You're the end consumer, it's not your job to consider the well-being of those who made the game. Also, it's not really lose/lose like someone suggested before (at least not in my opinion). If MGSV sells below Konami's expectation which feeds into their belief that console gaming is obsolete, I certainly won't miss them if they go exclusively mobile/pachislot.
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New Nikkei articles shares some information about the situation at Konami
- Thread starter Blablurn
- Start date
You're the end consumer, it's not your job to consider the well-being of those who made the game. Also, it's not really lose/lose like someone suggested before (at least not in my opinion). If MGSV sells below Konami's expectation which feeds into their belief that console gaming is obsolete, I certainly won't miss them if they go exclusively mobile/pachislot.
Those salaries have already been paid.
Led_Zeppelin
Member
Is not like it is hard for Konami to make back 80M on MGSV. I mean assuming Konami gets $30 for each sale of MGS V they would only need 3M to break even. Guns of the Patriots sold that in less than a month WW and it was a PS3 exclusive.
metareferential
Member
Bottom line is: don't buy MGS5 until it hits bargain-bin prices?
Palette Swap
Member
That's the underlying question. These despicable practices sound completely outlandish for a large tech company. I do wonder what kind of legal/cultural context can enable that kind of vile bullshit.
I don't mean to sound culturally insensitive when I write this, I'm 100% ignorant of Japanese labour laws and it might just as well be an isolated case of a company deciding to do this and get away with it, regardless of any kind of national context.
Someone mentioned earlier that these functional demotions are an adverse effect of labour laws that make it harder to lay someone off, I don't know how accurate that is though.
Bottom line is: Do whatever you want. It doesn't matter to anybody but yourself.
James Scott
Banned
That 80 million was from a few months ago and likely not including marketing. It'll probably break even quickly, though
But you gotta think about it. How much does Ubisoft change the formula of their games? Or even the engine. AC, Far Cry are yearly franchises with little deviation expect in regards to the story, setting and minor gameplay changes.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Konami isn't going to have any problems making back the budget, especially with it being on three platforms and many likely going the DD route... Are they even putting much towards marketing?
Can we also get a Kickstarter going to buy the rights to Suikoden from them?
Can we also get a Kickstarter going to buy the rights to Suikoden from them?
Led_Zeppelin
Member
To be honest after reading this information I don't even care if Konami breaks even or not, they can burn in hell for all I care now. What we need is someone to do a "Final Hours of Metal Gear Solid V" and extend on all this garbage also a lot of this was known thanks to that video Super Bonny Hop did about Kojima "leaving" Konami that was take down by Konami PR and then after they couldn't hold the take down was put up again, I guess this just confirms this is something more than just a rumor or a series of unrelated events at Konami.
DustyVonEric
Member
Everyone can handle it differently, but this sounds callous as fuck.
If you really want to send Konami a message though, I'd say hit them in their wallet. Buy used or bargain bin prices. Buying full price helps them ignore the issues, because they're going to make their money anyways and people would have shown not to care about their treatment of employees. As long as they get a good game.
That 80 million really isn't that insane of a number. This Kotaku article has a break down of a number of games. It's about on par with GTA IV's costs. AAA games are expensive as fuck and only getting more expensive, especially as more titles go open world.
In this particular situation it doesn't matter. Konami doesn't care about their gaming future. If this isn't a success, they'll shrug and write it off as a loss and will stay on their current path to mobile and pachinko nirvana. If this is a success, they'll shrug and content themselves with profits and stay on their current path to mobile and pachinko nirvana.
In other words Konami doesn't give a shit either way.
I wonder more if the workers have this obligation to put up with it, in terms of expectations as an employee in Japan (Or anywhere). Like raising a complaint would be a selfish act.
I don't think you read all the tweets.
Konami's workplace sounds like something out of a cyberpunk movie. In the "we own you" sense, not the "awesome future tech" sense.
Kind of glad that I was never a huge Konami fan. The way that they're abandoning their legacy isn't unexpected at this point, but it's pretty tragic.
Kind of glad that I was never a huge Konami fan. The way that they're abandoning their legacy isn't unexpected at this point, but it's pretty tragic.
Screaming Meat:
I'm a project manager myself so this is what I do every dayMaybe I should email Kojima and offer my services.
I, too, am a project manager! Who also edits stuff. And only managing low-level stuff, really.
Now lets perform the secret project manager's handshake
Like... a dystopia?
Like... 1984?
Synless
Member
This doesn't account for the money gained back though Ground Zeroes though. That easily gave back a chunk of that development budget.
Probably not a significant amount considering how cheap Ground Zeroes was.
Last Hearth
Member
FYI, the marketing budgeting for a AAA is typically larger than the development budget. No CEO is going to invest $50-$100 million in a game and then have it flop because it he didn't invest enough in marketing the product.
And I most certainly did when Igarashi went out on his own.
Despite my bitterness for what happened with Castlevania I'd fund Kojima if he went that route but knowing the type of budgets he works with and his notoriety he'd prolly be better off and able to get funding on his own.
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
jesus christ, the way they treat their employees sounds like something you'll see on cartoons
If MGSV is going to sell well, they better get that marketing hype going. I see more trailers and ads for Mad Max (which launches on the same day) than I do MGSV. =x This year is stacked with big fucking hitters at the retail level. MGSV could lose its legs pretty easily.
zephyrsquall
Member
Part of me is skeptical about 80 million being spent on just the development of the game. Could marketing make up the bulk of this?
NHarmonic.
Member
I'm horrified at how this company treats it's employees, really wtf?
This is where I disagree. Not buying the game AT ALL would send the strongest message even if no one is satisfied with the outcome.
Led_Zeppelin
Member
Nah buying used hurts more the publisher than not buying it. Because you get to play the game you want and the publisher gets nothing of the money. At this point I would rather support Gamestop than Konami.
Nah, I'm still getting it day 1. That said, I got it for like $42. But I would have paid full price. It's a Kojima made Metal Gear game. Screw Konami and all that, but I want to play the game.
And I don't know the man but I'd want people to play the product I spent years creating regardless of what the company did to me in the end.
How do they work then. Because if that's not how profits work then they wouldn't have pushed to have GZs made in the first place. I said 10 dollars to cover expenses of everything GZ specific, or do you believe that all the Gran Turismo prologues that sold millions didn't help to recoup/cover the on going development of the full release Gran Turismo games. I'm not sure where you're coming from with this. I have a background in business, so by all means.
DrunkandDrunker
Member
Not a legal professional but I'll try to add some context.
In Japan, it is hard to dismiss a worker.
Supreme Court decision on Kouchi Housou case (1977) might provide context.
A radio announcer over slept two times in two weeks, resulting in missing a 10 minute 6AM news segment, once completely, the second time partially.
The radio station dismissed (fired) the announcer.
The Supreme Court ruled that the dismissal was invalid, because dismissal of the worker was too harsh and would not receive general social approval.
I'm not going to go into the detailed reasoning behind the decision but, put simply, dismissal of a worker is only allowed as a last resort. Even if the company is in financial difficulty or the employee has made a huge mistake that resulted in losses to the company, unless the company can prove that firing that worker was the last resort: that despite the companies best effort to provide education/training good work environment etc, that dismissing the worker was necessary (i.e. socially deemed acceptable), the dismissal might be ruled invalid.
Basically the employers are expected to educate and nurture their worker. Unless a worker is explicitly hired for a specific skill, the worker is expected to conform to company needs and the company is expected to train and educate the worker so they can perform the needed task. So when the company hits hard times or if an employee's skill sets becomes unwanted, the company is expected to reassign you within the company even if the said work is unrelated to the employee's skill set.
However, if such reassignments are done with the intent of coercing them to quit "of their own will," it's abuse of employer authority and is illegal. There are many cases of such lawsuits and I believe there is a lawsuit pending involving a current Konami employee who previously worked as a game designer. An update in 2014 indicated that Konami assigned him to be a play tester along side part-time workers. As far as I know, Sony has also been implicated in such illegal abuse as well. Some times these things happen because of personal reasons, sometimes it happens because of financial reasons.
At the end of the day, companies and workplaces involve people interacting with each other. And there's always both sides to the story. ALWAYS.
If the alleged reassignments happened with the intent to have people quit, sue the company, it's illegal in Japan.
I really can't find Japanese dismissal law issues written in English except for this one
http://www.mfj.gr.jp/web/lunch_seminar/documents/2008-01_Kanbayashi_doc.pdf
Liquidsnake
Banned
I worked for a Japanese company, for 5 years. I believe every word.
Janitors don't get bonuses based on software sales.
The Horror the horror
Banned
I get to experience the genius and hard work of Kojima and his team without Konami benefiting from it. Sounds like a win/win to me.
a secret-boss
Banned
80 millions
GAF Koji supporters said they ready to back Kojima if he runs kicks starter and asked for millions
GAF Koji supporters said they ready to back Kojima if he runs kicks starter and asked for millions
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
To be honest, it's a full fledged Metal Gear Solid multi-platform title that will be Kojima's last, it shouldn't be hard to market, but it's Konami and they suck so they wasted that good marketing bit already with the fallout.
♫ Making games sure is hard,
when you're now a Konami security guard! ♫
(original song from Arthur)
when you're now a Konami security guard! ♫
(original song from Arthur)
russian box
Member
oh the little people know about the games industry! its also the same in film/tv/fvx
its lovely behind closed doors!
its lovely behind closed doors!
Oof. Still, I feel like konami is more than its executives, so not buying it when people poured blood and sweat into making something I'd enjoy would feel extra weird.
Konami is dead, I am surprised that everyone has not left by now.
Can I send you both a PM regarding Project management ? I really need to know about the carrer of a Project manager.
I'm a project manager myself so this is what I do every day
Can I send you both a PM regarding Project management ? I really need to know about the carrer of a Project manager.
That's a bad kitty-konami. bad bad game company.
Muffin Awesome
Member
Does the 80million include Metal Gear Online? Or is this a silly question?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Is $80 Million bad for the last Kojima Metal Gear game ever? Sounds reasonable to me.