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XBOX Scorpio: DX12 Built Directly Into GPU

J

Jrs3000

Member
hope said:
Words cannot express how horrible a mistake Microsoft made by revealing the hardware specifications for Scorpio at E3 '16. What on earth were they thinking? Sony intentionally remained silent about the final Pro specifications because they didn't want to reveal all their cards. They said it - Scorpio is not a next gen console. Their greatest priority, i.e., Microsoft and Sony would have been to ensure that their customer bases adopt Scorpio and Pro smoothly. By revealing the specifications and launch timeframe for Scorpio, Microsoft gave Sony the following advantages:
 
1) A frame of reference to work with which Sony capitalized on by underspec'ing the Pro. Majority of console titles are cross-platform. If cross-platform developers wish to maintain healthy sales across both console platforms, then they will have no choice but to tailor games with comparable IQ. Speaking of IQ, the human eye can't really discern the difference between native 4K and checkerboard rendered 4K. Before they revealed the final specifications for Scorpio, Microsoft only lost ground when it came to exclusives. They didn't really have an advantage with Scorpio. But because they revealed the specifications of Scorpio, they unintentionally gave Sony an advantage who cheekily used the concept of least common denominator to set the standard for 4K-capable console h/w specification.
2) By revealing the launch timeframe for Scorpio, Microsoft gave Sony a window of opportunity to ramp up production of the Pro. By launching earlier, Sony had sufficient time to ensure that a healthy portion of their existing customer base would smoothly transition over to the Pro by the time Scorpio launched.
 
Still think i'm wrong?
 
The writing is all there on the wall! In fact, it has been there since Sony announced the Pro in September 2016. Why do you think Microsoft tried convincing everyone that Scorpio was still more powerful than the PS4 Pro when we didn't need to be reminded in the first place? The day Sony announced the Pro was when Microsoft started sh***ing bricks by the truckload. Moreover, Leadbetter from DF didn't even seem excited today. Everybody who was looking forward to the DF analysis of Scorpio were expecting gameplay videos. We already know what to expect from the h/w. Instead, DF reported the same news about the h/w, no different from last year. Everybody was expecting FM7 and instead we were treated to a single screenshot of a souped up version of FM6 running on Scorpio! WTF!!!  :ko:
 
Want more indirect proof?
 
Check out the disassembly tutorials of the PS4 Slim and the Pro on iFixit. The quality of the components used to manufacture the PS4 Slim and PS4 Pro pass QC but are not as good as Xbox One S. This tells me that Sony has sacrificed QC to launch the PS4 Slim and the Pro as early as possible.

Stupid MS.For 499 only an Idiot Buys this when Pro is available far cheaper.
Click to expand...

The salt is strong with this one....
 
D

Delusibeta

Banned
DocSeuss said:
If you read the articles: the Xbox can push native 4K (not checkerboard) in one of the most demanding games on the system, Forza, with all settings maxed, and still have like 30% extra headroom.

If the Xbox One was a Geo Metro, the PS4 was a Honda Civic, and the Pro was a Honda Accord, the Scorpio is a Dodge Viper.
Click to expand...
Bolded is false. Forza 6 isn't even the most demanding Forza game.
 
ISee

ISee

Member
Delusibeta said:
Bolded is false. Forza 6 isn't even the most demanding Forza game.
Click to expand...

That's a good point. Back when DF tested forza 6 apex on PC even a 970 (~3.7 tflops) was able to handle it on pc ultra settings at 2560x1440. They had to set msaa to 8x which is ludicrous high and exztemly taxing to make it drop in some instances. Nobody ever doubted that Scorpio would be able to push forza 6 to 4k on xbox one settings in the first place.
 
S

Space_nut

Member
ISee said:
That's a good point. Back when DF tested forza 6 apex on PC even a 970 (~3.7 tflops) was able to handle it on pc ultra settings at 2560x1440. They had to set msaa to 8x which is ludicrous high and exztemly taxing to make it drop in some instances. Nobody ever doubted that Scorpio would be able to push forza 6 to 4k on xbox one settings in the first place.
Click to expand...

It's using all new 4K assets with Dynamic weather that isn't found in Forza 6

So yea
 
ISee

ISee

Member
Space_nut said:
It's using all new 4K assets with Dynamic weather that isn't found in Forza 6

So yea
Click to expand...

There is no rainy weather in the only screen shot that we have so there isn't really an impact here. And please explain what 4k assets are, just out of curiosity. Because I guarantee you, that's not impacting performance as dramatically as using 8xmsaa and pc ultra settings. It isn't even close. You are just using a fency word for improved textures with a 4k glued on to it and the you compare it to something entirely different.
 
VincentMatts

VincentMatts

Member
ISee said:
There is no rainy weather in the only screen shot that we have so there isn't really an impact here. And please explain what 4k assets are, just out of curiosity. Because I guarantee you, that's not impacting performance performance as dramatically as using 8xmsaa and pc ultra settings. It isn't even close.
Click to expand...

DF are the ones that need to explain it, theyre the ones who said it.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...pio-is-console-hardware-pushed-to-a-new-level

From what I've seen so far, there is some evidence that Scorpio's true 4K performance could pose a challenge to the likes of Nvidia's GTX 1070 and AMD's Fury X-class hardware. I've seen Microsoft's new console running a Forza Motorsport 6-level experience locked to 4K60 on the equivalent to PC's ultra settings - cranking up the quality presets to obscene levels was one of the first things developer Turn 10 did when confronted with the sheer amount of headroom it had left after a straight Xbox One port. Out of interest, we tested Forza 6 Apex with similar settings at 4K on GTX 1060, 1070 and 1080. Frames were dropped on GTX 1060 (and a lot of them when wet weather conditions kicked in), while GTX 1070 held firm with only the most intense wet weather conditions causing performance dips. Only GTX 1080 held completely solid in all test cases. It's only one data point, and the extent to which the code is comparable at all is debatable, but it certainly doesn't harm Scorpio's credentials: Forza 6 Apex received plenty of praise for the quality of its PC port.
 
S

Space_nut

Member
ISee said:
There is no rainy weather in the only screen shot that we have so there isn't really an impact here. And please explain what 4k assets are, just out of curiosity. Because I guarantee you, that's not impacting performance as dramatically as using 8xmsaa and pc ultra settings. It isn't even close. You are just using a fency word for improved textures with a 4k glued on to it and the you compare it to something entirely different.
Click to expand...

Read the article

Running textures that are 4k res instead of some low res you see a lot in games is huge on memory and bandwidth usage. This also greatly impacts transpancies and any samples used for effects.
 
W

Widge

Member
Delusibeta said:
Bolded is false. Forza 6 isn't even the most demanding Forza game.
Click to expand...

Yeah if it was Forza Horizon or something open world, then maybe. GTsport is running at 4k60. Closed up Circuit racers are the easiest to get up looking fast and fresh, very easy to control.
 
E

EGM1966

Member
DocSeuss said:
If you read the articles: the Xbox can push native 4K (not checkerboard) in one of the most demanding games on the system, Forza, with all settings maxed, and still have like 30% extra headroom.

If the Xbox One was a Geo Metro, the PS4 was a Honda Civic, and the Pro was a Honda Accord, the Scorpio is a Dodge Viper.
Click to expand...
This is almost as hilarious as you're comment on international markets vs US in NPD thread.

It's also nearly as wrong too.

There's no evidence Forza is that demanding looking at PC versions and you're clearly trying to make Scorpio feel like it's way, way ahead which isn't the case. It's decently more powerful but not an order of magnitude so.

Can't we just enjoy its good specs for what they are without hyperbole?
 
B

btags

Member
I would like someone who is intimately acquainted with hardware design and rendering to actually explain how something like this works, how it compares to current hardware, and what it realistically would mean for current engines. MS, fly Durante out to you!
 
S

Space_nut

Member
Ehker said:
Everything has bottlenecks. What is this supposed to mean?
Click to expand...

Like what I said

You won't see pro, XB1, PS4 bottlenecks on Scorpio. Whatever those consoles had issues with you won't see on Scorpio. Yes Scorpio will have some but nothing in relation to any previous console
 
R

Risk Breaker

Member
JeffG said:
has nothing to do with the gpu

Edit: I just noticed the title is wrong. It should read DirectX is built directly into the CPU
Click to expand...


Lmao. Read the OP.

"We essentially moved Direct3D 12," says Goossen. "We built that into the command processor of the GPU
Click to expand...

DX12 is an API that required certain GPU hardware features. You can run DX12 games in any CPU.

We've had DX12 GPUs for years.

Again, how is this any different? What real differences does this bring, outside of PR speak?
 
W

wildfire

Banned
dr_rus said:
I somewhat cringed at this part of DF's today reveal as it's basically a techobabble as in saying something pretty which doesn't really mean anything to be quoted by the fans further down the road ("but does this GPU moved to DX12???")

Without actual technical details it's really hard to say whether this is something unique to Scorpio or is already present in all modern GCN GPUs for example.
Click to expand...

Exactly my thought. It's really frustrating to read a quote like this because I expect more out of Digital Foundary article. Hell WCCFtech can put out a better article and all their speculation based on known facts becomes 80% BS as more details come out later.
 
N

Newboi

Member
dr_rus said:
Is it encoded in binary though or leet speak?

If you don't get it the first time, what was said in DF's article makes no sense. As in none at all.



Calls? As in draw calls? So it's about batching then? 8)
Click to expand...

I would hope that someone from Digital Foundry would elaborate on this specialized "DX12 Hardware".

It's nonsensical the way they described it. Exactly what overhead is this dedicated hardware removing from the CPU? Also, wouldn't an increase in the overall number of drawcalls allowable be desired?
 
W

What A Time To Be Alive

Member
hope said:
Words cannot express how horrible a mistake Microsoft made by revealing the hardware specifications for Scorpio at E3 '16. What on earth were they thinking? Sony intentionally remained silent about the final Pro specifications because they didn't want to reveal all their cards. They said it - Scorpio is not a next gen console. Their greatest priority, i.e., Microsoft and Sony would have been to ensure that their customer bases adopt Scorpio and Pro smoothly. By revealing the specifications and launch timeframe for Scorpio, Microsoft gave Sony the following advantages:
 
1) A frame of reference to work with which Sony capitalized on by underspec'ing the Pro. Majority of console titles are cross-platform. If cross-platform developers wish to maintain healthy sales across both console platforms, then they will have no choice but to tailor games with comparable IQ. Speaking of IQ, the human eye can't really discern the difference between native 4K and checkerboard rendered 4K. Before they revealed the final specifications for Scorpio, Microsoft only lost ground when it came to exclusives. They didn't really have an advantage with Scorpio. But because they revealed the specifications of Scorpio, they unintentionally gave Sony an advantage who cheekily used the concept of least common denominator to set the standard for 4K-capable console h/w specification.
2) By revealing the launch timeframe for Scorpio, Microsoft gave Sony a window of opportunity to ramp up production of the Pro. By launching earlier, Sony had sufficient time to ensure that a healthy portion of their existing customer base would smoothly transition over to the Pro by the time Scorpio launched.
 
Still think i'm wrong?
 
The writing is all there on the wall! In fact, it has been there since Sony announced the Pro in September 2016. Why do you think Microsoft tried convincing everyone that Scorpio was still more powerful than the PS4 Pro when we didn't need to be reminded in the first place? The day Sony announced the Pro was when Microsoft started sh***ing bricks by the truckload. Moreover, Leadbetter from DF didn't even seem excited today. Everybody who was looking forward to the DF analysis of Scorpio were expecting gameplay videos. We already know what to expect from the h/w. Instead, DF reported the same news about the h/w, no different from last year. Everybody was expecting FM7 and instead we were treated to a single screenshot of a souped up version of FM6 running on Scorpio! WTF!!!  :ko:
 
Want more indirect proof?
 
Check out the disassembly tutorials of the PS4 Slim and the Pro on iFixit. The quality of the components used to manufacture the PS4 Slim and PS4 Pro pass QC but are not as good as Xbox One S. This tells me that Sony has sacrificed QC to launch the PS4 Slim and the Pro as early as possible.

Stupid MS.For 499 only an Idiot Buys this when Pro is available far cheaper.
Click to expand...
Gotta be the dumbest shit I read all day on here.
 
E

Ehker

Member
Space_nut said:
Like what I said

You won't see pro, XB1, PS4 bottlenecks on Scorpio. Whatever those consoles had issues with you won't see on Scorpio. Yes Scorpio will have some but nothing in relation to any previous console
Click to expand...

What exactly (in technical terms) completely frees the Scorpio from having bottlenecks that every other console has.
 
VincentMatts

VincentMatts

Member
Ehker said:
These are buzzwords. There's always something holding back performance, and there will be once again on this new console.
Click to expand...

Well i mean its all relative. If they keep making games that are required to work on base ps4 and xbox one hardware, there will be very few bottlenecks on scorpio in theory.

Its not a next gen console starting from scratch. Its a new xbox one and will play games that are designed to work on a base xbox one.

I dont see how scorpio will have trouble with anything that can run on a base xbox one.
 
R

RedStep

Member
hope said:
Words cannot express how horrible a mistake Microsoft made by revealing the hardware specifications for Scorpio at E3 '16. What on earth were they thinking? Sony intentionally remained silent about the final Pro specifications because they didn't want to reveal all their cards. They said it - Scorpio is not a next gen console. Their greatest priority, i.e., Microsoft and Sony would have been to ensure that their customer bases adopt Scorpio and Pro smoothly. By revealing the specifications and launch timeframe for Scorpio, Microsoft gave Sony the following advantages:
 
1) A frame of reference to work with which Sony capitalized on by underspec'ing the Pro. Majority of console titles are cross-platform. If cross-platform developers wish to maintain healthy sales across both console platforms, then they will have no choice but to tailor games with comparable IQ. Speaking of IQ, the human eye can't really discern the difference between native 4K and checkerboard rendered 4K. Before they revealed the final specifications for Scorpio, Microsoft only lost ground when it came to exclusives. They didn't really have an advantage with Scorpio. But because they revealed the specifications of Scorpio, they unintentionally gave Sony an advantage who cheekily used the concept of least common denominator to set the standard for 4K-capable console h/w specification.
2) By revealing the launch timeframe for Scorpio, Microsoft gave Sony a window of opportunity to ramp up production of the Pro. By launching earlier, Sony had sufficient time to ensure that a healthy portion of their existing customer base would smoothly transition over to the Pro by the time Scorpio launched.
 
Still think i'm wrong?
 
The writing is all there on the wall! In fact, it has been there since Sony announced the Pro in September 2016. Why do you think Microsoft tried convincing everyone that Scorpio was still more powerful than the PS4 Pro when we didn't need to be reminded in the first place? The day Sony announced the Pro was when Microsoft started sh***ing bricks by the truckload. Moreover, Leadbetter from DF didn't even seem excited today. Everybody who was looking forward to the DF analysis of Scorpio were expecting gameplay videos. We already know what to expect from the h/w. Instead, DF reported the same news about the h/w, no different from last year. Everybody was expecting FM7 and instead we were treated to a single screenshot of a souped up version of FM6 running on Scorpio! WTF!!!  :ko:
 
Want more indirect proof?
 
Check out the disassembly tutorials of the PS4 Slim and the Pro on iFixit. The quality of the components used to manufacture the PS4 Slim and PS4 Pro pass QC but are not as good as Xbox One S. This tells me that Sony has sacrificed QC to launch the PS4 Slim and the Pro as early as possible.

Stupid MS.For 499 only an Idiot Buys this when Pro is available far cheaper.
Click to expand...

Where did all of these people come from today?
 
anothertech

anothertech

Member
My question is, since dx12 was released, what differences in performance have we seen in games? I've been looking for this for a while. Is there anything specific we can see yet in past titles?
 
Nikana

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
JeffG said:
It is to save CPU cycles

DirectX runs as software on the CPU. They moved it into hardware.
Click to expand...

I think if you could elaborate on the bolded I think it would help a lot of people understand how DirectX 12 being integrated in the hardware is different.
 
ISee

ISee

Member
VincentMatts said:
DF are the ones that need to explain it, theyre the ones who said it.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...pio-is-console-hardware-pushed-to-a-new-level

From what I've seen so far, there is some evidence that Scorpio's true 4K performance could pose a challenge to the likes of Nvidia's GTX 1070 and AMD's Fury X-class hardware. I've seen Microsoft's new console running a Forza Motorsport 6-level experience locked to 4K60 on the equivalent to PC's ultra settings - cranking up the quality presets to obscene levels was one of the first things developer Turn 10 did when confronted with the sheer amount of headroom it had left after a straight Xbox One port. Out of interest, we tested Forza 6 Apex with similar settings at 4K on GTX 1060, 1070 and 1080. Frames were dropped on GTX 1060 (and a lot of them when wet weather conditions kicked in), while GTX 1070 held firm with only the most intense wet weather conditions causing performance dips. Only GTX 1080 held completely solid in all test cases. It's only one data point, and the extent to which the code is comparable at all is debatable, but it certainly doesn't harm Scorpio's credentials: Forza 6 Apex received plenty of praise for the quality of its PC port.
Click to expand...

Okay, the 4k asset thing is still just Microsoft using buzz words, the performance hit from slightly better textures isn't as high as they want us to believe. But for the rest? Interesting indeed.
And as stated comparing both games is debatable, especially if there is new weather code in forza 6 but not in apex, you also need to know what kind of CPU was powering the PC setup. But whatever. Point to them.
 
JeffG

JeffG

Member
Nikana said:
I think if you could elaborate on the bolded I think it would help a lot of people understand how DirectX 12 being integrated in the hardware is different.
Click to expand...
Not sure what needs clarification.


If you have a finite number of CPU cycles and you believe/know that is a potential bottleneck for a system. How does one make more CPU cycles available?

One way is to offload instructions to dedicated chip. (Most people should understand this. Thats how we got dedicated graphic/sound cards)

So...one way to think about it is that DirectX has been moved to a dedicated chip, but since its purpose is to be the go-between CPU and GPU its hardware implementation is within the APU itself.
 
JeffG

JeffG

Member
Risk Breaker said:
GPUs already have hardware for DX12. That's why not all GPUs are DX12 compatible.
Click to expand...

for DirectX

its DirectX itself that is now in encoded in hardware



App -> DirectX -> Driver -> Video Card Processing

DirectX for a PC is software that is delivered/executed as dll's. It take CPU cycles etc etc (in DF video they talk about 1000's of cycles of CPU time) This has been moved to hardware where its cost in CPU cycles is a lot less. (In the DF example I think they said 11 cycles)
 
Shpeshal Nick

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Methinks that this is a subtle attempt to coerce devs into using DX12 more and in turn, UWP.

Be interesting to see if it works.
 
The Hamburglar

The Hamburglar

Banned
Space_nut said:
Like what I said

You won't see pro, XB1, PS4 bottlenecks on Scorpio. Whatever those consoles had issues with you won't see on Scorpio. Yes Scorpio will have some but nothing in relation to any previous console
Click to expand...

lmao

"you won't see bottlenecks on scorpio; actually you will see some"
 
R

Risk Breaker

Member
JeffG said:
Its basically what they said. It wouldn't be the full DirectX, but they would take portions of it and move it to hardware. Saying "all" is a oversimplification, but it describes the intent of what they are trying to do

https://youtu.be/RE2hNrq1Zxs?t=184
Click to expand...

You keep mentioning, first, CPU customizations and then a dedicated chip to natively run DX instructions. When all they've really talked about is the GPU's scheduler/command processor. Yes, those things exist and are meant to distribute work as efficiently as possible, but they're not a new concept.

Now, I want concrete information on what they've changed in that, and why wouldn't AMD have done that for their own products already if it was as ground-breaking as you say. You wouldn't see Ryzen lagging behind the 7700k, that's for sure.
 
JeffG

JeffG

Member
Risk Breaker said:
Now, I want concrete information on what they've changed in that, and why wouldn't AMD have done that for their own products already if it was as ground-breaking as you say. You wouldn't see Ryzen lagging behind the 7700k, that's for sure.
Click to expand...
I can tell by your comment that I have failed to communicate what the actual change is. This is my fault. Sorry
 
L

L.O.R.D

Member
Full DX12?

Time to use that gif again

kitta5q9o.gif
 
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