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NYPD kill a man after he breaks up a fight between others.

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As soon as you can prove to the public that there are no good cops, not a single one. Of course the bad stuff is front and center 1st page news, while good stories are buried on page 22.
Why does anyone have to prove there are no good cops? The cops should prove there are no bad ones.

What's been front and center in America has been continuous pro-cop propaganda since the '80s so people believe they protect and serve when that isn't their primary motivation at all. And I don't necessarily blame that entirely on cops, because the police are such a political and militarized entity here now.
 

Dead Man

Member
As soon as you can prove to the public that there are no good cops, not a single one. Of course the bad stuff is front and center 1st page news, while good stories are buried on page 22.

That's not how it works. Even if there is only 1 bad cop per 100, but the other 99 don't protect the public from that bad cop, then the police are fucked up.
 

Infinite

Member
As soon as you can prove to the public that there are no good cops, not a single one. Of course the bad stuff is front and center 1st page news, while good stories are buried on page 22.

Who's a good cop and who's a bad cop is irrelevant. The institution itself is sick and facilitates police brutality.
 

J-Rzez

Member
Who's a good cop and who's a bad cop is irrelevant. The institution itself is sick and facilitates police brutality.

So first off, are we talking all LEA's or just NYPD?

And what exactly is causing said agency or agencies to facilitate police brutality?
 

Infinite

Member
So first off, are we talking all LEA's or just NYPD?

And what exactly is causing said agency or agencies to facilitate police brutality?

1. Poor training especially in non violent resolutions
2. What constitutes as brutality varies even from precinct to precinct
3. Consquences for misconduct are minimal
4. Settlements are shifted to the tax payers.
5. Minorities are unfairly targeted.
7. Police themselves say misconduct is remarkably widespread but admit that they don't always report it.

Source Through out this thread there have been post with empirical data backing up this claim consistently.
 

krazen

Member
So first off, are we talking all LEA's or just NYPD?

And what exactly is causing said agency or agencies to facilitate police brutality?

Lots of things.

Systematic racism that tends to see people of color as threats and a larger societal issues where lets be honest; their life is seen a bit more disposable than lets say an 'upstanding' citizen of a lighter persuasion.

Your whole argument of WE DON'T FOCUS ON THE BAD LEA is the problem. While these stories get 24 hours worth of press what happens? People with similar attitudes like you sit in the jury five months after the outrage, say to yourself "Well, every cop I ever ran into was awesome" and give them the benefit of the doubt despite the overwhelming evidence.

Which eventually leads to no criminal charges, no real disciplinary action or change within the force because they were found innocent..and the city ends up paying a check a few years down the line in a civil suit after everyone has forgotten as if it makes up for someone losing a parent, friend or son.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Since I have seeing this pop up a few times, again ... not saying he deserved this, or even that the laws are just (personally think all drugs should be legal and taxed) ... but if we are going to discuss, perhaps the facts would be good.

From the earlier linked article

"Police officials said Garner had a history of arrests for selling untaxed cigarettes. Cops said they observed him selling his wares Thursday on Bay St. and moved in for an arrest."

followed by

"Records show Garner was due in court in October on three Staten Island cases, including charges of pot possession and possession or selling untaxed cigarettes."

source

the arrest was not due to fight that he had broken up.

Why the fuck would he be selling cigarettes in front of the cops? That makes no sense.

"I just broke up a fight, I'm waiting for the cops to come...better sell some cigarettes in the next 5 minutes real quick!"

That's unlikely. If they were coming up to him to arrest him because they saw him selling cigarettes they would have broken up the fight themselves because they would have been right there watching well before the fight happened.

But maybe they saw him selling from a mile away with high powered binoculars. He is a wild black beast with unpredictable rage instincts.
 

J-Rzez

Member
1. Poor training especially in non violent resolutions
2. What constitutes as brutality varies even from precinct to precinct
3. Consquences for misconduct are minimal
4. Settlements are shifted to the tax payers.
5. Minorities are unfairly targeted.
7. Police themselves say misconduct is remarkably widespread but admit that they don't always report it.

Source Through out this thread there have been post with empirical data backing up this claim consistently.

We don't have to go far here because it boils down to the basics, training, and funding. Like I said, better salaries and benefits will attract more qualified personnel. Next, more funding allows for better/more training. Until those are addressed, things will continue to go no where.

One thing makes me laugh though from that article:

"While national legislation would likely only complicate matters further, local or state-wide ballot propositions should allow the public—not the police—to define reasonable use of force."

No. Once again, as exhibited in many places, some people believe that when you become a LEO your life is forfeit, and that you have no right to defend yourself, or to do your job effectively. Sure, all LEO's take an oath, but if you think for one minute that a cop is going to lose his life over some scumbag breaking even a minor law, forget that. You are going to lose even MORE good, smart officers, who know they can't even defend themselves anymore. Good luck with that.

Do some cops target minorities? Sure. But some people do that in all positions/job types in this world. Do other cops just target and hate scumbags of any color? Yep. And are some just bitter with the thankless job they do to get bad-mouthed by better than thous? Yes.

You want a better police force? Then put your money where your mouth is and pay up the tax dollars. Check "yes" on your next ballot to giving additional funding to law enforcement instead of whittling away at their salaries and equipment. "Naw, just let them try to get another year or two out of that old vest that already expired".
 

Baron Aloha

A Shining Example
Shit like that generates revenue for the city.

Its probably nothing compared to how much money the city would save by not paying the salaries for all of these officers, not to mention the money they will have to (hopefully) pay in the civil suits that result from the actions of said officers.
 
We don't have to go far here because it boils down to the basics, training, and funding. Like I said, better salaries and benefits will attract more qualified personnel. Next, more funding allows for better/more training. Until those are addressed, things will continue to go no where.

One thing makes me laugh though from that article:

"While national legislation would likely only complicate matters further, local or state-wide ballot propositions should allow the public—not the police—to define reasonable use of force."

No. Once again, as exhibited in many places, some people believe that when you become a LEO your life is forfeit, and that you have no right to defend yourself, or to do your job effectively. Sure, all LEO's take an oath, but if you think for one minute that a cop is going to lose his life over some scumbag breaking even a minor law, forget that. You are going to lose even MORE good, smart officers, who know they can't even defend themselves anymore. Good luck with that.

Do some cops target minorities? Sure. But some people do that in all positions/job types in this world. Do other cops just target and hate scumbags of any color? Yep. And are some just bitter with the thankless job they do to get bad-mouthed by better than thous? Yes.

You want a better police force? Then put your money where your mouth is and pay up the tax dollars. Check "yes" on your next ballot to giving additional funding to law enforcement instead of whittling away at their salaries and equipment. "Naw, just let them try to get another year or two out of that old vest that already expired".

And what if people are already ticking the ballot for more money and resources for the police in the last election? Can they voice out their disappointment in this thread, then, that a number of law enforcement officers have abused their powers that had resulted in unfortunate deaths of civilians?

Poor, poor good cops. With their old, worn out, expired vests :( ... if only we, the general tax-paying public, had learned our lesson, this alleged untaxed cigarette seller would not have died.
 
We don't have to go far here because it boils down to the basics, training, and funding. Like I said, better salaries and benefits will attract more qualified personnel. Next, more funding allows for better/more training. Until those are addressed, things will continue to go no where.

One thing makes me laugh though from that article:

"While national legislation would likely only complicate matters further, local or state-wide ballot propositions should allow the public—not the police—to define reasonable use of force."

No. Once again, as exhibited in many places, some people believe that when you become a LEO your life is forfeit, and that you have no right to defend yourself, or to do your job effectively. Sure, all LEO's take an oath, but if you think for one minute that a cop is going to lose his life over some scumbag breaking even a minor law, forget that. You are going to lose even MORE good, smart officers, who know they can't even defend themselves anymore. Good luck with that.

Do some cops target minorities? Sure. But some people do that in all positions/job types in this world. Do other cops just target and hate scumbags of any color? Yep. And are some just bitter with the thankless job they do to get bad-mouthed by better than thous? Yes.

You want a better police force? Then put your money where your mouth is and pay up the tax dollars. Check "yes" on your next ballot to giving additional funding to law enforcement instead of whittling away at their salaries and equipment. "Naw, just let them try to get another year or two out of that old vest that already expired".

Is there a particular reason why regular beat officers are now getting tactical gear vests and MP5s for doing event coverage or even responding to calls?

Because nothing screams "I'm here to kill civvies" then seeing that.

We also don't get a voting say in police chain of command? I sure as fuck didn't vote for Commissioner Bratton.
 
As soon as you can prove to the public that there are no good cops, not a single one.

"As soon as you can prove to the public that there are no good Stazi, not a single one."

"As soon as you can prove to the public that there are no good Checka, not a single one."

"As soon as you can prove to the public that there are no good KGB, not a single one."

No one gives a shit. If your organization is racist, abusive, and oppressive, the individual character of any member is irrelevant. Also, as I noted before, this whole argument is a bullshit derailing tactic:

The "few bad apples" argument has to be retired, or we have to come up with a new definition for the word 'few':

Farrar and his small police force have become the poster boys of body-worn cameras...

...the year-long trial period ending in February saw an 88 percent drop in complaints against police and a 60 percent reduction in uses of force by the police. And these steep declines occurred even though the cameras were in use only about half the time.​

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/08/nypd-cameras-rialto-farrar-bloomberg.html

In 2011, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 685,724 times.
605,328 were totally innocent (88 percent).
350,743 were black (53 percent).
223,740 were Latino (34 percent).
61,805 were white (9 percent).
341,581 were aged 14-24 (51 percent).​

http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data

The Los Angeles Police Commission is investigating how half of the recording antennas in the Southeast Division went missing, seemingly as a way to evade new self-monitoring procedures that the Los Angeles Police Department imposed last year.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/lapd-cops-disabling-recorders-cops-either-them/


There were 10,000 abuse complaints filed against the Chicago PD between 2002 and 2004

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/seven-reasons-police-brutality-is-systematic-not-anecdotal/

Criticisms against the entire police force are not generalizations, they are backed by empirical data.
 

Infinite

Member
We don't have to go far here because it boils down to the basics, training, and funding. Like I said, better salaries and benefits will attract more qualified personnel. Next, more funding allows for better/more training. Until those are addressed, things will continue to go no where.

One thing makes me laugh though from that article:

"While national legislation would likely only complicate matters further, local or state-wide ballot propositions should allow the public—not the police—to define reasonable use of force."

No. Once again, as exhibited in many places, some people believe that when you become a LEO your life is forfeit, and that you have no right to defend yourself, or to do your job effectively. Sure, all LEO's take an oath, but if you think for one minute that a cop is going to lose his life over some scumbag breaking even a minor law, forget that. You are going to lose even MORE good, smart officers, who know they can't even defend themselves anymore. Good luck with that.

Do some cops target minorities? Sure. But some people do that in all positions/job types in this world. Do other cops just target and hate scumbags of any color? Yep. And are some just bitter with the thankless job they do to get bad-mouthed by better than thous? Yes.

You want a better police force? Then put your money where your mouth is and pay up the tax dollars. Check "yes" on your next ballot to giving additional funding to law enforcement instead of whittling away at their salaries and equipment. "Naw, just let them try to get another year or two out of that old vest that already expired".

*throws arms in the air*
 
It's really interesting to see someone tirelessly defending police officers in a thread about police misconduct which has ended in someone's murder. It's nice to know that we can start stamping out these ridiculous rights violations that are opposite of what slime like this sign up for to begin with by simply paying more money. I'm sure these facts will help this man's family and the countless others who have been violated by the police feel better about the situation.

#notallcops
 

Baron Aloha

A Shining Example

I'm not surprised. It will probably be a billion dollars a year before you know it if this keeps up. Its a colossal waste of money...something like $85-95 per person per year. And for what? Does anyone actually feel safer?

I just heard on the news that these guys punishment is to be sent back to training as the choke hold is banned.

So basically a paid vacation (in every job I've ever had 'training' was like a day off).
 
And what exactly is causing said agency or agencies to facilitate police brutality?

The American police force is a militarized organization tasked with maintaing income inequality. That's what "Law and Order" actually means. They exist to prevent the kind of violence that broke out during the French revolution and other uprisings. They do this by aggressively projecting force in the poorest and most marginalized communities (primarily made up of people of color) because those communities would otherwise be a hotbed for dissent and rebellion - as we saw in the 1960's. This is why the NYPD felt the need to beat the shit out of a bunch of twenty year-olds protesting in a park when Occupy Wall Street happened. OWS was trying to upend income inequality, so it had to be stomped out with extreme prejudice.
 

Jacob

Member
To imply that that is indicative of the behavior of most police officers in America is nonsense.

Are some police officers bad people? Sure.
Are most police officers bad people? No.

Police brutality is an institutional problem in America, or at the very least, in jurisdictions like NYC. It goes way beyond "bad apples".
 
We don't have to go far here because it boils down to the basics, training, and funding. Like I said, better salaries and benefits will attract more qualified personnel. Next, more funding allows for better/more training. Until those are addressed, things will continue to go no where.

One thing makes me laugh though from that article:

"While national legislation would likely only complicate matters further, local or state-wide ballot propositions should allow the public—not the police—to define reasonable use of force."

No. Once again, as exhibited in many places, some people believe that when you become a LEO your life is forfeit, and that you have no right to defend yourself, or to do your job effectively. Sure, all LEO's take an oath, but if you think for one minute that a cop is going to lose his life over some scumbag breaking even a minor law, forget that. You are going to lose even MORE good, smart officers, who know they can't even defend themselves anymore. Good luck with that.

Do some cops target minorities? Sure. But some people do that in all positions/job types in this world. Do other cops just target and hate scumbags of any color? Yep. And are some just bitter with the thankless job they do to get bad-mouthed by better than thous? Yes.

You want a better police force? Then put your money where your mouth is and pay up the tax dollars. Check "yes" on your next ballot to giving additional funding to law enforcement instead of whittling away at their salaries and equipment. "Naw, just let them try to get another year or two out of that old vest that already expired".

You're asking a group of people who believe an organization is being corrupt just to pour some money into it and hope they'll get better? Money alone can't do shit, there needs to be an actual FULL infrastructure change to stop these stories from happening.
 

sora87

Member
So if you want to murder someone for no reason and get away with it, just become a cop? Holy fuck. This is really terrifying.
 

commedieu

Banned
We don't have to go far here because it boils down to the basics, training, and funding. Like I said, better salaries and benefits will attract more qualified personnel. Next, more funding allows for better/more training. Until those are addressed, things will continue to go no where.

One thing makes me laugh though from that article:

"While national legislation would likely only complicate matters further, local or state-wide ballot propositions should allow the public—not the police—to define reasonable use of force."

No. Once again, as exhibited in many places, some people believe that when you become a LEO your life is forfeit, and that you have no right to defend yourself, or to do your job effectively. Sure, all LEO's take an oath, but if you think for one minute that a cop is going to lose his life over some scumbag breaking even a minor law, forget that. You are going to lose even MORE good, smart officers, who know they can't even defend themselves anymore. Good luck with that.

Do some cops target minorities? Sure. But some people do that in all positions/job types in this world. Do other cops just target and hate scumbags of any color? Yep. And are some just bitter with the thankless job they do to get bad-mouthed by better than thous? Yes.

You want a better police force? Then put your money where your mouth is and pay up the tax dollars. Check "yes" on your next ballot to giving additional funding to law enforcement instead of whittling away at their salaries and equipment. "Naw, just let them try to get another year or two out of that old vest that already expired".

You have 0 experience with real life.
 

trixx

Member
r.i.p.

This really gets me mad, they should never work for the police force again. The public needs to make this happen
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
Watching it again it's sad. Unfortunately due to the protocol in place for restraining a subject, it seems like cops have to act fast and subdue as there are equally sad cases when the top gets killed or beat up by a criminal. In this case, it seems like the choke hold was held on and then they pounced on the guy and basically pressed him to the floor. Sad that it had to come to that.
 

Dead Man

Member
Watching it again it's sad. Unfortunately due to the protocol in place for restraining a subject, it seems like cops have to act fast and subdue as there are equally sad cases when the top gets killed or beat up by a criminal. In this case, it seems like the choke hold was held on and then they pounced on the guy and basically pressed him to the floor. Sad that it had to come to that.

Chokeholds being dangerous and positional asphyxiation are not new ideas. There are a lot of techniques for restraining people that don't involve the same risks.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
Chokeholds being dangerous and positional asphyxiation are not new ideas. There are a lot of techniques for restraining people that don't involve the same risks.

Not disagreeing there. It's unfortunately a measure that has to be taken a lot because more times than not, there is a dangerous suspect that can have a knife or gun and a cop will get beat or lose his life as well. It's not a win, win situation unfortunately.
 

Dead Man

Member
Not disagreeing there. It's unfortunately a measure that has to be taken a lot because more times than not, there is a dangerous suspect that can have a knife or gun and a cop will get beat or lose his life as well. It's not a win, win situation unfortunately.

No, chokeholds are not a measure that has to be taken.
 

Infinite

Member
Not disagreeing there. It's unfortunately a measure that has to be taken a lot because more times than not, there is a dangerous suspect that can have a knife or gun and a cop will get beat or lose his life as well. It's not a win, win situation unfortunately.

The NYPD is banned from doing chokeholds
 

Dead Man

Member
Physical restraint or use of force of any kind. I'm not debating on whether or not it should be used but a lot of times it does have to be deployed.

Yes, and what is your point. Of course restraint needs to be applied. There are wrong ways and right ways of doing that. Wrong ways kill people. Right ways don't kill anyone, neither those restrained or police.
 
My god.

His voice, the way it sounded, they had to FUCKING KNOW he was in serious trouble. I can't remember what it's called, but that's like, textbook 'about to die cause they can't breath' shit right there. Ugh. Aren't they trained for this shit? And then to just sit there for ages and let him fucking die.

Did they crush his hyoidal bone or was the asthma/pressure on his chest what killed him?
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
Yes, and what is your point. Of course restraint needs to be applied. There are wrong ways and right ways of doing that. Wrong ways kill people. Right ways don't kill anyone, neither those restrained or police.
It's sad but as noted before, many times some kind of force or other means such as a taser or mace are needed. And in some cases if the cop/s don't subdue a suspect then it could be their life at end and many times the suspects don't care and kill good cops.

Their punishment is going back to basic training.

One would hope not.
 

Weiss

Banned
If you can't resolve a situation like this without fucking murdering somebody, you don't deserve to be an officer.

"bah cops have it so hard." Enough with that bullshit. If you put on the uniform, you have an obligation to be a model example to everyone around you. If you can't, then fuck right off.

I say this as somebody who has only ever had the most cordial experiences with police officers, but maybe that's just a Canadian thing.
 

commedieu

Banned
My god.

His voice, the way it sounded, they had to FUCKING KNOW he was in serious trouble. I can't remember what it's called, but that's like, textbook 'about to die cause they can't breath' shit right there. Ugh. Aren't they trained for this shit? And then to just sit there for ages and let him fucking die.

Did they crush his hyoidal bone or was the asthma/pressure on his chest what killed him?

The NYPD is banned from doing chokeholds

.
 

commedieu

Banned
He needs a little harsher punishment than that.

They found no wrong doing because they claim he took a fight stance with them.. i think thats what I've gathered.

AKA typical "negro coming right at us"

slap on the wrist.

And people whine about police being wrongfully generalized for getting away with murder.
 

Dead Man

Member
It's sad but as noted before, many times some kind of force or other means such as a taser or mace are needed. And in some cases if the cop/s don't subdue a suspect then it could be their life at end and many times the suspects don't care and kill good cops.



One would hope not.

What the fuck are you talking about? Yes, force needs to be used. Nobody has said force should never be used. Appropriate force and safe force are what should be applied.

Your posts are just full of weaseling.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
What the fuck are you talking about? Yes, force needs to be used. Nobody has said force should never be used. Appropriate force and safe force are what should be applied.

Your posts are just full of weaseling.

I'm done with you. No insult for you or bad language.
 
They found no wrong doing because they claim he took a fight stance with them.. i think thats what I've gathered.

AKA typical "negro coming right at us"

slap on the wrist.

And people whine about police being wrongfully generalized for getting away with murder.

It's more important that we established that there are some under-appreciated good cops in threads such as these, where civilians' lives had been lost.

It's very bad not to speak up for these good cops, and to stand in the face of the storm of ignorant posters who too liberally generalize in their posts.
 

danwarb

Member
Not disagreeing there. It's unfortunately a measure that has to be taken a lot because more times than not, there is a dangerous suspect that can have a knife or gun and a cop will get beat or lose his life as well. It's not a win, win situation unfortunately.
Police are not allowed to do that here (UK). They don't have guns or tazers either.
 
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