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[Nightengale]

True. However, I figure that seeing as the game was a reboot, it had to have spent plenty of time in pre-production, which isn't typically the most expensive part of development. Production itself shouldn't take as many man-hours as an open world game, provided it stays in check. MGSV almost certainly would require more man-hours. It seems probable that a typical AssCreed game costs in the region of 70~100m to develop, where short development time is determined by the sheer amount of bodies thrown into development of those games.

Maybe 100m isn't out of line, but that seems really costly and strange for SE approve. It might explain why SE was so disappointed in the sales numbers.

It is also true that ND is notably cost effective for the quality of the games that they make (and the fact that they only develop for one platform).

True, but at the same time, Crystal didn't release anything else in-between 2008-2013, and even if the bulk of the cost only started once fully in production, there is still the fixed cost of the salaries for over a hundred developers waiting for the game to fully enter production for a lengthy period. Imagine if ND didn't make Uncharted 3 while Neil/Bruce were brainstorming TLoU. It would've cost the studio money too just to keep those devs on a payroll.

I mean, Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite were basically in the same boat, in terms of games that took too effing long to make.

 

[rpg_poser]

This might be of some interest:
http://www.forbes.com/profile/kagemasa-kozuki/

"Founder and chairman of software game developer Konami is expanding his slot machine business in Las Vegas while eyeing opportunities for a casino tie-up in Japan, should a law allowing casinos pass later this year." After this sentence, games are mentioned.
Seems obvious that this is all about profit, and there is a lot of profit in gambling.
Credit goes to Duckroll, he got me thinking about this.

 

[GreyOcelot]

I assume the costs incurring was because the game missed the first deadline. Which is why they added so much surveillance to their employees.

Actually with this knowledge now it makes sense why developers release broken games. Must be cheaper to patch a game after release than delay the release.


MGSIV apparently sold 5 million, so in a market even more crowded, it will be hard enough to make back the money spent. Plus the 80 million is the known amount, the plus means it is probably more.

Alien Isolation and Tomb Raider being failures in this generation is a sign that things are not looking good for the AAA industry.

what is a failure though? not meeting sales expectations? or losing money? i highly doubt tomb raider or alien lost money. the sales expectation was x, the sales were y, therefore it is a failure. to me that's completely different from not recouping your budget.

and i think you're underestimating the importance of mgs launching on 5 platforms vs. just the ps3's 2008 install base

 

[TheSlySoul]

Seems obvious that this is all about profit, and there is a lot of profit in gambling.
Credit goes to Duckroll, he got me thinking about this.

Yeah, the costs to make a slot/pachinko machine is way lower than a video game and probably result in the same profits.
That is why the move to mobile makes more sense as well.

what is a failure though? not meeting sales expectations? or losing money? i highly doubt tomb raider or alien lost money. the sales expectation was x, the sales were y, therefore it is a failure. to me that's completely different from not recouping your budget.

Failure in the eyes of the publishers mostly. There are articles about it.

 

[GravityInsanity]

Someone should put all the games cancelled by Konami on here.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

what is a failure though? not meeting sales expectations? or losing money? i highly doubt tomb raider or alien lost money. the sales expectation was x, the sales were y, therefore it is a failure. to me that's completely different from no recouping your budget.

and i think you're underestimating the importance of mgs launching on 5 platforms vs. just the ps3's 2008 install base

Funny enough did MGS4 not sold more than MGS3 and that was on PS2 ?

 

[Ingueferroque]

So Suikoden was under development?

 

[GreyOcelot]

Failure in the eyes of the publishers mostly. There are articles about it.

right. but that's some arbitrary (to us) number that they want to hit in terms of sales. you said only COD and GTA could recoup an $80MM budget. that's not true

Funny enough did MGS4 not sold more than MGS3 and that was on PS2 ?

it probably did. i think MGS2's reception by the casual player who liked MGS1 really hurt MGS3s sales

 

[DNAbro]

Its been said again and again as of late; fuck Konami.

 

[TGO]

80 million and Keither hardly speaks? Bloody he'll.

 

[E_Darkness]

So Suikoden was under development?

Yes, was.

 

[tuxfool]

True, but at the same time, Crystal didn't release anything else in-between 2008-2013, and even if the bulk of the cost only started once fully in production, there is still the fixed cost of the salaries for over a hundred developers waiting for the game to fully enter production for a lengthy period. Imagine if ND didn't make Uncharted 3 while Neil/Bruce were brainstorming TLoU. It would've cost the studio money too just to keep those devs on a payroll.

I mean, Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite were basically in the same boat, in terms of games that took too effing long to make.

Alas, we're all being a bit hand wavy (what else can we do). It all depends on the specific staff size of the studio; if you have smaller numbers of staff on hand, you can develop for more time. CD had laid off people at the end of their previous game so it would mean a reduced staff count earlier on. Studios these days also contract out work so as not to maintain a large fixed staff size.

On the flip-side CD is based in San Francisco so it is likely that their wages and other cost are grossly inflated even when comparing to other western studios.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

80m on development alone sounds quite high, not sure how it compares to other MGS obviously but even then, isn't that like 3-4m to break even?

I'm sure it's down to expectations but I highly doubt Konami will lose money here; does explain why marketing efforts have been so low though if they want to scrounge some money.

 

[Piston Hyundai]

The best part about this is that nothing will change because Konami doesn't give a fuck about what the West thinks of anything besides Pro Evolution Soccer and Metal Gear Solid V.

 

[tuxfool]

But average salary in Poland =/= average salary of a game developer/designer working in CD Projekt Red.

The studio has quite a few non-poles on staff now. I couldn't speak to their motivations, but it seems unlikely that they would go work for a studio that paid less well compared to others (unless their particular salaries are different from others in CDPr).

 

[LordBaztion]

Woah 80 million. I suppose the lack of control over Kojima also worried the hell out of Konami at this point. I guess Silent Hills would have been just worse.

 

[GravityInsanity]

Is there anyway possible for either Microsoft or Sony to buy Konami's games like Silent Hills or the Metal Gear Solid franchise? Games that are in development HELL?

 

[SomTervo]

80 million? God damn, how many copies do they need just to break even?

1.3 million units by my count?

I imagine it'll far surpass that, personally.

Everyone needs to buy this game to prove to Konami (+ the world) that this sort of shit is worth investing in.

 

[Armaly]

So does the 10 billion yen budget include Fox Engine, Ground Zeroes, the Rising failure, and Phantom Pain or is it just for Phantom Pain alone?

 

[YuriLowell]

80 Million is not that much for a AAA game nowadays.

Wasn't the last dmc around 70 million?

 

[Turk]

Games are expensive to make.
Let's say Koji Pro has up to 200 people working on the game and engine full time over the last 5 years making an average of $50,000.

That's $10,000,000 a year just to pay for development staff.

Add on the cost of operating a studio and other non dev costs and that figure can easily get to $16,000,000 a year for a studio of 200 making a game and engine.

Over 5 years you can easily get to $80,000,000.

 

[Lady Siara]

Ugh, reading through those working conditions makes my stomach turn. Some really deplorable shit going on there, feeling for anyone stuck in that madhouse.

I would be shocked if MGSV doesn't turn a profit. If MGS4 can sell 5 million on just the PS3, V should have no problem selling gangbusters considering it's on everything except mobile and Nintendo consoles. There's no way it isn't going to make its money back.

With Konami's current line of thinking though, it's not really about profit. They seem more interested in maximizing profits through minimalizing dev time, costs, and risk. MGSV seems like their last hurrah in the AAA space.

Edit: All of those comments about Iga being locked in a dungeon seem pretty accurate now.

 

[TheSlySoul]

80 Million is not that much for a AAA game nowadays.

Wasn't the last dmc around 70 million?

Yeah, but it barely made back it's budget selling at 1.8 million.
People don't realize 2 million sold is much harder this gen because the market is oversaturated. The games consistently over 5 million sold have been EA or Activision titles.

Street Fighter V couldn't get full funded from Capcom alone, it is an issue. Probably Rise of Tomb Raider the timed exclusive money paid for most of the development.

 

[Nose Master]

Regulating punches for lunch breaks isn't really that bad?

 

[tilomite!]

I see all the turmoil and it's hard to believe that a great game will come out of it. Guess we'll find out in 28 days.

 

[TheSlySoul]

I see all the turmoil and it's hard to believe that a great game will come out of it. Guess we'll find out in 28 days.

The game will probably be good, but the hate for Konami will definitely factor into sales. I don't see it getting more than 1.5 million (in the launch window) personally.

 

[Screaming Meat]

The game will probably be good, but the hate for Konami will definitely factor into sales. I don't see it getting more than 1.5 million personally.

I'd be very surprised if it hit that low.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Is there anyway possible for either Microsoft or Sony to buy Konami's games like Silent Hills or the Metal Gear Solid franchise? Games that are in development HELL?

Those games aren't in development Hell, they're not in development at all.

The cost of buying these franchises would be more than they could probably make back. But that's a moot point considering they're not for sale.

 

[GreyOcelot]

The game will probably be good, but the hate for Konami will definitely factor into sales. I don't see it getting more than 1.5 million personally.

hahahahaha. thanks, i needed a good laugh

 

[Salaadin]

The game will probably be good, but the hate for Konami will definitely factor into sales. I don't see it getting more than 1.5 million personally.

The hate for konami has potential to cut sales but it being the very last Kojima mgs has potential to increase sales. I guess we'll see what is more important to people

 

[Trojan]

This unfortunately could hurt Kojima in finding his next role and the scope of the project. He is going to get a ton of questions on that alleged $80M budget and it might scare off some potential suitors.

Sounds like he just needs a project manager to help him out with this kind of stuff.

 

[Panajev2001a]

¥10B in development cost for a Metal Gear game seems like a lot, even in the context of the idea that modern game budgets are large. This is not Call of Duty. It is not Grand Theft Auto.

¥10B in capital into one title is a lot for Konami, especially when next best projects likely have higher potential returns.

Also, as already noted, "brand new engine" is inconsequential, particularly given the likelihood that it will never be used again.

Considering it has been used in PES and it was going to be used in P.T. and perhaps an eventual ZoE 3 as well as this year and likely next year's PES too, I do not think that brushing the high performance Multiplatform engine aside is fair. Back when Fox Engine was approved and its development started its usefulness was not as much in question as you are putting it either.

 

[GravityInsanity]

Those games aren't in development Hell, they're not in development at all.

The cost of buying these franchises would be more than they could probably make back. But that's a moot point considering they're not for sale.

Wasn't Silent Hills already in development with the release of PT? Then, it got cancelled because of reasons!

 

[ShockingAlberto]

80 Million is not that much for a AAA game nowadays.

Wasn't the last dmc around 70 million?

80 million is a lot pre-marketing.

Post-marketing, not so much.

Without context for which this number is, it could either be surprisingly low or absolutely unreasonable.

 

[TheSlySoul]

The hate for konami has potential to cut sales but it being the very last Kojima mgs has potential to increase sales. I guess we'll see what is more important to people

Yeah, we shall see.
Honestly all the stuff I seen puts it on a bargain bin sale for me personally like Arkham Knight, but I want it to be good despite the troubled development.

I mean the horse stuff cannot be as bad as Batmobile, right?

80 million is a lot pre-marketing.

Post-marketing, not so much.

Without context for which this number is, it could either be surprisingly low or absolutely unreasonable.

Indeed. Watch Dogs budget is an interesting read.

I think you are overestimating the amount of consumers who a) know about the whole Konami controversy at all, and b) the people in that group who will actually boycot the game because of that.

I think people are overestimating how much people still care about MGS as a franchise. Most of the casual MGS fans have moved on.

 

[Defuser]

With all the shit going on in Konami,I'm even surprised theres a fitness club in there.

 

[VulpX]

The game will probably be good, but the hate for Konami will definitely factor into sales. I don't see it getting more than 1.5 million personally.

I think you are overestimating the amount of consumers who a) know about the whole Konami controversy at all, and b) the people in that group who will actually boycot the game because of that.

 

[rjc571]

1.3 million units by my count?

I imagine it'll far surpass that, personally.

Everyone needs to buy this game to prove to Konami (+ the world) that this sort of shit is worth investing in.

You realize they don't make $60 on each copy sold right

 

[GravityInsanity]

The game will probably be good, but the hate for Konami will definitely factor into sales. I don't see it getting more than 1.5 million personally.

People can send death threats at Konami, but make no mistake, MGS 5 will sell. They'll most likely sell 1 million in the first week!

 

[Stuart444]

These working conditions sound like the perfect recipe to get people to leave the company or at least shop around for positions at other companies with better working conditions.

 

[packy34]

The game will probably be good, but the hate for Konami will definitely factor into sales. I don't see it getting more than 1.5 million personally.

Uh MGS2 sold 7 million on PS2 alone and that was in 2001 when the PS2 had been out for a shorter period than the current gen consoles.

 

[cripterion]

Why is 80M outrageous amount for some people here? The game will sell like crazy, special editions, mutiplat, etc...

Shit I wanna know how much they made with Ground Zeroes only.

 

[Screaming Meat]

The hate for konami has potential to cut sales but it being the very last Kojima mgs has potential to increase sales. I guess we'll see what is more important to people

Honestly, I don't think the majority of gamers would even know about either of those situations.

Why is 80M outrageous amount for some people here? The game will sell like crazy, special editions, mutiplat, etc... .

I imagine a lot of those things were set-up partially because they spent so much on the game. You can be damn sure that's why they've included microtransactions.

 

[Interceptor]

With all the shit going on in Konami,I'm even surprised theres a fitness club in there.

Konami has several fitness clubs. They are send to them, not the one in house.. if there even is one.

 

[Yen]

It doesn't look like Konami are going to spend any money on marketing the game, so at least that's one thing they're going to save money on.

 

[The Albatross]

Anybody posted the Forbes write up about this? Searched but couldn't find it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...alleges-cruel-and-unusual-employee-practices/

But things take a turn for the weird when Nikkei dives into the day-to-day reasons why employee morale is supposedly at rock bottom within the company.

Konami reportedly monitors the movements of employees with cameras placed everywhere, with particular interest given to how long they break for lunch using time cards. Those that take too long are publicly shamed within the company.

The only Konami employees that have their own email addresses are from PR and sales. Everyone else has to make to do with randomized email addresses that change every few months.

Finally, Konami has no patience for employees they deem “useless,” shuffling their responsibilities around not only to other jobs within their division, but sometimes moving them out of game development entirely and into working at their pachi-slot factories, turning them into security guards, or even making them janitors at their fitness facilities. One of the most incredible instances of this involves an employee posting to Facebook he was leaving the company, and other workers who “liked” the status found themselves reassigned to one of these “punishment” jobs. Reportedly, this affects both junior employees and senior staff.

Sounds really fucked up

 

[Stuart444]

Uh MGS2 sold 7 million on PS2 alone and that was in 2001 when the PS2 had been out for a shorter period than the current gen consoles.

Tbf, that was back before the internet was as wide spread as it is now. Social media + Word of Mouth could factor into things quite a bit.

Of course many (note: I didn't say all before anyone jumps on me for that >_> ) gamers buy games even if they say they won't so I'm sure it won't hurt things that much.

 

[gossi]

Why is 80M outrageous amount for some people here? The game will sell like crazy, special editions, mutiplat, etc...

Shit I wanna know how much they made with Ground Zeroes only.

"During the first week of release in Japan, the PlayStation 3 version of the game sold 119,615 physical retail copies, ranking third place amongst all Japanese software sales within that week, whilst the PlayStation 4 version sold 91,903 physical retail copies.[70] On 25 April 2014, Konami announced that the game shipped one million copies worldwide.[71] The PlayStation 4 version has sold three times more than the Xbox One version.[72]"

They probably made around ~$40m from Ground Zeroes, assuming the number pushed to 1.5m copies by now. Development and marketing costs come off that number.

 

[GreyOcelot]

Honestly, I don't think the majority of gamers would even know about either of those situations.

exactly. as long as it reviews well, it will sell a shit-ton of copies. people are also underestimating the open world factor. the game will be huge with the streaming and highlight video crowd

 

[gundamkyoukai]

The game will probably be good, but the hate for Konami will definitely factor into sales. I don't see it getting more than 1.5 million personally.

Your joking right ?

"During the first week of release in Japan, the PlayStation 3 version of the game sold 119,615 physical retail copies, ranking third place amongst all Japanese software sales within that week, whilst the PlayStation 4 version sold 91,903 physical retail copies.[70] On 25 April 2014, Konami announced that the game shipped one million copies worldwide.[71] The PlayStation 4 version has sold three times more than the Xbox One version.[72]"

They probably made around ~$40m from Ground Zeroes, assuming the number pushed to 1.5m copies by now. Development and marketing costs come off that number.

They don't get that much money per copy to get 40 million from a $30 demo .