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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
Wasn't someone from ND in here a while back saying they don't have two teams? They just ramp up one team and have additional people working in parallel on other things - but not a full team? So eg now last of us is nearly done, some of the team can move off to start up new things
I think it's more about the PS3 not getting a version than MS losing anything.
I thought you meant that publishers were pissed at Sony but I see you meant it the other way around. I can see what you mean now, and I would agree Sony has a right to be pissed at some of these.
Having said that Sony has an excellent relationship with EA, Ubi, Namco, Tecmo, Square Enix (Japan), Irrational, Rockstar, Valve so they are fine in that regard.
There might be some friction with Bethesda over Skyrim still and Gearbox because Pitchford basically told Sony to pay him for the development of Borderlands 2 on Vita.
No it was ND saying that there is no U2 team and U3 team. They're all U2 team, as they split after U2. It was basically ND's way of saying there is no A and B team.
In the case of Skyrim Bethesda admitted they did a poor porting job so I think that's fine whereas gearbox were trying to take advantage of sony to get them to fund it so there could be some stress there.
If you ask me this is the best possible turn of events. PS4 and X720 may seem different on paper, but according to all reliable sources, will be consoles of equal technical capabilities.
While Sony and Microsoft are taking different approach in creating/modifying hardware the end result - IQ and overall performance in games should be identical.
So the real next gen battle will obviously not be waged on the field of what hardware can do, but on the field of services - PSN(+), Live (Gold) and exclusive offerings Sony and Microsoft will have. And I find that this is best possible thing that can happen.
Isn't that what happened this generation?
I was referring to the possibility of someone, Microsoft or Sony, designing significantly weaker console ("the WiiU road" ) than their competitor.
I remember reading rumors these past few months saying how developers don't have confidence in Sony's hardware, that Durango was significantly stronger, etc.
And then Internet doomsayers joined in on the fun proclaiming that, no way in hell Sony is building decent hardware because of their financial troubles.
I'm very happy that these latest rumors have shown that none of that was true and that Sony and Microsoft will go toe to toe in next gen.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I wasn't ready or you didn't present it in a manor that caught my attention. You keep saying the Xbox3 will be a super computer with features that will blow the PS4 away but if it's custom Microsoft and only in the Xbox3 then it does AMD no good (Advertising wise) and porting from PC or PS4 to Xbox3 will be as difficult as porting to PS3 from Xbox 360 was last generation. This is why you turn me off. The information you have uncovered combined with what I have uncovered has to be related because AMD is the common connection.@Jeff, U are not following we already discuss about NOC,
I already many times posted the linkedin of Eric, plus his link also his MAster Inventor Friends, Most of Master inventor worked at MS
NOC IP can be Any CPU
Also remember Eric Mejdrich Ray tracing patent
Parallelized Ray Tracing
http://www.google.com/patents/US20110285710
Ray tracing image processing system
http://www.google.com/patents/US8139060
BTE = Basic Troughput Engine = 1 Core have 4 Thread
BTE in Module of 4 , so it can be per 4 module or 8 module
VTE = Vector Troughput engine
VTE Scalable
Xbox next : MCM = BTE(edram) + GPU + 1.5GB-2GB GDDR5 Vram
Xbox next = MCM <--> VTE <--> 5GB DDR3/DDR4
Xbox next = FULL HSA (Software + hardware + Scalability) , PS4 not full HSA, Xbox next gpu code name = "80" = not in standard AMD GPU roadmap = Future Gen = Heavy RD (IBM+AMD+MS)
ex Master Inventor IBM , Now Since 2010-2011 Working for MS
Bkilian (I think he know more about it, VTE ???, but his info probably outdated about the flop, beside the customization, or he just trying to playing with words, assuming as above per GPU = 2 Core per die, non cross fired based, then he is right 1.2 just for 1 GPU ID, per MCM= 2 GPU core)
The issues we have been discussing; features in AMD 2014 GPUs (9000 series) or rather likely in the SoC, that are needed but not in 8000 series GPUs or SoCs for full HSA, Context switching, Graphics pre-emption and more have to be provided if both consoles are using older GPUs and SoCs/APUs.
My guess is that both Microsoft and Sony want/need the 2014 AMD features including full HSA that are coming with 2014 AMD designs but those designs are at 20nm and it's too risky as an unknown to use a new node so they use current AMD GCN GPU and Jaguar CPU @ 28nm and port the Intellectual Property that makes the 2014 designs what they are down from 20nm to 28nm. Microsoft if Charlie's OBAN article is correct is taking 7000 series GPUs and doing the same.
The above is being misunderstood. Most of the patents I cited which you did bring up first are about how to implement Software taking advantage of NOC hardware and QOS software that Microsoft needs to implement in their operating system. These features (HSA Foundation) are going to make their way into other HSA member hardware. We are finally seeing hints, I think, of some of the other hardware in 2014 AMD SoCs that make Full HSA possible.
Edit: APU + GPU is no longer necessary if NOC designs are used in the PS4 to provide Context switching and Graphics pre-emption.
Really really good finds:
Also remember Eric Mejdrich Ray tracing patent
Parallelized Ray Tracing
http://www.google.com/patents/US20110285710
Ray tracing image processing system
http://www.google.com/patents/US8139060
Notice one of them has a PS3 controller. This should be discussed further as one of the patent drawings is about how Vector Rays are used with next generation head mounted glasses and camera by Sony, Microsoft and Google.
This is exciting in and of it'self and I'm much more enthusiastic about both next generation consoles and what they can do. They will be as bkillian said able to do more than PCs at least in the short term for AMD PCs with Intel relegated to only business PCs.
GarthVaderUK
Banned
I wish I could understand those posts.
MikeE21286
Member
I don't think either of them could possibly do that. They need each other.
That is unless one of them had something wildly innovative that would allow them to differentiate themselves and sustain support completely independent of the other (like the Wii phenomenon this generation).
If any of the two could do that it would be Sony (and even that would be a stretch). Microsoft just doesn't have the 1st part support that Nintendo or Sony have.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Look at the pictures at the bottom of this patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US20110285710
In the following chart we are at 2013 with partial HSA 8000 series GPUs. There are several features we need that are in 2014 SoC/GPUs but 2014 GPUs are being made at 20nm and that is too new a process with unknowns for a Console launch. So Sony takes a 2013 8000 GPU and jaguar CPU @ 28nm and ports the HSA stuff from 2014 designs at 20nm to 28 nm.
Anyway that's my take.
Can Crusher
Banned
In all honestly, Bayonetta is a really small IP.
Look at the pictures at the bottom of this patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US20110285710
In the following chart we are at 2013 with partial HSA 8000 series GPUs. There are several features we need that are in 2014 SoC/GPUs but 2014 GPUs are being made at 20nm and that is too new a process with unknowns for a Console launch. So Sony takes a 2013 8000 GPU and jaguar CPU @ 28nm and ports the HSA stuff from 2014 designs at 20nm to 28 nm.
Anyway that's my take.
If MS has nothing exclusive towards its platform that allows it to have less theoretical FLOPs potential, but perform at the same level of the PS4 specs, because AMD doesn't want the Xbox to have a leg on the PS4, then what was the point of MS working with them for so long?
Is MS really so worried with cost saving that they are gonna let the PS4 simply have more power even though they are releasing at the same time?
Yep, which is why Sega passed on the sequel first.
Clay Davis
Member
you and me both, brother. you and me both.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around HPA. goodness, this next gen is going to be nigh on impossible when engaging in discussions about tech.
whatever happened to just increasing the bits?
didnt sony filed a patent for context switching between GPUs in december? i think they did.Look at the pictures at the bottom of this patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US20110285710
In the following chart we are at 2013 with partial HSA 8000 series GPUs. There are several features we need that are in 2014 SoC/GPUs but 2014 GPUs are being made at 20nm and that is too new a process with unknowns for a Console launch. So Sony takes a 2013 8000 GPU and jaguar CPU @ 28nm and ports the HSA stuff from 2014 designs at 20nm to 28 nm.
Anyway that's my take.
edit: yep.
http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2012/12...-context-switching-between-gpus-hints-at-ps4/
jeff_rigby
Banned
The effort to provide the tools to take advantage of the common hardware elements is part of the differentiation and Microsoft can have some other "secret sauce" that the PS4 doesn't have. It can't be too much different or we will have in the Xbox 3 a "PS3" situation where porting to the Xbox 3 is harder and PC to PS4 easier....
shadowsdarknes
Member
This is what I was talking about in the other thread. I think this patent is the best indication of what Sony is trying to do. Two GPUs is wild, and in that patent it says spare power can be utilized in ways other than the OP features.
Can Crusher
Banned
Durango is starting to feel very anti climatic.
Karak
Member
Don't get caught up in every post, either bad OR good when systems come out. There is More than just fast memory and tools going into these.
Can Crusher
Banned
Let my ride my roller coaster man. I like this stuff
Just don't get crushed
ahaha I like you man
Karak
Member
I wonder if they're going to have a separate RAM solution for the OS as well.
Surprising of how all the RAM talk has pretty much obscured discussions about the GPU.
oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh that'd be great... leave 4GDDR5 alone (for purely game development).
SniperHunter
Banned
I wonder what OS Sony is going to use? Do they still use XMB in their tv sets? I like XMB but it needs a interface overhaul
I'm sure they'll change it... XMB is pretty old now and they didn't use it for Vita.
But isn't that primarily because of how it was designed around a touch screen interface?
SniperHunter
Banned
yea you are right, they are probably working on something new. Hopefully it isn't bloated....
THE:MILKMAN
Member
From the specs we know, I don't. One thing I will say though is the Durango does sound nearer the complexity of PS2/PS3 with it's eSRAM/eDRAM, Audio DSP, other secret sauce....
From what we have heard of Orbis it seems more like a 360 in it's simplicity. Though that is probably because the other things haven't leaked yet.
Yes, but for PS4 I think they're going to follow the MS line of "clustered together" type design. They already did that somewhat with the new PS Store.
That's the impression I have as well... which might not be good for MS if their machine requires more complex coding. It certainly didn't help Sony and the PS3.
No matter what they create, im sure it will be slick as hell. Vita OS managed to suprise me, works really great.
Karak
Member
Which will be obscured by the next rumor and the next and the next
PS2 for sure. MS tools will need to be up to their normal stellar level right away.
specialguy
Banned
I agree. Durango seems a little more interesting to me cause it's odd.
PS4 just seems straightforward and powerful, basically a video card on a stick, but a little boring.
Proelite
Member
Rampant speculation IMO.
Which will be obscured by the next rumor and the next and the next
S2 for sure.
Unless the next rumour is about the GPU ;P
Karak
Member
Hahahaha. Well yes. Everything comes back around.
specialguy
Banned
I dont think it will. Certainly nothing near the level of Cell/PS3.
An audio DSP you'd think is pretty transparent, and so is the ES/DRAM stuff AFAIK. 360 had EDRAM and it was supposed to be much easier to work with than PS3. You probably didn't need to worry about bandwidth as much on 360 because of it, so it made things actually simpler (but not being a programmer I dont know).
I dont know the other supposed custom hardware, and it may not be anything big even, so it's hard to comment there.
Main other thing is the tools/dev environment, which supposedly MS always has a big advantage in.
Karak
Member
Oddly one thing that interests me is many cores with full HSA and just overall what that means with the perceived extra level of accessibility. Both pro's and con's.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
That's the worry. I guess if anyone can make it work it's the software experts.
Do you think both will end up being simpler than the specs suggest?
Proelite
Member
That the consoles require complex coding.
And yes the "secre sauce" adds substantial performance for basically free. It's not fragrant able fpgas.
The PS3 and 360 were both considerably more difficult to program for than PCs when they released. The PS3 was just more difficult, and you can argue about why that is for as long as you want to, but there's a pretty solid body of historical evidence for it. What I know now of Durango leads me to believe that Microsoft will need to provide better tools than they ever have for developers to get what they want out of it, though I don't think there are as many hard barriers to accessing resources as the PS3 seemed to present. Orbis does seem more straightforward, which is honestly the right move for Sony, I think.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
That's good to hear. And the secret sauce is in addition to the eSRAM/Audio DSP?
Proelite
Member
Yep. Two more block.
Does one of them have something to do with.... tessellation/sub-division, better than its class of GPU could do?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Two! Damn......how many extras does this thing have. I can't wait to see the tech demo's that show this tech off.
shadowsdarknes
Member
The thread I'm talking about featured an image of the system schematic. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I remember two distinct RAM pools for each GPU. It was a unique solution because the weaker GPU is obviously for something else other than game development.
If someone could post that image it would spark interesting discussions because I feel like the only discussion that seems to be on point is the discussion of 4gb of GDDR5. I don't think we are discussing the possibility of dual GPUs in the PS4 enough.
The information I'm posting is from weeks ago and was a filed patent by Sony. I'm not just making this stuff up. However, I will say that the purpose of the patent is unknown. It could be for a computer, a TV, or the PS4. Considering it was filed before CES means it might be for the 4K TV they showed off during the presentation. Someone might uncover a comment that confirms this.
I'm speculating that its PS4 architecture until confirmation proves otherwise. Admittedly, I'm going on a hunch, but the schematic looked far too complex to be a high end laptop or TV. With that said, the only valid argument against my belief is that the schematic is for the new 4K TV because it seems to feature a Microsoft OS.