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[Lambtron]

Okay the reality of the situation is that people are fucking creeps and they're going to take your picture if you're in cosplay without your consent. But that doesn't make it a non-issue. In fact, I think that's exactly why this conversation should be happening. It's rude at best and harassment at worst. Walk up to someone and ask them if you can take their picture.

The answer isn't telling women they shouldn't dress in revealing clothing or saying that they shouldn't be a part of Comic Con. People should understand that cosplay is not consent and not be pieces of shit.

 

[ultron87]

Aside from upskirt shots creepy pictures are not illegal. A stranger can take a pic of you or your SO in a public park and you can't do anything about it. Unless the public place has rules in place about no pics allowed, like some beaches, in public places people are allowed to take whatever pic they want of people.

The idea is that Comic Con isn't a "public" place once people are inside the hall. The organizers absolutely have the power to make rules about this stuff and kick people out if they don't abide by it. It doesn't help if you are walking down the street to get to the convention, but it is still something they should have on record in a more noticeable fashion than a general "no harassment" line.

 

[DrGonzo615]

I dont understand what they're trying to accomplish, as I'm fairly sure nonconsensual groping and such is already against the rules.

Are they just trying to raise awareness?

Not to mention AGAINST THE LAW. Why would anybody believe that the LAWS do not apply at Comicon? This petition seems like a pointless waste of time.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

There are also people at cons that clearly expect that and dress sexually in order to draw attention to themselves. I was at this years and last years SDCC and there are a fair number of barely clothed cosplayers out here (mostly female but a decent number of males too), especially once you get outside of the convention center and start dealing with the people being paid to sell you something or get you to go somewhere.

The line is drawn at consent. If someone wants you to take their picture and is posing, snap away. If someone refuses to let you photograph every inch of exposed skin, you're not allowed to take the pics, end of story. The costume itself does not grant a free ticket to take pictures without asking permission.

 

[friskykillface]

if you're in public you shouldn't complain about your picture being taken.

Touching unwilling people is childish and incredibly rude though.

This, if you dress up/cos play expect to get your pic taken , otherwise don't do it.

The second part should be enforced more seriously

 

[Jado]

Inappropiate touching is not right and should be punished but as for the photography complaints they are saying, I think that's just part of dressing sexually in public.

Nobody should be allowed to touch or harrass you but people come to the con dressed the way they want to to draw attention to themselves. Now I am sure they would rather have people taking pictures of them doing their prepared poses which most do but if your dressed as slave Laya, is it really that surprising that someone might take a picture of you from behind?

I mean creeps exist.

if you're in public you shouldn't complain about your picture being taken.

Touching unwilling people is childish and incredibly rude though.

The sexual harassment stuff should obviously not be tolerated anywhere. But Comic-Con is not "the public" in the way that the sidewalk or the park are brought up as examples of a photographer's right to take photos. People are paying to go to a privately reserved space. If Comic-Con as an organization has rules in place to respect people who don't wish to have their photos taken at random (and it probably should if it doesn't), then a person should not expect to have their photo taken behind their backs or when permission is denied. "Creeps gonna be creeps" should not be an excuse.

The line is drawn at consent. If someone wants you to take their picture and is posing, snap away. If someone refuses to let you photograph every inch of exposed skin, you're not allowed to take the pics, end of story. The costume itself does not grant a free ticket to take pictures without asking permission.

This. I guess people think it's cool to be rude assholes to non-consenting adults or disgusting creeps to people with their backs turned.

 

[Mesoian]

Not to mention AGAINST THE LAW. Why would anybody believe that the LAWS do not apply at Comicon? This petition seems like a pointless waste of time.

It's because Comic-con is a private event with it's own line of security whom has a limited policy of how to handle actual harassment. They want Comic-con to do more against harassment, but that's a very difficult thing for a security team created through a combination of volunteers and convention center security to do. We're not talking about police here.

 

[Goliath]

The idea is that Comic Con isn't a "public" place once people are inside the hall. The organizers absolutely have the power to make rules about this stuff and kick people out if they don't abide by it. It doesn't help if you are walking down the street to get to the convention, but it is still something they should have on record in a more noticeable fashion than a general "no harassment" line.

So what is it. Do people want a more concrete wording for harassment on the SDCC rules? I mean isn't the real problem enforcement which I am sure most of the security is busy with the celebrities and not really paying attention to how Ivy from Soul Calibur is doing.

 

[Walshicus]

It does not. The way you are describing this, a woman shouldn't be allowed to wear a sundress because she is sexualizing herself. Don't go down that road.

I don't know, there's a huge difference between regular clothing and cosplay clothing. Especially since cosplay clothing's source material is frequently *intended* to be hyper-sexualised. Ivy's costume was *made* to highlight her breasts and arse; so if you're dressing up as her then surely you're okay with that?

I mean I don't really care either way - I think all cosplay is ridiculous nonsense.

 

[clem84]

Amid the costumes and fantasy of this weekend's Comic-Con convention, a group of young women drew widespread attention to a very real issue -- allegations of sexual harassment at the annual pop-culture festival.

Geeks for CONsent, founded by three women from Philadelphia, gathered nearly 2,600 signatures on an online petition supporting a formal anti-harassment policy at Comic-Con.

Conventioneers told Geeks for CONsent they had been groped, followed and unwillingly photographed during the four-day confab.

When I take pictures of cosplayers at my local ComicCon, I always ask for permission. It's just rude not to do so and really, it's common sense. That being said, if someone just happens to take a picture of you without asking first, it's not the end of the world and really, isn't that the point of cosplaying? To show off your costume? That's how I see it. When people cosplay, they want attention, they want to show off what they made. It's a little silly to complain about people taking pictures afterwards.

 

[Starviper]

Okay the reality of the situation is that people are fucking creeps and they're going to take your picture if you're in cosplay without your consent. But that doesn't make it a non-issue. In fact, I think that's exactly why this conversation should be happening. It's rude at best and harassment at worst. Walk up to someone and ask them if you can take their picture.

The answer isn't telling women they shouldn't dress in revealing clothing or saying that they shouldn't be a part of Comic Con. People should understand that cosplay is not consent and not be pieces of shit.

True that. I always ask people if I can take a photo if they're gonna be the main subject, it's just rude not to. Besides, they will usually do a cool pose or something too.

 

[Haloid1177]

The sexual harassment stuff should obviously not be tolerated anywhere. But Comic-Con is not "the public" in the way that the sidewalk or the park are brought up as examples of a photographer's right to take photos. People are paying to go to a privately reserved space. If Comic-Con as an organization has rules in place to respect people who don't wish to have their photos taken at random (and it probably should if it doesn't), then a person should not expect to have their photo taken behind their backs or when permission is denied. "Creeps gonna be creeps" should not be an excuse.

It shouldn't be, but it is. It's gonna be next to impossible to enforce, and in some ways the cosplayers have to know that more than likely pictures will get taken that they weren't prepared for.

It sucks, but this is one of those things where technology makes it practically impossible to do anything about.

 

[Mesoian]

I don't know, there's a huge difference between regular clothing and cosplay clothing. Especially since cosplay clothing's source material is frequently *intended* to be hyper-sexualised. Ivy's costume was *made* to highlight her breasts and arse; so if you're dressing up as her then surely you're okay with that?

I mean I don't really care either way - I think all cosplay is ridiculous nonsense.

Most female evening wear is made to highlight the curves of a woman. Should they not be allowed to wear those as well?

When I take pictures of cosplayers at my local ComicCon, I always ask for permission. It's just rude not to do so and really, it's common sense. That being said, if someone just happens to take a picture of you without asking first, it's not the end of the world and really, isn't that the point of cosplaying? To show off your costume? That's how I see it. When people cosplay, they want attention, they want to show off what they made. It's a little silly to complain about people taking pictures afterwards.

This is what you're supposed to do. Even if it's something as simple as moving up to a crowd and pointing to gesture "1 more", you ask. You don't be a creep, you ask. You'll get better pictures if you ask, you'll have their consent if you ask, and you won't be in anyone else's way if you ask.

There is literally no reason not to ask.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It's gross how these conversations get to be about "what's going to happen to you if you dress this way" or "well, it's not illegal, so deal with it."

We're all human beings, and hopefully mature adults with respect for ourselves and others. Let's act like it.

 

[Sanjuro]

There should be a dress code if this is an actual problem.

Button up shirt, tie, coat. Do it!

 

[Kinyou]

The cosplayers in the article picture also don't seem to be really aware of the photographer. Sometimes you just want take a picture of a moment, and not just of someone posing. Though I can understand that it can be perceived as rude, especially when it's a more private moment.

 

[ultron87]

So what is it. Do people want a more concrete wording for harassment on the SDCC rules? I mean isn't the real problem enforcement which I am sure most of the security is busy with the celebrities and not really paying attention to how Ivy from Soul Calibur is doing.

They want both.

In addition to the existing Comic-Con's Code of Conduct, Geeks for CONsent wants the 45-year-old convention to adopt a clearly stated policy and says staff members should to be trained to handle sexual harassment complaints.

 

[Mesoian]

There should be a dress code if this is an actual problem.

Button up shirt, tie, coat. Do it!

Guess we should apply that to society then...

 

[Sanjuro]

Guess we should apply that to society then...

Let's not get off track here. We are talking about Comic-Con.

 

[Lambtron]

It's gross how these conversations get to be about "what's going to happen to you if you dress this way" or "well, it's not illegal, so deal with it."

We're all human beings, and hopefully mature adults with respect for ourselves and others. Let's act like it.

Yeeeeep. We went to a smaller, local con two weeks ago. There was some banquet dinner for some bank or something upstairs. We were walking by and some drunk asshole starting taking pictures of my wife without asking. And then had the audacity to ask her why she didn't smile.

My wife's costume covered her from her neck to her knees.
The person taking the picture was a woman.

It's never fucking acceptable.

 

[wwm0nkey]

There should be a dress code if this is an actual problem.

Button up shirt, tie, coat. Do it!

I was cosplaying as Roxas when I was younger and had a few girls dressed as Axel keep touching me in pretty uncomfortable places because of their yaoi fantasy crap. I was still in middle school too. This shit is not limited to the amount of clothes are on or off.

 

[Pau]

There should be a dress code if this is an actual problem.

Button up shirt, tie, coat. Do it!

I actually did this for a cosplay (The Question) and still got harassed.

 

[MikeDown]

idk, seems like that if you go out into public, (non-creepy) photography should be one of the things you expect. That said it never hurts to go up and converse and ask if you can take a picture.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

When people cosplay, they want attention, they want to show off what they made. It's a little silly to complain about people taking pictures afterwards.

We're talking about creepshots, not 'taking pictures.'

This thread is beginning to echo gaf's earlier adventure in creepshots.

 

[Mononoke]

No one deserves to be harassed or touched without permission regardless of gender. And just because someone is dressed in something sexy or almost nude doesn't give you the right to touch or harass.

As a side note, I wonder why females who feel comics and games objectify women , then will come out and dress in costumes that they find objectifying. This doesn't mean people have the right to harass them. I'm just bringing it up as a side thing. I just find female representation in these kind of things weird. Like how often they fall into the role of male power fantasy and yet how popular they seem to be with female cosplayers.

If that last part of my post is ignorant, I apologize. It's just something I've always wondered about.

 

[Carcetti]

I was cosplaying as Roxas when I was younger and had a few girls dressed as Axel keep touching me in pretty uncomfortable places because of their yaoi fantasy crap. I was still in middle school too. This shit is not limited to the amount of clothes are on or off.

The idea of a dress code solving sexual harassment problems is just endearingly naive.

 

[Sanjuro]

I was cosplaying as Roxas when I was younger and had a few girls dressed as Axel keep touching me in pretty uncomfortable places because of their yaoi fantasy crap. I was still in middle school too. This shit is not limited to the amount of clothes are on or off.

I actually did this for a cosplay (The Question) and still got harassed.

These are examples of going as a specific character though, not a mandatory convention center restriction for everyone.

 

[KHarvey16]

idk, seems like that if you go out into public, (non-creepy) photography should be one of the things you expect.

What made you think this isn't the case?

 

[Frog-fu]

I have an idea what if we take all the movies, cosplay, videogames, tv shows, books and general fandoms out of this con and make it about comics.

You mean you want to take all the actual fun out of Comic Con?

 

[Mesoian]

Yeeeeep. We went to a smaller, local con two weeks ago. There was some banquet dinner for some bank or something upstairs. We were walking by and some drunk asshole starting taking pictures of my wife without asking. And then had the audacity to ask her why she didn't smile.

My wife's costume covered her from her neck to her knees.
The person taking the picture was a woman.

It's never fucking acceptable.

I've seen it.

One year, Bakertsu Con was sharing hotels with a high school reunion. A gaggle of severly drunk women began pestering my friend who was coming back from a photoshoot for pictures, but she was tired and achy and wanted to get out of her costume. When she refused and kept moving, she was pelted with "Bitch! God what a c***, gets her picture taken all day but won't take one for me? I'm gonna get my fucking picture!" then one of them broke off, ran up behind her and started taking close ups with her phone, then ran away.

Social ineptitude is not a gender issue, anyone can have it. But women get the brunt of it worse.

 

[wwm0nkey]

These are examples of going as a specific character though, not a mandatory convention center restriction for everyone.

Your dress code idea won't work. The restriction should be NO FUCKING TOUCHING!

 

[Sanjuro]

Your dress code idea won't work. The restriction should be NO FUCKING TOUCHING!

That is kind of the point. The dress code addresses maybe one of the half dozen or more problems that arise with this sort of post-commentary.

There is no perfect solution here for anything. That is the unfortunate reality.

 

[Mesoian]

As a side note, I wonder why females who feel comics and games objectify women , then will come out and dress in costumes that they find objectifying. This doesn't mean people have the right to harass them. I'm just bringing it up as a side thing. I just find female representation in these kind of things weird. Like how often they fall into the role of male power fantasy and yet how popular they seem to be with female cosplayers.

If that last part of my post is ignorant, I apologize. It's just something I've always wondered about.

I've found that the people who are the loudest about the over-sexualization of women in mass media aren't the ones who are attending these sorts of shows. Many women don't really have a problem with the sexual nature of a lot of characters and embrace the characters and what they represent rather than lumping it all into a "this is holding us back" mentality.

That being said, you can have it both ways. Let's use the Soul Calibur example since it's been used so much here. It's perfectly fine to feel that Ivy's default outfit is way too much, but still like and want to cosplay as her secondary or hidden outfits, which cover her head to toe. It's alright to like a piece of art, but still find fault in it.

 

[DSKMan]

Not to mention AGAINST THE LAW. Why would anybody believe that the LAWS do not apply at Comicon? This petition seems like a pointless waste of time.

The laws are being ignored and the con organizers are not doing a thing about women who are being molested at the con.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Creeps exist is a pretty bad reason to let this continue.

Edit:

Quite a few posts in here are coming off pretty bad. People seem to think it's the women's responsibility to dress a certain way and not for the creeps to stop acting the way they do.

How would you enforce the rules though
There is always like 20+ Slave Leia's at SDCC, some really are true cosplayers and really do work on their costume, but some of the participants are just their to latch on to the sexiness part of said costume and use it to their advantage hoping for a big break....

The harassment/groping/touching/feeling up is a HUGE NO NO and should be swiftly reported and taken care of
The creep shots on the other are really hard to distinguish, you can't really just look at the photographer and get those "creepy" vibes, it has to be something that make the women feel uncomfortable with maybe the way the guy is asking for pose or stuff like that

Also SDCC has become too popular and the way to get noticed is by using the old trademark of "Sex Sells"

 

[DrGonzo615]

It's because Comic-con is a private event with it's own line of security whom has a limited policy of how to handle actual harassment. They want Comic-con to do more against harassment, but that's a very difficult thing for a security team created through a combination of volunteers and convention center security to do. We're not talking about police here.

Ok so, if a woman is groped, harassed or any other BS and security does nothing about it then they need to call the police.

I just find it extremely depressing that you would actually need to put it in writing that you cant just grope cosplayers. Are people really that fuckin stupid?

Ladies attending Comicon should just carry mace or a stun gun then and just zap those nerds.

 

[Xilium]

The line is drawn at consent. If someone wants you to take their picture and is posing, snap away. If someone refuses to let you photograph every inch of exposed skin, you're not allowed to take the pics, end of story. The costume itself does not grant a free ticket to take pictures without asking permission.

While that could possibly be made a rule within the convention hall (though enforcement would be an issue), unless I'm mistaken, when you're in public (outside of the convention center in this case) photography is a form of free speech and can't be regulated.

From what I've seen, most of the people within the convention center do ask for permission before taking a photo (or joining in if they're already posing). This seems like an issue that would mostly pertain to being outside.

I also think that "creepshots" would have to be something that is clearly defined. Upskirt shots I can understand but unless the photo literally only has the person breast or butt in the shot, how would you then define what a "creepshot" is?

 

[wwm0nkey]

That is kind of the point. The dress code addresses maybe one of the half dozen or more problems that arise with this sort of post-commentary.

There is no perfect solution here for anything. That is the unfortunate reality.

How about if you touch you get banned from the con and other cons could work together to put banns on sales of badges to said people? Put a consequence to sexual harassment at cons and don't punish people for wanting to cosplay.

 

[rrc1594]

Why are people so creepy?

 

[StoOgE]

So I should be able to go to a water park and take tons of photos of ladies without asking because they are in public and clearly want sexualized attention?

 

[Haloid1177]

How about if you touch you get banned from the con and other cons could work together to put banns on sales of badges to said people? Put a consequence to sexual harassment at cons and don't punish people for wanting to cosplay.

I think catching the people in the complaints is gonna be a tad harder than people are taking into account. SDCC is huge.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

How about Comic-Con just instills a "don't be an asshole" policy? If you do something that security deems assholish, you're out the door, no matter what legal hurdles you try to make everyone jump through. Works pretty well at bars. If you grab some girl's ass and she complains to the nearest guard, you get strong-armed out the door, see you tomorrow.

Should stop a lot of the creeper "bu bu bu she was asking for it, she was dressed as Tomb Raider" talk.

So I should be able to go to a water park and take tons of photos of ladies without asking because they are in public and clearly want sexualized attention?

You see, most of those swimsuits were designed by men for sexual gratification. If women don't want creep shots at water parks, a loose-fitting asexual waterproof onesie is the way to go.

 

[GraveRobberX]

How about it you touch you get banned from the con and other cons could work together to put banns on sales of badges to said people? Put a consequence to sexual harassment at cons and don't punish people for wanting to cosplay.

OK that's a great idea

Now how about outside the Con, where they will have no jurisdiction to enforce said bans

 

[Mononoke]

I've found that the people who are the loudest about the over-sexualization of women in mass media aren't the ones who are attending these sorts of shows. Many women don't really have a problem with the sexual nature of a lot of characters and embrace the characters and what they represent rather than lumping it all into a "this is holding us back" mentality.

That being said, you can have it both ways. Let's use the Soul Calibur example since it's been used so much here. It's perfectly fine to feel that Ivy's default outfit is way too much, but still like and want to cosplay as her secondary or hidden outfits, which cover her head to toe. It's alright to like a piece of art, but still find fault in it.

Thanks for the reply. I also think, that regardless of how females are dressed in these mediums, some of them are really cool characters. So it's not surprising that people like them beyond their design.

I guess I shouldn't generalize either. I mean individually regardless of gender, ones views on sex appeal is going to be different. I guess I just personally feel that the majority of representation of females in comics and games tend to be pretty poor and usually are for sexual purposes. So I always find it strange to see so many women cosplaying in outfits that were clearly designed in mind for the male audience.

All this said, I still think regardless of how someone is dressed, you dont have the right to touch them or harass them. Being dressed in a sexy way doesn't give you a free pass to touch them. I really don't understand how hard of a concept it is for people to not touch if they aren't given consent. As if someone dressed a certain way suddenly gives you the okay to do so.

 

[Mumei]

I would strongly suggest that everyone read the OP carefully, and not start complaining about things that are not in the OP. For instance, I would point out that the OP does not mention any sort of quixotic general ban on photography, but specific kinds of photography that they find harassing. There's no point in arguing about policies that aren't being suggested, so let's please avoid it.

 

[MikeDown]

What made you think this isn't the case?

eh my general experience with people when i first started taking pictures

 

[TriniTrin]

So I should be able to go to a water park and take tons of photos of ladies without asking because they are in public and clearly want sexualized attention?

A water park with swim gear is totally the same situation. It's not like swim suits are functional clothing right? Costumes are totally required at a con!

 

[Moral Panic]

So I should be able to go to a water park and take tons of photos of ladies without asking because they are in public and clearly want sexualized attention?

Yes. Unless the water park expressly forbids it.

 

[Mesoian]

Ok so, if a woman is groped, harassed or any other BS and security does nothing about it then they need to call the police.

On an individual case? Absolutely.

So now imagine you're getting dozens of cases every day. From a purely logistical standpoint, it is incredibly unreasonable for a police contingent to be placed within comic-con security to solely handle harassment cases. The call is for con security to be trained to handle these harassment cases better so that someone watching the door would know how to handle a woman being harassed, physically or otherwise, and be able to appropriate the proper punishment without any sort of meaningful evidence. I can tell you right now, this is EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, and I'm not saying it's wrong to want that, but actually making it happen is one of those things that I've never seen a convention be able to cover well, forget efficiently.

I just find it extremely depressing that you would actually need to put it in writing that you cant just grope cosplayers. Are people really that fuckin stupid?

Yes. Yes they are. And that's never going to change.

Ladies attending Comicon should just carry mace or a stun gun then and just zap those nerds.

That's assault, but I'm with you. I can't count on fingers and toes how many times I've had to stop myself from smashing some punk's face in after they yelled some lewd comment at them from across the street.

 

[andymcc]

Sexual harassment is bad and happens in a lot of places, but I disagree with that lady at the end of the bit.

Revealing Cosplay just adds to the fuel. I've seen some cosplay that are asking for sexual attention, sometimes even modelling just for it.
Of course, not all woman share the same sentiment as that lady, they'll cosplay what they want, but if they have problem with oversexualized female characters, they shouldn't cosplay those specific characters.

here we go

I would strongly suggest that everyone read the OP carefully, and not start complaining about things that are not in the OP. For instance, I would point out that the OP does not mention any sort of quixotic general ban on photography, but specific kinds of photography that they find harassing. There's no point in arguing about policies that aren't being suggested, so let's please avoid it.

i don't want to see this thread get out of hand and get you angry, but i do want to see how you will convey your anger with further johann liebert gifs.