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[EmptySpace]

My thoughts:

Liveblog Q&A

Sony (earlier): It takes a lot of horsepower to do VR

When will it come out? Framerate and latency aims? They won't answer. Sony:"Highest framerate we can get, lowest latency we can get

Are VR games "graphically less intensive?" Is there "a reduction in graphical quality?" Shinei: "it's different" because you're immersed. <-- IMO this is definitely a dodge

Given the horsepower question, will the VR experience rendered for the PS4 be rendered slower than 2D games on the PS4?" Sony: "The graphics are so rich because you are immersed. You need a different kind of graphics optimization." <--This pretty much confirms that they will have to make sacrifices

Read between the lines... there will be rendering sacrifices made to run this on current PS4 hardware at optimized frame rates, at least in graphically demanding games.

And just FYI, Carmack was researching VR before Oculus, and building his own prototypes for gaming just as far back as Sony afaik. Go figure.

Furthermore, i was watching an interview with Carmack at a Quakecon, maybe two years back? He was talking about his hobbyist research into VR. He also mentioned back then that the Sony VR headset at the time (non-gaming) being the closest consumer tech to a viable VR headset. Going on to mention that it only had a 90 degree FOV (coincidentally the same as the new PS4 model) and how it broke immersion as you could easily see the edges of the screen. EDIT: I was corrected. It's 45 degree viewing for the old sony. However 90 is the minimum required for immersion (as stated by valve). The current rift is 110. It all seems a little too close for comfort.

Also, those who mention the Geoff Keighley tweet about Sony looking superior to Oculus, most of these guys tried Oculus before Crystal Cove (640x480 per eye). Crystal Cove is 1080p per eye and their consumer model will likely be higher, and at a higher refresh/fps combo than 60 (there is no way that Sony has the power available to do this with the current PS4 hardware).

Bottom line: The PS4 cannot dream of rendering at those specs, let alone without cutting back on the eye-candy in games.

This will be a product for the mainstream. I would consider myself an enthusiast, and at this point i don't really have any choice. I'll be buying the RIFT, and i'm disappointed that it wont support the PS4, and that Sony didn't partner with Oculus.

It'll be just like the whole 'HD' and 'True HD' crap all over again. I think i'll go with 'True VR' . Honestly, I'm not sold. Sony will have a great headset with the PS5 though i'm sure..

Also, anybody seen this?
http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/release/140319.html

It's in JAP so you'll need to translate with google.

good job catching sony with their pants down. /s


yeah games that get rendered on 2d screens at 30 fps will look better than those that get rendered at twice the image output at a high framerate.

no shit.

why are you so into the graphics having to be "downgraded". oh, ps4 can only dream to do those games hurhurhur. there is no way ps4 will handle this. just no. read between the lines, they're not telling you. they're dodging. i figured it out. oh this isn't true vr. i haven't tried it and i am only looking at some numbers in some specs sheet, but no this isn't true vr. sorry sony.

 

[Callibretto]

I think the work sony done with sound will be more important than people realize

 

[Creaking]

Jesus, what the fuck is this?

I don't know, there have been similar situations in the past. I don't mean to make a adamant accusation, I just find it fishy when someone with an untouched account suddenly gets talkative.

Could be totally innocuous though.

 

[Piggus]

I don't feel like console VR is such a good idea. Considering how many people prefer just TV and controller, I don't feel like this will take off.

The vast majority of people who "prefer" a TV and controller (I think the word you meant was "use") haven't even tried VR.

 

[Vesper73]

We will see, i'm far more worried about refresh rates and fps on the PS4. Oculus are aiming above 60hz. There's no way that the ps4 could match the frames to a refresh higher than 60 in AAA games, even if they patched in optimization that resulted in lower LOD etc as a workaround.. High refresh and stable frames are far more important to for immersion with VR than on a standard monitor (as stated many times over).

I think if the art style used is similar to Windwaker, it would be quite easy to hit 60hz. I'd definitely take the immersion that VR provides (and the requisite graphical sacrifices), over what we are generally used to in AAA titles.

One advantage the PS4 over the PC, in terms of VR, is that the developers can guarantee that every scene will hit 60hz before releasing anything. Sure there will be some loss in fidelity, but I'm not sure how much that will matter once people experience that level of immersion.

Time will tell. It will be interesting to see where this all goes!

 

[Iced_Eagle]

I don't think it will be a huge difference. More important is responsiveness because if you notice something in peripheral you could just turn your head.

The difference is pretty noticeable and really helps immersion and presence. If you were to put on a 90 degree headset and then put on a 110 degree headset, it would be crystal clear which is which.

90 degree FOV is acceptable. It's not amazing, but it works. There's just room to improve.

 

[Zeezus]

EmptySpace:
why are you so into the graphics having to be "downgraded"


Simple. Games that don't deliver a constant 60 fps or are locked to 30 will have to be optimised to run at a smooth 60 to make it viable for VR. In order to increase frames you have to sacrifice eye candy. VR 'optimization' problems.

 

[Mr.Green]

I think the work sony done with sound will be more important than people realize

This. Audio is a very important part of VR and we haven't seen much innovation on that side since the Creative Labs asswipes sued Aureal into oblivion and killed A3D.

 

[Zeezus]

I think if the art style used is similar to Windwaker, it would be quite easy to hit 60hz. I'd definitely take the immersion that VR provides (and the requisite graphical sacrifices), over what we are generally used to in AAA titles.

One advantage the PS4 over the PC, in terms of VR, is that the developers can guarantee that every scene will hit 60hz before releasing anything. Sure there will be some loss in fidelity, but I'm not sure how much that will matter once people experience that level of immersion.

Time will tell. It will be interesting to see where this all goes!

Yes i totally agree on that, the advantages of a non-fragmented platform and all.

With the PC it's up to the consumer to make sure that their hardware is up to spec, but that is half the beauty of it. I look forward to tuning my games for maximum fidelity.

I myself am most looking forward to gorgeous first person gameplay at max settings and 120hz (hopefully). 3 or 4x SLI will likely be required but i'm willing to make that financial sacrifice (and already have).

There's no doubt that there are countless other applications where the PS4 tech will be quite adequate and could really shine.

As i said before, this seems like more of a mainstream part than enthusiast.

 

[Bsigg12]

I don't think it will be a huge difference. More important is responsiveness because if you notice something in peripheral you could just turn your head.

Think about it as replacing what's in front of you in real life. With peripheral vision, you have nearly 180° FOV. The goal for VR should be to get as close as possible to this to keep a natural FOV for a human.

 

[Prototype]

My thoughts:

Liveblog Q&A

Sony (earlier): It takes a lot of horsepower to do VR

When will it come out? Framerate and latency aims? They won't answer. Sony:"Highest framerate we can get, lowest latency we can get

Are VR games "graphically less intensive?" Is there "a reduction in graphical quality?" Shinei: "it's different" because you're immersed. <-- IMO this is definitely a dodge

But it will be different. There is no analog to this. VR is a completely different experience from seeing something on a screen.

Given the horsepower question, will the VR experience rendered for the PS4 be rendered slower than 2D games on the PS4?" Sony: "The graphics are so rich because you are immersed. You need a different kind of graphics optimization." <--This pretty much confirms that they will have to make sacrifices

Of course again, you discount immersion, not to mention, art style and the king of all: game types. VR will introduce all new genres. Things we haven't even thought of. Experiences are genuinely brand new.

Read between the lines... there will be rendering sacrifices made to run this on current PS4 hardware at optimized frame rates, at least in graphically demanding games.

Yes, you've said this, 3 times now.

Bottom line: The PS4 cannot dream of rendering at those specs, let alone without cutting back on the eye-candy in games.

It will never even try to produce the graphics or eye-candy people traditionally think of as "good", or "impressive". It will be an Experience, in the most real sense of the term. There will be new barometers of success. New ways to express the art of gaming.

 

[Piggus]

EmptySpace:
why are you so into the graphics having to be "downgraded"


Simple. Games that don't deliver a constant 60 fps or are locked to 30 will have to be optimised to run at a smooth 60 to make it viable for VR. In order to increase frames you have to sacrifice eye candy. VR 'optimization' problems.

For the millionth time. It doesn't. Fucking. Matter.

Try VR for yourself and you won't give a single solitary fuck that the geometry isn't quite as detailed or shadows are rendered at a lower resolution. Your brain won't care. It will be too busy WTF-ing at the fact that you're essentially in two worlds at once. Even Minecraft in VR feels "real." The only thing that WILL distract you is lower framerate or resolution. Everything else juse won't matter once you're "inside."

 

[Callibretto]

I still think sony vr is still more exciting than or, mostly because ps move setup they have. Sony vr probably won't look as good as or because ps4 is limited compared to pc. Buat sony have standardize all the element needed for what they're targeting. Including ps move and camera.

As far as I know, oculus rift only have the headset and camera for headtracking. But they dont have the standardized motion input controller. Some dev can probably hack psmove to make it work on pc or make something else, but thats not very user friendly or standardized.

 

[TheOctodad]

Exactly, no one should expect graphics that consoles (or PCs for that matter) can pull off in 2d to just work magically on a VR headset. That'd be awesome and of course we look forward to that moment in gaming history. But that doesn't mean the steps to get to that moment can't also be amazing experiences.

 

[Glorified G]

I don't really see this taking off unless it is bundled with every console. I think it will be more of a niche product.

Which is not a bad thing. Not every product has to be consumed by the mass market. How many gamers have dedicated steering wheels for consoles? Probably a fraction, but it doesn't stop it from being on the market, having support and delivering a much different and better experience.

 

[Zeezus]

But it will be different. There is no analog to this. VR is a completely different experience from seeing something on a screen.


Of course again, you discount immersion, not to mention, art style and the king of all: game types. VR will introduce all new genres. Things we haven't even thought of. Experiences are genuinely brand new.


Yes, you've said this, 3 times now.




It will never even try to produce the graphics or eye-candy people traditionally think of as "good", or "impressive". It will be an Experience, in the most real sense of the term. There will be new barometers of success. New ways to express the art of gaming.

All great points. and yeah, sometimes you have to make things very clear. 3 times a cert. GAF isn't that daft clearly..

There are people out there who pursue fidelity/eye-candy etc in an interactive environment via VR. I'm one of them. RIFT: Shut up and take my money!

 

[Vesper73]

I myself am most looking forward to gorgeous first person gameplay at max settings and 120hz (hopefully). 3 or 4x SLI will likely be required but i'm willing to make that financial sacrifice (and already have).

I'll be right there with you (running SLI rig myself at the moment). I'm sure I'll break down and get both the Morpheus and the consumer Rift (as I am an immersion whore). My friends are annoyed that use a 52 inch monitor and sit one meter away from it.

 

[Prototype]

All great points. and yeah, sometimes you have to make things very clear. 3 times a cert. GAF isn't that daft clearly..

There are people out there who pursue fidelity/eye-candy etc in an interactive environment via VR. I'm one of them. RIFT: Shut up and take my money!

Real Talk: How much time have you spent in a VR environment?

Spoiler

don't fucking lie junior

 

[Bsigg12]

Which is not a bad thing. Not every product has to be consumed by the mass market. How many gamers have dedicated steering wheels for consoles? Probably a fraction, but it doesn't stop it from being on the market, having support and delivering a much different and better experience.

The difference there, racing games will still be made, racing wheels or not. They need this to catch on to a certain extent to give devs outside of first parties a reason to dedicate resources to it. VR is fundamentally different enough that it will require a different use of resources and building games around it versus just adding support and calling it a day.

 

[Zeezus]

I'll be right there with you (running SLI rig myself at the moment). I'm sure I'll break down and get both the Morpheus and the consumer Rift. But I am an immersion whore. My friends are annoyed that use a 52 inch monitor and sit one meter away from it.

Now that's immersion! I recommend a pair of Gunnars if you're that close to the screen. I strain just being close to a 27"

 

[Glorified G]

The difference there, racing games will still be made, racing wheels or not. They need this to catch on to a certain extent to give devs outside of first parties a reason to dedicate resources to it. VR is fundamentally different enough that it will require a different use of resources and building games around it versus just adding support and calling it a day.

I don't disagree, just saying VR doesn't need to have mass market appeal in order to have support and quality games. Oculus is not even on the market, yet it has several games announced with support.

 

[EmptySpace]

The difference there, racing games will still be made, racing wheels or not. They need this to catch on to a certain extent to give devs outside of first parties a reason to dedicate resources to it. VR is fundamentally different enough that it will require a different use of resources and building games around it versus just adding support and calling it a day.

that's why it's exciting, the same way motion gaming and touch gaming are built differently from traditional games. no matter how elitist some people think of themselves, but wii sports was something else. playing tennis on that thing was crazy back in the day, and felt way more immersive than what you'd find in something like top spin. it was compelling for a reason, and worked like magic on certain games. obviously, not every genre benefits from it but it's not meant to work on every genre. this will be the same. some games will work, some games won't. or, the games would have to be built differently.

just imagine years from now, you're playing an rts with you being the commander sitting on top of a tower overlooking the battlefield. damn.

 

[Zeezus]

Real Talk: How much time have you spent in a VR environment?

Spoiler

don't fucking lie junior

 

[Bsigg12]

that's why it's exciting, the same way motion gaming and touch gaming are built differently from traditional games. no matter how elitist some people think of themselves, but wii sports was something else. playing tennis on that thing was crazy back in the day, and felt way more immersive than what you'd find in something like top spin. it was compelling for a reason, and worked like magic on certain games. obviously, not every genre benefits from it but it's not meant to work on every genre. this will be the same. some games will work, some games won't. or, the games would have to be built differently.

just imagine years from now, you're playing an rts with you being the commander sitting on top of a tower overlooking the battlefield. damn.

Don't get me wrong, I'm crazy excited for it. I plan on buying both a Rift and this for the different experiences that will be offered. I'm just catious in that Sony has to nail the flow of content and marketing of the device for it to have a chance. The Rift sold 30k "dev kits" so I'm not too worried about the rift actually catching on. We are still a ways off from both the consumer version of the Rift and god knows when Project Morpheous will be released so there's ample time to discuss it.

 

[Callibretto]

Ideally, the industry would expand to provide both vr content and the traditional gaming content

I'm pretty excited about vr, but I really dont want vr to replace what we have today. It's kinda like when 3d is all the rage back then and the amount of 2d games decreased a lot, now 2d is mostly left to indies or small downloadable games space.

 

[Zeezus]

For the millionth time. It doesn't. Fucking. Matter.

Try VR for yourself and you won't give a single solitary fuck that the geometry isn't quite as detailed or shadows are rendered at a lower resolution. Your brain won't care. It will be too busy WTF-ing at the fact that you're essentially in two worlds at once. Even Minecraft in VR feels "real." The only thing that WILL distract you is lower framerate or resolution. Everything else juse won't matter once you're "inside."

My brain will definitely be WTFing, staggering frame rates are more noticeable with VR. More importantly, they induce nausea and break immersion. Which is why all (including sony) will be optimizing for the high/smooth frames.

Last time i checked i could run Minecraft w/ onboard graphics. Certainly not the same case with with Metro: Last Light is it?

 

[ClearData]

Yes i totally agree on that, the advantages of a non-fragmented platform and all.

With the PC it's up to the consumer to make sure that their hardware is up to spec, but that is half the beauty of it. I look forward to tuning my games for maximum fidelity.

I myself am most looking forward to gorgeous first person gameplay at max settings and 120hz (hopefully). 3 or 4x SLI will likely be required but i'm willing to make that financial sacrifice (and already have).

There's no doubt that there are countless other applications where the PS4 tech will be quite adequate and could really shine.

As i said before, this seems like more of a mainstream part than enthusiast.

If Oculus is targeting that high of a spec what kind of profit margins are they looking at? If the cost of entry is an SLI/Crossfire multi-GPU system AND the cost of the Rift I don't know who outside of the most enthusiast PC gamers are going to invest in it. The truth is that unless VR becomes affordable and mainstream you are not going to see the kind of AAA developer support for it with the requisite high end graphics you want. Between the Rift and Morpheus, following your thinking, the addressable market (6 million and counting), is much higher for the latter unless the ultra high end PC market is bigger than I thought. Odds are major publishers are going to sit this out until they see it as viable so does Oculus have first party support it can lean on? If Sony can get Naughty Dog, Santa Monica, or another studio crafting VR games that would be significant.

Now I don't want to seem like I'm tearing into the Rift. It seems to have a better chance of having better tech supporting it on PC. But looking at critical factors like market and developer support I think Sony's offering has a better chance of fostering VR as a medium.

 

[Soi-Fong]

If Oculus is targeting that high of a spec what kind of profit margins are they looking at? If the cost of entry is an SLI/Crossfire multi-GPU system AND the cost of the Rift I don't know who outside of the most enthusiast PC gamers are going to invest in it. The truth is that unless VR becomes affordable and mainstream you are not going to see the kind of AAA developer support for it with the requisite high end graphics you want. Between the Rift and Morpheus, following your thinking, the addressable market (6 million and counting), is much higher for the latter unless the ultra high end PC market is bigger than I thought. Odds are major publishers are going to sit this out until they see it as viable so does Oculus have first party support it can lean on? If Sony can get Naughty Dog, Santa Monica, or another studio crafting VR games that would be significant.

Now I don't want to seem like I'm tearing into the Rift. It seems to have a better chance of having better tech supporting it on PC. But looking at critical factors like market and developer support I think Sony's offering has a better chance of fostering VR as a medium.

I was saying this before, Sony is the only big publisher out there willing to invest a lot of money into VR game development. It helps that their first party is top-notch as well.

There is nothing wrong with indies, but imagine a studio like Naughty Dog even creating something small like Eve Valkyrie. That would be something.

 

[iceatcs]

I've read that a new rift can't do with glasses very well than the old one because they want get improvement FoV by closet distance between eyes and lens.

 

[ClearData]

I was saying this before, Sony is the only big publisher out there willing to invest a lot of money into VR game development. It helps that their first party is top-notch as well.

There is nothing wrong with indies, but imagine a studio like Naughty Dog even creating something small like Eve Valkyrie. That would be something.

I imagined a Last of Us game where you must sneak past scores of infected. No combat and insta death on detection. Morpheus lets you peek over the dusty counter you were hiding behind just in time to see a clicker lunge for you.

 

[Soi-Fong]

I imagined a Last of Us game where you must sneak past scores of infected. No combat and insta death on detection. Morpheus lets you peek over the dusty counter you were hiding behind just in time to see a clicker lunge for you.

And I die of a heart attack... Nice...

That's one genre I won't play VR with; horror.

I'm bad enough playing them on the television.

 

[serversurfer]

I've been dying for a bigger push on binaural audio tech.
Huge win for us even if VR remains niche.

Gaming Press: Umm, what's this 'GPGPU' for?
Cerny: Well, to give you one example, it would be very useful for ray-casting of audio&#8230; ^^

 

[boredandlazy]

I imagined a Last of Us game where you must sneak past scores of infected. No combat and insta death on detection. Morpheus lets you peek over the dusty counter you were hiding behind just in time to see a clicker lunge for you.

I don't like insta-death. Having to escape after being detected would make it much more intense.

 

[Soi-Fong]

Gaming Press: Umm, what's this 'GPGPU' for?
Cerny: Well, to give you one example, it would be very useful for ray-casting of audio… ^^

Dat Cerny mind... It's all starting to make sense...

 

[Sidewinder]

Holy cow, so it was real! Waking up to some sweet news, finally!

Dat NASA, dat COLONY WARS!!1 (please? Time to beg yosp yet again on Twitter)

 

[Callibretto]

Gaming Press: Umm, what's this 'GPGPU' for?
Cerny: Well, to give you one example, it would be very useful for ray-casting of audio… ^^

I remember this interview. Nice

 

[CoolCat]

edited

 

[Nightengale]

Didn't follow the event, but was there any game announcements? Or updates? Driveclub? Anything?

Only one game announced, EVE Valkyrie.

Everything else is tech demos and may not necessarily end up as real products.

 

[Raven Prime]

Only one game announced, EVE Valkyrie.

Everything else is tech demos and may not necessarily end up as real products.

More like a stealth announcement.

 

[Soi-Fong]

More like a stealth announcement.

How is it a stealth announcement? Eve VR will be a full game and it's been announced for the PS4.

 

[TheOctodad]

Didn't follow the event, but was there any game announcements? Or updates? Driveclub? Anything?

no

 

[Raven Prime]

How is it a stealth announcement? Eve VR will be a full game and it's been announced for the PS4.

Their talk was all about Project Morpheus and there was just a mention of hey you can try it with Eve Valkyrie. That was my point, at no time was Eve Valkyrie itself the center of attention.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Since the power argument continues to be thrown around...

The whole power argument is completely overblown and TOTALLY misses the point of VR. Watch any casual consumer put on an Oculus Rift with a demo running absolutely barebones graphics, and their eyes and facial expressions light up FAR more than any reaction that would be elicited by graphics as good as something like The Order (not to take anything away from that game, or any other game that has amazing 2D visuals).

VR isn't about fidelity, it's about complete and total immersion. Fooling your senses into believing you've legitimately stepped into an alternate world. Something not possible with 2D games featuring robust, dense visuals. PS4 is absolutely capable of delivering immersive VR with visuals that are far more detailed than the tech demos out there blowing people away with the Oculus Rift.

People shouldn't focus on VR being a replacement for traditional gaming experiences, because it's not. And while I'm confident that there will be a decent amount of support from traditional games, those really won't be the focus of what the device is all about. You won't be buying a VR headset largely for tacked on 3D or quasi-VR support of AAA games; you will be buying a VR headset for experiences that currently are not even available or conceptualized anywhere in the gaming landscape as it stands.

VR, when coupled with motion gaming, will create new genres and experiences that simply haven't been developed before -- and that's really what it's all about, and it has nothing to do with blistering visual detail that only the highest of high end PCs are capable of pulling off.

The other aspect is that PS3, and even PS2 era games, when combined with clean IQ, are DEFINITELY NOT UGLY, and certainly of high enough quality to do justice to VR.

Would anyone complain if this was the best we could expect for VR?

Honestly, I cannot wait to have my next "Mario 64 moment" with gaming, and it has less to with fidelity and more to do with brand new experiences. Some of you sound incredibly jaded.

 

[Soi-Fong]

Since the power argument continues to be thrown around...

PS4 is weaksauce for those games.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Prototype]

Since the power argument continues to be thrown around...

The "Mario 64" moment is an apt description. VR will be us leaving 3D behind, like we left 2D behind when 3D came.
(of course we don't completely leave older forms of entertainment behind, after all we still watch movies and TV.)

I welcome the new horizons.

 

[Killroyskbg]

First off:This has been a truly epic night guys glad to have enjoyed with u all.

Second: Why the F are people so into having it run the new CoD or battlefield in 1080p whatever fps when this might create whole new genres of games and experiences. I also don't understand how people say it will be so much superior on PC. It will but only for us that have the sufficient gear to run it that high and I would like to see average joe PC deal with higher than 1080p VR 3D when a Titan cant even reach 60FPS on CoD ghosts in 1920x1200 on ultra.

There will have to be sacrifices on both platforms to have a good experience but that should not put anyone off instead embrace the tech. Sony "joining" oculus in this devour is good for anyone interested in the tech. It will mean more incitements for devs to produce games or other experiences for it by reaching more consumers as well as getting it out there for people to embrace and enjoy and make other third party developers interested.

 

[Dolobill]

Since the power argument continues to be thrown around...

Exactly. When everyone played Mario 64 for the first time, did they complain that it didn't look like Toy Story? Of course not, film and tv-based gaming are completely different mediums. VR will essentially create another medium for consuming games.

 

[Aspiring]

I personally can't wait and hope that it is released soon. To have this in my home would be incredible and I can't wait to experience it. Day 1 for me. Hurry up Sony!

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

I just hope Sony pushes this as both virtual reality, and as an affordable head mounted display. I want one just to have something so big to play on, but not being so expensive to purchase, that takes up a ton of room, virtual reality is just an insanely sweet bonus.

Will purchase.

 

[KOHIPEET]

Lttp but: