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Windows 10's Game Mode exclusive to UWP

ElFly

Member
Many of MS projects are rife with in-fighting and internal one-upmanship from differing viewpoints. There is very much an "old guard" at MS who understand that Windows is a continuum and that that is a huge part of its success, and there is an "we should be Apple" contingent who don't give a fuck about existing customers because they expect everyone to just blind buy every year regardless.

I can't source it, but I read a fascinating anecdote once about one of the engineers on... I want to say Win98 who when they discovered that Sim City didn't run on it because it had used very specific Win95 hacks went and implemented specific "If app is Sim City do this..." code purely because of the popularity of Sim City and the expectation that it should work on the next version of Windows.
I literally cannot imagine that anecdote being told about modern Microsoft.

most of those anecdotes come from Raymond Chen's blog, the old new thing

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/

tho the Sim City one comes from a Joel Spolsky blog

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost-the-api-war/

where he agrees with you. tho it is 12 years old so dunno if things have reverted. but W10 being free for so many people and the win store makes me think they haven't
 

Crayon

Member
Not "defending anything Microsoft does", in fact if you search my name and "Microsoft" on these forums you'll find a lot of rather acerbic posts regarding decisions they have made in the past (Esp. at W10 launch), I *still* don't have an Xbox One, in fact if you go back to my Xbox One pre and post-launch posts you'd have me down as an anti-MS, PS4-loving zealot :p

However whilst being acidic and anti-MS, I suffered a small amount of cognitive dissonance when confronted with some of the moves they seemed to be making, those moves were in contradiction to my beliefs of what I thought they would do.

So I did my research, stopped ranting without knowing what I was talking about and started watching and listening to what they are doing and saying with a filter of "maybe I don't fucking know everything because of my own bias" instead.

You know what I found, and what has changed and is changing?

Microsoft, and, as a hobbiest dev, my respect for a lot of the moves they are making towards openness (Just look at the .Net Core initiative, go look at Microsofts github presense, look at how they handled the Xamarin acquisition), MS are embracing the OSS mindset,not to embrace, extend and extinguish as they had in the past, but actually just embracing it, period. Even if die-hard haters don't recognise it yet.

Developing UWP applications is fun for me, I like the model's potential, even if I'm not 100% happy where it is now, but the changes they have make speak to an inertia that goes against the MS-must-control-all bias I viewed everything through.

Unlike others I'm willing to give credit where it is due and re-examine my own biases.

It's refreshing.

Really touching story there.
 

Zaph

Member
MS are solving a problem they have. It's not a problem that consumers have. And their solution takes away from consumers. So why should they be happy about this?

Pretty much sums up UWP

MS is asking us to bear with them while they build something that suits them and may eventually bring parity with what consumers already have. MS regularly forgets their products exist to serve the consumer, not us working around what they want to build.
 

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
So basically what you are saying is:

In UWP, one of the very best things about PC gaming -- third parties independently improving a large existing game library -- is not going to happen.


I think it's good of you to be open about that. I hope it also explains to some people why I fucking hate it -- it has nothing to do with any sort of company fanboyism (or the opposite).
It's purely because I like PC gaming for what makes it PC gaming.

It's a tradeoff I'm willing to make, it's one you are not and that is fine.

It's not company fanboyism either, I don't even own an Xbox, and you can't count the number of MS game titles I own on on even one hand, too many fingers. :p

(Go find a single post from me about an MS published game on this forum, or even MS platform, lets hear how much enthusiasm I have expressed here for their games shall we?, before throwing out the fanboy line...)

But a malware-free environment and future?, now that is something I personally would applaud.
 

Durante

Member
And, there are license terms that you have to agree if you want to use it:

https://cygwin.com/licensing.html

For example, by using this tool you are agreeing that any binary you make out of it has to be made open source. Pretty wild, I know.
Lol, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

If I was using and modifying the GCC source, and distribute that modified GCC (or program based on its source) then I'd also have to distribute the source for that.

To use a GCC binary to compile my own programs, I have to do absolutely no such thing.

And that's why I never had to agree to any EULAs when installing and using it.
 

Kareha

Member
But a malware-free environment and future?, now that is something I personally would applaud.

Nothing is ever malware-free, people always find a way. Do you know how to stay malware-free, don't click links that looks suspect. I've used that rule and so far, no malware.
 
And, there are license terms that you have to agree if you want to use it:

https://cygwin.com/licensing.html

For example, by using this tool you are agreeing that any binary you make out of it has to be made open source. Pretty wild, I know.

I'm pretty sure the GPL doesn't require all products made with GPL programs to be open source, just derivative programs/ones that use GPL licensed code. Cygwin was just used to run the compiler that was used(gcc). Durante's exe doesn't have to actually include anything from either program.
 

nynt9

Member
Seems like Microsoft have really embraced PC gaming. In fact, they've started to extend PC gaming. I wonder what could come next?!
 

FyreWulff

Member
I think every OS is trending towards heavy sandboxing - even the consumer-oriented Linux flavors - just the nature of where the industry is going. However, I think interop can also happen at the same time. We just have to get OSdevs to add more ways to traverse the sandbox(es). You can still do injections and other crap like that with a sandbox, but injections and so on and so forth are built off decades of toolchains and work and a kitchen drawer of utilities written against win32 for multiple decades. UWP is like what, a year into actual full on deployments?

Personally I like the idea of programs being written with the assumption of a sandbox for future compatibility and also because you can lie like a motherfucker to those programs since they'll assume they're in a sandbox for perpetuity.

But I've also been of the opinion that people that truly want to own their computer should be on a *nix and not hoping Windows will play ball. And even then we're stuck with fucking Microsoft signing the fucking bootloader for Ubuntu because they already control Secureboot.
 

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
My computing environment is malware-free without being feature- and modding-free. Personal responsibility.

You being malware-free and that personal responsibility does not stop you being affected by malware, DDoS's to services from botnets is a thing.

And "personal responsibility" doesn't scale.

BTW, Still waiting on this:

(Go find a single post from me about an MS published game on this forum, or even MS platform, lets hear how much enthusiasm I have expressed here for their games shall we?, before throwing out the fanboy line...)
 

Durante

Member
I never said you were a fanboy, so I don't know what you are waiting for.

You already said yourself that you are willing to give up central tenants of PC gaming for UWP, there's little left to discuss.
 

nynt9

Member
I think every OS is trending towards heavy sandboxing - even the consumer-oriented Linux flavors - just the nature of where the industry is going. However, I think interop can also happen at the same time. We just have to get OSdevs to add more ways to traverse the sandbox(es). You can still do injections and other crap like that with a sandbox, but injections and so on and so forth are built off decades of toolchains and work and a kitchen drawer of utilities written against win32 for multiple decades. UWP is like what, a year into actual full on deployments?

Personally I like the idea of programs being written with the assumption of a sandbox for future compatibility and also because you can lie like a motherfucker to those programs since they'll assume they're in a sandbox for perpetuity.

I like this idea. I'm not inherently against sandboxing, I'm against sandboxing that takes away features we have. Perhaps we can run our injectors from within the same sandbox, or like you said, have better inter-sandbox communication. It's just that MS's solution doesn't seem to allow that.
 
Lol, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

If I was using and modifying the GCC source, and distribute that modified GCC (or program based on its source) then I'd also have to distribute the source for that.

To use a GCC binary to compile my own programs, I have to do absolutely no such thing.

And that's why I never had to agree to any EULAs when installing and using it.

Ok, I misread the license agreements, but there is a license agreement to be accepted, even if license agreement gives you permission to do whatever you want with the binary you created.

That's btw, the same terms the Microsoft own open source compiler has.

I'm pretty sure the GPL doesn't require all products made with GPL programs to be open source, just derivative programs/ones that use GPL licensed code. Cygwin was just used to run the compiler that was used(gcc). Durante's exe doesn't have to actually include anything from either program.

Yeah, I misread, but like I said, the license agreements to Ms open source compiler are the same: http://roslyn.codeplex.com/license

You can modify, but if you distribute the modified binary it has to be made open source, and you are free to use whatever licensing terms for anything you created with it.

So how is uwp more restricted than win32 here?

Win32 is well known and understood to the point of being clean room reverse engineered and capable of being compiled to by third parties that MS has literally no sway or mandate over.

But you still have to agree to the person who did all the work licensing terms.

For uwp there's not even the need to reverse engineer anything, they open sourced the damn compiler for you to use and modify.
 
But a malware-free environment and future?, now that is something I personally would applaud.

And also something that is impossible without locking down a system in significant ways that basically defeat the point of having a PC in the first place. Especially eliminating backwards compatibility.

It's not going to happen, and the way MS is pushing it is going to be fiercely resisted by many devs and consumers alike, and it's just going to create yet another competing 'standard' ala the XKCD example and thus end up being a lot of work but with the actual intended benefits not materialising.

Fuck, it'll still be pointless to bother with when billions of "internet of things" devices are being used as botnet devices because their creators don't give two shits about security.
 

ElFly

Member
botnets are going to come more and more from non-PCs so giving up control over your computer because 'botnets and DDOSs are a thing' is myopic
 
It's a tradeoff I'm willing to make, it's one you are not and that is fine.

It's not company fanboyism either, I don't even own an Xbox, and you can't count the number of MS game titles I own on on even one hand, too many fingers. :p

(Go find a single post from me about an MS published game on this forum, or even MS platform, lets hear how much enthusiasm I have expressed here for their games shall we?, before throwing out the fanboy line...)

But a malware-free environment and future?, now that is something I personally would applaud.
I still can't comprehend how that's a good trade-off. For no malware a user just has to take notice where they're downloading stuff. Taking away the ability of a user to modify a software that's on their machine because someone somewhere may have done something malicious to it just doesn't make sense to me. Just take a look at Durante's tags, all there games (and more) that would be a worse experience for everyone because some company decided their users can't be trusted.
 

Durante

Member
Actually, there is one more thing to discuss:
You being malware-free and that personal responsibility does not stop you being affected by malware, DDoS's to services from botnets is a thing.
Well, the 30 minutes last year that Steam was down due to a DDOS attack sure makes up for the 500 hours I used and enjoyed the Steam controller and PC game mods.

No wait.
It doesn't.
 

10k

Banned
Why did people expect anything different? Windows 10 game mode being locked to the UWP seemed like a given.
 
Seems like Microsoft have really embraced PC gaming. In fact, they've started to extend PC gaming. I wonder what could come next?!

Lolol, good. Yeah, MS is under different management now, but they've acted to the detriment of developer and end-user freedom for a long ass time, and I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. I want nothing to do with MS, and the less I have to use Windows or technologies exclusive to it in the future, the better.
 

Zedox

Member
It's funny when you read this thread and people still looking at Game Mode like it's not a dev tool...some people don't read articles...
 

Caayn

Member
I think that we can safely say that the entire UWP/Store discussion has boiled down to "don't like what I don't like", ad infinitum.
 
How are people getting bitter over a pointless application that no one will use? Fellow people with normal pc's are you really even considering using this? I sure as fuck won't touch it.
 

Durante

Member
I think that we can safely say that the entire UWP/Store discussion has boiled down to "don't like what I don't like", ad infinitum.
Actually, we just got confirmation from a UWP fan that it, by design (not by some "missing feature" or "wait for build"), prevents features used and enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of PC gamers.

That's progress.

Im trying but failing to follow this thread.

The issue people have is with UWP, W10, the W10 store or MS in general?
UWP.

I don't have anything against shitty stores, I happily buy from Uplay.
 

No_Style

Member
I still can't comprehend how that's a good trade-off. For no malware a user just has to take notice where they're downloading stuff. Taking away the ability of a user to modify a software that's on their machine because someone somewhere may have done something malicious to it just doesn't make sense to me. Just take a look at Durante's tags, all there games (and more) that would be a worse experience for everyone because some company decided their users can't be trusted.

I'm certain people questioned the need for speed limits and other limiting rules through the ages when they were imposed. It's a tough reality but users/people cannot be trusted and laws/rules were fabricated to address the lowest common denominator. It's applicable everywhere. You and I may be able to navigate the internet without infesting our computers but we're the minority.
 
botnets are going to come more and more from non-PCs so giving up control over your computer because 'botnets and DDOSs are a thing' is myopic

Yeah, PCs are rapidly becoming a drop in the bucket in terms of botnets. At least OS vendors already provide some security built-in for PCs, but the creators of stuff like "internet of things" devices simply don't bother with any kind of meaningful security, and likely won't unless there's the risk of damaged reputations for not changing their tune (unlikely at this stage) or unless they're forced to via legislation.

The ship has already sailed, UWP won't solve shit.
 

RionaaM

Unconfirmed Member
I think that we can safely say that the entire UWP/Store discussion has boiled down to "don't like what I don't like", ad infinitum.
On the contrary, it's more about the "Give MS another chance, Steam was the same, nobody uses mods anyway" arguments, with no regards to the reasons why many people dislike the very concept of UWAs.

Guess I'll have to wait for Build...
 

pastrami

Member
I'm certain people questioned the need for speed limits and other limiting rules through the ages when they were imposed. It's a tough reality but users/people cannot be trusted and laws/rules were fabricated to address the lowest common denominator. It's applicable everywhere. You and I may be able to navigate the internet without infesting our computers but we're the minority.

That's not a good analogy. What you are essentially arguing for are speed limiters to be installed on cars. Because, you know, people can't be trusted to not go over the speed limit.
 
And also something that is impossible without locking down a system in significant ways that basically defeat the point of having a PC in the first place. Especially eliminating backwards compatibility.
Even if we assume that they want to fully lock users to a sand box, they will always have a simple setting that you can activate that let's you run whatever you want in your pc.

Why? Because they have to. They need developers developing on windows and any attempt to block that is a death sentence to windows.

You could say they locking by default to secure or trusted apps could be setting up a death bed to them, but there's no way they could put this off without first ensuring developers would be able to easily certify their applications (and of course that means Ms *not* being the solely certifier available by default) so it runs by default on all users.

It's not going to happen, and the way MS is pushing it is going to be fiercely resisted by many devs and consumers alike, and it's just going to create yet another competing 'standard' ala the XKCD example and thus end up being a lot of work but with the actual intended benefits not materialising.
How exactly they are pushing towards locking everything down?

Putting a developer mode on windows phone and xbox, both usually locked down platforms so anyone can freely develop, test or even install unsigned applications from 3rd party sources without having to break those systems security?
 

aeolist

Banned
Do those "95% of all gamers" use and enjoy any of the myriad of Steam features which are only possible because it injects itself into games?


Fuck that shit.

Or, well, do whatever you want with "apps", I'll continue to run programs.

sandboxing is fine, it's more prevalent these days even in linux. it doesn't preclude openness.

the problem is microsoft's model take control away from the user. i should be able to do whatever i want with the programs loaded on my PC, there's no good security reason to disallow this and the way they're doing it is clearly more about extracting revenue and maintaining control than curation and safety.
 

Flui111

Banned
It's a tradeoff I'm willing to make, it's one you are not and that is fine.

It's not company fanboyism either, I don't even own an Xbox, and you can't count the number of MS game titles I own on on even one hand, too many fingers. :p

(Go find a single post from me about an MS published game on this forum, or even MS platform, lets hear how much enthusiasm I have expressed here for their games shall we?, before throwing out the fanboy line...)

But a malware-free environment and future?, now that is something I personally would applaud.

So something that YOU want but most other's don't. You sounding like Phil Spencer's twin with that malware free environment, keylogger crap. Those that game on PC probably already know how to keep their systems malware free.

You have primarily PC gamers telling you how the system is and how MS won't overcome unless they change and you still stick to your same rhetoric
 

LordRaptor

Member
But you still have to agree to the person who did all the work licensing terms.

For uwp there's not even the need to reverse engineer anything, they open sourced the damn compiler for you to use and modify.

I have already linked in this very topic the exact EULA that is required to develop for UWA, and it is applicable just by downloading that required code and I have already explained how MSs boiler plate EULAs negatively affect developers with regards to redistribution of required libraries for end user software (you can't) and the inherent politicising of any derived software by being bound to US Customs who have - let's never forget - declared certain numbers to be illegal.

"Open Source" isn't some magical shield that automatically deflects all criticism, it literally just means you can see what a program does. The fact you're running the old MS playbook on the GPL ("But the GPL infects all of your work and adds it to the collective!") means I suspect that you are not discussing this from a position of good faith.

Perhaps you would like to assure readers that at least MS provided code is indemnified against all those lawsuits against end users of other 'stolen' code like Linux that are just waiting in the wings to materialise too.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
As I said before, not everything under a sandbox model can be opened up, and expectation that it would be is unrealistic without severe compromisation on the whole point of sandboxing.

When 95% of the concerns are met and flexibility increases, the majority of devs will be supportive, but unchecked interop? - Not going to happen, and there IS a proportion of the development community that understand this and understand why.

Moddability can be supported, but the original devs have to support it, Overlays will be supported, UWP doesn't require the store any more, these are improvements, but expecting the new model to stick to the old models flaws is unrealistic.

The same "features" and freedom that allow interop of the type you talk about, are also a serious vector for malware, so it is a hole that will be closed sooner or later, one way or another.

I think it is funny Apple opened their macOS API's to non sandboxed Apps at the same time MS is trying to move in the whole opposite direction ;).
 
It's a tradeoff I'm willing to make, it's one you are not and that is fine.

It's not company fanboyism either, I don't even own an Xbox, and you can't count the number of MS game titles I own on on even one hand, too many fingers. :p

(Go find a single post from me about an MS published game on this forum, or even MS platform, lets hear how much enthusiasm I have expressed here for their games shall we?, before throwing out the fanboy line...)

But a malware-free environment and future?, now that is something I personally would applaud.

Yep, UWP is garbo. Pack it up folks.
 

cakely

Member
It's funny when you read this thread and people still looking at Game Mode like it's not a dev tool...some people don't read articles...

Now, wait a minute ... I read both articles, and they talk about "Game Mode Enabled" games on Windows 10.

That still implies that there will be games written for Windows 10 that will benefit from Game Mode. Game Mode isn't just a dev tool, and it doesn't exist just to ensure portability between Xbox One, Xbox Scorpio and Windows 10.

My guess (and it's just a guess) is that Game Mode will actually launch an "Exclusive OS" VM on the gaming PC. This VM will be very close or identical to the VM currently being run on the Xbox One hypervisor whenever a game launches. That would certainly account for all of the freed resources that have been mentioned in these articles.
 

Zedox

Member
Now, wait a minute ... I read both articles, and they talk about "Game Mode Enabled" games on Windows 10.

That still implies that there will be games written for Windows 10 that will benefit from Game Mode. Game Mode isn't just a dev tool, and it doesn't exist just to ensure portability between Xbox One, Xbox Scorpio and Windows 10.

My guess (and it's just a guess) is that Game Mode will actually launch an "Exclusive OS" VM on the gaming PC. This VM will be very close or identical to the VM currently being run on the Xbox One hypervisor whenever a game launches. That would certainly account for all of the freed resources that have been mentioned in these articles.

Per the article...
"Game Mode" is specifically a feature for Universal Windows Platform game development for games in the Windows 10 ecosystem

Game Mode, it appears, is a feature that streamlines variations between Xbox consoles and PCs, making sure as many Windows 10 systems as possible can run games to the standards set by the Xbox One and Project Scorpio.

Our information states that games developed for the Windows 10, Xbox One, and Project Scorpio ecosystem specifically need to be "Game Mode enabled" Universal Windows Apps (UWA). This means that developers using Game Mode enabled UWP today to build games for Xbox One at 900-1080p and up to 4K for Windows 10 PCs are ready to deploy those games for Project Scorpio, with over 95% of the existing project code intact.

Definitely a feature used for game development, thus dev-tool.

Now, I'm not saying that it couldn't be more, but going on the information from the latest article... it seems to be only a dev tool.
 

Zedox

Member
So I was incorrect in my last post. Game Mode does give the game top priority. In the latest Insider Preview it shows it in the settings. Glad we have actual confirmation of what it is. :)
(I have no problem being wrong, I go by what the articles give...I like more concrete info)


gamemode-1.jpg
 

cakely

Member
So I was incorrect in my last post. Game Mode does give the game top priority. In the latest Insider Preview it shows it in the settings. Glad we have actual confirmation of what it is. :)
(I have no problem being wrong, I go by what the articles give...I like more concrete info)


gamemode-1.jpg

Nice, I had the feeling that that's how Game Mode would be used.

My prediction about it running on a VM is probably wrong, though.

EDIT: Also, now that Game Mode is confirmed to work for Win32 apps, I am no longer disappointed. That's good news.
 
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