepizza;197556927 said:
You are wrong about the 30%. Microsoft do not have to do that.
You also seem to miss completely the restrictions microsoft have put on their store and the obvious direction they are heading in to enforce this model in windows.
It is ok to keep your head in the sand if you like, but other people have real concerns as raised in the article.
TBiddy
Member
I think there's a lot of "I don't understand this, but Sweeney says so, so it must be right" in this thread. Or appeal to authority, if you wish.
There's also a lot of hyperbole "Microsoft wants to kill PC gaming", "MS are evil" and what have we. What it really boils down to is, that Microsoft has created a new format, that everyone can use if they wish. They have also created a new shop, in which they want to promote said format. That's it. You aren't forced to use it. You can sideload apps written in UWP, or you can use the shop, whichever you want to.
Apparantly Sweeney thinks that in the near future, Microsoft will kill off/deprecate Win32 support, and along with it kill off Steam, Origin, Uplay etc. In the instant that happens, hundreds of millions of gamers and professionals will never give a dime to Microsoft again.
In which world is that a realistic scenario? You do realize, that the most widely used graphics software (Adobes CC software) and Autodesk doesn't run on UWP and probably won't for a very long time, if ever, right? You do also realize, that 99% of all existing games for PC are based on Win32, right?
This is fear-mongering, just like when Gabe Newell opened up about Windows 8. His predictions didn't come true, and neither will Sweeneys.
There's also a lot of hyperbole "Microsoft wants to kill PC gaming", "MS are evil" and what have we. What it really boils down to is, that Microsoft has created a new format, that everyone can use if they wish. They have also created a new shop, in which they want to promote said format. That's it. You aren't forced to use it. You can sideload apps written in UWP, or you can use the shop, whichever you want to.
Apparantly Sweeney thinks that in the near future, Microsoft will kill off/deprecate Win32 support, and along with it kill off Steam, Origin, Uplay etc. In the instant that happens, hundreds of millions of gamers and professionals will never give a dime to Microsoft again.
In which world is that a realistic scenario? You do realize, that the most widely used graphics software (Adobes CC software) and Autodesk doesn't run on UWP and probably won't for a very long time, if ever, right? You do also realize, that 99% of all existing games for PC are based on Win32, right?
This is fear-mongering, just like when Gabe Newell opened up about Windows 8. His predictions didn't come true, and neither will Sweeneys.
justsomeguy
Member
Thanks for the patronising wording, I am fully aware of how to write networking code but thanks for the tip.
The point I was making is, are the Xbox Live APIs restricted only to those apps that going to ship through the store, which is what people are worrying about.
Or could I write an Xbox Live integrated app and ship it on steam?
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