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[Deleted member 1235]

There has to be a victim for there to be victim blaming. That could be either person by the time this all plays out.

exactly my point.

What is this then?

it's me indicating that it's entirely possible that there is not a victim to blame. he may well have been a willing participant. (again, I was not aware he was 15 when I wrote that).

I'm saying it's not outside the realm of possibility that this guy was into a skeevy scene, has regrets now as life didn't turn out the way he though and now wants some quick cash.

these people are all living a pretty dangerous lifestyle, hanging out with young people and partying a lot is bound to lead to extremely murky legal situations.

32 year old hollywood director is flying out a 17 year old to have sex with in a state where it's legal

Nothing weird about that, obviously

it's pretty off, but the issue of how old is old enough is entirely possible to have an opinion on, no matter what the law says. It can even differ by person IMO. Some 16 year olds are ready, others are obviously not.

 

[ivysaur12]

...how would he be the victim of consensual sex?

Okay, first, again, there was crossing state lines, so the federal age of consent law comes into affect, which is 18. That is not consensual sex, that is statutory rape.

Second, the statement in question:

Secondly, this kid went multiple times to hawaii, I don't think he was fully helpless if he was travelling by himself.

assumes that this kid should shoulder the blame for whatever sexual activity transpired. That is victim blaming.

it's me indicating that it's entirely possible that there is not a victim to blame. he may well have been a willing participant. (again, I was not aware he was 15 when I wrote that).

That is not what you said. You said this:

Secondly, this kid went multiple times to hawaii, I don't think he was fully helpless if he was travelling by himself.

Which puts the blame on a potential victim. Choose your words more carefully if that's not what you meant.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

What is this then?

He's not saying that the kid shouldn't have put himself in a such a vulnerable position.

He's saying the kid's version of the story is suspect.

 

[OriginalThinking]

Considering that most victims in these cases are smeared and treated like liars from the get go, I'm not sure that's the best position to take.

Then take a neutral position and don't hope for anything.

By the way (and this isn't aimed at you) Bryan Singer has only been accused. Accusations don't automatically mean guilt. It's concerning that there seems a fair few people in this thread who have decided he is guilty already based on internet hearsay.

 

[Sanjuro]

Okay, first, again, there was crossing state lines, so the federal age of consent law comes into affect, which is 18. That is not consensual sex, that is statutory rape.

Second, the statement in question:



assumes that this kid should shoulder the blame for whatever sexual activity transpired. That is victim blaming.



That is not what you said. You said this:



Which puts the blame on a potential victim. Choose your words more carefully if that's not what you meant.

I've already said that statutory charges are a separate issue entirely in regards to the meat of this subject. So, that is what it is.

Again, he would have to be a victim for that other posters statement to take into effect. Right now there are just PR statements.

 

[ivysaur12]

He's not saying that the kid shouldn't have put himself in a such a vulnerable position.

He's saying the kid's version of the story is suspect.

No, he doesn't. Where is that in that statement? He says this:

Secondly, this kid went multiple times to hawaii, I don't think he was fully helpless if he was travelling by himself.

What about that assumes that it's a suspect situation? It's talking about putting himself in a vulnerable position.

I've already said that statutory charges are a separate issue entirely in regards to the meat of this subject. So, that is what it is.

Again, he would have to be a victim for that other posters statement to take into effect. Right now there are just PR statements.

And again, his statement:

Secondly, this kid went multiple times to hawaii, I don't think he was fully helpless if he was travelling by himself.

Assumes that whatever transpired, he should shoulder the blame. It's victim blaming if you're making assumptions like that. If that's not what he meant, then he should've stated that clearly. But if this is true, it's not the kid's fault at all for going to Hawaii and we can't use that to say that he should bear the burden of what happened.

 

[Sanjuro]

You posted the same post several times, stripping away every other word the other poster has responded with.

Keep stretching.

 

[ivysaur12]

You posted the same post several times, stripping away every other word the other poster has responded with.

Keep stretching.

Here's what I want:

"No, that's not what I meant. You're right, even if the kid willfully went to Hawaii with Bryan, it doesn't absolve Bryan of these accusations if they're true. If these accusations are true, this kid going with Bryan to Hawaii when he was under the age of 18 doesn't put him at fault for anything because we can't expect people under the age of 18 to make rational and logical decisions."

There. It's not hard. It's not assuming guilt. If he meant something different, say it. I haven't seen it yet.

 

[Jack Random]

I remember 14 years ago, back in late 2000, a co-worker told me stories about Singer that he had heard from a friend who worked on x-men that sound extremely similar to what i've been hearing the last few days. I can't imagine it's a coincidence.

 

[Mercury Fred]

I'm not going to blame a 17-year-old for this but I would place quite a lot of blame squarely on the shoulders of his parents/ guardians along with Singer. Obviously Singer is a sleaze bag and he should be held accountable if the accusations are true but I would also hope that the parents take the same amount of heat.

 

[ivysaur12]

I'm not going to blame a 17-year-old for this but I would place quite a lot of blame squarely on the shoulders of his parents/ guardians along with Singer. Obviously Singer is a sleaze bag and he should be held accountable if the accusations are true but I would also hope that the parents take the same amount of heat.

Definitely! But putting blame on a 16 year old kid? No. He shouldn't shoulder any of that if these accusations are true.

 

[Kinyou]

No, but you've been having sex with Singer all this time and didn't know it.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Definitely! But putting blame on a 16 year old kid? No. He shouldn't shoulder any of that if these accusations are true.

I don't blame him either, although I do stand by my statement before that if I were in his shoes at the time I would have jumped at the chance.

 

[TrumanBurbank]

I feel so terrible for these guys used and discarded by these rich guys in Hollywood. Maybe cause Behind the Candelabra is on my mind.

 

[DocSeuss]

...how would he be the victim of consensual sex?

Seriously, what's with the cherry picking? "Okay, so we'll accept the crossing state lines part, but we're going to pretend that being drugged and tortured didn't happen, so what's really all that wrong with this situation?"

Sure. Look. I get it. While it's illegal to cross state lines with a minor and have sex with them, the cultural definition of what underaged is varies, so some people may feel that 17 years old is fine, while other people do not.

But that's not what happened. If it was just that, everything would be okay.

This kid was allegedly:

1) Drugged
2) Drowned whenever he refused oral sex
3) Threatened whenever he refused

This is not consensual in any way, shape, or form, and it is absolutely fucking bizarre that people are cherry-picking the details of the suit, willing to accept that some of it is true and some of it isn't, so that they can blame the victim for going and doing this.

If the suit is true, we're talking about rape, torture, and intimidation. We are not talking about consensual sex. This is a kid repeatedly going to Hawaii with a man who was grooming him through favors, and intimidating him through acts of torture and threats. This isn't "oh yes I want to do this thing I enjoy doing and I'm just a stupid kid who doesn't know any better," this is "Brian Singer will ruin my life if I don't do what he wants, I have to do this."

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Here's what I want:

"No, that's not what I meant. You're right, even if the kid willfully went to Hawaii with Bryan, it doesn't absolve Bryan of these accusations if they're true. If these accusations are true, this kid going with Bryan to Hawaii when he was under the age of 18 doesn't put him at fault for anything because we can't expect people under the age of 18 to make rational and logical decisions."

There. It's not hard. It's not assuming guilt. If he meant something different, say it. I haven't seen it yet.

I've already stated more than once that I don't agree with the bolded. I expect 17 year olds to make rational and logical decisions on a daily basis.

your insisting upon repeatedly quoting one line of one of my posts over and over again is a bit bizarre.

Also, i've stated multiple times that if the accusations are true, then singer is a rapist, with 0 mitigating factors, he forcibly fucked a guy in the ass against his will. IF the accusations are true, the man gets no pity from me and they should feed him to the lions, but I don't for a minute think that this situation will end up being cut and dried. It will be a long drawn out story of many parties, tons of drugs and booze and all manner of dodgy shit, because that's what parties with tons of money and drugs are like.

you're trying to paint me as a 'victim blamer' for some reason and frankly, it's weird.

 

[ivysaur12]

I've already stated more than once that I don't agree with the bolded. I expect 17 year olds to make rational and logical decisions on a daily basis.

your insisting upon repeatedly quoting one line of one of my posts over and over again is a bit bizarre.

Also, i've stated multiple times that if the accusations are true, then singer is a rapist, with 0 mitigating factors, he forcibly fucked a guy in the ass against his will. IF the accusations are true, the man gets no pity from me and they should feed him to the lions, but I don't for a minute think that this situation will end up being cut and dried. It will be a long drawn out story of many parties, tons of drugs and booze and all manner of dodgy shit, because that's what parties with tons of money and drugs are like.

you're trying to paint me as a 'victim blamer' for some reason and frankly, it's weird.

If the accusations are true, do you think Egan is at fault for going to Hawaii with Bryan when he was 16?

 

[GungHo]

no, of course it doesn't.

Where do you live? I'd like to know where it's okay for people to get drugged and then raped while they're passed out so that I can avoid spending any of my tourism dollars.

 

[bengraven]

 

[Sanjuro]

Seriously, what's with the cherry picking? "Okay, so we'll accept the crossing state lines part, but we're going to pretend that being drugged and tortured didn't happen, so what's really all that wrong with this situation?"

Sure. Look. I get it. While it's illegal to cross state lines with a minor and have sex with them, the cultural definition of what underaged is varies, so some people may feel that 17 years old is fine, while other people do not.

But that's not what happened. If it was just that, everything would be okay.

This kid was allegedly:

1) Drugged
2) Drowned whenever he refused oral sex
3) Threatened whenever he refused

This is not consensual in any way, shape, or form, and it is absolutely fucking bizarre that people are cherry-picking the details of the suit, willing to accept that some of it is true and some of it isn't, so that they can blame the victim for going and doing this.

If the suit is true, we're talking about rape, torture, and intimidation. We are not talking about consensual sex. This is a kid repeatedly going to Hawaii with a man who was grooming him through favors, and intimidating him through acts of torture and threats. This isn't "oh yes I want to do this thing I enjoy doing and I'm just a stupid kid who doesn't know any better," this is "Brian Singer will ruin my life if I don't do what he wants, I have to do this."

I think you just cherry picked my post. Well done!

My post was geared at another conversation going on in the thread.

 

[TrAcEr_x90]

My friend is saying there is a big difference between Male Teenagers and Female Teenagers. Also a big difference between a 15 year old vs a 17 year old. But from a males perspective being at that age you just wanna bang anything.

Its hard, on one hand I feel like the law should apply exactly the same whether your a male vs female. But at the same time I remember when I was 17 and hormones going crazy. I almost hooked up with a 21 year old female at 16. To me that would have been awesome, but vice versa it seems weird and creepy. Not sure?

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Where do you live? I'd like to know where it's okay for people to get drugged and then raped while they're passed out so that I can avoid spending any of my tourism dollars.

I just re-read that in confusion. I somehow misread the post and obviously my answer should have been the exact opposite. but you weren't really after a discussion point, because the question

Does your country's definition of rape include putting drugs and alcohol into someone with or without their knowledge in order to make them more compliant for sex?

wasn't really serious.

Also I'd argue that most of us try and get each other boozed so we can fuck. it's kind of the point of bars. without their knowledge is the big no no.

 

[DocSeuss]

I think you just cherry picked my post. Well done!

My post was geared at another conversation going on in the thread.

I've seen multiple posts acting like this was consensual, and I mistook yours for one. Sorry.

Not enough people seem to be aware that this is about torture and intimidation.

 

[anaron]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/custom/Embeds/Bryan Singer Complaint .pdf

"...adult males who visited the M & C Estate
ostensibly for recreational and business purposes. He was advised that those adult males controlled Hollywood and would destroy his hopes and dreams of an acting career if he did not keep them happy. They threatened to “eliminate” him and his family, and told him that they were monitoring not only his phone, but those of his family members, and asserted he would be “destroyed” if he ever disclosed the unconscionable activities that occurred at the Estate.

13. Defendant Singer was present for, and participated in, several of these threatening communications during which he told Plaintiff how the adults who resided in or frequented the M & C Estate controlled Hollywood and could decide whether Plaintiff’s career aspirations and hopes would be realized. Defendant Singer was also present during times when threats were relayed to Plaintiff concerning his and his family’s well-being.

14. The M & C Estate contained a number of bars and was replete with alcohol and drugs. The adults at the M & C Estate strenuously pressured the teenagers who were there, including Plaintiff, to ingest the copiously available drugs and alcohol. Plaintiff was often forced to consume alcoholic beverages and drugs, and was also surreptitiously administered drugs when they were placed in beverages that he consumed. Defendant Singer was often present at the M & C Estate when these drug and alcohol-related activities were occurring and knew, or should have known, that such was taking place.
Defendant Singer Induced Or Coerced Plaintiff Into Sexual Activity

15. During the infamous and degenerate parties at the M & C Estate, the adult males engaged in sexual contacts with the Plaintiff, as well as the other boys present. Plaintiff never freely, voluntarily, and knowingly consented to these sexual interactions, and often resisted them.

16. On several occasions when Plaintiff resisted submitting to sexual contact, Collins-
Rector physically and aggressively held Plaintiff down in order to facilitate his sexual victimization.

17. On an occasion when Plaintiff was being resistant to sexual contact, Collins- Rector called him into the master bedroom of the M & C Estate. Collins-Rector pointed a firearm at Plaintiff and threatened to pull the trigger if his resistance to submitting to sexual contact continued. Collins-Rector then forcibly locked Plaintiff for a period of time in a gun safe which was located in a master bedroom closet.

Collins-Rector is a convicted child molestor

 

[DocSeuss]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/custom/Embeds/Bryan Singer Complaint .pdf

"But it was consensual!"

Thanks for getting the content. I tried looking, but didn't have luck.

 

[Sanjuro]

Then I misread you. I've seen multiple posts acting like this was consensual, and I mistook yours for one.

I've already thrown the statutory thing out the window for the time being.

Right now, there is no evidence saying it wasn't consensual, no victims. You're looking at two statements and a ton of news to come in all probability.

I was really only pointing out people comparing this to James Franco, which is madness.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

17. On an occasion when Plaintiff was being resistant to sexual contact, Collins- Rector called him into the master bedroom of the M & C Estate. Collins-Rector pointed a firearm at Plaintiff and threatened to pull the trigger if his resistance to submitting to sexual contact continued. Collins-Rector then forcibly locked Plaintiff for a period of time in a gun safe which was located in a master bedroom closet.

regardless of the whole 'is it true' thing, that shit is a frightening mental image.

THere are certainly a LOT of stories about hollywood and the dodgy sex stuff. Wonder if this stuff will be like the catholic scandals we're having now in 10 years or so.

 

[kirblar]

My friend is saying there is a big difference between Male Teenagers and Female Teenagers. Also a big difference between a 15 year old vs a 17 year old. But from a males perspective being at that age you just wanna bang anything.

Its hard, on one hand I feel like the law should apply exactly the same whether your a male vs female. But at the same time I remember when I was 17 and hormones going crazy. I almost hooked up with a 21 year old female at 16. To me that would have been awesome, but vice versa it seems weird and creepy. Not sure?

Not to derail, but yes, there's a big difference. The This American Life podcast on testosterone (here) has a recounting of a transgender male's experience w/ undergoing hormone therapy while transitioning that's eye-opening as to the difference in how the genders interact with the world. (It's part II of the transcript.) You can see this expressed in how gays and lesbians have radically different cultures surrounding their relationships.

The issue with Singer really doesn't have much to do with statutory issues - there were many more severe allegations in the report that make that line of debate really mraginal/tangential.

 

[Zen]

Everyone has 18 18 18 drilled in their heads. Franco's girl was legal in NY, and he did not violate the Mann Act by flying her across state lines to circumvent the age of consent laws of the jurisdiction she is domiciled in. To add, she was legal in her homeland anyway. Singer plied his victim with alcohol and raped him.

Absolutely, I was not defending Franco as a means of absolving or excusing Singer.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

There were rumors that this guy was a major cokehead and that he caused all sorts of drama on the sets of the first two X-Men films due to his drug use.

The stuff about him being into twinks is also something that's been going around the gossip blogs for years and years. Nasty rumors about how Shawn Ashmore (Iceman in X2) and Brandon Routh got their respective gigs due to casting couch situations, and also one of the screenwriters behind X2 and Superman Returns.

There are some Hollywood people who are notorious for using the casting couch (Michael Bay, Brett Ratner), so I'm not too shocked Singer was among them.

Would not be at all surprised if these allegations were true.

 

[Ahasverus]

Suddenly the rumor about the gay pornstars on set makes sense.

 

[Liquidsnake]

There were rumors that this guy was a major cokehead and that he caused all sorts of drama on the sets of the first two X-Men films due to his drug use.

The stuff about him being into twinks is also something that's been going around the gossip blogs for years and years. Nasty rumors about how Shawn Ashmore (Iceman in X2) and Brandon Routh got their respective gigs due to casting couch situations, and also one of the screenwriters behind X2 and Superman Returns.

There are some Hollywood people who are notorious for using the casting couch (Michael Bay, Brett Ratner), so I'm not too shocked Singer was among them.

Would not be at all surprised if these allegations were true.

My aunt told me about this years ago. I didn't believe it back in 06.

I do now.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I love how quick everyone is to jump aboard the "he's a gay pedophile"-bandwagon when all we have is a man who is innocent until proven guilty.

Let's ruin someone's life before we actually know whether or not he is guilty, because we're all armchair judges that can rival the best!

 

[Yado]

I love how quick everyone is to jump aboard the "he's a gay pedophile"-bandwagon when all we have is a man who is innocent until proven guilty.

Let's ruin someone's life before we actually know whether or not he is guilty, because we're all armchair judges that can rival the best!

How are gaf posts going to ruin his life?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

How are gaf posts going to ruin his life?

The GAF posts are part of the overall blame culture that ruins the life of innocent men who have been falsely accused of crimes such as these.
It's very hard to wash away the suspicions even if you are found innocent (see: MJ).

 

[G-Fex]

The GAF posts are part of the overall blame culture that ruins the life of innocent men who have been falsely accused of crimes such as these.
It's very hard to wash away the suspicions even if you are found innocent (see: MJ).

WHUH OH, GAFERTAINMENT WEEKLY sitting on the shelf next to STAR magazine going to absolutely tarnish his rep.

 

[Dark Stalkers]

I wonder what the MRAs think of this predicament.

 

[Tookay]

I love how quick everyone is to jump aboard the "he's a gay pedophile"-bandwagon when all we have is a man who is innocent until proven guilty.

Let's ruin someone's life before we actually know whether or not he is guilty, because we're all armchair judges that can rival the best!

In the civil/criminal justice court system.

The court of public opinion works differently and doesn't have to abide by those rules.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I wonder what the MRAs think of this predicament.

 

[Father_Brain]

The GAF posts are part of the overall blame culture that ruins the life of innocent men who have been falsely accused of crimes such as these.
It's very hard to wash away the suspicions even if you are found innocent (see: MJ).

There is an "overall blame culture" when it comes to allegations of sexual assault, but rich and powerful men sure as fuck aren't its primary victims.

 

[boutrosinit]

http://www.thewrap.com/bryan-singer-accused-sexually-abusing-underage-boy

According to some there have been rumblings of this for a long while now and it was just a matter of time. Another wrinkle: age of consent in Hawaii is 16.
EDIT: And to clarify further because some posts seem to not realize (thought bolding would be enough but idk), the abuse allegedly took place in 1998-9.

YIKES.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

I love how quick everyone is to jump aboard the "he's a gay pedophile"-bandwagon when all we have is a man who is innocent until proven guilty.

Let's ruin someone's life before we actually know whether or not he is guilty, because we're all armchair judges that can rival the best!

I don't think he's a pedophile. A drug addict and a rapist, however? Doesn't sound too far-fetched considering the man's rep.

And this has nothing to do with him being gay either - if some young girl came out and said Michael Bay had her do drugs and forced himself on her, I would find that credible too - due to his rep.

 

[FullMetalx117]

If the accusations are true, do you think Egan is at fault for going to Hawaii with Bryan when he was 16?

Don't want to get into the argument too much since I think Singer is a sleazebag and deserves what's coming to him but you're really making it seem like 16 year olds are helpless, fragile children. I was 16 just a few years ago and trust me when I say that 16 year olds are not fragile. You're only 2 years removed from being an adult. Based on the amount of sh*t we did/caused in high school we probably got let off too easy most of the time just because we weren't "adults" yet and you know what? We took advantage of that fact. We knew the worst that could happen to us wouldn't be nearly as bad as if we were 18.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I'm not going to blame a 17-year-old for this but I would place quite a lot of blame squarely on the shoulders of his parents/ guardians along with Singer. Obviously Singer is a sleaze bag and he should be held accountable if the accusations are true but I would also hope that the parents take the same amount of heat.

The parents should take the same amount of heat as the guy who raped their kid? Are you serious? We don't know this kid's housing situation, we don't know about his relationship with his parents. How hard would it be for a big producer/director to get a kid's number, or DM him on twitter, etc etc while the parents have no idea what's going on.

I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect, but I find your position on this pathetic.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Bryan Singer Allegations Part of Upcoming Sex Abuse Documentary

Oscar-nominated director Amy Berg (in photo below) has spent the last two years working on a scandalous new documentary about sex abuse in Hollywood that includes allegations about Bryan Singer (above), Variety has confirmed.

Michael Egan, who filed a lawsuit this week alleging Singer raped him as a teenager, has been cooperating with Berg on her documentary.

The Daily Mail first broke the story about Berg’s film.

It’s unclear if Egan had been interviewed on camera for the film. Amy Berg, who runs Disarming Films, received an Oscar nomination for her 2006 documentary “Deliver Us From Evil,” about sex abuse allegations in the Catholic Church.

She also directed the recent, Peter Jackson-produced West Memphis Three documentary “West of Memphis.”

Berg, who has a feature film at the Tribeca Film Festival (“Every Secret Thing,” written by Nicole Holofcener), could not be reached for comment on this report.

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/bryan-singer-allegations-part-of-upcoming-sex-abuse-documentary-from-oscar-nominated-filmmaker-1201159632/

oh boy

 

[Spinluck]

welp

 

[Son of Cervantes]

Singer is fucked, whether these allegations are true or not.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Singer is fucked, whether these allegations are true or not.

Not really. Hollywood has a very long record of defending this type of behavior behind the scenes. He'll lay low for a bit, come out with a smaller non X-Men film in a couple years, and perhaps even win an Oscar and receive a standing ovation.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

Not really. Hollywood has a very long record of defending this type of behavior behind the scenes. He'll lay low for a bit, come out with a smaller non X-Men film in a couple years, and perhaps even win an Oscar and receive a standing ovation.

This guy's no Polanski with some artistic cred.

He's a director who did one critically acclaimed film when he was starting out and a bunch of commercial stuff later, and he's coming off a number of consecutive flops.

At best, he'll wind up like the kid rapist who directed the Jeepers Creepers movies.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Not really. Hollywood has a very long record of defending this type of behavior behind the scenes. He'll lay low for a bit, come out with a smaller non X-Men film in a couple years, and perhaps even win an Oscar and receive a standing ovation.

I don't like the tone of your post.
We don't know if he's guilty because we haven't actually seen the outcome of a trial.

How would you like it if people hinted at you raping 17-year olds?
Before you've even been given a fair trial?