Support NeoGAF

[Bookman]

no online connection is a bad idea, they should have it as an option at least.
The branding is afull, I get that they want old school games but they shouldent have "retro" in the name. People will think its a nes/snes player. They are planing New games? A name that associate to retro gaming but not direct using the word retro would be wiser.

I think I will kickstart this anyway, it would be cool to have games like "sword of xolan" and games like that on this consol and it would be awsome to have som e "bigger"releases like mighty number 8 (9 unknown brother, like in 8-bit you know or even some cool assasins creed game ( I here there is to few of them) but I fear thats not going to happend. Still, whishes them Thé best of luck.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Online is still possible, just not built-in. The device has two USB ports on the front, and will at the minimum support normal USB Gamepads. Which means they are normal USB ports, so if the thing takes off I could see developers writing/adapting driver libraries for USB wifi receivers. The system isn't going to have any kind of OS front end or storage, though, so don't expect downloadable games or patches, just online leaderboards and multiplayer and stuff.

As for big publishers, while these guys of course hope for that, so did OUYA, and even with their 60,000 Kickstarter presales, record-breaking Kickstarter funding, and easy Android ports, they were unable to get much more than "we'll support it if it sells good after launch." All OUYA got was Square-Enix and Sega, porting over a couple Android games. Having said that, it's possible that the Retro VGS team is more persuasive than OUYA, especially as they seem to be offering to license the franchises for their own development of nothing else.

And remember, whatever else happens, we are getting 20 guaranteed launch titles as long as the Kickstarter is successful.

 

[NoFaceNico]

As for big publishers, while these guys of course hope for that, so did OUYA, and even with their 60,000 Kickstarter presales, record-breaking Kickstarter funding, and easy Android ports, they were unable to get much more than "we'll support it if it sells good after launch." All OUYA got was Square-Enix and Sega, porting over a couple Android games. Having said that, it's possible that the Retro VGS team is more persuasive than OUYA, especially as they seem to be offering to license the franchises for their own development of nothing else.

The OUYA was a marketing juggernaut, it was scary. I followed their Kickstarter but decided not to back them. Marketing is not as easy as it looks and the OUYA team had many employees and an army supporters backing them up. I think the OUYA team were as persuasive as you're ever going to get.

I get the heebie jeebies every time I see a Kickstarter hopeful start offering to take on additional [monumental] tasks, like doing development for a licensed franchise. It's one of those claims that's easy to make but hard for a Kickstarter team to deliver. I'll believe it when I see it. You can never take these Kickstarter projects on face value, after the money has been collected the backers hold all the risk if those claims don't deliver.

And remember, whatever else happens, we are getting 20 guaranteed launch titles as long as the Kickstarter is successful.

I'm gettin' those heebie jeebies again. It's like when that man with the covered wagon came into town and said he could cure my flat feet with his Oleum Serpentes. He said it would need 48 hours to take effect... just enough time for him to leave town faster than my oily flat feet could chase him.

 

[Dreamwriter]

I get the heebie jeebies every time I see a Kickstarter hopeful start offering to take on additional [monumental] tasks, like doing development for a licensed franchise. It's one of those claims that's easy to make but hard for a Kickstarter team to deliver.

Well, you have to realize the scope of some of these. For example, one example that was given in an interview was a sequel to the old arcade game Scramble. They were trying to think of old franchises that haven't been touched in a long time, not something like Castlevania or Assassin's Creed (though I bet they'd jump for joy if they got the go ahead to make a Castlevania in the spirit of the old NES game).

 

[ultrazilla]

The Retrovgs Facebook page has posted that we can expect more game announcements
very soon.

https://m.facebook.com/RETROVGS#!/story.php?story_fbid=848140565255215&id=783316545070951&refid=17&_ft_=top_level_post_id.848140565255215&__tn__=%2As

 

[s_mirage]

... So, this SID wouldn't be identical to the original MOS/ CSG chip; the filters used will be of a different kind. I wonder how closely it would sound - maybe it will have its own identity...

One SID isn't identical to another SID anyway. The filters in the 6581s could vary greatly between chips, while the later 8580s tended to be more uniform (which is why a lot of modern tunes are written for them). Modern PC emulations let you change the filter response to simulate different examples of real chips. Now, how accurate or flexible an FPGA implementation would be is another matter.

 

[j^aws]

One SID isn't identical to another SID anyway. The filters in the 6581s could vary greatly between chips, while the later 8580s tended to be more uniform (which is why a lot of modern tunes are written for them). Modern PC emulations let you change the filter response to simulate different examples of real chips. Now, how accurate or flexible an FPGA implementation would be is another matter.

Yes, there are subtle differences between various incarnations of the SID chip, which is why I have two ISA cards, one with a 6581 SID (circa 1985) and with a 8580 SID (circa 1992), which are replicas of the Innovations SSI-2001. And these subtle differences provide a pleasing pseudo-stereo effect.

Now, what I was trying to highlight was that, according to the technical document linked earlier, the filters provided by the FPGA would be digital, as opposed to analogue filters in the original SID chips, and pondering how different these filters would sound. This was replying to the poster that mentioned how difficult authentic SID emulation has been.

They should provide sound demos for this Kickstarter which compare original sound chips to FPGA outputs...

 

[grendelrt]

Went to Barnes and Noble to find the print magazine, but they didn't have it. Ordered a subscription, will be interesting to see if they have some coverage of the console in the coming months.

It has been stated I believe that the console will have analog and digital video out. Really hoping for rgb out and dev support for 240p,480i would suck lol

 

[Dreamwriter]

Got any questions about the RetroVGS? They are collecting questions to answer during the Kickstarter video:

https://www.facebook.com/RETROVGS/posts/848809395188332

 

[Khaz]

Got any questions about the RetroVGS? They are collecting questions to answer during the Kickstarter video:

https://www.facebook.com/RETROVGS/posts/848809395188332

Eh, if anyone wants to ask this on my behalf:
"Why, as a homebrew game developer, would I want to develop for your new console instead of a real retro console with an established user base and a comprehensive development environment, like the NES, Megadrive or Dreamcast?"

Or the more neutral version:
"what is the difference between your new console and the original 8/16/32bit consoles?"

Another funny one:
'Besides the cartridge/SD port, what's the difference between the Retro VGS and the Ouya?"

 

[NoFaceNico]

Ouch. Next you're going to ask about how much ivory each console contains. But seriously, those are valid questions regardless of how harsh.

Of course the Kickstarter will tell price and other important details but my not-so-obvious question is always the same: how much did the Jaguar molds cost and are Kickstarter funds going be used to pay for them. Another good one is which game makers have fully committed to porting/developing a game to the console.

I haven't used Facebook in years, I used it for a class a long time ago. If I can get my login to work I'll try to ask them myself.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I'm more interested in seeing where this will end up in the annals of history rather than the actual console.

 

[Dreamwriter]

how much did the Jaguar molds cost and are Kickstarter funds going be used to pay for them.

As I understand it from watching their interviews, they paid very little for the Jaguar molds. The molds were first offered on eBay for $6,000, but nobody bid on the auction. Later the Retro VGS guys approached the owner directly and offered him a lot less, and took them off his hands (but only the Jaguar case and cartridge molds, not the controller molds).

The molds paid for themselves and then some, because the first thing the Retro VGS guys did was offer to sell a single run of transparent Jaguar cases to Jaguar owners on an Atari forum, and they made something like $10,000 from that.

In fact, that gives us a good preview of what the transparent RetroVGS will actually look like, someone's modded Jaguar:

 

[Orayn]

As I understand it from watching their interviews, they paid very little for the Jaguar molds. The molds were first offered on eBay for $6,000, but nobody bid on the auction. Later the Retro VGS guys approached the owner directly and offered him a lot less, and took them off his hands (but only the Jaguar case and cartridge molds, not the controller molds).

The molds paid for themselves and then some, because the first thing the Retro VGS guys did was offer to sell a single run of transparent Jaguar cases to Jaguar owners on an Atari forum, and they made something like $10,000 from that.

In fact, that gives us a good preview of what the transparent RetroVGS will actually look like, someone's modded Jaguar:

This was a really good move on their part. Injection molding is incredibly front-loaded and each half of a Jaguar-sized system could run well into the 5-figure range if they were designing new ones from scratch.

 

[NoFaceNico]

If the Jaguar molds have paid for themselves, then that's pretty cool. I'm just cautious since a lot of KS horror stories include funds drying up after the founder spends them on "necessary" things that weren't revealed in the pitch like moving expenses, misc. fees or renting space/equipment.

 

[dancrane212]

40 minute interview (by a guy on Youtube) with Mike Kennedy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL-YQbf3NTE

I know it's far too expensive, but it's too bad masked roms aren't an option anymore; if you're looking for durability in game preservation, there's few better options. 100-year flash or hard drives can't compare.

Going around talking about how systems like the 360 and it's contemporaries won't be around in ten years due to disk drives failing and servers going offline and then suggesting having a HDD in your carts for big games is pretty hilarious. Having the biggest point of failure existing in the main selling point of your console seems worse than a replaceable part of a console.

I replaced the laser in my PSOne without issue - can the same be said for fixing a busted HDD cartridge on the VGS? Wouldn't that "ruin" the value?

 

[Dreamwriter]

Going around talking about how systems like the 360 and it's contemporaries won't be around in ten years due to disk drives failing and servers going offline and then suggesting having a HDD in your carts for big games is pretty hilarious. Having the biggest point of failure existing in the main selling point of your console seems worse than a replaceable part of a console.

I replaced the laser in my PSOne without issue - can the same be said for fixing a busted HDD cartridge on the VGS? Wouldn't that "ruin" the value?

Well, they expect most games to be on their 100-year flash carts. He talked about it only being a few really gigantic games that would be on those hard-drive carts (large PC games that are ported directly), and for those he said they were working on drive-carts that would last 20+ years. They are trying to make it easiest for developers to get their games onto the Retro VGS, no matter how the games were developed, and this is obviously an extreme case for developers of existing PC titles not willing to rewrite their game to support real memory-saving tiles and color palettes (as an actual retro title there's no reason for Shovel Knight to require as much storage as it does as a modern PC/console title). I'm sure they'll have those drive-cart games labeled, so people who really care about longevity will avoid them.

And I don't see how it's worse than console parts - I personally don't know where to find a PS1 drive laser or belt or anything, but there are a billion sources of standardized hard drive parts, assuming they use something fairly standard inside.

 

[dancrane212]

Well, they expect most games to be on their 100-year flash carts. He talked about it only being a few really gigantic games that would be on those hard-drive carts (large PC games that are ported directly), and for those he said they were working on drive-carts that would last 20+ years. They are trying to make it easiest for developers to get their games onto the Retro VGS, no matter how the games were developed, and this is obviously an extreme case for developers of existing PC titles not willing to rewrite their game to support real memory-saving tiles and color palettes (as an actual retro title there's no reason for Shovel Knight to require as much storage as it does as a modern PC/console title). I'm sure they'll have those drive-cart games labeled, so people who really care about longevity will avoid them.

And I don't see how it's worse than console parts - I personally don't know where to find a PS1 drive laser or belt or anything, but there are a billion sources of standardized hard drive parts, assuming they use something fairly standard inside.

Does that replacement HDD come with the game on it? Going to rip all your games to a PC to send back to a cart when the drive fails? It took 1 Google search and $10 all-in-one part to get my PSOne playing all my original games, so I'd say that's a simpler process than replacing and restoring a collection of games. Hell, at that point you're just making your own reproduction cartridge.

The thing that is likely to break shouldn't be my media but the device that plays them. The other way around is far worse where games that get small print runs can fail but the ubiquitous hardware that will be sold for much longer will last for a good long time.

 

[Dreamwriter]

I didn't say anything about replacing the hard drive inside (and thus needing to re-burn it or whatever), I was talking about what you were, replacement parts. You found a very specialized part for a console that hasn't been manufactured in almost 10 years, but hard drives have been using standardized parts for years and there are a gazillion of them in use, and will be for years to come. So if you could find a PS1 laser assembly, imagine how easy it will be to find hard drive belts or whatever.

But anyways, as I said most Retro VGS games will be on the normal 100-year flash carts, so while using hard drives sucks compared to that, I'd say it's acceptable for the few games that will need it (more acceptable than a $75-$100 retro game cartridge - we had enough of those back in the 16-bit era).

 

[dancrane212]

I didn't say anything about replacing the hard drive inside (and thus needing to re-burn it or whatever), I was talking about what you were, replacement parts. You found a very specialized part for a console that hasn't been manufactured in almost 10 years, but hard drives have been using standardized parts for years and there are a gazillion of them in use, and will be for years to come. So if you could find a PS1 laser assembly, imagine how easy it will be to find hard drive belts or whatever.

But anyways, as I said most Retro VGS games will be on the normal 100-year flash carts, so while using hard drives sucks compared to that, I'd say it's acceptable for the few games that will need it (more acceptable than a $75-$100 retro game cartridge - we had enough of those back in the 16-bit era).

I wasn't talking about the availability of replacement parts. The "without issue" was because all it took was replacing a laser to play my PS1 library, that isn't an option for a HDD with the game data on it unless you preemptively back it up or having another copy to rip. Should have made that clearer.

I'm saying that going around talking up how your setup is better for longevity is 100% bullshit when the games people on that facebook page are asking about like Shovel Knight are going to be dead in 20+ years. I think the "extreme case" is the folk who will rewrite their games to work on this smaller platform, not the other way around.

By the way those lasers still get made today, just not by Sony.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

This project went dormant for the last 10 days, but today there was an update on Facebook:

"Hey Everyone! We are still here and working feverishly to forward the RETRO VGS. Working on some BIG things now that could have positive lasting effects on this venture. Hold tight we will be lighting things back up soon."

https://www.facebook.com/RETROVGS

 

[Hubbl3]

New game announcement: Adventures in the Tower of Flight

Video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNXD8QRCu6Y

Looks like Kid Icarus kind of gameplay.


Edit: Facebook link for announcement
https://m.facebook.com/RETROVGS?refsrc=https://www.facebook.com/RETROVGS

 

[emb]

New game announcement: Adventures in the Tower of Flight



Video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNXD8QRCu6Y


Looks like Kid Icarus kind of gameplay.

Game looks reasonably fun, but that's some weak cover art. Makes it look like a flash game or something.

 

[Hubbl3]

Game looks reasonably fun, but that's some weak cover art. Makes it look like a flash game or something.

Agreed! Some people on Facebook were saying the same thing, haha. I really hope the final artwork for a lot of these games change before they launch.

 

[Khaz]

It's the artwork they've been using to sell the game on Steam, so I doubt it.

 

[Trogdor1123]

I loved cartridges, im super interested!

 

[Teknoman]

Keeping an eye out... if they could get some nice exclusives or new games from lesser known older companies...would be great. Its not going to be something people really want if its just retro style steam games and indie titles available everywhere.

 

[Khaz]

Any word on RGB/240p?

 

[baphomet]

Any word on RGB/240p?

Extremely doubtful.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Any word on RGB/240p?

RETRO VGS is a premium game console that outputs high-quality audio and video simultaneously in digital and analog formats. It can connect to televisions anywhere in the world via HDMI 1.3 and allows easy recording of sound and NTSC composite video (or Y/C S-Video via mini-DIN), even while playing in high definition.

So according to that it can do composite, s-video, or HDMI. It doesn't sound like component/rgb is an option.

 

[Kawika]

So according to that it can do composite, s-video, or HDMI. It doesn't sound like component/rgb is an option.

The main demo of this market is Retro gamers. Many of us have RGB set ups via Sony PVM or XRGB. Not having RGB (or a the least component) out seems extremely short sited.

 

[Slermy]

New game announcement: Adventures in the Tower of Flight

Looks like Kid Icarus kind of gameplay.

That looks pretty good, I'm digging the dancing pink, singular eyeballed enemy.

 

[Ghost_Messiah]

New game announcement: Adventures in the Tower of Flight

Video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNXD8QRCu6Y

Looks like Kid Icarus kind of gameplay.

Well, for a platform that doesn't actually exist yet and doesn't even have secured funding these game announcements are pretty amazing. This along with Tiny Knight have me interested in the platform. One worrying trend I'm seeing is that these games are pretty much just clones of older games. Tiny Knight is heavily derivative of Wonderboy and Tower of Flight is very similar to Alex Kidd in Miracle World. Each game seems to have a twist or expansion to differentiate itself (Tiny Knight's special abilities; the wind and flight theme of Tower of Flight) that I suppose makes them a little more original but I do still feel a little worried. The games don't feel sufficiently distinctive.

I think I'm not seeing the killer app for this yet. Something with the power of Shovel Knight, but perhaps an original game exclusive to their platform. However alluring these games announcements may seem they are available on other platforms. I mean Tower of Flight is available right now on Steam and has been so for a month. What incentive do I have to pay ~$180 for this machine when I could play this game right now on my computer at a price that is almost certainly going to be lower via digital than buying the game on a cartridge? That's the worrying thing too. I can see the cartridge format drastically inflating the game's price.

I'm still very interested in this. When I have the funds available I might even buy one/pledge on Kickstarter. Right now however this needs a killer app and it needs something beyond derivative and obscure low-end ports. It needs hardcore exclusives, stronger support and compelling reasons to choose this console.

However given how early we are with this machine not even being produced or funded yet I'd say their efforts are quite impressive.

 

[Khaz]

Securing these games isn't amazing. It's a Unity game, making an Android version is as easy as clicking on Compile. Ouya RetroVGS is in charge of making the cartridges. Basically they are promising more sales and an expanded market in exchange for a small cut, for a game that would profit at the first cartridge sold.

 

[Ghost_Messiah]

Securing these games isn't amazing. It's a Unity game, making an Android version is as easy as clicking on Compile. Ouya RetroVGS is in charge of making the cartridges. Basically they are promising more sales and an expanded market in exchange for a small cut, for a game that would profit at the first cartridge sold.

I meant it's amazing in the sense that the console doesn't even exist yet, the console doesn't have secured funding and it's not exactly coming from the most confident source given the holding company is just a Retro themed magazine that even itself came from Kickstarter. I meant that it's amazing that promising game announcements are coming so early when the console has barely even got off the ground yet. As in the speed and frequency of the announcements given there's not even a guarantee yet this thing is even going to be released. That is amazing.

Perhaps amazing is too strong of a word. Surprisingly impressive?

 

[Peltz]

The main demo of this market is Retro gamers. Many of us have RGB set ups via Sony PVM or XRGB. Not having RGB (or a the least component) out seems extremely short sited.

This. So much this.

 

[Krejlooc]

It's a Unity game, making an Android version is as easy as clicking on Compile.

What an extreme oversimplification. What that will do is get you something that functionally runs on android. There is still considerable amounts of development that needs to be done to get it running well.

 

[Glix]

That game posted above look pretty damn cool! Maybe there is some hope\hype for this thing after all

 

[Dreamwriter]

Securing these games isn't amazing. It's a Unity game, making an Android version is as easy as clicking on Compile. Ouya RetroVGS is in charge of making the cartridges. Basically they are promising more sales and an expanded market in exchange for a small cut, for a game that would profit at the first cartridge sold.

Um, what you say would be true if this were an Android device. From what they've said it is not, in any way, shape or form. As far as I know the device only boots enough of an OS to install an FPGA core from the cartridge and then load code into memory from it.

And BTW, I made a game for OUYA, that was a HELL of a lot more work than "press compile", especially making stuff for their in-app-purchase system.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

I really hope Scott Pilgrim vs. The World gets released for this.

 

[Khaz]

Um, what you say would be true if this were an Android device. From what they've said it is not, in any way, shape or form. As far as I know the device only boots enough of an OS to install an FPGA core from the cartridge and then load code into memory from it.

I'm betting my ass it's using Android. It's using an ARM processor to play modern games, they want indie games developers so they need a platform they can work on easily. They're not going to make a new OS out of thin air like Nintendo or Sony (and even they aren't), it has to run some sort of Linux. Android is their safest bet, the same OS the Ouya and Retron5 people chose.

And BTW, I made a game for OUYA, that was a HELL of a lot more work than "press compile", especially making stuff for their in-app-purchase system.

I oversimplified the Android port, I agree. Still, porting isn't the most difficult thing to do for a dev, especially when the game is designed to be multiplatform already. It's telling that your most difficult work was to implement online capabilities when we are discussing a completely offline console.

 

[Dreamwriter]

I'm betting my ass it's using Android. It's using an ARM processor to play modern games, they want indie games developers so they need a platform they can work on easily. They're not going to make a new OS out of thin air like Nintendo or Sony (and even they aren't), it has to run some sort of Linux. Android is their safest bet, the same OS the Ouya and Retron5 people chose.

Why would they use an entire (and huge) graphical OS like Android, when the system isn't ever going to boot up into any sort of graphical OS? As you said, a minimalistic Linux or DOS would be perfect, all it needs are some basic file manipulation abilities (which BTW wouldn't be hard to implement from scratch at all, but there's no need to reinvent the wheel).

As for the ARM processor, the Gameboy Advance had an ARM processor, it didn't run Linux or Android or anything else; it had no OS whatsoever. Having an ARM processor means nothing, it's currently the most popular company for CPUs for embedded devices.

 

[Tempy]

I'm betting my ass it's using Android.

Bookmarking. I'll provide the plate.

 

[Dreamwriter]

The main demo of this market is Retro gamers. Many of us have RGB set ups via Sony PVM or XRGB. Not having RGB (or a the least component) out seems extremely short sited.

They just posted the back of the console:

...maybe that second DIN connector is for RGB? It's got a lot more pins than the S-Video next to it.

 

[Zubz]

I really hope Scott Pilgrim vs. The World gets released for this.

I mean, the license has expired, so it's a little late for that, but that's the good thing about physical copies; the resale market might be rough, but it's not nigh-impossible for someone to get the game. It's an outright shame that the game got delisted.

 

[Peltz]

They just posted the back of the console:

...maybe that second DIN connector is for RGB? It's got a lot more pins than the S-Video next to it.

It's possible. Comparison of a Neo Geo CD's RGB output port (far left):

Let's not also forget, Jaguar natively supported SCART out of the box which is what the mold is based upon:

(Borrowed from this thread).

 

[ultrazilla]

They just posted the back of the console:

...maybe that second DIN connector is for RGB? It's got a lot more pins than the S-Video next to it.

Was just coming to post this Dream! That looks super sexy!

Oh and what do you folks think about this?

https://3drealms.com/catalog/

Yes, 3drealms is very MUCH ALIVE and kicking! Who wouldn't want Duke Nukem, Blake Stone, Commander Keen, Death Rally, etc on brand new boxed cartridges!

Man, if they could get 3drealms support on the RETROVGS, that would be killer!

 

[Dreamwriter]

BTW, for those not in the know, showing a back panel is a big milestone for a specific reason: while they have the molds for the Atari Jaguar case and cartridges, they don't have the mold for the Jaguar's back panel, so they had to design this one all themselves.

 

[OnPoint]

That Adventures in the Tower of Flight does not look great to me. Sorry. Looks super boring and really basic.

Still curious about this console though.

 

[Shaneus]

BTW, for those not in the know, showing a back panel is a big milestone for a specific reason: while they have the molds for the Atari Jaguar case and cartridges, they don't have the mold for the Jaguar's back panel, so they had to design this one all themselves.

Even if they did, they'd still have to design one themselves for all the different outputs, I'd imagine.