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[Sho_Nuff82]

The "China men" hanging out at the back of the float.
But yeah, not racist. That's what Chinese people look like.




Not even the same thing. The outrage a few months back (on this board too) when that Japanese MP said Obama was fortunate he was from slaves is.

Outrage and demanding someone be dragged to court are two entirely different things. Freedom of speech expressly protects you from the latter, and is one of the most important foundations of Western society.

Allowing the trial to take place at all to placate Erdogan is a farce.

 

[Lead]

"freedom" of speech in Europe is weird

Please don't lump all of Europe in with these bunch of weaklings bending over to a tyrant.

This would never have happened in Denmark, we would have told him to fuck off long before ever entertaining the idea of listening to this guy.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What the fuck, Merkel

I'll translate as much of it as possible/

He starts with: 'a german journalist has said some things about me I'd like to nuance.'

then the part of the poem where it is about his penis smelling like kebab.

"I hear this critism a lot. But be honest, who hasn't felt any temptation when seeing a tasty, hot durum. Look at it yourself, so hot and dripping with sauce. Can you say no? Horny as hell!" *audience claps*

"And yes, it smells like pigs arse sometimes." *silence* "Horny as hell!"

*part about him hitting women*

"Honestly. I've never hit a woman ever! At home it is always the other way around!" *footage of a woman smacking a guys arse* "by the way, the mask isn't made of rubber, but of polyester! Small nuance"

*part about the goat fucking*

"I swear, I have never fucked a goat ever! That was the other way around too!"

*part in the poem were it sais he has fellatio with a hundred sheep*

"That's a lie! I am a faithfull man! I would never cheat on my goat!"

*part in the poem about the small dick*

"I admit. It's nothing to brag about."

*audience gives standing ovation.*

Hahaha that is amazing. The "I would never cheat on my goat" lined slayed me.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

I'm sorry, but you'll have to help me out here: I thought the comedian was making fun of the abuses of said dictator, not of Merkel making it possible for him to ... do what? Commit the abuses? She wasn't the one who voted for him. What are you trying to say exactly? Sure, her refugee policy deserves a lot of criticism, but what exactly is your specific grievance with the refugee pact that was agreed upon (not that there aren't any, I can see Doctors Without Borders is making a stink about it)? It seems too early to make a big judgement call on it. Let's see whether everybody keeps their promises and whether that upper limit will hold.

Lots of people disagree with the pact because Merkel is bartering people with someone who is known for his questionable human rights records, all while lining his pockets with EU tax money and bowing down to him. This is precisely why Erdogan got into the focus of German satirists to begin with.

 

[Fritz]

No, you're factually wrong. The way this law is designed explicitly undermines separation of powers. The government decides what to bring to court.

"Factually", come on! It's a pretty straight forward statutory offense. It's antiquated but it is there. The prerequisite is in 104a and is simply applicable to all offenses against foreign states. It is stupid, alright. If she had used it to suppress litigation though, that would have been a decision against the separation of powers.

 

[Salty Rice]

Never would have thought Merkel is doing this.

The age of Merkel is officially over.

She was one of the most beloved chancellor ever but gonna go as maybe the most hated for all her decisions she did recently.

 

[Shiggy]

"Factually", come on! It's a pretty straight forward statutory offense. It's antiquated but it is there. The prerequisite is in 104a and is simply applicable to all offenses against foreign states. It is stupid, alright. If she had used it to suppress litigation though, that would have been a decision against the separation of powers.

Not really, as Erdogan could sue Böhmermann anyway, which was also pointed out by the SPD ministers. Merkel seemingly preferred taking this route to not put the refugee deal into danger, instead of doing what one would expect from a governor: protect the interests of its own people. But who's still surprised by that after last year?

 

[Piecake]

Wait, so Germany caved and is actually prosecuting the comedian?

Holy fuck. I honestly stopped paying attention to this thread and story because I thought it was just some ludicrous and humorous act by Turkey. I never would have imagined that Germany would cave...

This topic really needs a title change to reflect the new info

 

[YoungFa]

Not really, as Erdogan could sue Böhmermann anyway, which was also pointed out by the SPD ministers. Merkel seemingly preferred taking this route to not put the refugee deal into danger, instead of doing what one would expect from a governor: protect the interests of its own people. But who's still surprised by that after last year?

So working on a solution for the refugee crisis is not im the interest of the german people?

 

[daydream]

the overreactions are hilarious

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

the overreactions are hilarious

There would literally be riots in the streets if an American was taken to court for even a single day for verbally insulting a head of state on American soil. Especially if Obama/Hillary endorsed it to support relations with a majority Muslim nation.

 

[daydream]

There would literally be riots in the streets if an American was taken to court for even a single day for verbally insulting a head of state on American soil. Especially if Obama/Hillary endorsed it to support relations with a majority Muslim nation.

what was she to do with the old paragraph in place?

this way she's appeasing erdogan, the case won't make it past investigation status and §103 is getting axed

 

[Dennis]

Merkel is a gigantic fuck up. Just embarrassing. And she is hurting all of Europe.

 

[Fritz]

I still think it's ingenious. That Fucker Erdogan can see how far he comes with his antics in a proper jurisdiction. It would be glorious to have him sit in the court room with judges who don't give a single fuck who he is. Albeit it will probably not get that far.

 

[Fritz]

Not really, as Erdogan could sue Böhmermann anyway, which was also pointed out by the SPD ministers. Merkel seemingly preferred taking this route to not put the refugee deal into danger, instead of doing what one would expect from a governor: protect the interests of its own people. But who's still surprised by that after last year?

Sorry, but that is bullshit in my opinion. Erdogan has plenty of ways to sue, file charges etc. But Merkel (or more so the governemnt) was asked by Turkey - and thus had to make a decision - about this very paragraph.

Her decision was unpopular but it is ultimately right, I firmly believe this also after sleeping a night over it. It is the ultimate display of sovereignty and shows a deep trust in the system. The implications had she voted against the prosecution would have been way worse. In the end this will be Erdogans disgrace. Everybody here needs a bit more trust in the German judicial system. Just imagine the whole thing gets abandoned because of insignificance for example

 

[BrassDragon]

Sorry, but that is bullshit in my opinion. Erdogan has plenty of ways to sue, file charges etc. But Merkel (or more so the governemnt) was asked by Turkey - and thus had to make a decision - about this very paragraph.

Her decision was unpopular but it is ultimately right, I firmly believe this also after sleeping a night over it. It is the ultimate display of sovereignty and shows a deep trust in the system. The implications had she voted against the prosecution would have been way worse. In the end this will be Erdogans disgrace. Everybody here needs a bit more trust in the German judicial system. Just imagine the whole thing gets abandoned because of insignificance for example

Personal feelings aside, you believe this will be a net loss for Erdoğan? Really?

He just made a head of state bow to his egoistical demands, you think that win will be undone by a random judge dismissing the case? No one will care by then, certainly not in Turkey.

I can't share your optimism that Merkel's stance will ultimately prove right and just, no matter the outcome of the court case.

The message being sent right now is crystal clear: she bowed to the pettiness of a tyrant and deferred moral responsibility to 'the system', an entertainer has been silenced and Germans have been put on notice to watch what they say about a corrupt regime because their own government will not stand up for them.

 

[Frankfurter]

I still think it's ingenious. That Fucker Erdogan can see how far he comes with his antics in a proper jurisdiction. It would be glorious to have him sit in the court room with judges who don't give a single fuck who he is. Albeit it will probably not get that far.

It could end up being pretty funny indeed. Both Erdogans lawyer and ZDF have said that they are willing to go through all levels of jurisdiction.

The message being sent right now is crystal clear: she bowed to the pettiness of a tyrant and deferred moral responsibility to 'the system', an entertainer has been silenced and Germans have been put on notice to watch what they say about a corrupt regime because their own government will not stand up for them.

Um, no? He's a free man and can do whatever he wants. Being sued for whatever doesn't change that.

 

[Fritz]

Personal feelings aside, you believe this will be a net loss for Erdoğan? Really?

He just made a head of state bow to his egoistical demands, you think that win will be undone by a random judge dismissing the case? No one will care by then, certainly not in Turkey.

I can't share your optimism that Merkel's stance will ultimately prove right and just, no matter the outcome of the court case.

The message being sent right now is crystal clear: she bowed to the pettiness of a tyrant and deferred moral responsibility to 'the system', an entertainer has been silenced and Germans have been put on notice to watch what they say about a corrupt regime because their own government will not stand up for them.

How do you define bow? I don't think she bowed, quite the opposite. Did you watch her statement?

Also obviously the message is not crystal clear. Just look at the discussion in here.

And when has Böhmermann been silenced? Even the clip has been put back on the net by the station. He get's tremendous support from the media. And we don't know yet what kinda support he will get from the government. but should they support him anyway? I don't think so. Everybody makes him up like this poor victim, which he is not. he's a smart guy and an entertainer with TV and radio shows. Don't you see the net win for him?

Why does he need support from the government? Does he even want it? I'd guess no. But also why do you think they denied their support by not not suppressing jurisdiction take course. It's not like they handed him over to Turkey or something.

Also don't speak for "the Germans". In general media is supporting Merkels decision. And at least my facebook feed is full of people supporting the decision. People are smarter than you think probably.

 

[Osahi]

What the fuck, Merkel


Hahaha that is amazing. The "I would never cheat on my goat" lined slayed me.

They released a new one were Erdogan and Merkel call each other. Merkel isn't pleased about how Turkey holds their end of the bargain in the refugee deal. Erdogan agrees, he fucked Europe. Merkel doesn't want to state it that hard. So they start negotiating about how hard Turkey has fucked Europe. In the ass, with or without lube, etc.

In the mean time, Bart De Wever, right wing darling of Belgium has asked us to share the poem to make a statement. He is the guy who has tried to sue newspapers, autors and more because he didn't like what they wrote and his party constantly attacks the public broadcasting news becayse they don't like the way they report.

The hypocracy should baffle me, but it's De Wever so I am not suprised

 

[God Dayumm]

"freedom" of speech in Europe is weird

Only in the Americas it is an unalienable right. Europe is stuck in the feudal age.

You can be, but the prosecution along with the court can decide not to go through with it if there is no public interest about that case.

Like in 99% of the cases, so usually nothing happens.

Let me guess. The 1% of the cases that go through were about a politician being insulted.

 

[cyba89]

Statement from Böhmermann. He will take a break from TV for now. Sad but understandable.

https://twitter.com/neomagazin/status/721303047234850816

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Um, no? He's a free man and can do whatever he wants. Being sued for whatever doesn't change that.

He can move his mouth and make any sound he wants. True freedom right there.

 

[Kinyou]

I still think it's ingenious. That Fucker Erdogan can see how far he comes with his antics in a proper jurisdiction. It would be glorious to have him sit in the court room with judges who don't give a single fuck who he is. Albeit it will probably not get that far.

Wouldn't Merkel denying the charge send a much clearer fuck you to Erdogan? It's sad that we even have to take him and his antics serious.

Merkel clearly comes off as weak to me here.

 

[entremet]

Wow. Merkel is a POS.

 

[Fritz]

Wouldn't Merkel denying the charge send a much clearer fuck you to Erdogan? It's sad that we even have to take him and his antics serious.

Merkel clearly comes off as weak to me here.

Yes, if we were all cave men. maybe it's because I studied law but taking everything into account it is the right and the most intelligent decision, imho.


On another level it has everything to do with a cultivated society and delayed gratification against macho power play.

 

[Drencrom]

Yes, if we were all cave men. maybe it's because I studied law but taking everything into account it is the right and the most intelligent decision, imho.


On another level it has everything to do with a cultivated society and delayed gratification against macho power play.

In this case I rather have a "cave man" leader that stands for freedom of speech that doesn't let delusional fascist leaders bully a civilian over some nonsense sketch.

The fact that you think it's okay to put Boehmermann through this shit just so that maybe Erdogan will feel inadequate in court is so dumb I don't even know what to say.

Merkel calling out Erdogan on his infantile antics would be much better than this really. Anything else is just a waste of time and resources. There is nothing intelligent about this, it's cowardice and everyone loses when you publicly entertain the delusions of a madman.

 

[Mendrox]

Statement from Böhmermann. He will take a break from TV for now. Sad but understandable.

https://twitter.com/neomagazin/status/721303047234850816

Wow makes me really angry. Really liked that he got bigger and bigger and also did some things with Rocketbeans.tv together. But understandable of course...

 

[Kölsch Bloot]

Right decision!

Separation of Powers anyone?

I'd be pretty shocked if he's gonna be punished though

 

[cyba89]

ZDF says the break will be 4 weeks (until 12th May) for now.
But I wouldn't be surprised if this gets extended til after the summer break.

 

[Condom]

Only in the Americas it is an unalienable right. Europe is stuck in the feudal age.

It's normal for a society to regulate speech on a certain level. If that is through laws or social control or whatever. Calling having regulation on that being stuck in the 'feudal age' is quite ignorant. Nobody wants to have to constantly argue with people what is acceptable to say and what is not.

That said I think having a law to protect high standing politicians is not the right way to do things.

 

[Frankfurter]

Statement from Böhmermann. He will take a break from TV for now. Sad but understandable.

https://twitter.com/neomagazin/status/721303047234850816

ZDF tweeted that it's just a break till May 12th.

 

[Fritz]

In this case I rather have a "cave man" leader that stands for freedom of speech that doesn't let delusional fascist leaders bully a civilian over some nonsense sketch.

The fact that you think it's okay to put Boehmermann through this shit just so that maybe Erdogan will feel inadequate in court is so dumb I don't even know what to say.

Merkel calling out Erdogan on his infantile antics would be much better than this really. Anything else is just a waste of time and resources. There is nothing intelligent about this, it's cowardice and everyone loses when you publicly entertain the delusions of a madman.

Well, thank god then that you are not in charge and only an angry child crying on an Internet forum.

 

[Makabe]

Well, thank god then that you are not in charge and only an angry child crying on an Internet forum.

Calling someone an angry child crying on an internet forum makes you sound like an angry child crying on an internet forum.

 

[Fritz]

Calling someone an angry child crying on an internet forum makes you sound like an angry child crying on an internet forum.

I'll have to deal with that

 

[SporeCrawler]

Guys.. Germanys protects freedom of speech in its constitution too. Also its not like there have been no trials about freedom of speech in the USA. Trials happen in a democracy. And even in the USA there are boundaries to freedom of speech (inclduging understandable ones like child pornography or false facts but also vague ones like obscenity or offensive speech) Unless a judge, not merkel, has sentenced this guy there has been no decision.

 

[Stereogatari]

Erdoğan trolling Europe is always fun.

 

[Nibel]

Erdoğan trolling Europe is always fun.

Him trolling Turkey is much funnier though

 

[Osahi]

Guys.. Germanys protects freedom of speech in its constitution too. Also its not like there have been no trials about freedom of speech in the USA. Trials happen in a democracy. And even in the USA there are boundaries to freedom of speech (inclduging understandable ones like child pornography or false facts but also vague ones like obscenity or offensive speech) Unless a judge, not merkel, has sentenced this guy there has been no decision.

The law this proscecution is based on states that for a proscecution to go trough, the German government has to give it's approval. So the government was in it's right to say: nope, we don't allow proscecution for this. And it should have been the right course of action to do so.

You can discuss if this violates the seperation of powers offcourse, but that's discussing about the merits of this law (which is bad and out of time in any case).

Regardles of a conviction or aquital, Merkel gave the wrong signal imo. They basicly said: we allow for satire to be proscecuted, which in my opinion violates freedom of speech.

 

[Apt101]

I get that by strict legal means she said bla bla bla butt butt butt, but any reasonable leader would have told them to fuck right off. Change the law later.

 

[swatahafa]

Erdogan is not the only one who can't take a joke. There has never been so many oversensitive people being offended by anything as there is today.

 

[Drencrom]

Well, thank god then that you are not in charge and only an angry child crying on an Internet forum.

So instead of responding or giving a rebuttal to what I said you instead go out to insult me by calling me an angry, crying child?

Going by that you previously painted yourself as "intelligent" and well versed when it comes to law I guess shouldn't be surprised that you resort to Ad Hominem attacks.

I'll have to deal with that

At least it's nice to know that you are aware how petty you come of as.

 

[nynt9]

Erdogan is not the only one who can't take a joke. There has never been so many oversensitive people being offended by anything as there is today.

Please do tell us more about how outrage culture upsets you.

 

[Stonewall Cornball]

A) Its about to go away as already announced
B) The court will most likely dont punish Boehmermann
C) You act as you go to jail as soon as you say something, which is incorrect. Its an ass old obsolete law which wasnt used for decades.
D) Nobody gives a shit what you say because nobody knows that you exist. Do you think honestly think the usual citizen gets punished?
E) Still tons of great advantages like the social system, worker rights, etc

Plenty of germans talk shit about other countries all the time and Böhmermann is not actually convicted yet so your talk is hyperbole right now.

Paragraph 103 will also very likely get abolished.

Well, mate, I did not know of an announcement that this law is old, obsolete, and is about to be repealed.

However, it's still pretty crazy that you guys would have a law like this in the first place. It's not merely obsolete, it's an impingement on a person's freedom to criticize. I just don't see how "obsolete" even comes into the equation... it should never have been a *valid* law in the first place.

Are Germans usually in the habit of repealing old laws nobody remembers are still on the books? Like, is this a normal, nonchalant thing that you guys do over there? Don't you guys have like a magna carta or bill of rights or something to override--as you say--"ass old" laws?

 

[ElTorro]

Are Germans usually in the habit of repealing old laws nobody remembers are still on the books? Like, is this a normal, nonchalant thing that you guys do over there? Don't you guys have like a magna carta or bill of rights or something to override--as you say--"ass old" laws?

We do have such a paragraph in our constitution.

Article 5
[Freedom of expression, arts and sciences]

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures, and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honour.

(3) Arts and sciences, research and teaching shall be free. The freedom of teaching shall not release any person from allegiance to the constitution.

Unfortunately, personal honor is not well defined.

If anything, this story here gives us an opportunity to get rid of one more silly law. I am not really willing to give Merkel credit for that, though. She is clearly taking the road of realpolitik here. Which is ok, but does not deserve particular praise.

 

[FreedomFighter]

So Merkel caved.

Erdogan, Sultan of Turkey... and EU?

 

[SporeCrawler]

We do have such a paragraph in our constitution.



Unfortunately, personal honor is not well defined.

If anything, this story here gives us an opportunity to get rid of one more silly law. I am not really willing to give Merkel credit for that, though. She is clearly taking the road of realpolitik here. Which is ok, but does not deserve particular praise.

The german federal constitutional court and the german federal supreme court have set up clear criteria what is protected and what is not.

Critique is protected if its polemic or is exaggerated. Critique is not protected by the constitution if the Makn objective of the critique is to diffame a person.

This is clearly not the case here because: The poem was part of a bigger narrative stating the limits of the german constitution. It was a critique of the understanding of Fredom of Speech by Mr. Erdogan

Also the german diffamation laws require that the person must actually express that he is actually the diffamator. There have been cases were the diffamation has been citations only and those did nit have criminal consequences for the persons citing the diffamation.

So Merkel caved.

Erdogan, Sultan of Turkey... and EU?

No final decision is with the courts

 

[FreedomFighter]

No final decision is with the courts

The fact that it's even in the courts in a major fail. And a win for Erdogan's anti-free speech decree carrying weight in Germany.

 

[spekkeh]

The fact that it's even in the courts in a major fail. And a win for Erdogan's anti-free speech decree carrying weight in Germany.

Well I wouldn't say that. If you adhere to a strict separation of powers (which I don't think Germany has, but still), the chancellor should have no say in what goes to court and what doesn't. The fact that it is a law of course is dumb as shit, but that's parliament's fault.

Of course the fail is that Merkel didn't frame it like that but more like uh uuh uhn yes Erdogan sempai please tell me what to do uguu~~*.

 

[Palculator]

The fact that it's even in the courts in a major fail. And a win for Erdogan's anti-free speech decree carrying weight in Germany.

A legal matter is being settled in courts, while politicians deal with legislation.

 

[Frankfurter]

The fact that it's even in the courts in a major fail. And a win for Erdogan's anti-free speech decree carrying weight in Germany.

How so? Say Erdogan loses in a year and all that time Erdogan is in the press for being a fool. How is that a win for Erdogan? He is being attacked left and right, even US comedy shows now have him on their radar and make (more) fun of him. If anything, this shows that Erdogan is a fool.

Well I wouldn't say that. If you adhere to a strict separation of powers (which I don't think Germany has, but still), the chancellor should have no say in what goes to court and what doesn't. The fact that it is a law of course is dumb as shit, but that's parliament's fault.

Of course the fail is that Merkel didn't frame it like that but more like uh uuh uhn yes Erdogan sempai please tell me what to do uguu~~*.

Huh?