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[iceatcs]

man, this thread is becoming clusterfuck to read.... whats going on?

Rift vs Morpheus, serious business. New kind of war.

 

[DieH@rd]

It would be very weird if consumer version of this headset would not have top-of-the-line screen. If anyone can create one it's Sony.

Mass production of final parts was not yet commenced so they shoved some mobile phone screen in it.. They will also most likely create only 1-5k of them, just enough for developers.

 

[Nzyme32]

Rift vs Morpheus, serious business. New kind of war.

Well from a PC users perspective, there's no real war. There's a 90% chance that the Sony VR set will be hacked and given drivers within the first year. Later Sony may issue official support. It benefits everyone, increased sales and more access for owners outside of the ps4. There could be all sorts of uses that are not even on the PC but on mobile in future. Gaming content may be exclusive to platforms but some experiences will likely transcend that. Everybody is a winner.

 

[StuBurns]

That's what I said in the rest of my post. They already us oleds in their hmds so it seems like they just don't have it ready in this prototype. The thing I'm curious about is that they are using HDMI and USB to hook it up to the ps4. Will they provide a switch or something that display on 2 screens or is there a port on the ps4 I'm not aware of? What's the bandwidth like for HDMI regarding 1080p refresh rate? I'm sure you answered this before but I've forgotten. I recall low persistence is not a good experience at 60hz and someone said crystal cove was seen in the range of 78hz for low persistence although oculus haven't confirmed anything

HDMI 1.4b bandwidth is no problem, it can do 120Hz 1080p.

The HDMI switching is odd, certainly switchers exist, and they're cheap, and changing cables is a pain the ass, so hopefully they provide a solution in the package.

The CC low persistence thing is confusing, because yeah, I think the idea it's 72Hz has just appeared and stuck. I was trying to find the source of it last night and couldn't. 72Hz was a standard for CRTs, but I don't know if any cellphone panels are 72Hz, it's not really a standard anymore. Personally I think lines were crossed somewhere, and it's 90 or 120, but that's pure speculation on my part.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The biggest selling point that Sony had to devs last night was mentioning how VR development is like the wild west. No one really knows what works or what will click with people when it comes to VR. We can all speculate, but there's no proven software right now. It's extremely rare in this industry when a time comes where you can just let creativity fly. The last time I think really was during the mid-90's when 3D started to happen. There was so much much creativity back then due to no one really knowing what worked.

With downloadable games being embraced by everyone including the big publishers, it really seems like a perfect timing for VR. That'll give developers a cheaper avenue to really being creative.

 

[StuBurns]

That's what I said in the rest of my post. They already us oleds in their hmds so it seems like they just don't have it ready in this prototype. The thing I'm curious about is that they are using HDMI and USB to hook it up to the ps4. Will they provide a switch or something that display on 2 screens or is there a port on the ps4 I'm not aware of? What's the bandwidth like for HDMI regarding 1080p refresh rate? I'm sure you answered this before but I've forgotten. I recall low persistence is not a good experience at 60hz and someone said crystal cove was seen in the range of 78hz for low persistence although oculus haven't confirmed anything

Okay, this interview provides some interesting things about the CC prototype.

It is 1080p (presumably 1920x1080, but they don't specify), it's still 90 FoV, but Palmer stresses it's extremely high refresh rate. In his dev days talk, he said ideally they'd want 120Hz, while 72/95 are nice bumps above 60, I don't think he would consider them extremely high, so I imagine CC is 120Hz.

Another interesting bit, although they are hoping to hit 20ms global latency in the consumer version, the two demos at CES had between 30 and 40ms. Something Sony's system could still be matching with LCD today, so the results from a comparison between the two is probably not going to be considerably different.

Consumer release wise, it's all stabs in the dark, but CC versus Morpheus is probably pretty close.

 

[thunder_snail]

Well from a PC users perspective, there's no real war. There's a 90% chance that the Sony VR set will be hacked and given drivers within the first year. Later Sony may issue official support. It benefits everyone, increased sales and more access for owners outside of the ps4. There could be all sorts of uses that are not even on the PC but on mobile in future. Gaming content may be exclusive to platforms but some experiences will likely transcend that. Everybody is a winner.

If Sony's VR headset gets hacked quickly, it's a win for the consumers. Instead of buying both OR for PC content and Morpheus for PS4 exclusives, one can just buy the Sony set and be done with it.

 

[DieH@rd]

If Sony's VR headset gets hacked quickly, it's a win for the consumers. Instead of buying both OR for PC content and Morpheus for PS4 exclusives, one can just buy the Sony set and be done with it.

Thigs wont be that easy of Sony uses little different lenses and anti-fisheye game filter. That would require every PC game to implement both Rift and Sony's version of image warping, and that is something that will be hard to enforce.

 

[_hekk05]

Have they said when the morpheus reveal video will be out?

 

[YuShtink]

Yes, because OR was already a big success in 2010.

Just stop with this crap. Palmer started designing what would become the Rift back in 2009. And even from those pictures it's incredibly obvious that they switched to the Rift's simple and elegant single screen/ski goggle design only after the Rift first made waves back in 2012. Yoshida even said Oculus was an inspiration. I don't mind people getting excited, but let's not try to take credit away from the 21 year old kid that breathed life back into VR. Sony would absolutely not be showing this device at GDC 2014 if it weren't for Oculus, so please don't try to act like Sony are the innovators here.

 

[kaching]

Rift vs Morpheus, serious business. New kind of war.

I'm still completely bemused that's there's a war to be had of this scale, at this time. Over VR. It's going to be years before a product really fulfills any serious amount of the medium's potential.

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

I'm still completely bemused that's there's a war to be had of this scale, at this time. Over VR. It's going to be years before a product really fulfills any serious amount of the medium's potential.

Agreed, especially in the controls department. Right now we've got Move, Sixense, and a slew of third party mostly kickstarted peripherals for motion controls to be used in VR. Most will be crude tools to try and bridge that gap to further immersion, but the real milestone will likely be haptic gloves that are motion tracked. Those are quite a ways off from prime time.

 

[Triple U]

No, they have methods that they feel are either better or more cost effective. This is how r&d works. The PSVR does not have low persistence as it has an LCD screen rather than oled. That will result in blury images and text that is impossible to read while you turn your head. Of course this will likely be resolved in a later iteration. R&D takes time and lots of features appear or disappear or are reworked before a final product. What anyone shows now is deceptive with purpose, to try and be ahead of the competition and enhance their position with features that the competition do not expect. So expect both companies to have unique features that are unexpected.

Also the rift has been in development for 2009. John carmack apparently had the 6th iteration at e3 2012

This is false.

 

[Zeezus]

If Oculus is targeting that high of a spec what kind of profit margins are they looking at? If the cost of entry is an SLI/Crossfire multi-GPU system AND the cost of the Rift I don't know who outside of the most enthusiast PC gamers are going to invest in it. The truth is that unless VR becomes affordable and mainstream you are not going to see the kind of AAA developer support for it with the requisite high end graphics you want. Between the Rift and Morpheus, following your thinking, the addressable market (6 million and counting), is much higher for the latter unless the ultra high end PC market is bigger than I thought. Odds are major publishers are going to sit this out until they see it as viable so does Oculus have first party support it can lean on? If Sony can get Naughty Dog, Santa Monica, or another studio crafting VR games that would be significant.

Now I don't want to seem like I'm tearing into the Rift. It seems to have a better chance of having better tech supporting it on PC. But looking at critical factors like market and developer support I think Sony's offering has a better chance of fostering VR as a medium.

Sony fostering VR as a medium could also lead to consumers experiencing an inferior first impression.

You are forgetting that PC is a fragmented platform. Also, PC games scale with hardware. It isn't something that devs will have to implement (beyond supporting the standard rift driver).

If a refresh rate is 120hz, most games will automatically V-Sync to 120fps. Beyond that, on an SLI rig you can just crank up the visual settings (textures/AF/AA), no extra support needed. Furthermore, if a system isn't capable of 120hz with the eye-candy turned up then you can always crank down the settings fairly easily right?

And lets not forget that Valve are jumping on this. Both Steam and Steambox will likely be an integral force in promoting and driving mainstream adoption of the rift and similar PC based solutions in future. I'm confident that Steam as a platform is large enough to keep the Rift in the limelight so long as it's feature set is superior.

Also Star Citizen on a Rift at a technically superior spec > any Naughty Dog game for me. However, i do agree that Sony will be more reliant on first party titles to make argument for adoption in that space.

 

[Dangoesforth]

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2014/03/19/new-ps4-patch-will-enhance-share-and-turn-hdcp-off?utm_campaign=ign+main+twitter&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

Also good they are removing HDCP during gameplay with next patch, also improving HDCP support.

 

[Killroyskbg]

Sony fostering VR as a medium could also lead to consumers experiencing an inferior first impression.

You are forgetting that PC is a fragmented platform. Also, PC games scale with hardware. It isn't something that devs will have to implement (beyond supporting the standard rift driver).

If a refresh rate is 120hz, most games will automatically V-Sync to 120fps. Beyond that, on an SLI rig you can just crank up the visual settings (textures/AF/AA), no extra support needed. Furthermore, if a system isn't capable of 120hz with the eye-candy turned up then you can always crank down the settings fairly easily right?

And lets not forget that Valve are jumping on this. Both Steam and Steambox will likely be an integral force in promoting and driving mainstream adoption of the rift and similar PC based solutions in future. I'm confident that Steam as a platform is large enough to keep the Rift in the limelight so long as it's feature set is superior.

Also Star Citizen on a Rift at a technically superior spec > any Naughty Dog game for me. However, i do agree that Sony will be more reliant on first party titles to make argument for adoption in that space.

I think people with underpowered rigs have a much larger risk of having an inferior first impression. While the PS4 can at least provide the same experience for all consumers this will not be the same for PC. Rift will be a device for PC enthusiast and PSVR for the mainstream at least for several years is my opinion. The need for "casuals" to experiment with settings in order to not have a barf machine tied to their head will keep many away from it.

 

[Tabular]

If Morpheus is a smaller field of view I guess it will be a bit sharper than Oculus at 1080p. That might be a smart trade off for the PS4 seeing as it's fixed hardware.

 

[serversurfer]

I don't think it will be a huge difference. More important is responsiveness because if you notice something in peripheral you could just turn your head.

Trouble is, when you notice something in your peripheral vision, at least initially, you turn your eyes to focus on it, not your head. After your eyes have fixed on it, only then do you rotate your head to follow. It's at this intermediate phase that immersion is broken, because your eyes rotate far enough to see the edge of the display.

That said, while more is obviously better, Abrash seems to think that 90º is sufficient to keep the player immersed.

The HDMI switching is odd, certainly switchers exist, and they're cheap, and changing cables is a pain the ass, so hopefully they provide a solution in the package.

They are including a splitter, and not only does it mirror to the TV, it also "de-distorts" that image so it appears normally to spectators.

The CC low persistence thing is confusing, because yeah, I think the idea it's 72Hz has just appeared and stuck. I was trying to find the source of it last night and couldn't. 72Hz was a standard for CRTs, but I don't know if any cellphone panels are 72Hz, it's not really a standard anymore. Personally I think lines were crossed somewhere, and it's 90 or 120, but that's pure speculation on my part.

Obviously we now have confirmation they're running at 60/72/75 Hz, but just FYI, the 72 Hz figure came from the Valkyrie demo they were running at CES. At one point some debug info appeared on the display, and someone noticed the game was running at 72 fps.

 

[Oppo]

I've edited my post. But basically, just look at the Mars demo. If you're cool with slightly above PS2 visuals on PS4, then yes, VR is possible. Because there's a ton of overhead, and fuck all anybody can do about it. You not only have to render everything twice as with 3D, you have to render everything twice at much higher resolutions to make the end result look good in a VR environment. With the screen that close to your eyes, 2x720p looks like ass, and even 2x1080p isn't enough. Because you're always only going to see, I don't know, 1/9th of the screen? The visible area has to be much bigger than your field of view, and the screen is close as fuck.

Do you maybe want to backtrack on this a little bit, now? 'cause clearly this isn't the case.

 

[ScepticMatt]

If Morpheus is a smaller field of view I guess it will be a bit sharper than Oculus at 1080p. That might be a smart trade off for the PS4 seeing as it's fixed hardware.

Morpheus/DK1 are 90 degree horizontal, DK2 is 100 degree horizontal.