• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

White Fragility Leads to White Violence: Why Conversations w/ White Ppl Fall Apart

Status
Not open for further replies.
I absolutely did not, no.

edit: This part was the important: "and are creating myths or stereotypes that don't ring true for the vast majority."

Then there's no equivalence here because white fragility does in fact ring true for the majority, both of white americans and also across the pond (speaking from my own interactions and observations as a black, UK-based "european": err.. well.. not for long I guess).
 

TBiddy

Member
Rape culture is neither a myth, nor a stereotype. By definition.

But it doesn't hold true for the vast majority of men, that's my point. But we're steering off-topic now.

Then there's no equivalence here because white fragility does in fact ring true for the majority, both of white americans and also across the pond (speaking from my own interactions and observations as a black, UK-based "european": err.. well.. not for long I guess).

Anecdotally speaking, right? But as above - also off-topic. If anyone wishes to discuss whether or not generalizing entire ethnic groups is a good idea or not, I'm up for it. If they wish to discuss rape culture and anecdotal stories about how many whites suffer from white fragility, I'm not really interested.
 
Anecdotally speaking, right? But as above - also off-topic. If anyone wishes to discuss whether or not generalizing entire ethnic groups is a good idea or not, I'm up for it. If they wish to discuss rape culture and anecdotal stories about how many whites suffer from white fragility, I'm not really interested.

We don't need to discuss whether generalising whole ethnic groups is a bad thing because we all know that already...

We also don't need to discuss your inability to understand that "white fragility" does not infer a generalisation over a whole ethnic group either, so if you're "up for" dropping this tired debate so the rest of us can get on with "progress" then that would be fine too...
 
But it doesn't hold true for the vast majority of men, that's my point. But we're steering off-topic now.

If someone says "I'd be insulted if someone made up a myth or stereotype that doesn't apply to the majority" and you counter with "well then you should be insulted about X by that logic" when X is neither a myth nor stereotype in the first place, your counter point doesnt actually make any sense.
 

TBiddy

Member
We don't need to discuss whether generalising whole ethnic groups is a bad thing because we all know that already...

We also don't need to discuss your inability to understand that "white fragility" does not infer a generalisation over a whole ethnic group either, so if you're "up for" dropping this tired debate so the rest of us can get on with "progress" then that would be fine too...

Hey, noone is forcing you to reply to me, read my posts or stopping you from discussing something else in this thread. Feel free to ignore me, if you think I'm annoying because I have a different opinion from you.

If someone says "I'd be insulted if someone made up a myth or stereotype that doesn't apply to the majority" and you counter with "well then you should be insulted about X by that logic" when X is neither a myth nor stereotype in the first place, your counter point doesnt actually make any sense.

When "X" doesn't apply to the "vast majority" (as he wrote), my point definitely stands.
 
Hey, noone is forcing you to reply to me, read my posts or stopping you from discussing something else in this thread. Feel free to ignore me, if you think I'm annoying because I have a different opinion from you.



When "X" doesn't apply to the "vast majority" (as he wrote), my point definitely stands.

When X is a "myth or stereotype that doesn't apply to the vast majority" (as he actually wrote in its entirity, as opposed to what you're making out that he said by intentionally obfuscating full context), it quite clearly doesnt.
 

TBiddy

Member
When X is a myth or stereotype that doesn't apply to the vast majority as he actually wrote, it quite clearly doesnt.

You forgot the word "creating", which is quite important here. But, that said, if you wish to continue arguing with me about this, send me a PM.

I doubt I will ever agree with a lot of you, on what is OK to say about an entire ethnic group, and what isn't. Just as I try my best not to generalize about blacks, asians, women and what have you, all I ask for in return is to not be generalized by anyone else, solely based on my gender or skincolor. Some of you clearly feel different about this, and that's okay. We don't need to agree on everything. And I'd like to say that most of the posters in this thread have been nice to debate with. There's always an outlier, but I guess it's a lot better than elsewhere on the internet.
 
You forgot the word "creating", which is quite important here. But, that said, if you wish to continue arguing with me about this, send me a PM.

Yes, okay, creating. Very important to not be confused by social descriptors that just appeared in a dictionary, a blog or forum as an act of God and weren't created by someone somewhere....

Is it important because you say so or is there some explanation you'd wish to give as to why my point is invalidated simply by excluding this word?

Up till now, you have not actually had any point to make here.....because you seem to be having a lot of trouble forming one.
 

BBboy20

Member
One, of many reasons, why people have difficulty with "generalizations" in these types of conversations is because they do not consider themselves as having a group identity. White Americans is a group identity. It is a useful group identity for discussing shared/similar lived experiences, cultural features, power and privilege, relationship to systems, etc.

But a lot of people, not just White Americans, see their lives solely through an individualistic frame. They do not consider themselves as part of a group, a society, or even a culture. I have had students tell me that they reject the idea of there even being such thing as White culture. And yet, these same people who do not see themselves as part of a larger group or culture tend to have no problem seeing others through their group identity such as Asian Americans, African Americans, LGBTQ Americans, women as a group identity, etc.

The truth is we do have group identities and shared cultures. There is a way of looking beyond the individualistic frame that helps explain people's different relationships to power and privilege. But for some, the inability to see beyond an individualistic frame shuts down all conversation. They only see themselves as 1 person, not a member of a larger group of people with similar and shared features.
The fastest way to think this way is when you're on top of the food chain.
 
But it doesn't hold true for the vast majority of men, that's my point. But we're steering off-topic now.

Anecdotally speaking, right? But as above - also off-topic. If anyone wishes to discuss whether or not generalizing entire ethnic groups is a good idea or not, I'm up for it. If they wish to discuss rape culture and anecdotal stories about how many whites suffer from white fragility, I'm not really interested.
You forgot the word "creating", which is quite important here. But, that said, if you wish to continue arguing with me about this, send me a PM.

I doubt I will ever agree with a lot of you, on what is OK to say about an entire ethnic group, and what isn't. Just as I try my best not to generalize about blacks, asians, women and what have you, all I ask for in return is to not be generalized by anyone else, solely based on my gender or skincolor. Some of you clearly feel different about this, and that's okay. We don't need to agree on everything. And I'd like to say that most of the posters in this thread have been nice to debate with. There's always an outlier, but I guess it's a lot better than elsewhere on the internet.
You don't want to discuss white fragility or rape culture, you only want to discuss that generalisations are bad mmkay. Got it. Even though you can't or ever stop generalisations. You're asking for political correctness in language, but it's not possible. We're not in a colour-blind racially neutral sci fi future yet. Seems like a fruitless struggle, but hey it's your hill.
 

KonradLaw

Member
The fastest way to think this way is when you're on top of the food chain.

You should consider the alternative - when white people start to thing about their race as one of their main chararacteristis. This is starting to happen in western world - white identity is rising and you won't like the results of that.
 
I didn't dodge it. I didn't answer it, because I don't see the relevance.

You dont see the relevance of assumptions and generalizations in discussions of social constructs. But you don't want anyone to ever use them as soon as we are talking about a concept applied to white people. Really, now. You dont see the relevance in that question? 😒😒😒

Of course there will be assumptions, when you talk about a group of people. But that doesn't make it okay to generalize about an entire ethnic group, just because they happen to have a different skin color.

Jesus christ. You serious here. So how do you address this topic then? How do you talk about the real phenomena of white people getting defensive when discussions of race need to address the whole? Give me some tangible actual ways to discuss this then


When have I acted like that? I've never claimed that "not generalizing" will end racism.

Then why are you acting like this is such a road block to fruitful discussion. You are acting like this man. The whole thread you have acted like a concept is some entire indictment of white people. So I suppose whitr flight is not a real thing also? Or white supremacy. Because god forbid you use structures created by white people and actually tag the masses with responsibility. You want everyone to be a special little snowflake avoiding any concept that might bring discomfort. Do you or do you not think white people (some lol) as a whole get defensive when youtalk about racism and their place in it?

I'd love to have a discussion with you, but your posts are mostly a combination of strawmen and passive aggressiveness, and frankly, my time is too valuable for that.

So you are copping out. Of course you are.
 

TBiddy

Member
So you are copping out. Of course you are.

Nah. If you look at your posts, you'll see that you are way too agitated to have a meaningful discussion about anything. I'm getting too old for that shit. I'd have engaged in stuff like that when I was younger, but I honestly have better things to do than to argue with a passive aggressive stranger, trying his best to hide his anger, on the internet.
 
Nah. If you look at your posts, you'll see that you are way too agitated to have a meaningful discussion about anything. I'm getting too old for that shit. I'd have engaged in stuff like that when I was younger, but I honestly have better things to do than to argue with a passive aggressive stranger, trying his best to hide his anger, on the internet.
And yet here you are. The irony.
 
Nah. If you look at your posts, you'll see that you are way too agitated to have a meaningful discussion about anything. I'm getting too old for that shit. I'd have engaged in stuff like that when I was younger, but I honestly have better things to do than to argue with a passive aggressive stranger, trying his best to hide his anger, on the internet.

Blah blah blah I dont wanna actually talk about this because I got nothing to say. I just wanna lecture. Yeah I got you. You havent made any actual point here besides generalizations = bad but you havent proposed anything as an alternative. Again I wonder why?

Like I said, if you can't apply concepts to groups, how do you discuss social constructs? This is such an easy question and you just dont wanna answer it.

And yet here you are. The irony.

Like he isnt fooling anyone. He wants to discuss this, he just doesnt want any opposition.
 

Lime

Member
You should consider the alternative - when white people start to thing about their race as one of their main chararacteristis. This is starting to happen in western world - white identity is rising and you won't like the results of that.

That kinda sounds like a threat. You're advocating either accepting implicit white supremacy or the alternative 'explicit' white supremacy.
 
They probably wouldn't go because it's "not real science".
Or perhaps they had real life issues that prevented them from going?! I noticed this a lot in the OT forum, the looking down on people who didn't go to college, how can we have conversations about racial equality when some of you can't even respect those that went straight into the work force out of high school.

We need to stop looking down on people in general.....full stop.
 

Infinite

Member
Or perhaps they had real life issues that prevented them from going?! I noticed this a lot in the OT forum, the looking down on people who didn't go to college, how can we have conversations about racial equality when some of you can't even respect those that went straight into the work force out of high school.

We need to stop looking down on people in general.....full stop.
This has dick to do with anything
 
Or perhaps they had real life issues that prevented them from going?! I noticed this a lot in the OT forum, the looking down on people who didn't go to college, how can we have conversations about racial equality when some of you can't even respect those that went straight into the work force out of high school.

We need to stop looking down on people in general.....full stop.

...

Huh?

What does this have to do with anything you replied to?
 
As a white person, I want to do my part to improve race relations in this country but I have no idea how.
Just don't accept any racist behaviour. Even when scared, say something about it. Any little thing that might make people think about hat they said or did.
You don't even have to search for it. When a moment like that occurs, react.
 
This has dick to do with anything

...

Huh?

What does this have to do with anything you replied to?
Sure it does, someone said "I would pay some of these posters to go in a sociology class just to watch the reactions and I replied to the person that replied to that.

I'm just saying, shit...we can't look down on people who don't share the same education level as you, differences in this topic doesn't stem from education. It stems from racism
 
Or perhaps they had real life issues that prevented them from going?! I noticed this a lot in the OT forum, the looking down on people who didn't go to college, how can we have conversations about racial equality when some of you can't even respect those that went straight into the work force out of high school.

We need to stop looking down on people in general.....full stop.

wut

My comment was tongue-in-cheek and directed at the STEMlords who think anything other than 'hard science' doesn't qualify as 'real science.'

It was absolutely in no way targeting those who don't attend college.
 

Mr. RHC

Member
Then maybe a better approach is required? At the end of the day we're all humans.

Someone brought up racial fragility which is probably better than the usual piling up of stereotype explosives.

But don't even bother.

I fear this is way to hard a concept to even consider for some.
 
Ok, the one word responses is my queue to leave


I'll end my time in here with this.

White Fragility is a thing, and I feel like having conversations with people that show signs of it is a waste of your time. There are people out there that are not left leaning liberals that will listen to what you have to say. How you find them I don't know, but they are out there so don't give up looking.
 

Sunster

Member
lol I thought we were getting somewhere when I left this thread yesterday after some people made amazing informative posts. But I some see people are still not budging on this.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I would pay to see some posters in here in a sociology class. Heads would go supernova.

My head would go supernova if I were in the sociology class of one of these professors:

Whiteness and Farmers Markets: Performances, Perpetuations … Contestations?

Abstract:  Academics and activists highlight the potential for alternative agrifood movements to contribute to the evolving coalescence of justice and sustainability. This potential, however, is constrained by what scholars have identified as the prevalent whiteness of such movements. This paper uses ethnographic research at two northern California farmers markets to investigate how whiteness is performed and perpetuated through the movements’ discourses and practices. We found that many managers, vendors and customers hold notions of what farmers and community members should be that both reflect and inform an affluent, liberal habitus of whiteness. Although whiteness pervades these spaces, we have also witnessed individual discourses and acts of solidarity and anti-racism, as well as fledgling institutional efforts to contest white cultural dominance. We conclude by discussing the potential of farmers markets to create an anti-racist politics of food.
 
lol I thought we were getting somewhere when I left this thread yesterday after some people made amazing informative posts. But I some see people are still not budging on this.

What would getting somewhere entail? Every race discussion on Gaf proceeds in the exact same fashion.
 
Sure it does, someone said "I would pay some of these posters to go in a sociology class just to watch the reactions and I replied to the person that replied to that.

I'm just saying, shit...we can't look down on people who don't share the same education level as you, differences in this topic doesn't stem from education. It stems from racism

But that's not about looking down on people who don;t go to college it's about pointing out that a lot of folks (be they in college or not) who find this concept controversial and enraging would lose their shit in a solids sociology class...

I chose to believe that folks who don't go to college still have the mental ability to grasp social and systemic concepts if they so desire...
 

Sunster

Member
What would getting somewhere entail? Every race discussion on Gaf proceeds in the exact same fashion.

Well back a few pages ago yesterday afternoon, I left with that impression because it was basically just a whole page of great posts detailing white fragility and it's role as basically a roadblock to any discussion of race and oppression.

buuuuut I guess since then we've had a, Fragiles Strike Back scenario and we are back to square one. Disappointing.
 
I find it weird. When someone is arguing, "this term is hostile and designed to incite a reaction", do they think this term is actually ever used in your everyday discussion of race? Like I have never used "white fragility" in an actual conversation because the term doesn't actually serve a purpose in day to day conversation.

"It doesn't exist for that reason".

It exists to describe a result that often occurs when minorities address "white" people about racism and their place in that social construct. It describes a defensiveness and an aversion to wanting to talk about a subject that does not necessarily paint that person in a positive light. It isnt the trumpcard exodia to a conversation. I doubt many people actually use it in conversation. It has been coined as a term to describe a result so we can actually find ways of disarming it and getting to the root of why discussing race is so hard for some people.

And again, I'd like to add for people that think this is all about phrasing. It's not about phrasing. The reason why you get defensiveness when you talk about racism and the roles of the majority in it is because that bridges a link between them and something obviously negative. And there is an avoidance to that because people have built their whole worlds around being "fair" and being "a good person" and when concepts are brought forth that threaten that, they get defensive.

The wording in the discussion is not relevant. When you get down to it this happens no matter how you pose the discussion. That's the entire point of white fragility. It is going to occur no matter what because they thing that breeds disconfort is that racism is not gone and the white majority plays a part in that.

Shrug. I dunno why people are acting like white fragility is an actual talking point when I respond to some racist shit someone said. It is a result of the discussion itself.
 
Someone brought up racial fragility which is probably better than the usual piling up of stereotype explosives.

But don't even bother.

I fear this is way to hard a concept to even consider for some.

Why would racial fragility be better? It is inexact and completely muddies the concept... which I know that's the point because god forbid the powered have to even think for second about the socio-political and institutionally racist systems that empowered them in the first place, lest they feel "upset" or "uncomfortable"

Calling it racial fragility is just a way to disconnect the term from it's core function to challenge and describe the powered class, and make it "universal" and thus toothless.
 
Well back a few pages ago yesterday afternoon, I left with that impression because it was basically just a whole page of great posts detailing white fragility and it's role as basically a roadblock to any discussion of race and oppression.

buuuuut I guess since then we've had a, Fragiles Strike Back scenario and we are back to square one. Disappointing.

It's done intentionally by people who have no desire to have the status quo change.

I'm tired of giving people the benefit of the doubt and saying they're "ignorant". Either they like the status quo as it is and don't want it to change, or they don't care enough about the oppression of other groups to want to listen or change their thought processes.
 

Mr. RHC

Member
Why would racial fragility be better? It is inexact and completely muddies the concept... which I know that's the point because god forbid the powered have to even think for second about the socio-political and institutionally racist systems that empowered them in the first place, lest they feel "upset" or "uncomfortable"

Changes are that they feel upset and uncomfortable already. A loaded racial generalization is only going to make things worse.

I suppose if your philosophy hinges on making things worse to get things done you would do that.
 

Sunster

Member
Changes are that they feel upset and uncomfortable already. A loaded racial generalization is only going to make things worse.

I suppose if your philosophy hinges on making things worse to get things done you would do that.

If the term isn't directed at us specifically we won't change. I can guarantee you that.
 
Changes are that they feel upset and uncomfortable already. A loaded racial generalization is only going to make things worse.

I suppose if your philosophy hinges on making things worse to get things done you would do that.

How does talking about white fragility make things worse?

What's your solution? Why do you think using an inaccurate term like racial fragility is better?
 

Siegcram

Member
Sure it does, someone said "I would pay some of these posters to go in a sociology class just to watch the reactions and I replied to the person that replied to that.

I'm just saying, shit...we can't look down on people who don't share the same education level as you, differences in this topic doesn't stem from education. It stems from racism
Then ask me directly next time, and I'll gladly explain where you went wrong in your two-sentence journey. That would be mutually beneficial. At least more so than second-hand whining.

My head would go supernova if I were in the sociology class of one of these professors:

Whiteness and Farmers Markets: Performances, Perpetuations … Contestations?
Or whatever this is supposed to be.
 

Infinite

Member
Changes are that they feel upset and uncomfortable already. A loaded racial generalization is only going to make things worse.

I suppose if your philosophy hinges on making things worse to get things done you would do that.
Thats 100% on them
 

KonradLaw

Member
That kinda sounds like a threat. You're advocating either accepting implicit white supremacy or the alternative 'explicit' white supremacy.
No, I;m saying that race blindness is the best thing you can hope for when it comes to white people. If you push them to notice races more and more they will begin to notice not just other races and their problems, but they will also start to indentify with their own white race more and act in that race's interest.

Racial indentity politics inevitably creates feeling of "us vs them".
 

Skilletor

Member
No, I;m saying that race blindness is the best thing you can hope for when it comes to white people. If you push them to notice races more and more they will begin to notice not just other races and their problems, but they will also start to indentify with their own white race more and act in that race's interest.

Racial indentity politics inevitably creates feeling of "us vs them".

It's already us vs. them. It has since they brought us over in ships and sold us like cattle.

Trying to get white people to realize that so it can just be us is the entire point.

Everything you've said is already what is happening and has been happening.
 

dohdough

Member
Why would racial fragility be better? It is inexact and completely muddies the concept... which I know that's the point because god forbid the powered have to even think for second about the socio-political and institutionally racist systems that empowered them in the first place, lest they feel "upset" or "uncomfortable"

Calling it racial fragility is just a way to disconnect the term from it's core function to challenge and describe the powered class, and make it "universal" and thus toothless.

It's the same tactic when people say everyone can be racist. Very frustrating.

No, I;m saying that race blindness is the best thing you can hope for when it comes to white people. If you push them to notice races more and more they will begin to notice not just other races and their problems, but they will also start to indentify with their own white race more and act in that race's interest.

Racial indentity politics inevitably creates feeling of "us vs them".

What makes you think that it already isn't like that? That's the whole point of dogwhistles because prior to this election, it wasn't as socially acceptable to use overt language supporting white supremacy. People that voted for Trump and the assaults at his rallies didn't just pop up overnight because of this one demagogue; they've always been like this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom