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Women as Reward - Tropes vs Women in Video Games
- Thread starter ElNarez
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I guess so, but really, I'm seeing people complain about some downloadable costumes for female characters in SFV while at the same time they're going "AW YEAH, look at Ryu's exposed chest and awesome abs, COOL!"
We need to acknowledge the entirety of the problem.
Ha ha! Straight male entitlement in action.
HawksWinStanley
Member
Didn't know about the MGS4 Playboy traps. Pretty funny stuff.
I wish someone made similar videos concerning how men are portrayed across different forms of media.
Cool masculine dudebro still seems to be the norm and no sign of any change whatsoever.
You could do that, but i'm pretty sure it would fall on deaf ears because it's such the norm and men don't really mind it. Remember, most of those sexy dudebros in games aren't placed their for women, they're placed there because they are considered the ideal physique for men. Chris isn't punching boulders because it makes the women swoon and his sailor outfit is not exactly made to make the female players all asunder.
I think there's a greater conversation to be had in the role of sex and it's place in video games, because then you start comparing male and female outfits, their designs, their purpose, and how it actually affects the player base. But that also involves diving into a whole lot of otome games and, let's face it, most male game players aren't about that life.
"BEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD!!!!"
That's one that actually has been circulating around social media as being the thing that guys can sexually appreciate while not coming off as gay as of late.
She covers this in the video. Just showing skin is not the same as sexualisation. Ryu in traditional fighting gear that happens to expose flesh is not the same as a female character in a bunny girl outfit for example.
Wow, I wasn't even aware of that existing. Sounds like a great pull.
More than perhaps any of the previous videos in the series, this one had me rolling my eyes at example after example of embarrassingly juvenile portrayals of women in games - some of which I knew about and had forgotten (Lollipop Chainsaw...) and some which I didn't (the Ratchet & Clank one was simply bizarre).
At the same time, I don't think she manages to really justify the logical jump between these myriad examples and the idea that video games have some grand, subliminal psychological effect, reinforcing male entitlement. This is surely no different to the idea that violent video games cause violence, which I simply don't believe is true. Video games would be better without these tropes - they almost always degrade the game they are a part of - and gaming as an entertainment medium would be more accessible to wider demographics if the tropes were to go. Yet, when she starts talking about a spurious causal link between these games and male entitlement, I go from being disappointed in the various developers that included such blatant childish sexism, to being dismayed by what she herself is saying.
At the same time, I don't think she manages to really justify the logical jump between these myriad examples and the idea that video games have some grand, subliminal psychological effect, reinforcing male entitlement. This is surely no different to the idea that violent video games cause violence, which I simply don't believe is true. Video games would be better without these tropes - they almost always degrade the game they are a part of - and gaming as an entertainment medium would be more accessible to wider demographics if the tropes were to go. Yet, when she starts talking about a spurious causal link between these games and male entitlement, I go from being disappointed in the various developers that included such blatant childish sexism, to being dismayed by what she herself is saying.
Yup. One is sexualization, one is transposition.
Now, that's not to say that the bunny outfit can't be transposition, I know plenty of girls who wear things of that ilk who would love to look more like a Juliet or a Lulu or a Lightning. But i'd say the percentage of women who are actually thinking as such are a dramatically small portion of the female gaming community. I don't know too many people who look up to Ciri or Yennifer because they have a rockin' pair of tits. They're generally liked because they are interesting, deep characters.
Bolivar687
Banned
Looking forward to watching when I get home, curious as to how much of the Metal Gear stuff they caught. Watching the currently ongoing OHN marathon and I didn't know how far some of the B&B stuff actually goes.
Wowfunhappy
Member
So happy to be able to come into this thread and not see a bunch of people screaming that Anita is the devil. It's refreshing.
Eh, I dunno, there is a link there. And the link is far larger than just video games. It's a deeper indoctrination that a lot of young people, male or female, have to deal with. We've only just recently gotten away from advertising for girls that says, "The video games you want to play are bad makeup/fashion design games, because you are girls, and other video games are not for you." The idea of sex as a reward for being nice or doing a thing is so commonplace in our society that we joke about it flippantly because everyone knows it's true, even if they don't want to admit it.
That's more or less where I'm at as well. Compared to the more abstract tropes she's brought up in the past, or cases where I think she's had very poor evidence for some claims, this one's pretty baldly obvious when it shows up. I don't think there was any example she brought up this time I disagreed with.
The good arguments against tropes are ones of considering audiences and crafting unique experiences. I would have thought after the decades of "Mortal Kombat is a murder simulator" we would have realized that it's all a moral panic.
Lol at shirtless Ryu being sexualized. Attractive looking characters =/= sexualized characters. If you want a Capcom example, I'd say sailor Chris would indeed be a much better example - not Ryu who is still wearing more clothes than, say, a MMA fighter. And as has been mentioned - males have been wanting a bearded Ryu for ages now.
Do you seriously believe that a ripped, shirtless dude is anywhere near equivalent to having female characters in ridiculously fetishistic costumes?
doesn't really cover that much, just the meryl without her trousers scene and playboy mags. i'd love it if she hitr the B&B's head on, outright embarrassing to play in front of people due to its sexualised nature and absurdity.
and saying that ripped male character dudebro trope is in the same ballpark as this is ridiculous. yes its dull,unimagineative and a problem for other reasons, but for the most part, it's a positive trope, it's not degrading like many of these female examples
Cymbal Head
Banned
I loled at "Just so we're clear on what's happening here: players are receiving a literal trophy for achieving sex with a woman."
The thing about Sailor Chris is, even if you consider that to be a sexy outfit, it's still a sexy outfit that is traditionally not for women. That's sort of the crazy thing about it all. Rather than finding out what women would consider sexy and attractive, they continue to double down on what guys think is sexy, even in the case of other men. It's kind of crazy to think about, but then, this is the same company who gave us Zebra Sheeva and said with a straight face "this isn't racist".
As far as SF is concerned, considering they're going so hard into the paint with DLC, I can only hope that for one of the packs, they consult a fashion designer that exists outside of game/fantasy design to make a set of attractive clothing for all of the characters. Not everything has to be ultra sexy, not everything has to be super silly. Hell, in skullgirls, the win pose I like the best for Eliza is her in the business suit.
SliceSabre
Banned
...you're serious?
Sorry but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend Ryu being without his shirt on showing off his ripped chest with a full beard isn't going to appeal to a certain demographic in a sexual nature.
While I agree wholeheartedly with her critique of the Resident Evil DLC costumes for female characters, she says that the male ones are all power fantasies rather than beachwear: what about Chris's sailor outfit
Still, a pretty good episode all in all, worth a watch.
The ultimate power fantasy every boy dreams of.
Male empowerment fantasy =/= Sexual objectification of women.
Yeah but even then, what's the percentage of the gaming community who are going to look at shirtless bearded ryu and find it sexual attractive? That's not why Capcom made that design.
It's like, consider Voldo. He is, in his backstory, a mentally deprived sexual freak. But his design doesn't scream "I'm so sexy", it screams "I'm a weird sexual deviant". Just because things of a sexual nature are present in the design doesn't mean that it's meant to be sexually alluring.
Not always anyway.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Pretty obvious video but these aren't for people like me. Good video.
Some boys.The ultimate power fantasy every boy dreams of.
chaobreaker
Member
Holy shit Anita went in on the gamers mad at gay characters in Bioware RPGs or the desexualized costumes in Bravely Default.
Brilliantly done video. Probably the best in the series at this moment.
Umm... Capcom only recently started giving male RE characters sexualized costumes, and even then they still had more non-sexualized costumes thrown their way.
Brilliantly done video. Probably the best in the series at this moment.
While I agree wholeheartedly with her critique of the Resident Evil DLC costumes for female characters, she says that the male ones are all power fantasies rather than beachwear: what about Chris's sailor outfit
Still, a pretty good episode all in all, worth a watch.
Umm... Capcom only recently started giving male RE characters sexualized costumes, and even then they still had more non-sexualized costumes thrown their way.
JordanN
Banned
partyphone
Banned
you mean every demographic?
but I don't know what ryu has to do with sexism in video games.
Apparently a shirtless guy is totally equivalent to Cammy prancing around in a thong.
Pretty obvious video but these aren't for people like me. Good video.
Some boys.
I like the Beginning so far, but with justin Bailey you don't play in Samus Underwear. Anita showed at the beginning, that Samus underwear is a pantie and a bra. With the BW code you play in something that is like those suits gymnastic athletes are wearing.
But overall the beginning is much better than in her previous videos.
But overall the beginning is much better than in her previous videos.
Anton Sugar
Member
Yeah, it feels more like they use those "sexy" men outfits as get-out-of-jail-free cards to design women's clothing any way they want.
Recently, Life is Strange, as mentioned by Mesoian. But to add off the top of my head, Last of Us, Dreamfall, Mirror's edge, The borderland games. None of the characters where in anyway sexualized for the benefit of the player in those games. So no, I wouldn't even call Witcher 3, one of the better games in that regard, they're on the right path, but CD Project have a long way to go.
I would've added Heavenly Sword to that list due to Kai and the -character- of Nariko, if not for Nariko being hypersexualized in appearance.
chaobreaker
Member
Being needlessly pedantic here? She acknowledges that it's a leotard get up but its still the clothing she wears under her power suit, hence why she called it Samus's underwear.
meltingparappa
Member
I wouldn't presume they'd put that much effort into a pre-emptive apology to media critics from a different culture.
The problem here is that these terms are largely being used as projections from our part and derived from our own values. Unless the intent is explicitly stated by the author, we can at best make an educated guess about it based on our own values. It's not exactly unheard of either that one female character that is largely considered to be sexually objectified (speaking strictly in term of character design here and not plot purpose) can be viewed as empowerment fantasy to others. This stuff seems to get even more diluted when it comes to male characters.
partyphone
Banned
hmm. weird that it's not. it's almost like we have systemized sexism against women.
almost.
Honestly, if more protagonists had dimensions like Raiden rather than dimensions like marcus Fenix, the male sexualization argument would probably be more valid.
Hell, even when it was time to stop making Raiden a joke and turn him into a bad ass, they beefed up his physique with all sorts of crazy muscle looking but not muscle tech.
I didn't really like the Beauty and Beast corps in MGS4 - good to see this being mentioned. They're skin suit part was pointless since it was the same seductive dance and creepy walk for each of them. I wish they at least had more character. For me this is the worst one. Meryl's ass and the posters of models didn't bother me but B&B took things too far, imo.
I was making fun of his "some boys" comment with his Raiden avatar. There is actually an entire character in MGS3 who makes fun of the reception of Raiden by western gamers.
I was making fun of his "some boys" comment with his Raiden avatar. There is actually an entire character in MGS3 who makes fun of the reception of Raiden by western gamers.
obin_gam
Member
Working with teenagers I have seen several (albeit anecdotal) evidence of there being direct links between the behavior towards women and what games are played. It's really sad that there hasn't been any kind of development in game design about this issue, since games are so important to a lot of peoples lives, and especially kids who are very easily manipulated and molded by things they see on screen.
agiantenemycrab
Member
Yet another excellent video. I sincerely hope developers are watching these and considering her comments carefully.
I still like Wayforward's games though
Honestly that kind of overt cheese cake is sort of rare in western games. Western cheese cake tends to be more overt and "a friend of mine told me this story about the woman he met in a bar and it totally worked and our own stories of romance or coitus aren't that exciting so let's use it!". And then they copy fashions ripped from an EDM music video.
topgeareasy
Banned
why do people give her the time of day is beyond me
The B&B thing was always stupid. They are the lamest boss set in all of the metal gear games.
And yeah, I get that. But still, you put in a character who would actually be considered attractive by a normal average woman in your game and he gets, quite literally in this case, laughed off the stage by the traditional gaming community. ::Shrugs::
Clearly you care enough to pay attention
I know, that's why I said I wholeheartedly agreed with her point. However, seeing as she mentioned Claire's outfit in the most recent RE game (Revelations 2), and then went on to say that the men never get beachwear, Chris's DLC outfit in the previous game sprang to mind. I'm aware it's in no way an equal depiction and that in the vast majority of cases the guys get cool, practical outfits over sexy, revealing ones, I'm just nitpicking over one tiny point amongst the broader argument she's making that I agree with.
Personally I think all the characters, both male and female, look much more attractive in their regular gear, with smart and practical shirts and jackets over 'sexy' costumes. I've never really understood why the developers feel the need to devalue a great cast of both female and male characters they've depicted for nearly twenty years as being cool, capable, special ops/bioterrorism/zombie killing professionals with all that 'sexy nurse' rubbish. It's just incredibly juvenile and tacky.
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