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New cartridge based non-emulated "Retro" console being kickstarted!
- Thread starter ultrazilla
- Start date
I love that they are using the Jaguar case and the idea itself is cool but I still don't see it gaining any traction with developers.
Also real cartridges will still be relatively expensive to produce and with competition from the big consoles and from the indies that suppirt them, who is going to buy this thing?
Also real cartridges will still be relatively expensive to produce and with competition from the big consoles and from the indies that suppirt them, who is going to buy this thing?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, you may have a point if I say, sell my NNID account, for example, but even if I buy another 3DS and logging in it using my NNID account the games ain't coming back, and I also lost my digital games if I break my 3DS or whatever things happening that make me lost access to my 3DS (stolen, lost, etc etc).
I wouldn't characterize Nintendo's lack of proper account system as a "bit" backwards; it is backwards in the fullest extent possible, and yes, I'd also characterize it as them taking my games away, even indirectly.
The issue is exacerbated even further by the fact that I live in a place where Nintendo has no official support whatsoever, so no "bring police report to and/or call Nintendo" solution for me.
So yeah, it's bloody annoying.
Vipershark
Member
What the heck is this obsession with the vague buzzword known as "Retro"?
Marketing a console specifically on the merit of "uh it's old I guess" is really stupid. There IS some cool potential for a modern old-school cartridge based system specifically for enthusiasts (this post hits it pretty much square on the head) but I don't see this console doing any of that.
If the USB ports are any indication, it seems that they're trying to release some kind of probably-less-useful-than-ouya android box (unless they're going to retrofit the USB protocol to SNES era hardware) which is honestly just really dumb. If this thing actually has to load an OS and doesn't boot immediately into games upon power-on it's completely pointless.
What's even the target demographic here?
I'll reserve judgement for when the Kickstarter is out because I do think this could be a really cool idea if executed correctly, but my hope for that is extremely low.
Marketing a console specifically on the merit of "uh it's old I guess" is really stupid. There IS some cool potential for a modern old-school cartridge based system specifically for enthusiasts (this post hits it pretty much square on the head) but I don't see this console doing any of that.
If the USB ports are any indication, it seems that they're trying to release some kind of probably-less-useful-than-ouya android box (unless they're going to retrofit the USB protocol to SNES era hardware) which is honestly just really dumb. If this thing actually has to load an OS and doesn't boot immediately into games upon power-on it's completely pointless.
What's even the target demographic here?
I'll reserve judgement for when the Kickstarter is out because I do think this could be a really cool idea if executed correctly, but my hope for that is extremely low.
baphomet
Member
The Ouya sells in big box stores all across america. This thing will be lucky to sell anywhere near 10k in its lifetime, that's even if it actually gets far along enough to release. Realistically this may sell 2-3k in its lifetime. They have no games, and no publishers are going to let them use their IPs.
They've already spoken about the first thousand copies of a game having possibly a specific color or something. First thousand...
There are no sales records for the Ouya that I can find, but its most popular game had sold 7,000 copies as of a year ago.
OrbitalBeard
Member
I love the idea of this but I'm very worried it's going to crash and burn. Still, I'll probably end up buying one. Not so sure about supporting a KS though.
Green Yoshi
Member
I know backers that still like their Ouya. Of course it wasn't a big success story. There are better alternatives right now. But this cartridge console is kind of unique.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Let's compare this to traditional painting. It's like saying there's no point for that anymore because digital painting exists. When in fact, that isn't true. The two serve different segments of the art community, and there are still qualities inherent to traditional painting that can never be replicated digitally, and vice-versa.
I guess some of this thinking comes from the mindset of the mainstream tech scene in general; they're always focused on improving and going forward, and technology hasn't been with us as long as oils or watercolor paints. There IS a subsect of the community that appreciates and uses old tech, but in very selective areas, and mostly in a hobby-like fashion.
It was? Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.
Ghost_Messiah
Member
Not sure how accurate this is in terms of correlation to the creator's actual plans but someone on another forum suggested that the cartridges won't actually be honest to god Genesis style super expensive to produce cartridges with like 4mb of data available or whatever. They suggested that they'll be more modern versions of cartridges so essentially a plastic shell housing an SD card. Hence the creator being confident in getting Shovel Knight on the system (which is what like 500mb?). I'd say this is pretty plausible.
Really can't see them going the Resident Evil 2 N64 route and producing one of the most expensive cartridges of all time just to get modern retro throwbacks running on their machine. There's gotta be a catch or compromise with this cartridge idea. I mean they're already cutting costs massively with this Jaguar licensing short cut. I can totally see them saying "hey look cartridges!" when really they're just glorified SD card holders. I mean weren't N64 game prices radically inflated back in the day due to the insane cartridge costs?
I could have sworn I remember reading it cost something like £15 to manufacture a high capacity cartridge. Really can't see them selling Shovel Knight for £60 just to cover unnecessarily inflated production costs. If I'm wrong however and this really is pure retro cartridges from the nineties then god help them. As for the console itself? Cool idea but an idea with a limited audience IMO. Echoing everyone else in that I think this thing will be massive on KS then fail to gain traction in the real world. So Ouya mark two basically.
I'd love to be proven wrong and this shit ends up setting the world on fire and Shovel Knight 2 comes out on this along with something ridiculous like Streets of Rage 4 but without a major hardware manufacturer behind this with some reputation and clout (like say Nintendo) something tells me the KS will succeed while the actual product will flop hard.
Will be watching their KS with interest regardless.
Really can't see them going the Resident Evil 2 N64 route and producing one of the most expensive cartridges of all time just to get modern retro throwbacks running on their machine. There's gotta be a catch or compromise with this cartridge idea. I mean they're already cutting costs massively with this Jaguar licensing short cut. I can totally see them saying "hey look cartridges!" when really they're just glorified SD card holders. I mean weren't N64 game prices radically inflated back in the day due to the insane cartridge costs?
I could have sworn I remember reading it cost something like £15 to manufacture a high capacity cartridge. Really can't see them selling Shovel Knight for £60 just to cover unnecessarily inflated production costs. If I'm wrong however and this really is pure retro cartridges from the nineties then god help them. As for the console itself? Cool idea but an idea with a limited audience IMO. Echoing everyone else in that I think this thing will be massive on KS then fail to gain traction in the real world. So Ouya mark two basically.
I'd love to be proven wrong and this shit ends up setting the world on fire and Shovel Knight 2 comes out on this along with something ridiculous like Streets of Rage 4 but without a major hardware manufacturer behind this with some reputation and clout (like say Nintendo) something tells me the KS will succeed while the actual product will flop hard.
Will be watching their KS with interest regardless.
stan423321
Member
We have a post earlier in the thread that claims contact with project creator and elaborates on some decisions. And these claims claim the whole thing is made with essentially systems on cartridges in mind.
So, yeah...
burn this down
Banned
For what purpose? I mean, there was a reason people moved from cartridges to discs. And who needs this? Why would a buy a console to play games I can already play on other platforms? Because they're on a cartridge this time?
Nostalgia's powerful, but not that powerful.
Nostalgia's powerful, but not that powerful.
stan423321
Member
See, this is exactly why they closed that vinyl section at local electronics store...
...wait, what do you mean they opened one?
Not comparable, really.
Hyrule Warrior
Member
If this system launched, and even if it just had a bunch of indie games I already own, like Shovel Knight, VVVVVV, Axiom Verge...stuff that you associate with old retro consoles...I'd totally buy all those games. They'd have to be kinda bulky with cool labels, but yeah, if they get day one support by some devs at launch, then I'd be down.
Kawika
Member
I think it comes down to how carts are packaged. I would totally be into buying cartridge games on this thing with full color/art manuals. If they manage to convince Capcom and others to port games like Megaman 9 and get indies to bring over their retro-stylied wares they would have a lot of success with retro collectors like me.
I really hope the have RGB and/or component support for those of us with PVM/BVMs. I have concerns with this project but as a backer of the retro gaming mag I'm totally the target market for this. I wish them luck and reserve my negativity till we actually know more.
I really hope the have RGB and/or component support for those of us with PVM/BVMs. I have concerns with this project but as a backer of the retro gaming mag I'm totally the target market for this. I wish them luck and reserve my negativity till we actually know more.
I'm with these guys. In this day and age of modern ARM and Intel Atom processors, I can't see any reason why they would try to use some customized underpowered hardware when it would be so much easier (and possibly cheaper?) to use something decent. Provide enough power for whatever and let developers choose what level of graphic fidelity they want to use.
outunderthestars
Banned
I wonder how many people are going to be willing to pay $30 or so for a physical version of the $5 -$10 game that they most likely already own on PC/ console.
encephalon
Member
I'm guessing they're not going to get far enough to realize why cartridges are terrible.
If they could get a bunch of disenfranchised Japanese devs from the golden age of Japanese gaming on board to make titles, I'd be down. As it is, unless you're Yacht Club Games or Jonathan Lavigne (Ninja Senki, WizOrb) I don't have much confidence. What made cartridge based console games of the 16-bit era worthwhile were the constant stream of quality Japanese developed games. A system like this isn't going to naturally attract that talent unless you seek it out, and I doubt these guys are going to seek it out.
dancrane212
Member
Looking at how successful the physical versions of Retro City Rampage were on Vita/PS4 I definitely think there is an, although small, audience for this kinda thing. It really all depends on how well the console is put together, if (and that's a big "if") it does what the article in the OP says it will I can see a decent number of folk supporting it.
cantona222
Member
That's very ambitious. I have to wait and see.
A new cartridge based system that will rely mostly on exclusive games using expensive cartridges!
I wish them the best
A new cartridge based system that will rely mostly on exclusive games using expensive cartridges!
I wish them the best
The one thing I could see being awesome about this is if it becomes an outlet for indie developers to be able to develop or port physical copies of their games. If they could streamline the process and make it super easy to develop for, with development tools similar to Game Maker, and then allow indies to send final builds in for manufacturing, that could be really cool. Just imagine having a physical copy of a game like Ninja Senki or Maldita Castilla to play on your TV via a cartridge, with complete box and full color instructions and everything?
But they need to think about how to really pull that off for this to be a success.
But they need to think about how to really pull that off for this to be a success.
Dreamwriter
Member
This was mentioned before, but I'm sure many people missed it. For developers, this is kinda like some multi-game-system: each cartridge will be able to modify the hardware to act like a particular game system. For example, let's say someone wanted to write a Genesis-style 16-bit game for it, their cartridge would actually turn the console into a virtual Genesis and load their game onto it, running native Genesis assembly code. Or if you were skilled at programming actual NES games, you can turn the system into an NES just for your game. Do you want an NES that could do 512 colors per screen, you could alter the virtual system to have that capability. The cartridges program an FPGA to create the "hardware" that the game code runs on, and then loads that code into it.
So no, this isn't some Android system like OUYA or a PC, it's definitely something unique and retro. And yeah, it seems the cartridges will be flash-memory-based, so will still be fairly cheap for lots of storage.
So no, this isn't some Android system like OUYA or a PC, it's definitely something unique and retro. And yeah, it seems the cartridges will be flash-memory-based, so will still be fairly cheap for lots of storage.
dancrane212
Member
Doing more reading about this I see that they're aiming to support very small print runs of games with a tentative minimum of 25 copies. If the company can allow developers to produce physical releases without having to commit to 50000+ copies I think the Retro could get decent support from smaller developers.
It's no secret there are developers out there who would love to make a physical release of their game(s) but with the cost barrier being so high it's just not feasible.
It's no secret there are developers out there who would love to make a physical release of their game(s) but with the cost barrier being so high it's just not feasible.
Won't this make getting a game such as Shovel Knight onto the system a humongous pain in the ass though, as that game isn't running on an engine that could be emulated through a NES or Genesis?
Mr Nintendont
Banned
I don't see the appeal at all. There's nothing stopping a dev from making a 8/16 bit game on modern hardware. It's not like this machine provides any special advantage.
stan423321
Member
Honestly an exposed FPGA system is as retro as an emulator is.
Sorcerer
Member
A minimum of 25 copies?
So if I buy this console will I be able to even buy games for it? Because at 25 copies minimum one person is going to buy all 25 copies and put on them on Ebay for $300 a piece.
This is just like Amiibo but worse since once can just blame Nintendo's incompetence. This is playing right into the hands of scalpers from the get go,
If they are not capable of decent print runs, they why even bother with this thing.
dancrane212
Member
The guy headlining this said they're going to have the more traditional bigger print runs of games that they will publish (and I assume will reprint to keep in stock) but will also support smaller developers who don't get their game published by allowing them to do small print runs to do whatever they want with.
Dreamwriter
Member
The FPGA could be just programmed for a basic tile, sprite and sound system, and then you program your game for the standard ARM CPU the system natively uses. The advantage to an FPGA is, you create the game system you want, and there are already many useful things written for FPGAs. It's true you can't just take code for a PC game and recompile it for this device, but you should be able to create a graphics and sound system that will make it easy to recreate a 2D game if you wanted.
Only if you are trying to emulate an existing game, which is not the point of this system. If you are writing a new game for the Retro VGA, this lets you program it in a retro way that you are familiar with, with retro limitations. Like, I'm experienced programming Gameboy Color games in Z-80 assembly, if I wanted I could write something for this in Z-80 and it would run.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Read some of the earlier posts in this thread. The retro scene couldn't give two shits about those generic architectures. We're just as enamored by the hardware as we are by the games, because the best games on older systems worked within (and around) the constraints of the hardware that tried to bind them.
Going with an ARM or Atom-based processor setup that doesn't even try to model-clone older chips just makes it another generic Android game box, and we've seen enough of those failures already.
runnin_blue
Banned
Why would a large game publisher/developer with a back catalogue of games want to put time, money and effort into re-releasing one of their old games for a console with no user base and very little potential for growth?
Unless they're hoping to license the IP and get the ports made themselves?
Still makes no sense.
I love all things retro but this is doomed to fail. How are these guys supposedly industry vets yet they can't see this?
Unless they're hoping to license the IP and get the ports made themselves?
Still makes no sense.
I love all things retro but this is doomed to fail. How are these guys supposedly industry vets yet they can't see this?
Dreamwriter
Member
More details (from AtariAge forums a month ago):
"I just wanted to address the cartridge pricing. We will be doing all manufacturing of both the consoles and cartridges here in the USA (PCB's however, will be contract manufactured and arrive to our facility as a sub assembly), under our own roof, in Southern California. Carts will be priced based on the games that are on them. For example, a new game from a fledgling indie or homebrew developer might be priced $19.99 while a popular franchise sequel might be $40-$50 depending on licensing costs mainly! And everything inbetween. So the short answer are carts will be priced from $19.99 to $49.99.
We are targeting the console to be $149.99. The retail box will include the console with four controller ports ( x 2 USB for the x 2 pack-in controllers and x 2 9-Pin ports for classic controllers), a pack-in game (possibly up to three pack-in games only for Kickstarter buyers), HDMI cable (and possibly composite and/or S-Video too) and AC Adapter. There is a small chance this might have to price out at $179.99 based on system hardware which will be a gamers and developers delight. . . . but doing all we can to try and stay at that $150 price point."
"I just wanted to address the cartridge pricing. We will be doing all manufacturing of both the consoles and cartridges here in the USA (PCB's however, will be contract manufactured and arrive to our facility as a sub assembly), under our own roof, in Southern California. Carts will be priced based on the games that are on them. For example, a new game from a fledgling indie or homebrew developer might be priced $19.99 while a popular franchise sequel might be $40-$50 depending on licensing costs mainly! And everything inbetween. So the short answer are carts will be priced from $19.99 to $49.99.
We are targeting the console to be $149.99. The retail box will include the console with four controller ports ( x 2 USB for the x 2 pack-in controllers and x 2 9-Pin ports for classic controllers), a pack-in game (possibly up to three pack-in games only for Kickstarter buyers), HDMI cable (and possibly composite and/or S-Video too) and AC Adapter. There is a small chance this might have to price out at $179.99 based on system hardware which will be a gamers and developers delight. . . . but doing all we can to try and stay at that $150 price point."
Kawika
Member
I can't speak for everyone but I would be likely to spend that extra money if they did a good job on the cartridge and collectible aspects. I know its not the same but Nintendo is making a killing on nearly useless Toys (I am guilty of buying these too). Some people who grew up with games in that era really have nostalgia for that sort of thing. Its really depressing in this day and age when you buy a game and all thats is in the box is the disc and maybe a dlc code.
Dreamwriter
Member
I pledged $150 for Volgarr the Viking's Kickstarter so I could have this:
There are crazy people out there who love special collector's editions, and I imagine a Retro VGS version of a retro-style game would be a pretty cool collectible.
There are crazy people out there who love special collector's editions, and I imagine a Retro VGS version of a retro-style game would be a pretty cool collectible.
nobodyshero
Banned
this will never get made. i respect the ambition, but it's really quite a bad idea!
Dreamwriter
Member
They just showed off some Kickstarter-only colors
https://www.facebook.com/pages/RETRO-VGS/783316545070951
https://www.facebook.com/pages/RETRO-VGS/783316545070951