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[Poltergust]

Imagine that Phoenix Wright had only good evidence. Now, also imagine that somehow, you could choose which evidence he picks up. I'm sure we can both agree that in the current state of his evidence, the same few pieces would be chosen, because they're very good (tracking projectiles, 3-way shot, beam maybe), while others are crap in comparison (parabola shot, the one that just sits there). It would be desirable to make all of Wright's evidence worthwhile if it weren't random so you would choose difference evidence in different situations. Tailoring your evidence to the matchup would be part of the character. That's Dormammu. If you make 0D3C bad, it's just not used, and it hurts the character design.

That doesn't make any sense. Wright's optimal combination of evidence already changes depending on the match-up. The only thing that really remains constant in all of them is the Cell Phone. What are you talking about? Where's the "opportunity cost" you mentioned prior?

Also, I'm not trying to make 0D3C bad, but I'm seriously flabbergasted that anyone would think that a 15-frame full-screen unblockable move is even remotely fair. At least with most of the other fully-charged spells, the opponent needs to be near Dormammu to get the most out of them, so there is at least a risk factor involved there. That, and they are even slower to come out (well, the meteors are, at least).

Spoiler

To be honest, I don't even see the need to give Dormammu any buffs. Isn't the dude already like top 10?

You either get immobilized or you take however much damage his triple spells do in a combo, which normally kill. It's opportunity cost like he said and he still has to land a hit for him to even use it.

Remember that we're nerfing Dormammu's overall damage output.

 

[Karsticles]

Alright, so let's talk about what Dormammu has available to him for end game Dark Spells:

3D0C: full-screen explosion. Destroys all projectiles. Leads to solid damage, and even big damage if you burn X-Factor (3D0C, Dark Hole H (XFC), Mass Change H, jump loops, etc.). Great at making full-screen keepaway and tridashers scared.

2D1C: Close-up move. Excellent for reversals and just saying "I need space". Decent anti-air against some characters who like to superjump in, but not a main use. Mostly a guaranteed breathing tool.

1D2C: Covers the middle of the screen and superjump height. Hits the far end of the screen inconsistently, and doesn't touch the top-right corner at all. Has a gap up close, so rushdown characters can get past it quite easily. Best used on low mobility or slow characters for chip damage.

All three moves OTG and lead to big damage when used as combos.

To be on par with these, 0D3C has to either lead to big damage in its own way, or be useful in a way that the Dormammu player would be willing to sacrifice big damage for a positional advantage or save himself. Anything up close will be pointless, because there's nothing 0D3C can offer that would be more valuable than 2D1C. We're not changing animations, so we should focus on its virtues:
1) Goes full-screen rather quickly.
2) Is very low to the ground.
3) Causes a lasting status effect.

The one thing none of Dormammu's Dark Spells (or anything else) helps him with is random beam hypers. He has to commit to the projectiles he throws, and if someone like Trish does a random High Voltage at the same time Dormammu does Purification H, Trish wins because the high durability on High Voltage negates Purification. So, I think that if the move can't be unblockable, then it needs to be guaranteed to snuff out random full-screen hypers. This gives it a role as a long-range protective spell, like 2D1C's close-range protection. Both 1D2C and 3D0C are primarily offensive.

If this is the way to go, then it needs a few things:
1) Guaranteed to come out on frame 1.
2) Projectile invulnerability (otherwise beam hypers like Shinku Hadoken will snuff it).
3) OTG for flexibility outside of countering hypers.

I think that's the starting point for making it useful.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

The suggestion wasn't to change his jump height, but to give him a separate "hop" with a KoF input.


..

Oh someone suggested an actual hop? I just meant his actual jumping height.

 

[Karsticles]

Oh someone suggested an actual hop? I just meant his actual jumping height.

That would just reduce his ability to air throw people.

It was mainly meant as a joke since I find this whole conversation rather amusing.

I know I'm laughing. I remember when people had this conversation in Vanilla.

Also, I'm not trying to make 0D3C bad, but I'm seriously flabbergasted that anyone would think that a 15-frame full-screen unblockable move is even remotely fair. At least with most of the other fully-charged spells, the opponent needs to be near Dormammu to get the most out of them, so there is at least a risk factor involved there. That, and they are even slower to come out (well, the meteors are, at least).

It's not fair, but none of Dormammu's 3-charge spells are fair. That's the point of them. If they were fair, no one would use them. They need to be roughly on par with a hyper to be useful. That's how good his other Liberations are. Hell, they're actually better than most hypers. How many characters would give up one of their hypers for 2D1C or 3D0C? A lot, I imagine.

 

[Dahbomb]

Remember that we're nerfing Dormammu's overall damage output.

We already did. If he wants forgo the damage on his 2D1C, 1D2C moves then that's his choice. He can put someone in the root then go for a mix up. It's not a guaranteed opener, it's just a hard to block stuff because you are on the ground. Or he can sit back and charge spells during this root. Or he can try to chip you with pillars or Flares.

I want to see someone stock up the 3C spells, root someone and then mix them up. It's like the Jamming Bomb of MODOK, if you get hit by it then you know you are fucked.

The only thing I am hesitant on is it being guaranteed on 1 frame although if you saw Dorm charge this spell up (he will have all Blue) then you know what to expect. If you can bait out this move has terrible recovery and he is forced to do something panicky.

 

[Karsticles]

Current suggestion for 0D3C:
1) Frame data unchanged (300 frame duration).
2) Roots.
3) Comes out guaranteed after frame 1 (otherwise it will be useless against beams).
4) Projectile invincible.
5) OTGs for versatility.

This is probably the most minor way to make 0D3C usable.

Characters this would become the choice input for:
Vergil
Dr. Strange

I can't think of any other characters I would use this against consistently, but it's still an improvement, since currently it's not useful against anyone.

 

[Professor Beef]

I swear you go out of your way to misread my posts.


And you completely ignore the numerous buffs I've said would be too good for him. Do you even read my posts, or do you just respond with preconceived notions repeatedly to bolster your self-confidence?

Sorry that I don't believe that giving him a free debuff for the sake of making every single dark spell better. It's a terrible decision. If most of Dorm's repertoire were bad then I might be inclined to agree, but he does just fine without that particular spell. There's no (good) reason to give it any sort of buffs.

A character having a bad move (or a move that doesn't see much use) isn't Marvel-exclusive, either. Sometimes people prefer using moves that are more effective. This goes back all the way to Marvel 1, even. Mega Man had moves that nobody used. So did Strider, Venom, Captain Commando, Cyclops, Psylocke, Cable, etc. They were all strong characters, and nobody tried to complain about not being able to use every single move that they had. A lot of times the characters (and others) had tons of good shit, but some things were just blatantly better. Even in Street Fighter you don't see people using every single move they have (although to be fair, most characters have a lot less moves to work with in that engine). You don't see me moaning about how Frank's zombie toss (the charge-motion one) is bad, or Joe's bombs are bad. Don't get me wrong, they're awful, but changing them around "just because" isn't really doing either character any favors.

I'd argue that the same is true for Dorm. His spells are good. Inferno and those meteors are damn good at letting Dorm chip people out or just doing massive damage or interrupting people. He's got a bunch of great stuff as it is. So if he happens to have a move that isn't so hot, then so what? He's still amazing. Nothing is going to happen if his 3C spell doesn't get buffed. I would even wager that it still wouldn't see play because people are so much more used to the combos that everyone already uses.

All you're doing is trying to make an already-good character even better with an even more ridiculous debuff for no cost. Charging spells up is already easy as hell with the right team and the right opponent. But if you're absolutely dead-set on changing it, then make it root.

 

[Dahbomb]

You know this is funny.

If Capcom would've given Dorm projectile invulnerability on 3C, he would've been a full counter to Vergil. If Dorm had stocked 3C Vergil wouldn't be able to do anything as 3C would go through Spiral Swords, would go through his Judment Cut block strings, would go through Round Trip traps/block strings, would catch his teleport mix ups. Dorm could just stay on the ground and Vergil could do nothing.

Too bad Vergil is gonna be obsolete anyway in this patch when he has to spend 2 bars for SS.

I can't think of any other characters I would use this against consistently, but it's still an improvement, since currently it's not useful against anyone.

I think absolutely would crush Hawkeye, Strange and Vergil. Unsurprisingly those are three of his worst match ups.

 

[Karsticles]

You know this is funny.

If Capcom would've given Dorm projectile invulnerability on 3C, he would've been a full counter to Vergil. If Dorm had stocked 3C Vergil wouldn't be able to do anything as 3C would go through Spiral Swords, would go through his Judment Cut block strings, would go through Round Trip traps/block strings, would catch his teleport mix ups. Dorm could just stay on the ground and Vergil could do nothing.

At the same time, Vergil doesn't really care that much about jumping against Dormammu.

And 0D3C counters Spiral Swords on reaction in its current state. FChamp did it once and it was glorious. But activating Spiral Swords randomly against Dormammu is already dumb. I still see it in competition and I don't get it. It's like Vergil players aren't used to being invincible.

I think absolutely would crush Hawkeye, Strange and Vergil. Unsurprisingly those are three of his worst match ups.

The thing about Hawkeye is that 3D0C would still be the better choice, since it makes him scared to throw out any projectiles at all. However, if someone ran a Vergil/Hawkeye unit, then I would probably go with this 0D3C if everyone approves of it.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yea but it doesn't root him when in SS at least I don't think?

Also the main thing is that 1 frame guaranteed. That is what would destroy his strings. In normal mode all of his Round Trip and Judgment Cuts strings have gap in them so if you buffer Liberation you can beat out his pressure easily. Most characters simply don't have the option to break through the strings without taking big risks (which is why someone like Spencer does well against Vergil along with his Bionic Arm beating swords cleanly at a distance).

I still think Immobilized effect should be considered on root. 5 seconds of immobility on an X factor character off of a 1 frame guaranteed move? That sounds legitimately useful to me at least.

 

[Karsticles]

I feel like this 0D0C might be too good, but I want it to have some use. Maybe I'll just increase the hitbox slightly; it has never felt like it hit as far as the animation does.

Dormammu:
*j.M hit float properties returned to Vanilla status (no knockback).
*3D0C is now +1 on block.
*0D3C now OTGs; projectile invincible; guaranteed on frame 1.
*Ground and air throw range extended slightly; air throws no longer occasionally cause opponents to bounce off of a wall.
*c.M returned to Vanilla status; still chains into H inputs.
*0D1C and 0D2C now hit OTG.
*s.H frontal hitbox made slightly larger (c.L, s.H always hits).
*Damage on normals reduced by 10% across the board.
*0D0C startup is 10 frames; hitbox increased slightly.
*Flame Carpet no longer hits low.

Assists: Purification (Tracking), Dark Matter, Dark Spell (L)

 

[Dahbomb]

Congrats Karst... now ever one of Dorm's move has some use.

Now back to relevant characters like Iron Fist.

Iron Fist:

*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.
*Chis can be chained into Rekkas
*Twin Snakes is now jump-cancelable.

 

[Frantic]

Sorta random, but since I saw Dahbomb mention it... I need to start throwing out snapbacks whenever someone tries to use Round Trip in a string.

Also, Rubeks vs Apologyman.

 

[Poltergust]

Current suggestion for 0D3C:
1) Frame data unchanged (300 frame duration).
2) Roots.
3) Comes out guaranteed after frame 1 (otherwise it will be useless against beams).
4) Projectile invincible.
5) OTGs for versitality.

I have no objections to this

Spoiler

teehee

. Much more interesting than my idea to have 0D3C ground-bounce so he can combo into Chaotic Flame at the end of a combo.

 

[Dahbomb]

I like how Nova has more nerfs than Dorm.

Please take out j.H hit box nerf, we already nerfed his air throw range.

 

[Sigmaah]

Holy shit I forgot how much fun Wesker is. STRAIGHT RUSHDOWN ANNIHILATION.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

That would just reduce his ability to air throw people.

I would definitely take the harder air throws if I could have constant pressure off of f+H. You'd have to constantly wonder if he's gonna go high or low

 

[Karsticles]

Sorta random, but since I saw Dahbomb mention it... I need to start throwing out snapbacks whenever someone tries to use Round Trip in a string.

Also, Rubeks vs Apologyman.

Great set.

I have no objections to this

Spoiler

teehee

. Much more interesting than my idea to have 0D3C ground-bounce so he can combo into Chaotic Flame at the end of a combo.

Yay!

I like how Nova has more nerfs than Dorm.

Please take out j.H hit box nerf, we already nerfed his air throw range.

That makes sense, since Nova stole $6000 from two top USA players this month and Dormammu did jack. ;-)

 

[Dahbomb]

How many Nova players in EVO top 8 vs how many Dorm players in top 8?

Also EVO title vs no EVO title.

BTW since we on the topic of Nemo... Nemo's team is the ultimate anti Doom team that doesn't have someone like Dorm on it. In almost 50+ games, I think Doom got to play and land a hit in 2 games maybe tops. I almost felt bad for the character.....

Almost.

 

[Karsticles]

What needs to change, if anything?


Nova:
*Air throw range reduced considerably.
*Timing for comboing off of throws made more strict.
*Human Rocket blockstun reduced (hitstun unchanged).
*Red health boosts only occur when S is inputted along with the normal command input; red health lost capped at 400,000.
*c.L is now +1 on block.
*Energy Javelin (assist) causes a soft knockdown.

Assists: Energy Javelin, Centurion Rush M, Gravimetric Pulse H

Dormammu:
*j.M hit float properties returned to Vanilla status (no knockback).
*3D0C is now +1 on block.
*0D3C now OTGs; projectile invincible; guaranteed on frame 1.
*Ground and air throw range extended slightly; air throws no longer occasionally cause opponents to bounce off of a wall.
*c.M returned to Vanilla status; still chains into H inputs.
*0D1C and 0D2C now hit OTG.
*s.H frontal hitbox made slightly larger (c.L, s.H always hits).
*Damage on normals reduced by 10% across the board.
*0D0C startup is 10 frames; hitbox increased slightly.
*Flame Carpet no longer hits low.

Assists: Purification (Tracking), Dark Matter, Dark Spell (L)

Super-Skrull:
*Says “He loves you!” again during Inferno.
*Meteor Smash assist causes a soft knockdown; hitbox reduced slightly from point version; no OTG; no overhead.
*Orbital Grudge now -1 on block.
*Skrull Torch no longer makes Super-Skrull prone until landing; full startup invincibility.
*Stone Smite gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 14-58.
*Stone Dunk gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 16-42.
*Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.
*Flame Kick gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 12-52.
*Inferno damage reduced slightly.
*df.H hitstun increased (blockstun unchanged).

Assists: Tenderizer L, Orbital Grudge M x Fatal Buster, Meteor Smash (Tracking)

Iron Fist:
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.
*Chi L, M, and H recovery reduced to 10; armor changed to frames 1-11.
*Twin Snakes is now jump-cancelable.

Assists: Rising Fang, Crescent Heel, Wall of K’un-Lun

How many Nova players in EVO top 8 vs how many Dorm players in top 8?

Also EVO title vs no EVO title.

Nemo would have won Evo free if he didn't sandbag for the MMs.

And GF had Nova in it last year. If that were Nemo the set would have been 6-2, but it was Ifrit. #makingshitup

 

[Dahbomb]

Dude I told you, allow Chis chainable into Rekka for Iron Fist. You can keep your changes if you want just give him ability to chain Rekkas after it.

There is no way that it can be even broken... this is a game where Zero has special move Buster cancel.

 

[Karsticles]

Dude I told you, allow Chis chainable into Rekka for Iron Fist.

My bad. I thought I added it in.

Iron Fist:
*Crescent Heel no longer ground bounces a standing opponent; assist startup time reduced to 37 frames.
*Volanic Roar causes a soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Iron Fist now has enough time to OTG opponents following Dragon’s Prey.
*Wall of K’un-Lun and Rising Fang can be performed without the Rekka series
*c.L now hits low.
*s.S hitbox increased to allow conversions against aerial opponents near the ground.
*Can now double jump.
*Untechable time after an air and ground throw increased.
*Chi L, M, and H recovery reduced to 10; armor changed to frames 1-11; cancelable into Rekkas.
*Twin Snakes is now jump-cancelable.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Alright I'm fighting for this one. Reducing iron fists jump height is going to give him actual mixups. Instant overhead or dragon tail off of f+H. He himself will be much harder to air throw. People already air throw pretty close to the ground, so he'll still regularly be able to get air throws. I can't see a reason to not add this.

 

[Dahbomb]

One last thing then I got to bed... what's the rationale behind 2 hits of armor on those charged moves for Skrull? I forgot to ask this earlier.

 

[Frantic]

Nemo would have won Evo free if he didn't sandbag for the MMs.

And GF had Nova in it last year. If that were Nemo the set would have been 6-2, but it was Ifrit. #makingshitup

pfft, please. Champ was sandbagging against Nemo so hard. He did it just so he can get a MM runback with a higher payout some time later. Obviously.

 

[Karsticles]

Alright I'm fighting for this one. Reducing iron fists jump height is going to give him actual mixups. Instant overhead or dragon tail off of f+H. He himself will be much harder to air throw. People already air throw pretty close to the ground, so he'll still regularly be able to get air throws. I can't see a reason to not add this.

I'll let someone else argue the opposing point. Sollune, Shao?

One last thing then I got to bed... what's the rationale behind 2 hits of armor on those charged moves for Skrull? I forgot to ask this earlier.

They just have huge startup, so I figured they needed more than 1. I mean, 50 frames...that's a lot of time without doing anything. I don't even know if they will be useful...oh, and I want to reduce the startup on Stone Smite. OTGing with that after an air series is way too hard.

pfft, please. Champ was sandbagging against Nemo so hard. He did it just so he can get a MM runback with a higher payout some time later. Obviously.

I believed that FChamp was just sandbagging until CEO. Then...and then at Evo...yeah. He really needs to focus on just one team. He spends too much time messing with alt crap.

And I still want a ChrisG vs FChamp runback.

Is Nemo going to be at VxG?

Super-Skrull:
*Says “He loves you!” again during Inferno.
*Meteor Smash assist causes a soft knockdown; hitbox reduced slightly from point version; no OTG; no overhead.
*Orbital Grudge now -1 on block.
*Skrull Torch no longer makes Super-Skrull prone until landing; full startup invincibility.
*Stone Smite gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 14-53; startup reduced to 47.
*Stone Dunk gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 16-42.
*Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.
*Flame Kick gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 12-52.
*Inferno damage reduced slightly.
*df.H hitstun increased (blockstun unchanged).

Assists: Tenderizer L, Orbital Grudge M x Fatal Buster, Meteor Smash (Tracking)

 

[Zissou]

I want to reduce the startup on Stone Smite. OTGing with that after an air series is way too hard.

Yes please! You have to really delay the air series and start charging the instant you hit the ground. It needs to be a little more lenient.

 

[Dahbomb]

Alright I'm fighting for this one. Reducing iron fists jump height is going to give him actual mixups. Instant overhead or dragon tail off of f+H. He himself will be much harder to air throw. People already air throw pretty close to the ground, so he'll still regularly be able to get air throws. I can't see a reason to not add this.

Is this even a change you can make? I thought characters had same jump height... just different speeds of jump?

At this point you would have to remove other changes on IF to get this in.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Is this even a change you can make? I thought characters had same jump height... just different speeds of jump?

At this point you would have to remove other changes on IF to get this in.

I can't really tell since character size is so varied. Just like I can't tell if characters actually have different grab ranges. This game is a mystery of bullshit.

 

[Azure J]

So I just played against HAZ|Forward in a random ranked match. You'd think I'd get a chance to play proficiently and show off some Viper tech v another Viper main, but nope, Speed of Light: Fate of 3 Bars put a stop to that early.

At least I got complimented on my team.

 

[Professor Beef]

So I just played against HAZ|Forward in a random ranked match. You'd think I'd get a chance to play proficiently and show off some Viper tech v another Viper main, but nope, Speed of Light: Fate of 3 Bars put a stop to that early.

At least I got complimented on my team.

You don't have 3-bar combos?

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

So I just played against HAZ|Forward in a random ranked match. You'd think I'd get a chance to play proficiently and show off some Viper tech v another Viper main, but nope, Speed of Light: Fate of 3 Bars put a stop to that early.

At least I got complimented on my team.

You play on xbl right?

 

[Dahbomb]

IF still has a fuzzy guard overheard and with a double jump he will be able to make more use out of it. His overhead will still be his main opening tool and it's improved now as you get near full damage from it. The main change on him is the cr.L low, now you can't up back against him and even then he has an improved throw game now as well. Jump cancel off of Twin Dragon allows him more fuzzy stuff even potential cross ups.

In the neutral Iron Fist basically becomes a rushdown character with powerful armor moves. Basically anyone throwing a dive kick on him will get armor chi'd into rekka..He will still struggle against someone like Zero but against other basic rushdown characters he will dominate them. With Chi into WKL he has double armor although WKL can't be chained into further rekkas so its a hail Mary for him until he uses his Iron Rage hyper
like a frame trap.

Against zoning he will still struggle but he has hail mary Rising Fang now. Although any zoner who relies on single hitting projectiles would still get rushed down by IF as he can armor a single hit then advance with a rekka. His other main problem is super jumpers. He can use one of many super jump assists in the game although Vajra will be a must for him as he can get a full combo. Improved AA hyper means he gets more out of thst hyper if he makes a read and its best to waste meter on that as its his safest move from that space. Still requires a lockdown assist to open someone up. His mix ups are basic but actually effective now.

Basically he is at spot where Justin Wong can probably win EVO with him because he's Justin Wong.

 

[Azure J]

@Beef: I needed to drop it down to 1 bar combos during that set. We ST mode now.
@Mango: Yeah, I'm on XBL.

 

[Professor Beef]

@Beef: I needed to drop it down to 1 bar combos during that set. We ST mode now.

holy shit

nitsuma giveth, nitsuma taketh away

all praise da gawd

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

@Beef: I needed to drop it down to 1 bar combos during that set. We ST mode now.
@Mango: Yeah, I'm on XBL.

Cool....I'm trying to play more gaf folk. I've only played Beef and Vice.

I think I've played you before but it was before I joined gaf

 

[Renegade_Civil-War]

I think giving Dormammu a bunch of buffs while hitting Nova with a nerf hammer is kinda dumb since they're pretty much at the same spot on the current tier list...


I like buffing 0D3C though, shit is really cool. How about making it hit assist characters too? Then it would be REALLY anti Doom, and very much worth using.


Dorms launcher should be at least -10.

Don't nerf Nova's throws, just nerf the option select and the untechable time.




Regarding Iron Fist, I don't see how giving him Air Ok Rising Fang is that big a deal. People are talking about giving him an air dash, and this is way less extreme than that. If you block an air Rising Fang, that's a free air grab into combo. It's not like the move is invincible or anything, he'd still run into shit.

It's the equivalent of X-23's slice kick for air mobility with more speed but no angles and far less safety.

 

[Fringot]

I think a good idea would be to get input from the top players of each character and organize it into a proper document.

On Shoryuken.com, some have suggested nerfing the high tier characters while another group suggests buffing everybody up to the tier where Zero, Vergil, Wesker, and Morrigan reside.

Imagine an EVO where all the characters have some crazy, top tier way to fight. I still imagine that people will find it entertaining. While watching the last EVO, I was amazed that people really like the crazy setups some players invented. Also, a Phoenix Wright actually won on stream with some insane gameplay that took the opponent off-guard.

 

[Azn_Boy]

I think a good idea would be to get input from the top players of each character and organize it into a proper document.

On Shoryuken.com, some have suggested nerfing the high tier characters while another group suggests buffing everybody up to the tier where Zero, Vergil, Wesker, and Morrigan reside.

Imagine an EVO where all the characters have some crazy, top tier way to fight. I still imagine that people will find it entertaining. While watching the last EVO, I was amazed that people really like the crazy setups some players invented. Also, a Phoenix Wright actually won on stream with some insane gameplay that took the opponent off-guard.

Some characters will never be top tier unless you do some lazy, unreasonable changes. And just because you're buffing all the lowmid to low tier characters doesn't mean they'll be as good as current top tiers. They could become better or still be worse. Regardless, no matter how much you change things there will be a group of characters better than the rest and people will complain about them.

 

[Dahbomb]

Honestly speaking the main issue people have with Rising Fang air OK is the projectile nullification ability. How about we make Rising Fang air OK but air OK version does not have this property? This could be an alternate way for him to get and not only that he would finally have super jump confirm combos.

We already gave Jill air OK arrow kick, I think giving IF air OK Rising Fang (no anti-projectile property) is extremely reasonable.

Imagine an EVO where all the characters have some crazy, top tier way to fight. I still imagine that people will find it entertaining. While watching the last EVO, I was amazed that people really like the crazy setups some players invented. Also, a Phoenix Wright actually won on stream with some insane gameplay that took the opponent off-guard.

The answer simply that there's GOOD top tier characters and BAD top tier characters.

The good top tiers require work and effort plus thought and match up experience.

The bad top tiers don't require as much work and effort... they can just start their game plan without really giving a damn what's going on. These characters usually have a way to make the opponent not play.

People don't want the good top tiers nerfed that much (just some slight modifications) but people want nerfs on bad top tiers. No one wants to see brain dead easy Spiral Sword pressure or Zero Lightning Looping people. They don't want to see Hidden Missiles disallowing people to play for short amounts of time. People don't want to see or experience incoming characters getting killed by unblockables and having no opportunity to play let alone even have a chance at blocking.

These characters even if you buff everyone else will still be extremely frustrating to fight against. And the amount you need to buff IF to match Zero is extremely substantial... like we are talking about 20 legit buffs here some include giving him new moves. The easier answer is to tone down a few top tiers and buff the rest.... and that's what we are going for here. We have WAY more buffs than nerfs... it's almost a 9-1 or 8-2 ratio.

 

[SolarPowered]

I think a good idea would be to get input from the top players of each character and organize it into a proper document.

On Shoryuken.com, some have suggested nerfing the high tier characters while another group suggests buffing everybody up to the tier where Zero, Vergil, Wesker, and Morrigan reside.

Imagine an EVO where all the characters have some crazy, top tier way to fight. I still imagine that people will find it entertaining. While watching the last EVO, I was amazed that people really like the crazy setups some players invented. Also, a Phoenix Wright actually won on stream with some insane gameplay that took the opponent off-guard.

Last I checked Zero and Vergil are the only characters in the same tier out of those four.

 

[Fringot]

I see, how many tier lists are out there for umvc3? I was going by this: http://www.eventhubs.com/columns/20...ultimate-marvel-vs-capcom-3-tier-list-part-1/

The guys a top player who has an incredible ability to analyse a characters strengths and weaknesses as well as find combos. That's why I was thinking, all the top players with great skills in analysis could figure out what the lower tiers need to match the top tiers without deviating from their respective playstyles.

For example, let's take Hsien-Ko, considered by most to be bottom tier and considered by novices to be terrifying due to her armor assist{although every pro player I've seen fight it just jumps right over it or punishes it with a beam super, at which point, her hyper armor becomes a double edged sword, allowing her to take the full damage and losing 70 to 100% life. Well, back to the point.} Anyways, a good way to buff her moves without out right changing them would be to give her the ability to throw multiple objects at once? She was able to do so in Super Gem Fighter, {and her sword ground hyper went in both directions.}

Some suggest that she would be decent if they increased her overall mobility since a lot of the cast can outrun and out zone her.

Now, I think the key to fixing this game is analyzing what makes the top tier so good, what exactly it is their doing that makes them excel against others.

An argument about the top tier is that they're normal and special moves are better than the moves possessed by those in the lower tier. Simply put, we just gotta improve the start up times, damage, and/or other properties.

Well, actually, I saw an analysis by a forum member there that explains why the game is ruled by certain characters. I believe this analysis is the key to balancing Umvc3 or at least getting everybody to the point of tournament viability.

 

[SolarPowered]

I see, how many tier lists are out there for umvc3? I was going by this: http://www.eventhubs.com/columns/20...ultimate-marvel-vs-capcom-3-tier-list-part-1/

The guys a top player who has an incredible ability to analyse a characters strengths and weaknesses as well as find combos. That's why I was thinking, all the top players with great skills in analysis could figure out what the lower tiers need to match the top tiers without deviating from their respective playstyles.

For example, let's take Hsien-Ko, considered by most to be bottom tier and considered by novices to be terrifying due to her armor assist{although every pro player I've seen fight it just jumps right over it or punishes it with a beam super, at which point, her hyper armor becomes a double edged sword, allowing her to take the full damage and losing 70 to 100% life. Well, back to the point.} Anyways, a good way to buff her moves without out right changing them would be to give her the ability to throw multiple objects at once? She was able to do so in Super Gem Fighter, {and her sword ground hyper went in both directions.}

Some suggest that she would be decent if they increased her overall mobility since a lot of the cast can outrun and out zone her.

Now, I think the key to fixing this game is analyzing what makes the top tier so good, what exactly it is their doing that makes them excel against others.

An argument about the top tier is that they're normal and special moves are better than the moves possessed by those in the lower tier. Simply put, we just gotta improve the start up times, damage, and/or other properties.

Well, actually, I saw an analysis by a forum member there that explains why the game is ruled by certain characters. I believe this analysis is the key to balancing Umvc3 or at least getting everybody to the point of tournament viability.

There are more tier lists out there than there are grains of sand on all the beaches of the Earth.

We did that whole bit about figuring out top tiers back in the Vanilla Marvel OTs and why they ruled with an iron fist. It was pretty intense stuff.

 

[EsotericManiac]

Yea, there's no way Wesker is top tier anymore. XF3 Wesker is good, but can't compare to dark vergil

 

[Dahbomb]

There have been a ton of analysis and a ton of tier lists posted. I think a lot of people here have a general idea of where certain characters are and why they are strong/weak. There will always be disagreements over stuff like if a character is top 10 or top 15, as long as we get the broad strokes right that's fine. We are trying the best we can.

 

[GuardianE]

Why is it a big deal if some of Dormammu's spells aren't terribly useful? Dante has 41 moves and while there's hidden utility in many of them, some of them will really never see use outside of combo videos. Should we go back and add more to those moves so that they see tournament play? I don't think so.

What's the current Dorm changelist?

 

[SolarPowered]

There have been a ton of analysis and a ton of tier lists posted. I think a lot of people here have a general idea of where certain characters are and why they are strong/weak. There will always be disagreements over stuff like if a character is top 10 or top 15, as long as we get the broad strokes right that's fine. We are trying the best we can.

I'm skimming through some old posts from the OTs. It's funny seeing who was right and wrong.

 

[Vice]

Not every move in a charcters arsenal will be useful. Buffing an already syrong character to make every tool more usable does not always lead to a more balanced gaame when that character is already incredibly dominate.

 

[GuardianE]

I'm skimming through some old posts from the OTs. It's funny seeing who was right and wrong.

As for Morrigan, I agree that she's a lot better than most people give her credit for. I'd stick her in the B+/A- range, because I don't think she has the versatility that a lot of the other A tier does. I think she's only going to get stronger with the flight/Soul Fist loop combos.

Hah, it is fun. I still think she's firmly in the A-/A range at most.

 

[Dahbomb]

Why is it a big deal if some of Dormammu's spells aren't terribly useful? Dante has 41 moves and while there's hidden utility in many of them, some of them will really never see use outside of combo videos. Should we go back and add more to those moves so that they see tournament play?

Hey man I definitely suggested a buff to Multilock.

I think at the minimum though 3D, 3C, 2D1C and 1D2C have to be very good. In Vanilla only 3D was good, the rest were meh. In Ultimate the first 3 are good but 3C still sucks so we were trying to fix that.

Beyond that I couldn't give a damn about the 1D, 2C stuff especially the 00 spell. These particularly can't be that good, your end goal should always be full stock. I mean 00 should not even have a hit box, it should just be Dorm flexing and realizing he has nothing then gets bopped for it (like PW trying to present bad evidence). That's why it was nuts that Karst proposed the move should be a 5 framer move on Dorm...