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White Fragility Leads to White Violence: Why Conversations w/ White Ppl Fall Apart
- Thread starter Lime
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White fragility is real and needs to be discussed though. It's not meant to be disparaging.
The fact that it puts white people on the defensive is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy isn't it?
What do you think I mean? What do you think a riot is?
Skellig Gra
Member
Should come up with a new term then because to most people calling something fragile is an insult or at the very least has extreme negative connotations.
Anything that brings up the fact that even the lowest white man is starting from a position of privilege puts white people on the defensive. I'll admit i was no different when i first heard the concept "check your privilege." I sure as shit have rarely felt privileged in my life, but i don't think many people ever really feel privileged, same reason we get told "count your blessings," as we take good stuff we have for granted. It's hard to impart to white people that not getting harassed/shot by the police, not getting passed over for jobs based on our first name or appearance, not getting denied housing, etc are all blessings. Especially when you look at those things and say "that's how it's supposed to work."
To which the reply is "no shit, that's why racism is bad," but for some reason the line between "things not working like they should" and "we need to fix racism" is filled with excuses about crime or having a bad attitude or something.
Frozenprince
Banned
The fact that even calling it white fragility makes people uncomfortable or whatever is exactly the point.
Like.
What?
Like.
What?
Liljagare
Gold Member
We have alot of the same problems over here. When I grew up for example, I for the longest time thought that racism only existed in the USA, thanks to angled news and how everything was angled. We were told that American soldiers going over here had to be told that blacks in Europe have rights, and you couldn't treat them like back home if you met them.
So, yeah, it's a white systemic issue/error in modern society. Meanwhile, whilst I thought this, we safely ignored our Sami being dragged off to white school from their families to be taught how not to be Sami (indigenous folk group) in order for them to properly become good white citizens.. in modern times.
Because, well, they are kinda white looking so they can pass as such, if they only give up their identity and heritage.
White fragility prevents discussions on race relations from happening in the first place. You cannot have a serious discussion on race relations if the majority group is constantly deflecting and internalizing criticisms of the societal norms which cause the systemic racism present in our country.
The terms don't matter. Those who internalize criticisms will do so regardless of the lingo. The BLM anecdote in the OP is the perfect example of this.
It doesn't matter term is used or how nice we are. People will always be defensive because people are pushing back against the concept, which is real regardless of opinion.
Trust me, from the conversations I've had with people, it literally does not matter how nice or inviting you are, you still get pushback.
Sunster
Member
Gotdatmoney
Member
The same way they should come up with a slogan other than Black Lives Matter? The same way they should call it something other than Feminism?
The term is not the problem here.
International Iron Man
Banned
And I don't think they get how privileged their life is if the phrase "white fragility" causes so much discomfort in their lives.
Oh sorry that phrase upsets you. I'll be sure to be more mindful of that inbetween worrying about a cop wanting to kill me for existing while black.
"Coddling The Racist" does not and has never worked.
Because the moment you do and you start having real conversations, shit like this pops up.
That shit right there is the very fragility people have been talking about.
Ugh.
It may be, but isn't it essentially calling out racists with a racist comment?
That's what gets to me more than anything else. Call it out sure, but why call it out with something that continues the cycle of hatred? It does nothing to further the conversation.
Whities as soft as wet paper bags?
jk
This always happens when people get into the weeds about racism and privilege and bias. White people try to redefine certain terms and words for reasons. Racism becomes watered down, privilege loses meaning, bias isn't inherent, and now fragility is too insulting because..... we're fragile. Our egos can't take it.
This kind of high-level shit isn't meant for joe racist down the street to get woke by. I'm not going to present this at the next clan meeting and expect folks to suddenly understand the cyclical nature of discussions on racism and how it breeds psychological violence.
Smart folks should understand the nuance, people who don't need more reading or should be ignored for trying to steer discussion away from where it needs to be.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
"The victimized are responsible for their victimization so long as they don't treat their victimizers with respect and kindness" is the seed from which this concept grows, basically. "It's your fault we haven't made more progress because you're not asking us to progress as nicely as I would like."
Is your implied fragility an equal, or greater evil, than that of the oppression being called out?
(the answer is no)
Is your implied fragility an equal, or greater evil, than that of the oppression being called out?
(the answer is no)
Frozenprince
Banned
There is no "cycle of hatred". This isn't the oppression olympics, it's a parlance used to connotate a specific feeling by specific people when confronted with their inequity in their privilege.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
Honestly I think this is number 1.
Frozenprince
Banned
This.
People need to understand there IS NO RIGHT WAY.
You keep telling us "do it better" when we try "no not that way, EVEN BETTER".
A man knelt during a song and was threatened with death.
I'm sorry, there is no "better way" it's just an excuse to make people shut up because they are, yes, fragile and don't want to hear about the horrors and trials that other people live through on a day to day basis.
Gotdatmoney
Member
What is racist about white fragility?
International Iron Man
Banned
LOL @ "cycle of hatred"
Explain this cycle to me and explain when it has actually cycled around to white people being oppressed in any societal manner by black people ever.
Because I don't think you know how cycles work.
Sunster
Member
How to protect white people's feelings, the guide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPDpcYEdiOg
Liljagare
Gold Member
Now, this I have to disagree with, and this is a part of the issue.
If grandpa was a raging racist, chances are that the grandkids will be too.
HellforLeather
Member
As a phrase, its designed to be. Any sort of push back or disagreement in the concept well, thats just an example of "white fragility" in action, isnt it? Theres no room for disagreement, which is why its a total non-starter. Nobody who uses this term seriously is really interested in discussing anything. The conversation that they want is only in the scope of their uncharitably established framework.
The cycle is:
1) Downtrodden get fed up on getting stepped on
2) Downtrodden express dismay
3) Oppressors get hurt feelings, nothing changes
rinse repeat
You could call it "Candy Cane Rainbow" and white people would still make it more about their feelings
"Why sir I don't have a racist bone in my body THE VERY IDEA!"
Frozenprince
Banned
Remember your training:
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Why would you want to disagree with it?
if there's a disinterest in discussing anything, you'd think it'd come via the people so easily steered away that the mere suggestion members of their race are fragile when it comes to owning any fractional share of complicity in the way things are, is enough to shut them down.
What? Who the fuck are you to know what "nobody" wants to seriously discuss when you don't even understand the issue enough to get beyond the semantics of it.
Edit:
I don't mean to sound upset but I hate the presumption, you're being incredibly intellectually lazy.
"Moderate" white people think they're doing a good job with regard to black issues.
Nothing is truly changing for black americans.
They get feedback that what they're doing isn't working and moderate white messaging about black issues is still rooted in ignorance.
Moderate whites get pissy and throw a tantrum exposing the fuck out of their privileged belief that their help would have actually done anything whatsoever. Basically they're irritated because their "whitesplaining" of problems isn't taken to heart by their black colleagues.
Racism is in this country's dna. It was built on racism. To deny that fact and think you can help another group with systemic issues specifically instituted to disproportionately restrict and oppress the black populace of the US, is the very foundation of ignorance and lack of perspective.
Nothing is truly changing for black americans.
They get feedback that what they're doing isn't working and moderate white messaging about black issues is still rooted in ignorance.
Moderate whites get pissy and throw a tantrum exposing the fuck out of their privileged belief that their help would have actually done anything whatsoever. Basically they're irritated because their "whitesplaining" of problems isn't taken to heart by their black colleagues.
Racism is in this country's dna. It was built on racism. To deny that fact and think you can help another group with systemic issues specifically instituted to disproportionately restrict and oppress the black populace of the US, is the very foundation of ignorance and lack of perspective.
Gotdatmoney
Member
It's a term used to describe a phenomina. If you dont believe in it then all you have to do is provide some sources and reasoning amd then we can go from there. But I mean come on, aint nobody gonna do that because bitching about the term always inherently comes from trying to avoid talking about the overarching concept of racism.
I get that nobody likes generalizations but if white people want to be genuine allies in the fight against racism, sexism, homophobia, islamophobia, etc. they've got to understand what being a good ally means.
Like, I hate it when white people join a conversation about race or gender and immediately want to have it on their terms. "Oh, let's just skip all the important historical stuff that I don't like hearing and maybe point out a few places where your activists could've done a better job so that I don't have to be the only one feeling guilty and now let's pretend we're all starting from a clean slate so that I can fully participate". No, that's not how this shit works at all. Doesn't matter if the historical context is slavery and Jim Crow or a history of colonialism or the long tradition of asian stereotyping or anything else. If you want to be an ally in a fight that mostly concerns someone else you need to be ready to work on their terms. It also means shutting up every once in a while and making way for the actually afflicted to speak. Often, the best thing you can do is to just listen and believe someone when they speak from their own experience. No playing devil's advocate.
Perhaps most importantly, please understand that nobody needs you. I've found that many white people find that hard to hear but seriously, nobody is in any need of saving. I don't mean that disparagingly. Just that it's important to understand that you're joining an important conversation for your own sake, not ours. We are perfectly capable having these conversations on our own.
Like, I hate it when white people join a conversation about race or gender and immediately want to have it on their terms. "Oh, let's just skip all the important historical stuff that I don't like hearing and maybe point out a few places where your activists could've done a better job so that I don't have to be the only one feeling guilty and now let's pretend we're all starting from a clean slate so that I can fully participate". No, that's not how this shit works at all. Doesn't matter if the historical context is slavery and Jim Crow or a history of colonialism or the long tradition of asian stereotyping or anything else. If you want to be an ally in a fight that mostly concerns someone else you need to be ready to work on their terms. It also means shutting up every once in a while and making way for the actually afflicted to speak. Often, the best thing you can do is to just listen and believe someone when they speak from their own experience. No playing devil's advocate.
Perhaps most importantly, please understand that nobody needs you. I've found that many white people find that hard to hear but seriously, nobody is in any need of saving. I don't mean that disparagingly. Just that it's important to understand that you're joining an important conversation for your own sake, not ours. We are perfectly capable having these conversations on our own.
Frozenprince
Banned
I mean I don't think there is much to discuss about "stop killing us" but apparently a rather large cross-section of america thinks "Black Lives Matter" is open for debate.
Liljagare
Gold Member
Or ignored into silence.
Essentially, yes.
Just seeing if you felt like clarifying what you meant by riot. Who would the violence be directed at?
Frozenprince
Banned
Don't.
Specifically when it comes to the fragility of white ego, there is a way for white allies to gently massage messages of equality into other white people, but to do that they have to understand just how delicate the balance between guilt and privilege is.
Skellig Gra
Member
I hear you, there is no way to frame this that a racist person is going to accept but then doesn't this just go back to "preaching to the choir" and not accomplishing anything?
Gotdatmoney
Member
The funny thing is when I saw him use the word riot I knew someone would wanna go down this path. As though that was the point of the post.
See my above post.
Like, as a white dude I started off my education fragile as fuck. I was taken aback by ideas of inherent bias and implicit racism, the idea that I was participating in white supremacy just by my very existence. Some people could bounce off from there because they don't want to hurt their egos and I think understanding white fragility allows white allies to help those people along. Not by telling them "stop being so fragile" but by being more gentle and understanding of their reactions cause it's to be expected.
Someone recoiling because of their white fragility doesn't make them more or less racist than any other white person, it just means they need extra prodding in the right direction.
Most importantly though this shouldn't be on minorities to coddle these folk.
International Iron Man
Banned
God forbid white people have to discuss the oppression they inflict on minorities on someone else's terms.
Sunster
Member
Discussions like this do accomplish things. Such as getting white people to stop being offended when they are inevitably brought up in talks of race.
Who do you think has it coming?
Frozenprince
Banned
Can't handle not being the ones to dictate everything about anything.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It only "doesn't accomplish anything" if the standards for accomplishment are being set by stubborn white people who will only agree to progress on their terms and their terms alone, terms that demand the absolving of their (barely) guilty conscience before any work can be done.
Basically "nothing will get done if you keep doing it that way" only works as an assessment if you're inherently refusing to do anything on your end of the deal.
If what's stopping you from doing anything on your part is that you're simply too offended by the idea of "white fragility" even minutely applying specifically to you to take that step forward to change things about your day-to-day life for the positive, then "nothing will get done" because you're not fuckin' doing anything.
AlimNassor
Banned
Racists aren't going to care. All you can do with them is shun and isolate them. White fragility is real and being mean is really the only way to get through. I've learned online people are NEVER willing to discuss White Privilege or Racial issues. Irl though sometimes being emotional and a dick can get results.
It's not preaching to the choir because there are plenty of people out there who would not consider themselves racist but still fall into the fragility traps. This thread is a good example, considering GAF is mostly liberal/progressive and yet we've had numerous posts exemplifying white fragility.
what choir?
Lil'DigiOp
Member
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