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NYPD kill a man after he breaks up a fight between others.

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D

Don't Laugh

Banned
J-Rzez said:
You want a better police force? Then put your money where your mouth is and pay up the tax dollars. Check "yes" on your next ballot to giving additional funding to law enforcement instead of whittling away at their salaries and equipment. "Naw, just let them try to get another year or two out of that old vest that already expired".
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tell me this is sarcasm
 
N

Narpas Sword0

Member
LiquidMetal14 said:
Watching it again it's sad. Unfortunately due to the protocol in place for restraining a subject, it seems like cops have to act fast and subdue as there are equally sad cases when the top gets killed or beat up by a criminal. In this case, it seems like the choke hold was held on and then they pounced on the guy and basically pressed him to the floor. Sad that it had to come to that.
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It is not equally sad. Police sign on for a job and accept that risk. This dude was standing on a sidewalk and should not have been exposed to risk. He also was not doing anything that called for acting fast or being subdued.
 
C

commedieu

Banned
YesNOnoNOYes said:
It's more important that we established that there are some under-appreciated good cops in threads such as these, where civilians' lives had been lost.

It's very bad not to speak up for these good cops, and to stand in the face of the storm of ignorant posters who too liberally generalize in their posts.
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Go to page 4 for this identical nonsensical argument. And my response...

Its fucking groundhogs day in this thread with people coming to educate all the ignorant posters on the dangers of generalizing.

Who do you think you're informing? Do you think people don't know what you're posting? For fucks sake.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
Analyzing police in purely individualistic terms misses the point that police are an institutional force. Even if you get them to act like human beings like they do in, I don't know, Iceland rather than act like wild animals as they often do in the US, their sole purpose is still protecting the established order. The more rotten the order is, the more rotten the force will be - but even if they are personally nice and non-militarized, their primary purpose will never be to protect you, it's to keep the population in line.

There would need to be massive change in US political culture and the motivations and economics that drive police before any kind of pacification of law enforcement can begin.
 
N

Narpas Sword0

Member
LiquidMetal, can you go into the Ukraine thread and remind everyone that surface to air missiles serve an important purpose in a military force and they aren't all bad?

Also if you find a rape thread remind people that safe sex is a healthy part of life.

I just want to make sure every thread gets both sides of these important issues.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
LiquidMetal14 said:
PM me as I don't think I said anything out of line. I'm as upset about this as anyone else.
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I'm not going to PM you, sorry, I prefer to thrash out a problem in plain view. I am going to say that you seem to be taking a weird position. Everyone in the universe agrees that sometimes force needs to be used. But everyone with a modicum of intelligence should see that there are safe ways to do that and unsafe ways to do that. All you have been repeating are semi contradictory statements saying 'force must be used' and 'these police should be punished'. You haven't agreed (as far as I have seen) that some techniques are unsafe and should not be used regardless. I have not seen you acknowledge there are very effective techniques which pose much less risk of harm to the person being subdued.

If that is not correct, apologies.

Air Zombie Meat said:
Lets see what the verified law enforcement professionals on policeone are saying about this:

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7385823-Video-NY-man-dies-in-struggle-during-arrest-/

At the time of posting this only one comment sees a problem with the behaviour in the video. The rest are the typical excuse making, victim blaming shit we always see on that site. #notallcopsjustmostofthem
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Ugh.
Repeting " I can't breath " means he's breathing.
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No id doesn't you ignorant fucks. It means he is exhaling.
 
J

J10

Banned
A

Air Zombie Meat

Member
Yeah the logic they're all using means you're pretty much fucked if you ever find yourself being asphyxiated by police. You can't tell them that you are because that means you're breathing. So I guess you just have to lie there and take it.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
Air Zombie Meat said:
Yeah the logic they're all using means you're pretty much fucked if you ever find yourself being asphyxiated by police. You can't tell them that you are because that means you're breathing. So I guess you just have to lie there and take it.
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It's the victim's fault for not knowing sign language!
 
Y

YesNOnoNOYes

Member
commedieu said:
Go to page 4 for this identical nonsensical argument. And my response...

Its fucking groundhogs day in this thread with people coming to educate all the ignorant posters on the dangers of generalizing.

Who do you think you're informing? Do you think people don't know what you're posting? For fucks sake.
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mine was sarcasm .__.
 
R

rjinaz

Member
Air Zombie Meat said:
Lets see what the verified law enforcement professionals on policeone are saying about this:

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7385823-Video-NY-man-dies-in-struggle-during-arrest-/

At the time of posting this only one comment sees a problem with the behaviour in the video. The rest are the typical excuse making, victim blaming shit we always see on that site. #notallcopsjustmostofthem
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Those comments all come from cops? Holy hell no wonder things like this happen. In their minds it's perfectly acceptable it seems. It's this guy's fault obviously for being fat, and screaming he can't breath. I mean if he wanted the police to know he couldn't breath he should have kept his mouth shut because if you can talk you can obviously breath. It all makes sense now.
 
LiquidMetal14

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
Dead Man said:
I'm not going to PM you, sorry, I prefer to thrash out a problem in plain view. I am going to say that you seem to be taking a weird position. Everyone in the universe agrees that sometimes force needs to be used. But everyone with a modicum of intelligence should see that there are safe ways to do that and unsafe ways to do that. All you have been repeating are semi contradictory statements saying 'force must be used' and 'these police should be punished'. You haven't agreed (as far as I have seen) that some techniques are unsafe and should not be used regardless. I have not seen you acknowledge there are very effective techniques which pose much less risk of harm to the person being subdued.

If that is not correct, apologies.
.
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Fair enough. This isn't something I want to vigorously debate as I still stand behind my words and have clarified but it's fair to say the situation wasn't handled in the best manner even if the guy had prior offenses.
 
K

kame-sennin

Member
Air Zombie Meat said:
Lets see what the verified law enforcement professionals on policeone are saying about this:

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7385823-Video-NY-man-dies-in-struggle-during-arrest-/
Click to expand...

OK, so here's what I saw, an officer being pushed against a large plate glass window by an extremely large, actively resisting male, clearly a very dangerous situation for the officer, and one that needed to get addressed immediately. An officer used a choke hold for a matter of a few seconds to get him on the ground, once on the ground he pushed his face toward the ground to gain compliance as the male was still resisting. I didn't see a single punch thrown. When someone is talking, especially repeatedly, they are breathing, it is a well known ploy of resistive subjects to claim a physical ailment so officers will let up, at which time they amp up their resistive behavior in an attempt to escape or assault an officer. As long as the arrest or lawful detention is justified, which was not recorded (or at least provided), I don't see anything wrong with this. It does suck that the guy died, and it certainly wasn't the intention of the officers to have him die, but at the same time, it wasn't their fault. Here comes the lawsuit.

By the way, where's Al Sharpton when the New Jersey officer was ambushed and murdered, where's his outrage over the mother's insensitive and inflammatory statements. Where's his condemnation of the gang members swearing revenge on other officers. Oh, wait, there's probably no money coming in on that one. My bad.
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That hold wasn't on there long at all. And it appeared to be a cardio vascular neck restraint. Might have got a little arm across momentarily because of the height differential. I'm sure they weren't carrying a medical history on the guy. He also appeared to be trying to intimidate them into leaving him alone to carry on his criminal enterprise.
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He couldn't breathe because he is 350 lbs of LARD!!!
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Repeting " I can't breath " means he's breathing.
I guess should have just walked away and tell him to turm himself in, which I'm SURE he Would have.
HE caused the heart attack not complying with the police and resisting THEM.
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#notallcops
 
T

travisbickle

Member
A large part of the population in America would prefer to have a criminal point a gun at them than a cop, because the believe the criminal is more sympathetic and reasonable.
 
A

Air Zombie Meat

Member
I love the idea that he was going to amp up his resistive behaviour (which in this case was trying not to die) with five cops sat on him. And he was intimidating them? What a joke. They weren't exactly small themselves.
 
D

Donos

Member
commedieu said:
police shoot people handcuffed too..

Next subject you wanna bring up? It doesn't make sense because the police are out of control in america.

screen_shot_20140618_at_7.50.52_am.png.CROP.rtstory-large.50.52_am.png


http://www.theroot.com/articles/cul...s_police_fatally_shooting_handcuffed_man.html

June 18 2014 7:56 AM
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That was a shitty situation all around but the picture let it seem like a execution while the video at 1:45 shows how fucked up it was and the officer also is suprised of the weapon discharge.
In the video, when Saenz pushes off of the curb, the movement allegedly sent the guard flying back, his arm hitting Flores' trigger hand, leading to the discharge of the weapon
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That is clearly visible at 1:45. What he could gain by pulling out a gun, i don't know though.
 
L

Loofy

Member
Just imagine if he successfully defended himself from being choked to death he'd most likely be charged with attacking a police officer and be in jail for a very long time.
 
K

kame-sennin

Member
Loofy said:
Just imagine if he successfully defended himself from being choked to death he'd most likely be charged with attacking a police officer and be in jail for a very long time.
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Yup. The courts have basically outlawed self defense if your attacker is a police officer.
 
V

Vicetrailia

Member
Air Zombie Meat said:
Lets see what the verified law enforcement professionals on policeone are saying about this:

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7385823-Video-NY-man-dies-in-struggle-during-arrest-/

At the time of posting this only one comment sees a problem with the behaviour in the video. The rest are the typical excuse making, victim blaming shit we always see on that site. #notallcopsjustmostofthem
Click to expand...

I never should have read those comments. Why am I surprised.
 
S

seanoff

Member
Why so many police for a simple fight? Is that the normal response?

The force is obviously unreasonable. They killed an unarmed man.

Jesus.
 
D

DC R1D3R

Banned
Donos said:
That was a shitty situation all around but the picture let it seem like a execution while the video at 1:45 shows how fucked up it was and the officer also is suprised of the weapon discharge. That is clearly visible at 1:45. What he could gain by pulling out a gun, i don't know though.
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he just wanted to feel like a man?
 
D

Deleted member 30609

Unconfirmed Member
I challenge anyone to read Taibbi's "The Divide" and defend NYPD behavior in quote "lower-class" areas. This is outrageous.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
These idiots knew what they were doing. They could have easily tazed this dude. The way the first guy just comes up from behind is ridiculous.
 
C

Chariot

Member
HP_Wuvcraft said:
These idiots knew what they were doing. They could have easily tazed this dude. The way the first guy just comes up from behind is ridiculous.
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Or for that matter go down from him after they brought him to ground and cuffed him. I mean, what the hell, what was he supposed to do? A heavy man like him does not have an easy time standing up with his hands cuffed.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Chariot said:
Or for that matter go down from him after they brought him to ground and cuffed him. I mean, what the hell, what was he supposed to do? A heavy man like him does not have an easy time standing up with his hands cuffed.
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I used to think police brutality was an extreme thing. Now, in the age of the internet, I'm seeing videos of police beating the shit out of people just because. I mean, beating the shit out of people. That one video of the cop just going to town on a gay student because they dared talk to a protestor was insane.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
What's with the use of chokeholds? I'm not surprised someone can die using those things. You're obstructing their breathing. They should be banned.
 
K

Kastrioti

Persecution Complex
How do we know those accounts on Policeone are verified police accounts? Because holy shit if they are. And if they are shouldn't they be held accountable by some of there quotes because they are a detriment to the police force and society as a whole.

And saw the video last night. So tough to watch. I hope the cop gets charged with murder but that is unlikely. = /
 
The Cowboy

The Cowboy

Member
richiek said:
NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio and Police Commissioner Bill Bratton hold press conference on the incident:

http://7online.com/news/mayor-hold-press-conference-on-staten-island-mans-death/199186/
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This bit is blooming annoying/infuriating.
I want to note something that is true every day in New York City--the men and women of the NYPD are handed an enormous responsibility. The responsibility of keeping us safe, but also the responsibility of making very difficult, split-second decisions in trying circumstances. It is too early to jump to any conclusions about this case--we must wait for all the facts and details of the incident to emerge. But I assure all New Yorkers, there will be a full and thorough investigation.
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We have a video of it, we can see exactly what happened for god sake.
 
C

Chariot

Member
richiek said:
NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio and Police Commissioner Bill Bratton hold press conference on the incident:

http://7online.com/news/mayor-hold-press-conference-on-staten-island-mans-death/199186/
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So, they just promised to have a "transparent" and "serious" investigation. Not much here

But, what sticks with me: the officiers (and they're only have two in the eye, despite the video showing more) are not suspended, they're at desk jobs as long as the investigation goes. Despite the fact that they recognized that chokeholds are illegal for NYCPD and of course the murder itself.

They also keep saying how dangerous the area is and that people complained about the man selling cigarrettes illegally. No words on the thing that he didn't even had cigarettes with him. Somebody asked why the police needed so many people for this one guy and they answered that they can't leave community concerns unanswered and that they expected such a move (bringing many officiers, not chokehold) from them.
 
N

Narpas Sword0

Member
HP_Wuvcraft said:
These idiots knew what they were doing. They could have easily tazed this dude. The way the first guy just comes up from behind is ridiculous.
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He could have died from that too.

What they could have done is left him the fuck alone. Or if they absolutely had to take him in (they didn't, the cop could barely identify the supposed buyer of the cigarette), they could have verbally calmed him down instead if immediately shifting to physical violence.
 
B

Brawly Likes to Brawl

Member
Chariot said:
So, they just promised to have a "transparent" and "serious" investigation. Not much here

But, what sticks with me: the officiers (and they're only have two in the eye, despite the video showing more) are not suspended, they're at desk jobs as long as the investigation goes. Despite the fact that they recognized that chokeholds are illegal for NYCPD and of course the murder itself.

They also keep saying how dangerous the area is and that people complained about the man selling cigarrettes illegally. No words on the thing that he didn't even had cigarettes with him. Somebody asked why the police needed so many people for this one guy and they answered that they can't leave community concerns unanswered and that they expected such a move (bringing many officiers, not chokehold) from them.
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Its insane how someone can still keep their job after they kill someone using a technique that's prohibited by their department. With video evidence pointing out that they were in the wrong too. It just goes to show you how deeply rooted the enabling and lack of accountability there is in brutality cases.
 
I

ItIsOkBro

Member
Air Zombie Meat said:
Lets see what the verified law enforcement professionals on policeone are saying about this:

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7385823-Video-NY-man-dies-in-struggle-during-arrest-/

At the time of posting this only one comment sees a problem with the behaviour in the video. The rest are the typical excuse making, victim blaming shit we always see on that site. #notallcopsjustmostofthem
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Holy crap these are cops, I can't believe it, it reads like Youtube comments.

Sometimes I wonder what 'investigation' really means. I mean, it's right there in the article. He employed a chokehold, chokeholds are prohibited by the NYPD guide. Investigation over.
 
Paracelsus

Paracelsus

Member
But really, they have the means to restrain somebody on their own, they are armed yet they attack like people are stress toys. Would a class action lawsuit work against these people?
 
M

MikeDown

Banned
I don't see how anyone can defend these cops, the man was on the ground crying for help. It doesn't take any training to know something wasn't right, and yet they kept at it. All of them deserve equal retribution.
 
C

Chariot

Member
Paracelsus said:
But really, they have the means to restrain somebody on their own, they are armed yet they attack like people are stress toys. Would a class action lawsuit work against these people?
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In the statement they said they came for the man anyway and he "resisted" and had to be taken in custody.
 
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