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[John Rabbit]

Come on, nobody in this thread is coming down on gamers who bought Dark Souls 2 and blaming them for enjoying the game.

People just feel disappointed and a bit perplexed because these issues are coming out of nowhere. Nobody's trying to dampen your enthusiasm.

i'm not going to comb through the insanity that this thread has become, but there have been multiple claims that people who "bought it anyway" are part of the problem that developers can get away with "lying" in their marketing. my enthusiasm isn't diminished in the slightest, it's been a fantastic game so far.

 

[Gbraga]

He thinks the game looks good on consoles so a boost in resolution in framerate would probably cause that reaction.

He's a PC gamer though, so he would know the difference between a good looking game and a good PC version of a game.

I think the game looks great on consoles too.

 

[orborborb]

Dark Souls II is a great game that is not significantly compromised by its technical and artistic faults, but it's still clear to me that for its debut release at least it was a mistake for them to make it on a new engine. Playing both PS3 versions I see no benefits, only drawbacks. More pop-in, jankier animations, more texture seams, unfinished-looking areas, enemies feeling out of place in their environments, less realistic lighting, more variable framerate, less reliable camera and character movement, more input lag.

I really hope the PC version justifies this new engine somehow.

 

[CountAntonius]

He's a PC gamer though, so he would know the difference between a good looking game and a good PC version of a game.

I think the game looks great on consoles too.

Well I am too and the difference between Dark Souls console and Dark Souls Durante edition blew me away and that was just resolution.

 

[Fotheringay]

I just don't agree with you folks. There was no crime committed. I didn't even notice it was different from how it was advertised until I entered this thread. I just think actually playing the game would alleviate 90% of the frustration people are projecting in this thread. If you go into the Dark Souls 2 OT, it's marvelous. It's the kind of DS thread we all know and love. People giving stat build comparisons, strategy conversations, item hints, boss tips, etc. Just sucks to have the spirit of Dark Souls get marred by the prototypical online controversy that we all love to pile up on.

You can still enjoy the game a ton (I'm 10 hours in, love it just as much as the previous two so far) and yet be disappointed in the bait and switch here. At this point it's out of hand, you've got the few forum crazies proclaiming it's the end of the world, and journalists going out of their way to belittle anyone who complains about a vast gulf in quality from the pre-release build. It's still fun, anyone who liked Demon's or Dark is going to find a very similar experience, but From shouldn't get away with peddling such bullshit again and have it hand-waved away.

 

[Gbraga]

Well I am too and the difference between Dark Souls console and Dark Souls Durante edition blew me away and that was just resolution.

You know what, you're absolutely right.

 

[dosh]

i'm not going to comb through the insanity that this thread has become, but there have been multiple claims that people who "bought it anyway" are part of the problem that developers can get away with "lying" in their marketing. my enthusiasm isn't diminished in the slightest, it's been a fantastic game so far.

Of course, you're going to find some posts like these. It's a public forum on the internet, where some people tend to be a bit hypetbolic.

And their claim is about as unfair as yours when you say that this thread is "insanity" and imply that one of its highlights is people blaming gamers who bought DkS 2. It's simply not true. Glad you enjoy the game though.

 

[epmode]

This is how I think it happened:

The original footage was a Killzone 2 E3-style bullshit target render. They quickly scaled back the game but kept the improved lighting, going so far as to work the lighting right into the gameplay. This would be the sequel's big hook, and From talked up the torch system in lots of interviews.

From's assurances that they'd be able to optimize the 360/PS3 framerate in spite of the improved lighting fell through very late in the project. Once it became clear that the older consoles couldn't handle it, Namco had to make a choice:

1. Surgically remove the torch system from the game and redesign the affected areas accordingly
(expensive, delay required, looks good)

2. Rip out the lighting and add a bunch of ambient light to compensate
(costs almost nothing, no delay, looks like shit)

They clearly chose the second option but continued to promote the game with the lighting enabled, right up through the end of January.

Now even though PC hardware can obviously handle the improved lighting, I have a feeling that From stripped it from the PC port as well, just to keep parity with the console versions. After all, releasing a vastly superior version of the game not even two months later would not fly with fans that just spent $60 on it. And it's not like the PC people can complain when the resolution and framerate of their version is still better than the console release!

The improved lighting can easily be added back into the game when the inevitable PS4/XBone port is released, and it will be a great selling point.

 

[Kalnos]

Well I am too and the difference between Dark Souls console and Dark Souls Durante edition blew me away and that was just resolution.

Still, no need to be overly pessimistic about the PC version just yet. The console version looks abysmal though.

 

[FairXchange]

Some final thoughts on this 'controversy'. Are we forgetting this game launched in a transitional stage between last gen and the new generation? We're all playing this new game on 8 year old hardware, and yet somehow we are surprised when potentially hardware taxing effects need to be scaled back or removed? If you really want the most out of your Dark Souls 2 experience, buy it for your PC or wait for a potential next gen version to be announced. Going the PC route, it would only be a matter of time until the lighting system you may prefer gets fully modded in, assuming it doesn't show up in the retail build. Also, looking at the game on my PS3, I distinctly get the impression that I am witnessing a game with potentially great assets being rendered at the 'low setting' for the sake of performance. It's actually quite obvious how good this engine could possibly look with the right hardware, and that's why I'm maintaining that PC players are probably in for a real treat with how this game ends up looking in comparison to the console build.

 

[jim2point0]

https://twitter.com/VaatiVidya/status/444245025778458624

Please just show us a video, Bandai!

He's pretty much a mouthpiece for Namco at this point so I'm taking everything he says with a grain of salt.

 

[Havel]

The optimist in me says the lighting change on consoles was a last minute change for performance. They could have released the PC version earlier, but the reason they delayed the PC version to the end of April after saying March was to further optimize the lighting engine for it.

 

[malboroking]

Dark Souls II is a great game that is not significantly compromised by its technical and artistic faults, but it's still clear to me that for its debut release at least it was a mistake for them to make it on a new engine. Playing both PS3 versions I see no benefits, only drawbacks. More pop-in, jankier animations, more texture seams, unfinished-looking areas, enemies feeling out of place in their environments, less realistic lighting, more variable framerate, less reliable camera and character movement, more input lag.

I really hope the PC version justifies this new engine somehow.

After playing the game for 12 hours now on PS3, I couldn't agree with you more. The frame rate is worse than DS and the camera feels janky to me. The animation is a downgrade as well. Playing them both back to back you can notice a big difference. I've been looking forward to this game since its announcement and I have to say I'm really disappointed so far. Really hoping the PC doesn't have the same problems.

Some final thoughts on this 'controversy'. Are we forgetting this game launched in a transitional stage between last gen and the new generation? We're all playing this new game on 8 year old hardware, and yet somehow we are surprised when potentially hardware taxing effects need to be scaled back or removed? If you really want the most out of your Dark Souls 2 experience, buy it for your PC or wait for a potential next gen version to be announced. Going the PC route, it would only be a matter of time until the lighting system you may prefer gets fully modded in, assuming it doesn't show up in the retail build. Also, looking at the game on my PS3, I distinctly get the impression that I am witnessing a game with potentially great assets being rendered at the 'low setting' for the sake of performance. It's actually quite obvious how good this engine could possibly look with the right hardware, and that's why I'm maintaining that PC players are probably in for a real treat with how this game ends up looking in comparison to the console build.

Then they shouldn't have released all of those videos and screenshots with the enhanced lighting and textures leading people to believe that's what the final product would look like on consoles. It's completely disingenuous. They talk about the new lighting system in the making of video and it's completely absent in the final product.

 

[Fotheringay]

The optimist in me says the lighting change on consoles was a last minute change for performance. They could have released the PC version earlier, but the reason they delayed the PC version to the end of April after saying March was to further optimize the lighting engine for it.

The most interesting part of all this for me is how did/does this effect the torch system? Was it truly just for lighting dark areas, and is now completely vestigial? Or is there something else involved. I'm only at

Spoiler

Lost Bastille

so I have no idea if this is going to pay off in the end, or whether I'm wasting my time.

 

[Joqu]

I'd be perfectly fine with people defending this shit if it was just graphics but fact is that these downgrades do affect the gameplay. Like, most of the changed assets can be justified for artistic reasons (even though I personally prefer the old look from what I've seen). I mean there's no problem with a building now being covered in moss and things like that, even if you do prefer the old look. That's not what the complaints are about. The uselessness of the torch mechanics due to the changed lightning and removal of other gameplay mechanics that were in the beta like spell charging however are absolutely things people have every right to complain about, no matter how much of a critical darling Dark Souls was. It's such a shame really.

Plus y'know, the aforementioned false advertising is pretty damning!

 

[-tetsuo-]

The game is plagued with bugs!

I've seen enemies materializing out of thin air, distant mobs moving at lower framerates, out of sync sound FX (everytime), objects disappearing and reappearing in fractions of a second, enemies not registering my attacks, input lag both in the HUD and most screen menus, corpses floating around or having half of their body inside the walls. . .

The texture quality of most enemies is shit. The hound dogs and skeletons look like they belong (again) to a PS2 game. DS1's mobs had higher poly counts than some of the enemies I've encountered so far.

FROM better fix most of that shit for the PC release because there IS a great game hiding behind a huge pile of problems.

The Co-op is superb and works like a charm. I seriously can't wait to play with all of you guys when this gets released on PC. Dedicated servers + no loading times = The ultimate Souls experience.

Sounds like the console players beta tested for the PC for once.

 

[Haunted]

This is how I think it happened:

The original footage was a Killzone 2 E3-style bullshit target render. They quickly scaled back the game but kept the improved lighting, going so far as to work the lighting right into the gameplay. This would be the sequel's big hook, and From talked up the torch system in lots of interviews.

From's assurances that they'd be able to optimize the 360/PS3 framerate in spite of the improved lighting fell through very late in the project. Once it became clear that the older consoles couldn't handle it, Namco had to make a choice:

1. Surgically remove the torch system from the game and redesign the affected areas accordingly
(expensive, delay required, looks good)

2. Rip out the lighting and add a bunch of ambient light to compensate
(costs almost nothing, no delay, looks like shit)

They clearly chose the second option but continued to promote the game with the lighting enabled, right up through the end of January.

Now even though PC hardware can obviously handle the improved lighting, I have a feeling that From stripped it from the PC port as well, just to keep parity with the console versions. After all, releasing a vastly superior version of the game not even two months later would not fly with fans that just spent $60 on it. And it's not like the PC people can complain when the resolution and framerate of their version is still better than the console release!

The improved lighting can easily be added back into the game when the inevitable PS4/XBone port is released, and it will be a great selling point.

scary how plausible this is

 

[KarmaCow]

This is how I think it happened:

The original footage was a Killzone 2 E3-style bullshit target render. They quickly scaled back the game but kept the improved lighting, going so far as to work the lighting right into the gameplay. This would be the sequel's big hook, and From talked up the torch system in lots of interviews.

From's assurances that they'd be able to optimize the 360/PS4 framerate in spite of the improved lighting fell through very late in the project. Once it became clear that the older consoles couldn't handle it, Namco had to make a choice:

1. Surgically remove the torch system from the game and redesign the affected areas accordingly
(expensive, delay required, looks good)

2. Rip out the lighting and add a bunch of ambient light to compensate
(costs almost nothing, no delay, looks like shit)

They clearly chose the second option but continued to promote the game with the lighting enabled, right up through the end of January.

Now even though PC hardware can obviously handle the improved lighting, I have a feeling that From stripped it from the PC port as well, just to keep parity with the console versions. After all, releasing a vastly superior version of the game not even two months later would not fly with fans that just spent $60 on it. And it's not like the PC people can complain when the resolution and framerate of their version is still better than the console release!

The improved lighting can easily be added back into the game when the inevitable PS4/XBone port is released, and it will be a great selling point.

I agree that this seems like a last minute cut with how you can see the remnants stand out like a sore thumb but there are still a few weird things with this.

What about the demos people played on PS3s, both in the press event and the beta? People said the game ran fine and wasn't struggling under the strain of the lighting system. Was this just an isolated demo smoke and mirrors that was never actually part of the game? To show that off in January is pretty sleezy.

The second I haven't seen this first hand and I'm going off other people's impressions so it could just be false, but people have also said that the lighting system is present in cutscenes like boss intros. Are they short videos or the first thing that was optimized in development? Neither of those sound likely.

 

[Gbraga]

He's pretty much a mouthpiece for Namco at this point so I'm taking everything he says with a grain of salt.

He did say he doesn't like warping and the enemy despawning thing though.

 

[Havel]

This is how I think it happened:

The original footage was a Killzone 2 E3-style bullshit target render. They quickly scaled back the game but kept the improved lighting, going so far as to work the lighting right into the gameplay. This would be the sequel's big hook, and From talked up the torch system in lots of interviews.

From's assurances that they'd be able to optimize the 360/PS3 framerate in spite of the improved lighting fell through very late in the project. Once it became clear that the older consoles couldn't handle it, Namco had to make a choice:

1. Surgically remove the torch system from the game and redesign the affected areas accordingly
(expensive, delay required, looks good)

2. Rip out the lighting and add a bunch of ambient light to compensate
(costs almost nothing, no delay, looks like shit)

They clearly chose the second option but continued to promote the game with the lighting enabled, right up through the end of January.

Now even though PC hardware can obviously handle the improved lighting, I have a feeling that From stripped it from the PC port as well, just to keep parity with the console versions. After all, releasing a vastly superior version of the game not even two months later would not fly with fans that just spent $60 on it. And it's not like the PC people can complain when the resolution and framerate of their version is still better than the console release!

The improved lighting can easily be added back into the game when the inevitable PS4/XBone port is released, and it will be a great selling point.

That's what happens when you play on nearly decade year old hardware, though.

Forcing parity between two nearly 10 year old systems makes sense. Forcing parity between them and a PC does not.

 

[CountAntonius]

This is how I think it happened:

The original footage was a Killzone 2 E3-style bullshit target render. They quickly scaled back the game but kept the improved lighting, going so far as to work the lighting right into the gameplay. This would be the sequel's big hook, and From talked up the torch system in lots of interviews.

From's assurances that they'd be able to optimize the 360/PS3 framerate in spite of the improved lighting fell through very late in the project. Once it became clear that the older consoles couldn't handle it, Namco had to make a choice:

1. Surgically remove the torch system from the game and redesign the affected areas accordingly
(expensive, delay required, looks good)

2. Rip out the lighting and add a bunch of ambient light to compensate
(costs almost nothing, no delay, looks like shit)

They clearly chose the second option but continued to promote the game with the lighting enabled, right up through the end of January.

Now even though PC hardware can obviously handle the improved lighting, I have a feeling that From stripped it from the PC port as well, just to keep parity with the console versions. After all, releasing a vastly superior version of the game not even two months later would not fly with fans that just spent $60 on it. And it's not like the PC people can complain when the resolution and framerate of their version is still better than the console release!

The improved lighting can easily be added back into the game when the inevitable PS4/XBone port is released, and it will be a great selling point.

I agree with everything but the last part. Or at least if it's done the PC version would get a free upgrade since the next gen ports would be based on it anyway. But seeing as how hard the game seems to be for people with the light turned on I'm not sure we will ever see the torch mechanic become as big as it was supposed to be.

 

[Kalnos]

That's what happens when you play on nearly decade year old hardware, though.

Forcing parity between two nearly 10 year old systems makes sense. Forcing parity between them and a PC does not.

Pretty much. Not to mention the PC is already confirmed to be better graphically and costs $50 anyway.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

That's what happens when you play on nearly decade year old hardware, though.

Forcing parity between two nearly 10 year old systems makes sense. Forcing parity between them and a PC does not.

It would be a good way to sell the next-gen port. If the PC version is gonna look as good as that version it wouldn't be a good way to whack these console users 60 more bucks.

Pretty much. Not to mention the PC is already confirmed better graphically and costs $50 anyway.

We only heard about better textures and resolution, which is, almost, the minimum these days....

 

[Ghazi]

I think the PC port will turn out well, it makes sense that the PC port is over a month difference release as well, to prevent returns from launch day purchases, as well as the optimization. This pretty much allows them to focus solely on the PC, and I guess that's great for PC players.


Meanwhile on console:

 

[Metalingus5150]

I wouldn't mind if From made the PC version with all the effects and stuff. It can MORE than handle it. This is from a console guy. Imagine if Dark Souls becomes a PC focused series rather than a console one?

 

[Kalnos]

We only heard about better textures and resolution, which is, almost, the minimum these days....

Well his point was that putting out a vastly superior edition a month later wouldn't fly... and that's exactly what's going to happen either way (and it will $10 cheaper).

 

[TheSadRanger]

The big issue people are having is the lack of transparency. If this was a cross gen game similar to AC:Black Flag where you had a PS3 version and PS4 version that you could upgrade to for $10, then I don't think anyone would give a shit if the PS4 version of DS 2 looked like the reveal version.

The thing is, I don't want to buy the game that Dark Souls 2 currently looks like. I want to buy the game that was initially revealed and I don't know if that will happen.

I mean cmon, as it's been stated before there's a lot more than just lighting missing.

I want this..

Not this

I don't think *higher texture resolution* and *higher fps* is gonna magically fix it for the PC version either. Where did the fucking art assets disappear to?

 

[Havel]

I'm thinking of starting a petition for the lighting to be present in the PC version, at least as an option. It worked for getting Dark Souls on the PC, and I know there is a lot of interest in this. Either that, or a Twitter campaign to get answers from Namco about it.

What do you guys think?

 

[Zomba13]

I'm thinking of starting a petition for the lighting to be present in the PC version, at least as an option. It worked for getting Dark Souls on the PC, and I know there is a lot of interest in this. Either that, or a Twitter campaign to get answers from Namco about it.

What do you guys think?

It won't do any good apart from getting games 'journalists' to call you crazy and entitled.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I'm thinking of starting a petition for the lighting to be present in the PC version, at least as an option. It worked for getting Dark Souls on the PC, and I know there is a lot of interest in this. Either that, or a Twitter campaign to get answers from Namco about it.

What do you guys think?

That probably will be useless and that is a premature action, we still don't know how is the PC version.

 

[TheCongressman1]

I'm thinking of starting a petition for the lighting to be present in the PC version, at least as an option. It worked for getting Dark Souls on the PC, and I know there is a lot of interest in this. Either that, or a Twitter campaign to get answers from Namco about it.

What do you guys think?

Absolutely. I'll be the first signature.

That probably will be useless and that is a premature action, we still don't know how is the PC version.

Why wait? If its already in, then great, if not, we wasted a month waiting to hear something.

 

[Karkador]

I mean cmon, as it's been stated before there's a lot more than just lighting missing.

I want this..

Not this

I don't think *higher texture resolution* and *higher fps* is gonna magically fix it for the PC version either. Where did the fucking art assets disappear to?

This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder if FROM's hard drives died and they lost a bunch of work. The lower shot looks like the preliminary pass at the level.

It just seems unusual to me to un-make the work that was done, especially when the former is considerably better (and it's not like it was running terribly from the gameplay videos we saw, nor do people seem to be saying i'ts running spectacularly now)

 

[epmode]

I don't think *higher texture resolution* and *higher fps* is gonna magically fix it for the PC version either. Where did the fucking art assets disappear to?

Either the improved geometry/textures were an early peek at the PS4/XBone version or it was a target render, Killzone 2 style. I'm leaning to target render.

 

[Havel]

It won't do any good apart from getting games 'journalists' to call you crazy and entitled.

Entitled for wanting what was shown up to a month from release? I don't give a shit what journalists think, I want what was advertised for a year until a few weeks from release. I understand that game design changes, but this:

is beyond the realm of acceptability when THAT was the product shown up until release day. We had no idea it looked like that second picture until after the game had released. Despite footage showing it was the former a few weeks before shipping. If that isn't blatant false advertising, then I don't know what is.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

A target render? It was pretty obvious the initial footage was real-time gameplay.

 

[Fried Food]

omg I gotta stop coming into this thread. Each new comparison is killing me

 

[epmode]

A target render? It was pretty obvious the initial footage was real-time gameplay.

Did the press get to play the initial reveal? I'm pretty sure no one did. It was already downgraded by the time anyone outside of From got to play the game.

 

[vpance]

I think there's a good chance the PC version will look like the initial showings. The kind of stripped down and neutered graphics we're seeing seems to indicate they were quick ports from a PC or next gen version.

From is shit technically, but you still wouldn't get this kind of slash and burn to a game's assets if you've truly got dedicated engines tailored for each platform.

 

[KarmaCow]

Did anyone outside of From play that version?

It's basically the same thing but it probably was real time and not a target render. It was just wasn't running on a console and was carefully constructed.

 

[Korezo]

I hate when I'm shown something and then get something different. It kills the game for me. The soul series are my favorite games right now, and this thread made me hate dark souls 2, if the pc version doesn't look like it was originally suppose to, then I won't be buying shit until it's $5.

 

[CountAntonius]

I think there's a good chance the PC version will look like the initial showings. The kind of stripped down and neutered graphics we're seeing seems to indicate they were quick ports from a PC or next gen version.

From is shit technically, but you still wouldn't get this kind of slash and burn to a game's assets if you've truly got dedicated engines tailored for each platform.

The PC game can look better but I don't see them adding an element that drastically changes the way the game is played on other platforms. Maybe they can add improved lighting though?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

omg I gotta stop coming into this thread. Each new comparison is killing me

Same.

Oh god....how can anyone think that looks good? I'm gonna play Dark Souls on my PC again...

 

[HDgaming42]

Glad now that I sat this one out. Double dipped (PS3, PC) for Dark Souls, but figured I'd wait for the PC version of DSII this time.

Now it looks like I'll be waiting for the play-tested reviews of the PC version here on GAF before I consider a purchase.

 

[Alienous]

This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder if FROM's hard drives died and they lost a bunch of work. The lower shot looks like the preliminary pass at the level.

It just seems unusual to me to un-make the work that was done, especially when the former is considerably better (and it's not like it was running terribly from the gameplay videos we saw, nor do people seem to be saying i'ts running spectacularly now)

Damn, yeah.

This seems like Sims 2 levels of recreating the game. The Sims 2 dev team lost a lot of their data and assets, and rebuilt it with far fewer features than it was planned to have.

But From Software have been far from honest, so we don't have any idea. But I can't believe that they created a bullshot version for the purposes of bullshoting. Something unfortunate must've happened ... other than the changed release, I mean.

 

[RK9039]

Tbh, that second picture looks like something I made in the Everquest Next Landmark alpha, only with worse lighting.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Entitled for wanting what was shown up to a month from release? I don't give a shit what journalists think, I want what was advertised for a year until a few weeks from release. I understand that game design changes, but this:

is beyond the realm of acceptability when THAT was the product shown up until release day. We had no idea it looked like that second picture until after the game had released. Despite footage showing it was the former a few weeks before shipping. If that isn't blatant false advertising, then I don't know what is.

Wooooowwww ...... that's fucking awful

 

[vpance]

The PC game can look better but I don't see them adding an element that drastically changes the way the game is played on other platforms. Maybe they can add improved lighting though?

They're not adding it to the PC version, because it's very likely already in there.

PC/Next gen ------- press button to shit port -----> PS360.

Next gen systems are basically PCs, and it's a new engine made for x86 + modern GPU architecture. They don't have the know how like KojiPro does with Fox Engine to create a decent cross gen game.

 

[weevles]

People play this game for the graphics?

 

[Alienous]

People play this game for the graphics?

Perhaps not.

But they sure as hell don't play it for the lies.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Perhaps not.

But they sure as hell don't play it for the lies.

I'm tempted to go to Bandai Namco's office address and spray [LIAR AHEAD] in orange paint on the driveway.