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[SPDIF]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there more to graphics than resolution? Shaders, lighting, and different setting apply to graphics. PES has way more things going on than FIFA. Look at the picture posted above, PES has higher quality models than FIFA.

2) It doesn't work that way. Your thinking is flawed.

3) Like I said, more to graphics than just resolution. X1 most likely has better Shaders and aliasing.

4) Do you see Ground Zeros? 1080p 60fps on PS4 vs 720p 60fps on X1. And the PS4 version has a dynamic cloud system versus the static clouds in all other versions. FOX engine also ran great on the X1 as well.

I think people have been getting used to the parity seen in the last couple of games and forgot about the difference between the PS4 and X1.

Edit: Good job Chobel

I may be off the mark, but based on this I have to imagine that you haven't spent any serious amount of time with PES or FIFA.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

This is a big day for a lot of Sony fans.

It's huge. Life altering huge. But facts are facts.

 

[mrb1972]

Obviously Gaf has members who are knowledgeable about these things. Penello was on Gaf swearing they would not give up more than a 30% difference to the PS4. Guess what? There were those who know about hardware and explained that we would see differences between the two.

True, but there are also devs that say the difference is small. So who would you believe? A random fanboy poster or a dev working on both consoles?

 

[Maintenance]

Not brilliance just common sense, they like most of us have no idea the exact hardware in the XB1 or PS4 - yet because they read one has more ROPS or whatever in the media they think they know everything.

The only unknown console parts were inside the Wii U, since Nintendo didn't disclose what they were, the other two were already dissected and analyzed.

 

[THRILLH0]

http://www.gengame.net/2013/05/xbox...t-end-graphics-to-target-broad-entertainment/

We purposefully did not target the highest end graphics. We targeted it more as a broad entertainment play,” said Greg Williams, one of the engineers who worked on Microsoft’s latest hardware box.

Around 5:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nhiQ7Ua_tzA#t=338

Haha I love that you had that shit bookmarked.

 

[Sami+]

Is it really that surprising that a Japanese developer isn't putting extra effort into XB1 optimization

 

[Dragon]

This is a big day for a lot of Sony fans.

No it's just a shitty day for people who care about IQ on Xbox. 1080p/60 should be the standard for sports games this gen.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

They wanted 8 GB RAM no matter what from the beginning. At that time that meant having DDR3. As a result, they needed eSRAM to offset the low bandwidth, and that crippled the GPU. At the same time, Sony went for GDDR5. At first, this meant only 2 GB of RAM. Then GDDR5 prices fell and Sony was able to double that to 4 GB of RAM. Then prices lowered even further and Sony surprised everybody by revealing that they were going to have 8 GB of RAM (they had told devs that it ould be 4 GB and even the leaked specs said 4 GB).

MS's issues stem from betting on the wrong horse, really. DDR3 ended up going up in price because a factory fire crippled world production of it. So they couldn't increase the amount of DDR3 they had to obfuscate the fact that their GPU was weaker.

Please tell me you're not talking about the 2013 fire...in September, two months from the launch of these machines.

 

[Ishida]

They wanted 8 GB RAM no matter what from the beginning. At that time that meant having DDR3. As a result, they needed eSRAM to offset the low bandwidth, and that crippled the GPU. At the same time, Sony went for GDDR5. At first, this meant only 2 GB of RAM. Then GDDR5 prices fell and Sony was able to double that to 4 GB of RAM. Then prices lowered even further and Sony surprised everybody by revealing that they were going to have 8 GB of RAM (they had told devs that it ould be 4 GB and even the leaked specs said 4 GB).

MS's issues stem from betting on the wrong horse, really. DDR3 ended up going up in price because a factory fire crippled world production of it. So they couldn't increase the amount of DDR3 they had to obfuscate the fact that their GPU was weaker.

So pretty much Sony were some incredibly lucky bastards.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Just like the posts saying the gap is closing right?

Otherwise, I could care less about what your barometer of a grown man is.

Those posts don't take pleasure in others experiences being lesser. That is damage control those sort of posts.

"Return of the King"

I've seen your posts on here many times, there is a group of you who do this sort of crap constantly and nothing is done about it. All the crying in the DriveClub threads about passive trolling and you lot are no better at all.

If you don't care then don't reply, ignore what I have to say, simple as that.

 

[Bgamer90]

No it's just a shitty day for people who care about IQ on Xbox. 1080p/60 should be the standard for sports games this gen.

UFC already broke that (on both consoles).

 

[Daviii]

Please guys. The console was obviously designed for 1080p.

What it wasn't designed for is to face PS4. Sony caught MS off-guard. Now devs need to lower the resolution if they want to go multiplat without spending tons of money into optimisations.

 

[mrb1972]

http://i.imgur.com/LRDjw4E.gif

I'm pretty sure everyone but you and MisterX knows what's in these boxes by now.

Who is misterx?

Ok great can you post me a link to the full official specs of the Xb1 and PS4 so I can take a look, thanks

 

[Biker19]

They wanted 8 GB RAM no matter what from the beginning. At that time that meant having DDR3. As a result, they needed eSRAM to offset the low bandwidth, and that crippled the GPU. At the same time, Sony went for GDDR5. At first, this meant only 2 GB of RAM. Then GDDR5 prices fell and Sony was able to double that to 4 GB of RAM. Then prices lowered even further and Sony surprised everybody by revealing that they were going to have 8 GB of RAM (they had told devs that it ould be 4 GB and even the leaked specs said 4 GB).

MS's issues stem from betting on the wrong horse, really. DDR3 ended up going up in price because a factory fire crippled world production of it. So they couldn't increase the amount of DDR3 they had to obfuscate the fact that their GPU was weaker.

What's more, they had to automatically include Kinect 2.0 being built with Xbox One, & that in turn, made the console more expensive & putting better specs on the backburner.

If anyone should be to blame as to why 3rd party multiplats aren't being up to snuff, it's Microsoft, not 3rd party developers. Just like Sony should be blamed for the way that they designed the PS3 last gen & had mostly worse looking &/or performing multiplat games as a result.

 

[nampad]

Wow... I can't believe Microsoft actually made so many mistakes while designing this console. One would think that they would learn a valuable lesson from last gen's Sony's mistakes, and that they would try to create the most powerful console in this new generation, at all costs.

Did Sony really catch them off guard this much?

Looking back, nearly nobody expected Sony to go with 8GB of GDDR5. They got lucky with the availability of the higher density chips if I remember correctly and the decision for 8GB came in pretty late.

Microsoft's "TV TV TV" vision pretty much required 8GB of RAM and the only safe bet was DDR3. The ESRAM is there to fix the bandwidth deficit but they didn't build in enough to keep the costs low.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Please guys. The console was obviously designed for 1080p.

What it wasn't designed for is to face PS4. Sony caught MS off-guard. Now devs need to lower the resolution if they want to go multiplat without spending tons of money into optimisations.

Didn't Konami say PES was 1080p 60fps a while ago on PS4 but didn't menyion the Xbox One version ? When that happens people should know what to expect.

 

[Purest 78]

I've played both fifa and Pes, fifa simply doesn't come close If I actually knew how to post pics to gaf I would.

 

[Chobel]

Please guys. The console was obviously designed for 1080p.

What it wasn't designed for is to face PS4. Sony caught MS off-guard. Now devs need to lower the resolution if they want to go multiplat without spending tons of money into optimisations.

Lazy and cheap devs?

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

I may be off the mark, but based on this I have to imagine that you haven't spent any serious amount of time with PES or FIFA.

I meant technically. I haven't played PES yet, I just seen some gameplay on Youtube.

True, but there are also devs that say the difference is small. So who would you believe? A random fanboy poster or a dev working on both consoles?

These developers are those who also need to sell their games on both platforms. So are you calling those the people who proved Penello wrong "random fanboy posters"?

John Carmack is one developer who talked about the differences being small but he works with PC that have larger differences than consoles.

 

[Duxxy3]

I've played both fifa and Pes, fifa simply doesn't come close If I actually knew how to post pics to gaf I would.

Maybe that's the case on PS4.

On the XB1, it's PES that's not even close.

 

[boredandlazy]

For better or worse(mostly worse), this threads makes me feel like I've jumped back in time 6 months.

 

[SeanTSC]

Definitely could have bumped it up. Developers probably just aren't comfortable with the hardware.

When more demanding games are coming out at higher resolutions on xb1. And the gap now seems to have comfortably settled at 900p vs 1080p.

And this "games are going to get more demanding, harder to keep 900/1080p" arguments are stupid. Last gen games consistenly got better looking and the resolutions never dropped. Halo 4 was the best looking 360 game and ran at native 720p. Gta 4 ran lower than 720p on the ps3. Yet gta5 not only look significantly better, it ran at a higher resolution.

Unless developers stick to renderers with a lot of pre-baked lighting and what not, then framebuffers are going to get more demanding and it will be harder to keep 900/1080p. That's undeniable. The framebuffer is a huge bottleneck for anyone wanting to do dynamic lightning. It's a limitation of the system and I would prefer developers make better and better engines and not hamstring themselves with the XB1's poor architectural decisions to reach resolution parity.

A raise of hands - who wants to use pre-baked lighting forever? No one? Thought so.

I'd prefer developers push things forward and not be stuck in the past being forced to adhere to one system's max of a 32mb framebuffer just to hit 1080p on it.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Lazy and cheap devs?

Not this again

 

[Patroclos]

Is it really that surprising that a Japanese developer isn't putting extra effort into XB1 optimization

Sort of. Considering they had Kojima & Co. and tPP on their keynote stage at E3 and they developed the FOX engine. It will be one HELL of a surprise for a lot of people assuming the gap has closed when tPP comes out.

 

[Purest 78]

Maybe that's the case on PS4.

On the XB1, it's PES that's not even close.

Yes I've played them on ps4.

 

[StuBurns]

Maybe that's the case on PS4.

On the XB1, it's PES that's not even close.

Don't you see the irony there?

It's not optimised because on XBO FIFA looks far better? By that logic it's FIFA that isn't optimsed for the same reason on PS4.

 

[Shin-Ra]

Maybe you should do research too? Over on the beyond3d site, one of the trials fusion devs on the core gfx engine (lead guy?) talks about how ROPS are only really relevant for older / cross gen engines, and it's bandwidth & compute shaders (or something like that) which are going to be the key thing on new gen engines... I think he said rops retain relevance for a few scenarios but its all about the compute & bw.

I'm not trying to make a more broad point about xbox vs. Ps4 here, just picking up on the specific points about a) rops and b) people who should do more reseach before posting ;-)

This doesn't look very well researched to me.

 

[Conduit]

http://i.imgur.com/LRDjw4E.gif

I'm pretty sure everyone but you and MisterX knows what's in these boxes by now.

Well, i laughed hard on this :

 

[mrb1972]

I meant technically. I haven't played PES yet, I just seen some gameplay on Youtube.

These developers are those who also need to sell their games on both platforms. So are you calling those the people who proved Penello wrong "random fanboy posters"?

John Carmack is one developer who talked about the differences being small but he works with PC that have larger differences than consoles.

what about the metro dev interview? Explained quite a lot of things

 

[Duxxy3]

Don't you see the irony there?

It's not optimised because on XBO FIFA looks far better? By that logic it's FIFA that isn't optimsed for the same reason on PS4.

The information can be spun to favor anybody.

 

[neogaffer1]

Please tell me you're not talking about the 2013 fire...in September, two months from the launch of these machines.

Well that, and the fact that there were manufacturing cutbacks a year before that causing prices to rise. I bought about 8 GB of RAM three years back for about $40; now the prices are in the $80's. While the fire was a bit late it did happen around the time manufacturing the of consoles started to ramp up. DDR3 prices have been going up for a good while, even before the consoles were announced. The fire was just the first thing in mind that I thought about to demonstrate the rise in prices.

 

[Kiant]

This is a big day for a lot of Sony fans.

So huge I might leave my wife...

Spoiler

I don't have a wife.

But OT maybe a lack of resources led to one platform getting the shaft, since it is cross-gen and I bet the PES team isn't as large as Fifa's.

 

[Patroclos]

Who is misterx?

Ok great can you post me a link to the full official specs of the Xb1 and PS4 so I can take a look, thanks

Meet MisterX

Spoiler

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com

. You will find many varied arguments from this wonderful resource to back up your future points. MisterX will tell you EXACTLY what is in the box. Warning, you must have advanced knowledge of computer stuffs as this is not workingman's info.

 

[mrb1972]

Unless developers stick to renderers with a lot of pre-baked lighting and what not, then framebuffers are going to get more demanding and it will be harder to keep 900/1080p. That's undeniable. The framebuffer is a huge bottleneck for anyone wanting to do dynamic lightning. It's a limitation of the system and I would prefer developers make better and better engines and not hamstring themselves with the XB1's poor architectural decisions to reach resolution parity.

A raise of hands - who wants to use pre-baked lighting forever? No one? Thought so.

I'd prefer developers push things forward and not be stuck in the past being forced to adhere to one system's max of a 32mb framebuffer just to hit 1080p on it.

Doesn't FH2 use dynamic lighting, weather system etc at 1080p , 30fps?

 

[BruiserBear]

Sure, maybe you can't say that "It wasn't designed for 1080p" and doing so is a little silly, but you can say that it was clearly not designed for games and engines with a large framebuffer and in hindsight that's incredibly unfortunate.

Agreed.

You can't really fault a developer for not gimping their engine down to make sure it the XB1 can handle it at 1080p and anyone calling Konami lazy because they won't compromise their engine to make it work with those hardware limitations is even more silly. People are just going to have to deal with the fact that the XB1 has to take a resolution hit on any game that won't hold its framebuffer back just for it.

Nowhere in this thread have I suggested this game should be 1080p on XB1. It's 720p that I find questionable. We haven't seen a game with a real budget at that resolution since Ground Zeroes. I suspect it's gonna be a while before we see it again. I doubt they did everything they could to hit a higher resolution.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

It should be pretty clear by now that the XBOne was designed to make great looking next generation games at 720p.

Most games are hitting at least 900p, so I'll just ignore this poor observation.

MS expected Kinect to win hearts and minds like the Wii did before it and bet on black crush (boosted contrast) + sharpening to make the difference from 1080p negligible to the average person who sits much too far away from their TV than they should. They also trusted that their obfuscation and rhetoric would influence a rather clueless media industry.

One thing that's nice about gaf is that so many of the members know exactly what MS is thinking. I wish I had those powers, too.

They did not bet on savvy forum posters pointing out the machine's obvious GPU deficit in terms of ROPs, sharers and memory bandwidth and really taking the lead on educating the media and the masses.

Oh this is good. Apparently, MS is completely ignorant to the fact that a large chunk of the world is made up of developers, programmers, and software engineers. It's a good thing Neogaf set the records straight lol.

Spoiler

statements like these are all kinds of ignorance and arrogance all wrapped up into a ball of forum stupidity

Now that they're in a technological panic mode, they're scrambling engineers out to squeeze every last drop out of the machine, attempting to achieve parity wins on high profile cross gen games or non demanding titles with the likes of their mates at EA and continuing to obfuscate with DX12 - a low level API which will greatly enhance PC titles but that the One effectively had from the start.

Konami and their internally developed engine is not yet on Microsoft's radar.

I didn't know MS was in panic mode. If helping devs with the xbox one's architecture is panic mode, then I'm all for it.

This is one of the best summation posts I have seen regarding the MS debacle. You should be a member. The only thing I don't agree with 100% is the bolded part and the only reason I don't agree is because I have to think about it a bit more because it had not occurred to me yet.

As far as that last bolded statement goes I have a sneaking suspicion that SoM was not on their radar either as I tried to explain previously. Nice Post.

You've shown your true colors and what you apparently think neogaf is all about, but not everyone on gaf is interested in whacking off to every short coming of the xbox one.

Not even a good one-liner to go with your drive by? Would you care to elaborate and tear him apart point by point? We'll be waiting for more nuggets of your brilliance.

I think I've come to understand your position quite well: you hate microsoft and the xbox one. If you feel you have anything new to discuss on the matter please feel free to share.

 

[benny_a]

Doesn't FH2 use dynamic lighting, weather system etc at 1080p , 30fps?

Forza Horizon 2 is using Forward+ rendering. (It's also 30 fps vs. this game at 60 fps which changes things.)

Simplified: It does a lot of thing deferred rendering engines do, but at way less memory resources for the frame buffers.

It's great and you can think of it as an evolution. It's bleeding edge in the console world right now.

(Edit: Bleeding edge might be overstating it a little bit. The Tomorrow Children is bleeding edge. But Forza Horizon 2 should be what we should expect from AAA console games going forward.)

 

[SeanTSC]

Agreed.



Nowhere in this thread have I suggested this game should be 1080p on XB1. It's 720p that I find questionable. We haven't a game with a real budget at that resolution since Ground Zeroes. I suspect it's gonna be a while before we see it again. I doubt they did everything they could to hit a higher resolution.

Sorry, that wasn't intended to be directed at you - more of a general statement about some comments that have been. And you're right, they probably didn't do *everything* they could have done, but I'd hazard a guess that it would have involved paring the renderer back specifically on the XB1 version to hit a higher resolution. It's more likely that they just dialed the resolution back to work with the size of it and called it a day. I don't think that's lazy though.

 

[TomShoe]

Misterxmedia may be hilariously wrong, but I have to do give him some respect to his PES blog post. It looks like he put work into it.

 

[Duxxy3]

Forza Horizon 2 is using Forward+ rendering.

Simplified: It does a lot of thing deferred rendering engines do, but at way less memory resources for the frame buffers.

It's great and you can think of it as an evolution. It's bleeding edge in the console world right now.

So if this is the case - why doesn't the fox engine use it?

Is there an advantage to deferred rendering? Is forward+ simply not in the fox engine?

 

[benny_a]

So if this is the case - why doesn't the fox engine use it?

I guess the engineers got the instruction from the people that pay them that their new engine also needs to be able to target last-gen consoles. (AFAIK Forward plus is 2012+ tech, probably too intensive to backport.)

Is there an advantage to deferred rendering? Is forward+ simply not in the fox engine?

I don't actually know. As I said, this is very new for commercial games.

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

Misterxmedia may be hilariously wrong, but I have to do give him some respect to his PES blog post. It looks like he put work into it.

Indeed I love the comparison shots, "look at the 4x zoomed grass in a shitty artifact infested YouTube video!!"

 

[SerTapTap]

So pretty much Sony were some incredibly lucky bastards.

GDDR5 is far from the ONLY advantage in Sony's hardware, almost every part of the GPU is superior (though generally not to the extent that GDDR5 eats DDR3's lunch bandwidthwise)

 

[mrb1972]

Forza Horizon 2 is using Forward+ rendering. (It's also 30 fps vs. this game at 60 fps which changes things.)

Simplified: It does a lot of thing deferred rendering engines do, but at way less memory resources for the frame buffers.

It's great and you can think of it as an evolution. It's bleeding edge in the console world right now.

(Edit: Bleeding edge might be overstating it a little bit. The Tomorrow Children is bleeding edge. But Forza Horizon 2 should be what we should expect from AAA console games going forward.)

Interesting, maybe this was the kind of thing the X1 was designed for, new tech and more efficient game engines? Just Speculation of course

 

[Patroclos]

Most games are hitting at least 900p, so I'll just ignore this poor observation.


One thing that's nice about gaf is that so many of the members know exactly what MS is thinking. I wish I had those powers, too.


Oh this is good. Apparently, MS is completely ignorant to the fact that a large chunk of the world is made up of developers, programmers, and software engineers. It's a good thing Neogaf set the records straight lol.

Spoiler

statements like these are all kinds of ignorance and arrogance all wrapped up into a ball of forum stupidity

I didn't know MS was in panic mode. If helping devs with the xbox one's architecture is panic mode, then I'm all for it.


You've shown your true colors and what you apparently think neogaf is all about, but not everyone on gaf is interested in whacking off to every short coming of the xbox one.


I think I've come to understand your position quite well: you hate microsoft and the xbox one. If you feel you have anything new to discuss on the matter please feel free to share.

If you read this thread you would have found a simple summation of my Xbox feelings. here it is from earlier in this very thread; "It's a tough place to be in for MS, but one of their own devising. I have come to terms with the fact that my XB1 is a Halo/exclusives machine this gen. My hope is that it will generate some good exclusive content when MS is forced to look for inspiration internally, which they seem to be starting."

I don't "hate" companies and if I did I certainly would not buy their products. your saltiness is palpable. Nice Master Chief avatar by the way. And that bolded comment! What?! You could have at least given that zinger to liquidmetal14 instead of me!

 

[DirgeExtinction]

Meet MisterX

Spoiler

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com

. You will find many varied arguments from this wonderful resource to back up your future points. MisterX will tell you EXACTLY what is in the box. Warning, you must have advanced knowledge of computer stuffs as this is not workingman's info.

That site made my head hurt.

 

[mrb1972]

Misterxmedia may be hilariously wrong, but I have to do give him some respect to his PES blog post. It looks like he put work into it.

Just had a quick look too, seems a lot of effort for a site with no ads, he obviously makes no money from click bait, wonder why he bothers

 

[benny_a]

Interesting, maybe this was the kind of thing the X1 was designed for, new tech and more efficient game engines? Just Speculation of course

I can only speculate myself what it was designed for, but if the limited eSRAM in the Xbone accelerates the adoption of Forward+ that is only going to beneficial.
(Again: All very simplified and there will be games where deferred probably continues to be the right choice based on what they want to achieve.)

Maybe FOX gets Forward+ support later in its life. What is important for that decision I think is the adoption rate of overall new generation consoles.

 

[SeanTSC]

So if this is the case - why doesn't the fox engine use it?

Is there an advantage to deferred rendering? Is forward+ simply not in the fox engine?

I'm pretty sure Forza H2 is the very first game to use it. The Fox Engine has been in development for a long time and while I don't know enough about it specifically, I'm pretty sure that you can't just "swap" a completely different renderer into it.

I'm not sure on the cons/pros of Deferred Vs. Forward+. Hopefully someone can elaborate.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

I'm pretty sure Forza H2 is the very first game to use it. The Fox Engine has been in development for a long time and while I don't know enough about it specifically, I'm pretty sure that you can't just "swap" a completely different renderer into it.

I'm not sure on the cons/pros of Deferred Vs. Forward+. Hopefully someone can elaborate.

That would make for a great thread.