Just looking at this why does it feel like any independent console project or anything not Sony or Nintendo get the controller wrong. Like how hard is it the ground work has been laid by those two companies just make it close to that. The controller for this thing looks terrible.
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New cartridge based non-emulated "Retro" console being kickstarted!
- Thread starter ultrazilla
- Start date
Dreamwriter
Member
The controller is a SNES controller with a handle and dual analogues added.
The d pad is way too far in. There is really no need to even put sticks on a console for retro style games. They should just cut out the snes center part and call it a day.
Dreamwriter
Member
They say developers asked for the dual sticks for Smash TV style shooters (which often in arcades had support for more than 8 directions)
ImaLemming
Member
Could it be a patent problem? Nintendo had a patent on its style of D-pad, which is why Sega used a circular one and Sony had the middle of the pad under the controller shell.
Or the designers just don't know what they're doing.
If they want the sticks so bad put two in the middle like a PS controller. The D Pad should be the most accessible movement control for games like this.
NoFaceNico
Member
Patents only last a maximum of 20 years after filing and 14 years after being granted. So as far as I know their patent on the d-pad is no longer protected.
bmcphail2008
Member
Unless I've missed something, I haven't seen a single Smash TV style shooter announced for this thing and I'm not aware of any developers actively developing such a game, so I suspect this was just a weak way of explaining away the fact that they have just gone with an off the shelf third party controller solution and knew they couldn't afford to build a new controller from scratch.
DannyDanger
Member
Why?
I don't get this kind of stuff
I don't get this kind of stuff
if they really are going to start using cartridges, this idea is even worse than the ouya. shovel knight is already being released on 3ds cartridge and discs, and even that is a move to appeal to niche audiences.
should just sell retron 5 ish consoles and make a snes or genesis cartridge repro if you so desire.
should just sell retron 5 ish consoles and make a snes or genesis cartridge repro if you so desire.
stan423321
Member
Erm, no. The game detects what cable you use and adjusts display accordingly. Although multiple games do, actually, render in something resembling 240p already and upscale it, so it's no big deal.
That said, people complaining about 1 GiB of RAM should complain about 240p as an allowed mode to be honest. Making game work in 240p does sound quite limiting - not much stuff will fit there!
You can't detect an RGB cable, or a Composite/S-Video/Component for that matter. It has to be an option ingame. And when you have the option to change the resolution from as low as 240p to as high as 1080p, one of them will get shafted. Either you will loose information in 240p or you will not get the details that 1080p allows.
And about "240p is limiting", 240p / 480i was the standard resolution for consoles up to the Wii, Xbox and PS2. The name of this console is RetroVGS and aims to provide the experience of old. Last I checked, no one complained about 240p not having enough screen estate on these consoles.
They need to clarify the resolution clash. Is this console meant to be played on an old-school CRT, like an old school console, but with a satisfying option for modern day displays? Or is it meant for modern displays with the (late) addition of RGB to calm down the purists? I hope it's the former but I suspect it's the latter.
Klart
Member
Retron 5 does that, no?
Dreamwriter
Member
Retron 5 is worse than using emulators on PC - in fact, Retron 5 *is* using emulators, and illegal unlicensed ones at that - when you put your cartridge in it rips the ROM from the cartridge and then runs it on an emulator they ripped off from the emulator developer.
They basically have:
RetroVGS FAQ said:
stan423321
Member
You can detect a cable in general, as seen with headphone cable in almost every phone. If Retro VGS doesn't allow for even basic cable detection (i.e.: HDMI or no HDMI) this is basically their dev team's fault which is pretty much separate from allowing multiple resolutions.
NoFaceNico
Member
More importantly, the ethos behind the system's design is the idea of having no OS, it just plays the cartridge after turning it on. So cable detection will be a necessity unless every game has the option in their settings menu.... or maybe some games won't give you the option to choose certain outputs.
goldenpp72
Member
So, what's the status of this thing? Is it actually going to happen and if so what will be on it? The original post doesn't show a bunch.
Dreamwriter
Member
The Kickstarter starts the week of September 14, they've announced a few games that will be available at launch (and will be selectable in the Kickstarter along with your launch system). Some announced games: Infernax, Song Bringer, Adventure in the Tower of Flight, Piers Solar. At one point they said there will be 20 launch titles that will be part of the Kickstarter.
From what I've heard,
Kickstarter planned for September now:
Some specs:
Some games so far:
http://www.retrovgs.com/games.html
Seems like I heard about another game or two, idk. So far there aren't any games I've seen that make me really want one, for the sake of the software.
Headphones sockets have a switch in it, I don't know of any other socket designed in a similar way, especially not RCA or DIN. HDMI is a special case as it's digital and can detect the display by "talking" to it, but not every display behaves and it's not uncommon to have to manually set it up. I've had quite a few boxes that had both digital and analogue output but not at the same time, and every time I needed to switch from digital to analogue I had to configure it beforehand, then go blind while changing the cabling. What's more likely is that both will be output at the same time with a choice of low-res/upscale or high-res/downscale in a menu. A mirrored output won't put a strain on the system.
Actually, their goal regarding resolution and outputs is in their FAQ, although phrased in a weird way:
What they are saying is that analogue NTSC is the preferred way to use the console, with HDMI being second. A few paragraphs below they talk about upscaling low-res images. They should be more clear about what "Analogue NTSC" means though, and how the various parts of the world can use analogue video (ie Scart TVs accept 60Hz just fine, PAL/NTSC is an encoding only relevant for Composite and S-Video, etc.)
20 games really is something! I know Shovel Knight and Retro city rampage were rumoured to be on it, if they are and are native 240p I could see myself go for it. The games designed for other consoles like Tiny Knight, Pier Solar, Sydney Hunter, will most likely run on an emulated FPGA core and I would just get them on the original console instead.
Dreamwriter
Member
Posted to Facebook:
Retro VGS said:RVGS FANS! WayForward is excited about the potential of our new cartridge based console and are taking a wait and see approach. If we show the demand is there during the Kickstarter campaign, then I think we will clinch them as a RVGS developer and might even announce one of these exclusive Kickstarter only cartridge colors. We need all of you guys to help make the RVGS possible by spreading the word to all your gaming friends and family. The time is drawing near! Red or Purple?
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
I'm surprised to see Pier Solar listed as a launch title. They haven't exactly been timely with getting their physical copies on other platforms out.
I believe Retro is in charge of all the manufacture processes, devs just submit their code. Since the RetroVGS is also an emulation machine, it's almost free money for WM: they just have to make sure their Megadrive ROM works with the Megadrive core Retro has designed.
Dreamwriter
Member
...which Retro doesn't have yet. But that's probably what a lot of the year before its release is going to be, making/acquiring 16-bit cores.
We are discussing bringing the Dreamcast version of Pier Solar to RVGS
Or even possibly the Higher-Def console version.Also we will have a booth at Game On Expo in Mesa, AZ next weekend. If any of you are in the area be sure to stop by and introduce yourself.
stan423321
Member
I don't read it this way. They don't want to make an "European" model, but HDMI happens to be region free, so to say. So with them shipping "American" model to "Europe", "Europeans" should use the digital option because the other one may not work on their TVs; I don't see how you infer that it would be preferred otherwise.
Emperor Bohe
Member
Shantae is a pretty cool addition if they pull it off.
Dreamwriter
Member
Bar81
Member
I think I'm in as well if that happens.
I know, right?
Yup, translucent purple carts would go well with that.
Needs to rival the best Famicom cart ever:
I would totally consider buying something like that, I own all the original consoles but its a pain to set up and to keep an old TV.
BUT I would never back this kind of project on Kickstarter. Way to risky and Kickstarter's policy is too crazy to invest real money into something.
BUT I would never back this kind of project on Kickstarter. Way to risky and Kickstarter's policy is too crazy to invest real money into something.
Dreamwriter
Member
Eh? Their policy is that all pledge rewards MUST be delivered to pledgers, no matter what. If that reward happens to be the product you are pledging for, then the policy is they must deliver it.
Kickstarter Policy said:
baphomet
Member
It's very unlikely that jaguar carts will have the same pinout as this.
dancrane212
Member
But Kickstarter isn't going to go out and get your money back for you if you don't get the promised reward. It's on the campaign owners to do it themselves or for the backers to go a make them via lawsuit. Not a great policy for backers when things go sideways.
NoFaceNico
Member
No, not true. They must try, but they don't have to deliver. That's why every project has a "risks and challenges" section. This was infamously pointed out by Yogcast after they announced the failure of their project and stated that they have "no obligation" to make things right for their backers. That prompted Kickstarter to reword their terms of service to put pressure on the creators but they're still a paper tiger because Kickstarter has a strict hands-off policy towards the projects it hosts after they're funded. Which is smart for them because if the project fails it's not on their hands.
And fail they do... 7 Spectacular Crowdfunding Fails but in all fairness some of those listed are not complete failures in the sense of being undelivered, some of those products delivered but didn't do what they promised.
Some notable failures I'm aware of:
iControlPad 2 - this guy is a serial con-artist. I thought it would fail and sure enough, it did.
sad pictures for children - an unfunny webcomic artist Kickstarts a book and decides that the funniest thing he can do is partially deliver, then burn the remaining undelivered books in a bonfire and send the video to his backers with an anti-capitalism rant.
The Doom That Came to Atlantic City - this is one of the first high profile failures, the FTC got involved and what did they recover? Nothing! The guy got off with a slap on the wrist, no repayment to the backers. Thankfully a company that took over the IP decided to give the finished board game to backers for free. Even though the backers lucked out in the end it shows how ineffectual it is to enforce Kickstarter project creators.
ZRRO - this one hasn't technically failed yet, but their campaign funding was super sketchy and they haven't had the best communication with backers, who are becoming nervous by the day. If you want to watch a car wreck in slow motion then keep an eye on this one.
CST-01 - a very recent failure, and a very sad one because you can tell the creators tried very hard, had the best of intentions, went above and beyond but manufacturing problems caught up with them and now they're stuck in a bad situation. I have sympathy for them but for most of the backers good intentions are no substitute for delivery.
So yeah, there is no crystal ball, every project carries risk and going after project creators that don't deliver is a waste of time and [more] money.
iddqd, you're probably right to avoid Kickstarter. It's not for everyone, some people don't have the patience or money to risk on these projects and that's perfectly fine. Plus, as much as it hurts projects that are trying to get off the ground, it's worth noting that history proves that you can save yourself money and aggravation by just waiting to buy the finished product. It also eliminates all risk and you don't even have to wait very long after backers get theirs.
Dreamwriter
Member
It doesn't eliminate all risk, it leaves the very real risk that the Kickstarter won't be successful, and in this case, the risk that even if it is successful it isn't successful enough to attract interest from the likes of Wayforward Technologies.
Personally, I've pledged for 7 Kickstarter projects (for at least a copy of the product, and more often than not a higher level for a bunch of pledge rewards), and I received my pledge rewards from all of them. In addition, I've pledged for 5 that are still going. I've not personally run into any Kickstarters that failed to deliver.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
NoFaceNico said:
Irrespective of Kickstarter's policy, they would still owe you the product in question. But KS's policy is refund or deliver; they simply provide a guideline to suggest apologizing and being transparent if you can't do either to help mitigate the risk of backers suing you or being barred from opening subsequent KSes.
It's not that "Kickstarter isn't going to go out and get your money back for you", it's that there's no money to get back. This is how the universe works. If you go and hire a painter to paint your house for you, and he paints the first little bit and then never shows up again, there's no space magnet you hold up to have your money come back to you. You call the painter, they either refund it or they don't. If they don't, you either take the loss or you sue them (is this maybe sounding "not worth it" to you?) If you do sue and win, you have a judgment entered against the person you sued. If they don't have the money, the court doesn't magically conjure up money that comes to you. Rather, you have to enforce the judgment against the painter. If the painter has money, you might be able to get it. If the painter doesn't have money, you can try to get a lien against future salary or something, but if they're broke, you're fucked. If you hired a painting company and they go under, you won't get your money back.
There's nothing new in this equation added from Kickstarter except that you're prepaying longer in advance and for more complicated, less predictable things. I do think there are some things KS can do to help mitigate failure (the most sensible one would be take a slightly higher percentage and create a refund pool to help recoup high profile failures). But there's nothing inherent to this being KS or internet-based or electronic that gives you fewer rights than you have in real life.
NoFaceNico
Member
Well, duh. If it doesn't get funded then it's not going to appear on store shelves. And we don't even know what Wayforward is looking for to prove that there's enough "interest."
I too have never pledged to a project that failed but my point is that they all carry risk, there's not really anything you can do when they fail and if you're someone like iddqd who doesn't like to get into a situation like that, then it's not for you.
dancrane212
Member
For sure - was just trying to say that, regardless of Kickstarter saying the creator is obliged to deliver a reward, iddqd's comment about not wanting to back something as risky as a console through Kickstarter was valid. That no matter how unrealistic it is to get something back for a failed project Kickstarter's policy does not really help or protect you.
ultrazilla
Gold Member
Man, can you imagine Atari Jaguar games being re-issued for the system? Aliens vs. Predator, Doom, Cannonfodder, Iron Soldier 1 and 2....