Support NeoGAF

[zephervack]

Why would anyone pay for that? And even more so, pay for it and not demand a refund within 24 hours.

I feel like in most "horror" scenarios, people fail to take into account that a successful business requires both someone to offer something for sale, and someone to buy it. People will only buy what they perceive to have sufficient value.

Because of the same reason people buy flashlight/fart noises apps for iOS/Android, people that dont spend tons of time on forums and tech blogs arent informed enough to know they are wasting their money and at the same time enabling shitty products to exist.

 

[Durante]

based on the initial outrage it looks like very little people perceive any monetary value in mods, friend

Sure looks like it if you listen to the screaming and gnashing of teeth. And if that is true, then in the long term nothing will change regarding modding.

And if it's not true, then mods perceived as valuable will have more funding to work with.

So either we have an unchanged status quo or a win. I just don't see the horror scenario.

You clearly have more confidence in the ability of your average Skyrim player to make wise, informed purchasing decisions than I do.

If they are incapable of doing that, that would then appear to be their loss, no?

Because of the same reason people buy flashlight/fart noises apps for iOS/Android, people that dont spend tons of time on forums and tech blogs arent informed enough to know they are wasting their money and at the same time enabling shitty products to exist.

How does shitty products existing hurt you?

 

[Nzyme32]

Really disgusting to read some reactions to this (mainly comments on Steam to mods charging money). So incredibly toxic, shortsighted and entitled.



That on the other hand is way too low. 75% split between Bethesda and Valve? Come on.

This will only make sense with a proper breakdown. They obviously intend to profit from their own property use (bethesda) and services (valve) but on Valve's end there are costs associated with the payments themselves, upkeep and development - but there is no reasoning to it or breakdown to aid understanding. I haven't found where that link is, but I hope it explains it. I thought the 50% going each way was reasonable for Valve's games, but 25% naturally feel like a bit much

 

[Krejlooc]

I think it's funny that all the people I recognize as creators here on gaf are 100% on board for this.

I mean, the only argument I'm seeing against this is from users complaining that they might have to pay for content. Isn't that how it is supposed to work in the first place?

There will always be free mods. This is terrific for those of us who work unpaid for months on labors of love. Suddenly, my work can turn into profit to keep me afloat. Absolutely terrific.

 

[Chezzymann]

This gives those who make mods more incentive to make them. This lets content creators get paid for their work.

This is great for modding.

Its bad for the modding community. Watch it get destoryed because people want mods, not user created DLC.

I agree it's good for large projects that could rival actual expansions though. Just not for anything else like cosmetic stuff, visual upgrades, or gameplay tweaks.

 

[zephervack]

Best possible scenario is that we start seeing mods as complex as some of the mods for simulators like Flight Simulator X, some of the paid mods for it are insane.

 

[Steel]

Eh. Not sure how I feel about this.

 

[Anno]

I'll happily pay for good mods, but I wish a larger cut went to the creator. Still I suppose 25% is better than nothing.

 

[LurkerPrime]

based on the initial outrage it looks like very little people perceive any monetary value in mods, friend

There are definitely mods worth money, but you have to remember that Elder Scrolls modding is so great because of its modular nature, meaning that everyone will have their own collection of mods. Said mods may even be collections of smaller mods, like armor or such. If it's all split ten ways to Sunday and each creator monetises their portion, then the actual cost of playing Skyrim may balloon out of control. And with only a 25% modder cut, the pressure is on higher pricing.

I just can't see this working out. Free vs. paid will be split, which means there has to be a wall between said content, which will further hamstring collaborative modding efforts or balloon the price even more. There will be compatibility issues. There will be issues like, should foundational mods (Skyrim Script Extender) be monetised, and what will happen to mods relying on those foundations?

 

[Durante]

It's funny that I feel like I'm arguing a Laissez-faire position here, when nothing could be further from the truth for my real-life political position.

But I really don't see why people need to be protected from being offered unreasonable digital entertainment options.

 

[Netherscourge]

Lol just read it before commenting. What are you hoping to accomplish here?



Obviously it's 75% split between Valve and Bethesda.

ok, will do.

(Sorry, I have this horrible impulsive nature about me. And too much caffeine.)

I'm just concerned about the free, open-modding stuff to be honest. Everything seems like a threat.

 

[Sinecat]

they can charge more than them if they feel their mod is worth that

25% is standard right now for valve


i mean those people can just go unpaid for their hard work if they want

and remember where we are without a game to mod or a platform to sell it on

25% is abysmally low. Look at the cuts on Android and Apple store. The creator keeps 70%.

And no, those people don't have to go unpaid for their hard work. If people don't support this bullshit, then the cuts might become more favorable to the creators so that Valve can continue to pick up their free money.

 

[_machine]

How does shitty products existing hurt you?

Not only that, but we are also talking about a very, very different audience.

I'm not totally happy about how it's been implemented and I very much prefer the Nexus so the future is a bit uncertain, but on the other hand it's very sad to see that a big response has been akin to "fuck the modders and fuck this industry". It just feels like people have no idea what it's like to create content for games.

Its bad for the modding community. Watch it get destoryed because people want mods, not user created DLC.

I agree it's good for large projects that could rival actual expansions though. Just not for anything else like cosmetic stuff, visual upgrades, or gameplay tweaks.

Looking at some other genres, it's not going to happen. Sim Racing for example has had paid mods for years now and now the variety and quality has been great over there; you extremely well made paid content from professional alongside free content from enthusiasts and the community is thriving. Same thing for some flying simulators. Same thing for some source mods. This isn't an exactly new concept, but it's just making it to the mainstream with an organized structure and content delivery method.

25% is abysmally low. Look at the cuts on Android and Apple store. The creator keeps 70%.

And no, those people don't have to go unpaid for their hard work. If people don't support this bullshit, then the cuts might become more favorable to the creators so that Valve can continue to pick up their free money.

It isn't just Valve, but the original IP holder too. Bethesda has every right to take a cut from money people are earning through using their intellectual property and tools, and Valve from all the logistical side. I'm not sure if 25% is enough, but it's not a totally unreasonable figure either, even if certainly in the lower-end.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

The comments under many of these mods are appalling. If this is the community, I'm not sure having it implode in on itself would be a bad thing.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I really don't like this. Seems to be a way to slowly end modding.

 

[Twentieth]

I think it's funny that all the people I recognize as creators here on gaf are 100% on board for this.

And then tons of people are just yelling nonsense, and not even reading the q&a.

Modders will love this, sure. As a consumer, I don't. It will take some time to get used to it, as I've always loved to test hundreds of mods (and I'm pretty sure that, even with a refund policy, I won't be able to do that without spending a lot of money).

 

[Almighty]

I hate this idea as much as the next person, but some of the gloom and doom talk is making me laugh. I doubt it will kill the modding scene and I doubt it will be the end of free mods. Even with all that said I have a mental roadblock it seems as i just can't wrap my head around paying for a mod even a good one. Though based on this thread it seems there are enough out there who will that it doesn't really matter what my opinion is. Pandora's box has been opened and it is a fallacy to think it will go back to how it was.

Anyway I haven't really used the Steam Workshop for modding Skyrim(mostly use The Nexus), but am i still expected to figure out install order, load order, read every mods read me for compatibilities problems, and all the other stuff that goes with installing a bunch of mods like I usually do? Because yeah the idea of doing all that and paying for it on top of that is a big hurdle for me.

 

[Juniez]

Sure looks like it if you listen to the screaming and gnashing of teeth. And if that is true, then in the long term nothing will change regarding modding.

And if it's not true, then mods perceived as valuable will have more funding to work with.

So either we have an unchanged status quo or a win. I just don't see the horror scenario.

sounds like it's already created a group divide between creators and consumers on what constitutes as paid value which will inevitably affect how people see value in other paid content like indie games when compared to similiar workshop submissions

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

What about quality control and overall mod implementation and integration? If moders are charging money for their product does that mean they have done the necessary quality assurance? I think this is great for people looking to earn money from their hard work, but if you're going to be charging, you have to go an extra step further to insure quality and compatibility.

 

[Alavard]

I don't see how I could ever spend money on a mod without a guarantee that it will remain compatible with the game. Patches break mods all the time. Mod makers abandon mods all the time. I'm simply not going to risk it.

 

[mgs2master2]

So people are basically paying for mods (or dlc) now? Lol okay.

I'm not a Pc gamer in some aspects, but I can see this being abused and negative as well.

 

[Sendou]

25% is abysmally low. Look at the cuts on Android and Apple store. The creator keeps 70%.

They sell mods now on Apple store? Wow mobile game has gone forward a lot quicker than I expected. Seriously though that's the same split as you see elsewhere on Steam store where what being sold is completely new material instead of mods using primarily someone else's assets.

 

[UnluckyKate]

I can see the thousand of russian amateur fake mods, the greenlight and ealry access quality mods, the guy stealing the bigger mods on the Nexus all night to upload them as their own...

Congrats Bethesda, you just killed the PC Modding for Skyrim with your greediness.

 

[aajohnny]

Man people always has to have FREE FREE FREE. Somebody spends 100's if not 1,000's of hours creating something for people to enjoy, they should be able to charge for it... cliche saying but hey you don't want to buy it don't buy it? This is all dictated on the modder... if the modder charges for a shitty mod and nobody buys it... hey lower the price! or make it free! it'll harm the modder if they over-price and nobody buys it.

This is a good thing and will reward those who work hard. I just get annoyed when people always think they have to get something for free.... Fuck the people who work hard and give us more content! fuck em! ... gamers man...

 

[Noray]

25% for the content creator is a slap in the face imo. 50% seems more fair.

 

[MUnited83]

Yea, but could the developer also not allow free mods?

And can the developer demand a portion of the mod sales?

(I haven't read the whole FAQ yet, so I'm sorta of piecemealing this)

(also - not so much the modding JUST in Steam Workshop, but rather the open-modding that isn't directly supported by developers, but isn't actively pursued/shut down due to rights permissions.)

again, read the OP. Of course the game devs will get a cut of the sale. And paid mods is something that only happens of the devs specifically allow it. The "legal issues" do not existe.

 

[Sendou]

I can see the thousand of russian amateur fake mods, the greenlight and ealry access quality mods, the guy stealing the bigger mods on the Nexus all night to upload them as their own...

And won't receive a penny of it while Valve cashes in $5 per account sacrificed? Sounds horrible indeed. I can see this becoming a large trend.

Congrats Bethesda, you just killed the PC Modding for Skyrim with your greediness.

lol

 

[Grover Cleveland]

I see absolutely no problem with this.

If creators put in the time, effort, and resources into making high-quality mods and think they should receive some monetary compensation for it, then Valve/Bethesda should allow them to try.

The market will decide if they are right. The free mods will still always be there.

 

[Durante]

Free vs. paid will be split, which means there has to be a wall between said content, which will further hamstring collaborative modding efforts or balloon the price even more. There will be compatibility issues. There will be issues like, should foundational mods (Skyrim Script Extender) be monetised, and what will happen to mods relying on those foundations?

This is the first legitimate concern I've read in this thread. The proportional payout mentioned in the OP seems like a first step towards addressing this, but it does not fully solve it.

Still, I don't think this will be a huge issue in practice.

 

[Sinecat]

They sell mods now on Apple store? Wow mobile game has gone forward a lot quicker than I expected. Seriously though that's the same split as you see elsewhere on Steam store where what being sold is completely new material instead of mods using primarily someone else's assets.

Of course someone will mention mods vs original works. Have you ever created an app? Work is work. No doubt many mods take more work to make than many apps.

 

[Netherscourge]

25% is abysmally low. Look at the cuts on Android and Apple store. The creator keeps 70%.

And no, those people don't have to go unpaid for their hard work. If people don't support this bullshit, then the cuts might become more favorable to the creators so that Valve can continue to pick up their free money.

Yea... 25% is bad as flat-rate.

Especially for people who do those huge total-conversion mods.

It deters big modding projects from people who use a considerable amount of "free" time to make them.

 

[Nokterian]

I agree with dawg on this.

https://twitter.com/GuerrillaDawg/status/591312682273374208

People used to make mods because of their passion for a game. Now money will always be in the back of their head.

 

[Dolor]

25% cut is too low, but Valve can do that because what are modders' alternatives?

I am however, incredibly surprised by the negativity in this thread. I for one, have never liked that I can benefit from mods that took hours to make but have no way to pay people for all that work. People who don't care/need to get paid can still release for free. I think this is great.

 

[Morat]

Yeah no. I have donated to the creators of high quality mods in the past and will continue to do so, but I will not be forced to pay for a mod.

 

[Sendou]

Of course someone will mention mods vs original works. Have you ever created an app? Work is work. No doubt many mods take more work to make than many apps.

So what about Bethesda? Didn't they work?

 

[SiKotikJ30]

I can't see myself ever paying for a mod, but I said the same about maps back in the early 2000s.

 

[Krejlooc]

What I see when I read topics like this is gluttonous users disrespecting the entire development process. Topics like this makes me hate developing. My audience seems to actually hold disdain for my career.

 

[zephervack]

Anyone knows the motivations of modders before today? Was is it just love for the community or trying to get notoriety?

How would the option of selling their mods change those motivations?

 

[RulkezX]

25% for the content creator is a slap in the face imo. 50% seems more fair.

They should think themselves lucky they are getting anything making content for IP that they had no part in creating.

 

[Salsa]

am I taking fucking crazy pills?

"this is gross"

"fuck this industry"


.. what? you realize we're talking about modders that are basically just players like you and me? getting money for something they made? and they still have the option to put it up for free?

i might get some of the 25% cut complains but it's still better than the %0 that was there for content creators before, who are able to get money building onto something they had no part in creating in the first place

also, i'd gather the specifics of the cut is more Bethesda than Valve. in this particular case money has to go through 2 different sets of hands

 

[Juniez]

Anyone knows the motivations of modders before today? Was is it just love for the community or trying to get notoriety?

How would the option of selling their mods change those motivations?

no modder would dare admit that they were in it for potential hire / money

 

[Omegasquash]

I don't think this itself is a bad thing, I just don't look forward to the growing pains that are going to come along with it. My fear is that there will be a wealth of shitty content out there, or that folks will feel like they're getting ripped off on said shitty content.

As long as I can mod my games for free, then I'm happy, but I'm equally happy to put coins into someone's hand for quality stuff.

 

[Dolor]

Yeah no. I have donated to the creators of high quality mods in the past and will continue to do so, but I will not be forced to pay for a mod.

Who exactly is forcing anyone to do anything?

Turn the question around... Should modders who do want to be paid for their work have no options to do so?

Before today, modders had no realistic hope of any kind of financial incentive to make more or better mods - only their own desire to do so. Now they could have real financial reasons to do so. If this doesn't lead to a huge increase in the overall quality and quantity of mods for PC games, I would be shocked.

 

[_machine]

What I see when I read topics like this is gluttonous users disrespecting the entire development process. Topics like this makes me hate developing. My audience seems to actually hold disdain for my career.

I feel you, especially after a not so good day of development I should probably stay away from this thread, but it really is super disappointing to see such a massive "fuck you" to content creators.

 

[Juniez]

They should think themselves lucky they are getting anything making content for IP that they had no part in creating.

bethsoft should consider themselves lucky that other people are fixing their games for them

e: "well sure thing, you can work on iterating and expanding on our game. but only if you give us a cut for your portion of the work. does a 25/75 split sound good? 25 would be your part, of course"

 

[Krejlooc]

I agree with dawg on this.

https://twitter.com/GuerrillaDawg/status/591312682273374208

Stupid shit like this. So those who make money arent passionate? I made mods because A) I love my work and B) because the pad my portfolio leading to work.

Here's the secret, guys - devs dont always do work for their audience. Most of what I do, I do for myself, and it just so happens that others love what I do, too.

 

[Noray]

They should think themselves lucky they are getting anything making content for IP that they had no part in creating.

this is a bad and ignorant opinion and you should reconsider.

 

[Sendou]

Anyone knows the motivations of modders before today? Was is it just love for the community or trying to get notoriety?

How would the option of selling their mods change those motivations?

In the meanwhile people see no problems with commercial games. In fact I have noticed that free games rarely get attention on GAF at all.

It's just that is it impossible to imagine that someone might have passion to making great mods while at the same time managing to make a career out of it? Mind-blowing, I know. What's even more mind-blowing that we as the end users could benefit from that. That's literally capitalism. I wonder how some of you guys manage to cope with day to day life.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Ah but a single piece of user generated content that gives Bethesda money is arguably more valuable than 100 mods that don't do that.
Naturally i'm ignoring the fact mods do sell games... But i figure there will be a point when there will be enough sold user generated content it won't matter anymore.

No, i am not optimistic about this. Not at all.

WARNING! LINKS ARE NSFW!

Here's what I'm getting at:

NSFW: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/2666/

Caliente's Beautiful Bodies Edition has over 3.5 million UNIQUE downloads.

NSFW: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/6709/?

Dimonized UNP Female body has over 2 million unique downloads as well.

Valve won't allow this on the Workshop, they'd get torn to pieces.

If Fallout 4/TES next goes Workshop-only, Bethesda is going to lose a crapton of customers. If they have any sense at all they're going to focus on:

-Releasing their next big single-player RPG
-Offering the token workshop support as well as third-party mods. Let the newly-emerged paid-mod market work itself out.
-Introducing DLC. Modders will create mods that require said DLC. Some of those modders will even charge for said mods that require said DLC.
-Spending the next couple years counting money.

 

[Sinecat]

So what about Bethesda? Didn't they work?

Yes and I'm pretty sure they got more than 25% from selling their work on steam.

Mods have a lot of original content: new models, new textures, new code, new ideas.