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[GifGafIsTheBestGaf]

this is kinda old news but i wonder if xbox4k is gonna use this or NX

Samsung Starts Mass Producing Industry’s First 10-Nanometer Class DRAM

The new DRAM supports a data transfer rate of 3,200 megabits per second (Mbps), which is more than 30 percent faster than the 2,400Mbps rate of 20nm DDR4 DRAM. Also, new modules produced from the 10nm-class DRAM chips consume 10 to 20 percent less power, compared to their 20nm-process-based equivalents, which will improve the design efficiency of next-generation, high-performance computing (HPC) systems and other large enterprise networks, as well as being used for the PC and mainstream server markets.

 

[Raist]

Next, we're going to discuss the technical differences between Full/Limited RGB and Black Levels High/Low and how they're not the same thing.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Omg...stop

Wait until he finds out about Apple's inventions like the Retina display and Force Touch.

 

[exmachina64]

Zen + GDDR5X or bust. We can wait Sony, do it properly.

We're not getting either of those, so I'd temper your expectations.

 

[Dubz]

This and the X 1.5 has moved me to PC gaming. Bye bye PS Plus and Xbox Live. Hello free online mp!

 

[StrongBlackVine]

This and the X 1.5 has moved me to PC gaming. Bye bye PS Plus and Xbox Live. Hello free online mp!

Bye...

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I bet CD Projekt Red won't mind...

 

[orochi91]

This and the X 1.5 has moved me to PC gaming. Bye bye PS Plus and Xbox Live. Hello free online mp!

Adios~~~

 

[exmachina64]

This and the X 1.5 has moved me to PC gaming. Bye bye PS Plus and Xbox Live. Hello free online mp!

What aspects of PC gaming appeal to you besides the lack of incremental console updates?

 

[deadlast]

A shame Sony couldn't rig up some sort of "Expansion Pak" setup where everyone could upgrade.

This. It would be best for everyone. The could have called it the 4Kx

 

[boredandlazy]

What aspects of PC gaming appeal to you besides the lack of incremental console updates?

Probably the free multiplayer. Although that seem to be a benefit rather than a reason for the alleged move.

 

[onQ123]

No one find it strange that the insiders have been silenced?

Also no one find it strange that Sony is talking to the retailers so soon? or that they would know the size of a console this far ahead of time?


As far as I can remember when we got leaks about the slims & new DSs/ 3DSs it was right before they released them.

 

[fastmower]

No one find it strange that the insiders have been silenced?

Also no one find it strange that Sony is talking to the retailers so soon? or that they would know the size of a console this far ahead of time?


As far as I can remember when we got leaks about the slims & new DSs/ 3DSs it was right before they released them.

Maybe they are fake rumors to identity leakers!

*puts on tinfoil hat

 

[onQ123]

Maybe they are fake rumors to identity leakers!

*puts on tinfoil hat

I don't think they care about who is leaking information enough to make up stuff just to single them out.

I think they gave retailers loose information that didn't pin point the release date & price yet.

 

[Dubz]

What aspects of PC gaming appeal to you besides the lack of incremental console updates?

Backwards compatibility, Steam sales, no online paywalls, and that's about it.

EDIT: I'll keep my PS4 for exclusives, but that's probably all I will play on it.

 

[exmachina64]

Backwards compatibility, Steam sales, no online paywalls, and that's about it.

EDIT: I'll keep my PS4 for exclusives, but that's probably all I will play on it.

If you follow through with this, be sure to visit us here!

 

[Inuhanyou]

I'm guessing 4k is the new thing, but its a fair point to make that pushing 4k for this unit is strange considering that games are def not going to be 4k a majority of the time if at all, even for direct up ports from PS4...i expect 1440p at the very most in regards to that kind of resolution increase, and maybe a performance upgrade if we're talking about a CPU upgrade as well

 

[Liabe Brave]

You're simply arguing semantics..it's an advanced method taking an image, and creating a higher resolution version of the same image...

Upscaling is taking one image and creating a higher resolution version of the same image...

Up-rendering is Sony patented method of doing so.

Look, uprendering is the Sony upscaler.

I don't think any of this is true. Yes, the original image posted shows an upscaling process. But if you actually read the patent, that's just a part of it. The important thing appears to be when that step is applied.

Unlike traditional upscaling, they're not (always) taking the final frame buffer and blowing it up. Instead they could be intercepting an initial or intermediate render target and upscaling that, then finishing the rendering process with further passes on this scaled target.

This is not exactly like upscaling, because the blowup isn't happening to the final frame. It's more similar to native rendering at a higher resolution, since there's a buffer at high res having effects applied. But it's not exactly that either, because the source of that high-res buffer is an upscale of a low-res buffer.

So it's a combination of upscaling and native rendering...hence "uprendering". It's not an elegant name, but neither does it seem meaningless like some folks believe.

 

[onQ123]

I don't think any of this is true. Yes, the original image posted shows an upscaling process. But if you actually read the patent, that's just a part of it. The important thing appears to be when that step is applied.

Unlike traditional upscaling, they're not (always) taking the final frame buffer and blowing it up. Instead they could be intercepting an initial or intermediate render target and upscaling that, then finishing the rendering process with further passes on this scaled target.

This is not exactly like upscaling, because the blowup isn't happening to the final frame. It's more similar to native rendering at a higher resolution, since there's a buffer at high res having effects applied. But it's not exactly that either, because the source of that high-res buffer is an upscale of a low-res buffer.

So it's a combination of upscaling and native rendering...hence "uprendering". It's not an elegant name, but neither does it seem meaningless like some folks believe.

You realize that things have been explained to them clear as day & they revert right back to acting as if I'm just making up words? this is a lost cause all the information is right there in their face. next year or so they will be acting like they are experts on the subject.

The post from a few pages back still apply.

Funny that this PS4K goes against most of what people thought would happen yet they try to use their old way of thinking to define what it could be?


I talked about how GPGPU rendering could give us games that look better than we thought was possible this generation & people thought I was crazy but now we have Dreams


I talked about 4K gaming support in this generation of consoles & people shut it down but now look we have PS4K coming soon.


I asked if people would upgrade to a PS3.5 or Xbox 360 plus & people thought it would never fly but here we are PS4.5 has wings.

So I have learned that when most of Gaf disagree with my thoughts it's nothing to worry about because people tend to follow the 1st response & things could go either way around here.

Until we have real answers it's all speculations so I'll stick to my thoughts until I have proof that says otherwise.

 

[thuway]

Why do we believe that 4K is going to be some native resolution going forward? If anything the only thing I can see is some sort hardware/software built in API that makes temporal reprojection//eccentric forms of AA approximate 4K.

 

[onQ123]

Why do we believe that 4K is going to be some native resolution going forward? If anything the only thing I can see is some sort hardware/software built in API that makes temporal reprojection//eccentric forms of AA approximate 4K.

See my post from earlier? I think the second GPU or acceleration hardware is going to be used to push rendering to 4K.

I don't think this console is going to brute force it's way to 4K I think it's going to be by smart design & the main GPU will still be the same while there is hardware for pushing it to render at 4K.

my thought is that it will be a smaller GPU that's made for 4K rendering & maybe use half precision floating point & other things for higher performance while not being as big & power hungry as the main GPU.

 

[TitusTroy]

how would developers be able to develop games for the PlayStation if there are 2 wildly different versions and with 1 being twice as powerful as the other?

 

[Wishmaster92]

See my post from earlier? I think the second GPU or acceleration hardware is going to be used to push rendering to 4K.

That would be interesting

 

[StrongBlackVine]

See my post from earlier? I think the second GPU or acceleration hardware is going to be used to push rendering to 4K.

Where are you getting this second GPU stuff from?

 

[RoboPlato]

Between some of the dev posts in the other thread and here I really don't know what to think of this any more. I like the idea since I like consoles and tech but I'm also someone who is very pro-developer. I don't want to push the industry in a direction that's undesirable for them and create more work when they already bust their asses for us.

Kotaku described Sony's dev meetings on this as exploratory so it'll be interesting to see how this pans out. I hope it's handled in as smooth a way as possible for devs.

 

[Muzicfreq]

Where are you getting this second GPU stuff from?

It's a stacked gpu

 

[AmyS]

I think the most likely scenario is this.

There won't be a more powerful PS4K console. The next revision of PS4 will be able to play Ultra HD Blu-ray movies, but will have the exact same core specs as PS4. Will not split the market. Will not piss anyone off.

PS5 will arrive in Fall 2020 (using 10nm node for its APU) and will be a full generational leap over PS4. Compared with PS4's 8 core Jaguar CPU @ 1.6 GHz, PS5 will have 8-12 Zen+ or Zen 2 cores @ 2.8~3.2 GHz coupled with a GPU based on Navi (gpu architecture that comes after Polaris and Vega) and whatever AMD is calling "NextGen" memory, which I guess is something beyond the HBM2 standard (HBM3 or something else). 1.5 to 2 TeraByte/sec bandwidth

No external memory chips, all 2.5D or 3D stacked memory of some sort, allowing the motherboard to be simple and use less energy than otherwise. 32 GB memory, anything more is silly.
So CPU, GPU, stacked memory and everything in a single package. TDP should be around 180~200 watts (more than PS4 but less than original Xbox 360 and PS3).

Plenty of GPU tflops and good CPU combined with memory in package.

2-4 TB HDD.

The performance PS5 will offer can be used by developers for whatever they want.

i.e. native 4K games that don't go overboard with graphics. OR native 1080p games with truly next-gen graphical fidelity, lighting, physics, etc. OR target all the resources toward PSVR2 and 120 fps/Hz update rate.

A nice big palette of resources for for devs to build the experiences they want for the early and mid 2020s, be it 4K games, 1080p games or VR games.

 

[onQ123]

how would developers be able to develop games for the PlayStation if there are 2 wildly different versions and with 1 being twice as powerful as the other?

It's still a PS4 one will just render at a higher resolution & maybe have little touch ups

Where are you getting this second GPU stuff from?

The mind of a maniac

And y'all thought Ken was crazy

Between some of the dev posts in the other thread and here I really don't know what to think of this any more. I like the idea since I like consoles and tech but I'm also someone who is very pro-developer. I don't want to push the industry in a direction that's undesirable for them and create more work when they already bust their asses for us.

Kotaku described Sony's dev meetings on this as exploratory so it'll be interesting to see how this pans out. I hope it's handled in as smooth a way as possible for devs.

Asked yourself have any of the devs who have spoke out against this made a game for PS4K yet? well they have but they didn't even know they was making a game for PS4K because PS4K is a PS4.

They don't have to do much different & they could just stick to making games as they always have without trying to take advantage of PS4K.

 

[warheat]

See my post from earlier? I think the second GPU or acceleration hardware is going to be used to push rendering to 4K.

 

[KOHIPEET]

I believe that one of the reasons Sony has for making Playstation an iterative console is that this way they can avoid all the risk a change of generation can bring.

 

[Muzicfreq]

I believe that one of the reasons Sony has for making Playstation an iterative console is that this way they can avoid all the risk a change of generation can bring.

What are you even talking about?
How would it be a risk when it has happened plenty of times before?

 

[The God]

I believe that one of the reasons Sony has for making Playstation an iterative console is that this way they can avoid all the risk a change of generation can bring.

What do you mean?

 

[Hermii]

What are you even talking about?
How would it be a risk when it has happened plenty of times before?

PS2 to PS3 transition didn't go great. Wii to Wii U transition was a disaster. Generational shifts are always risky.

 

[Aztechnology]

What are you even talking about?
How would it be a risk when it has happened plenty of times before?

Because this generation shift is unlike any before it. With the establishment of middle-ware and the architecture being even closer to PC than ever the console released in a precarious position in terms of capabilities as it were. Out of the gate the consoles were struggling to implement graphical technologies that engines were pushing (See UE4's having to be paired down to work for the current gen consoles). Developers have done their best to work around the shortcomings but with the uniquely PC like architecture and industry always pushing for better technologies to drive game sales and hardware sales it's hard for any of the consoles to simply ignore it and ride it out for years to come. They could but they might risk losing market share if one of the other companies does it first or that people switch to the ever more attractive offering PC provides given the costs are now very close and ease of use has never been greater.

More and more companies will begin to move towards services and software as consumers demand more options in how they access the content they want. By releasing an iterative console design they attempt to keep those subscribers in their ecosystem until they can figure out how to move their services to multiple platforms or pivot their business into something else. Someone subbing to a year of PSN is more profitable than selling a console, and selling software on that console is many times more so, especially digital.

I've been drinking so I'm hoping that makes sense. It's what I think in my current state at least.

 

[KOHIPEET]

What do you mean?

What are you even talking about?
How would it be a risk when it has happened plenty of times before?

Well it's at least great amount of stress..
For the developers,
-getting to know new hardware,
For the publishers
-they should push new hardware but they also want to make money so they release on old hardware which, due to the immense difference between old gen and new gen forces them to make compromises
For the manufacturer
-the chance that a main competitor arrives before you on the market, and with a lower price, and somehow with more capable hardware

An iterative generation IMO, if nothing else, could ease these effects.

I'm not stating this as a fact, but as some previous examples showed, shifting into a new generation, for manufacturers can cause major fuckups resulting in being second, behind for an entire generation.

 

[TitusTroy]

It's still a PS4 one will just render at a higher resolution & maybe have little touch ups

that's not fair to those that bought the original PS4...they better offer one hell of a trade-in price

 

[Panajev2001a]

Because this generation shift is unlike any before it. With the establishment of middle-ware and the architecture being even closer to PC than ever the console released in a precarious position in terms of capabilities as it were. Out of the gate the consoles were struggling to implement graphical technologies that engines were pushing (See UE4's having to be paired down to work for the current gen consoles). Developers have done their best to work around the shortcomings but with the uniquely PC like architecture and industry always pushing for better technologies to drive game sales and hardware sales it's hard for any of the consoles to simply ignore it and ride it out for years to come.

PC like architecture seems to be like fairy dust you can just sprinkle everywhere and derive any conclusion you need or want. The underpowered meme is also very nice too .
Consoles generations are still making nice generational jumps and if they get smaller is not because of not releasing more often, but because PC boxes are a lot bigger, use more expensive and bigger cooling, and can target 3-5x the TDP consoles can... All things modern GPU's can rely on. We also mistake the power users for all PC users.

Releasing new hardware more often will or help keep up the pace with PC performance as much as people think it would. It is a strain of extra R&D for the console maker without a clear business plan to turn it into extra profit and given the size and thermal limitation of these boxes less R&D time on both architecture and manufacturing processes is the opposite of what they need.

 

[Aztechnology]

PC like architecture seems to be like fairy dust you can just sprinkle everywhere and derive any conclusion you need or want. The underpowered meme is also very nice too .
Consoles generations are still making nice generational jumps and if they get smaller is not because of not releasing more often, but because PC boxes are a lot bigger, use more expensive and bigger cooling, and can target 3-5x the TDP consoles can... All things modern GPU's can rely on. We also mistake the power users for all PC users.

Releasing new hardware more often will or help keep up the pace with PC performance as much as people think it would. It is a strain of extra R&D for the console maker without a clear business plan to turn it into extra profit and given the size and thermal limitation of these boxes less R&D time on both architecture and manufacturing processes is the opposite of what they need.

3-5 times the TDP? I just posted in another thread but a small form factor PC for just over $440 capable of out performing the PS4 on nearly a 2:1 ratio only has a power requirement of around 220w. The PS4 afaik gets up to ~150w during play.

 

[foolishoptimist]

that's not fair to those that bought the original PS4...they better offer one hell of a trade-in price

So you think it's unfair to owners of a product that a company decides to sell a new, different product? And that company should give you something, to be allowed to sell this new product?

Or what? You're going to buy the competitors similar product?

 

[Fafalada]

Are you saying it's not upscaling?

It's not - the mathematical equivalent is accumulation AA, but instead of AA they resolve the samples into a higher-resolution image.
Of course, that also makes it mathematically equivalent to Supersampling (so sure, people comparing it to "render in higher resolution" aren't completely wrong), however there are two notable differences:
1) There are no ordered grid limitations like with supersampling - you can use non-regular sample distributions, which usually leads to visually better results than just resolution scaling
2) At "some" point in your render pipeline, processing is split to process the scene multiple times. It's pretty much a guarantee that it is more expensive than normal rendering in higher resolution would be (at best, you could hope the cost to be the same).
Ie. this is not a shortcut to higher-resolution rendering for cheaper - it's actually more expensive, but the tradeoff in case of emulation is higher-compatibility, and as mentioned likely higher quality for the same pixel count.

This is not exactly like upscaling

It's nothing like upscaling, see above.

 

[jeff_rigby]

PC like architecture seems to be like fairy dust you can just sprinkle everywhere and derive any conclusion you need or want. The underpowered meme is also very nice too .
Consoles generations are still making nice generational jumps and if they get smaller is not because of not releasing more often, but because PC boxes are a lot bigger, use more expensive and bigger cooling, and can target 3-5x the TDP consoles can... All things modern GPU's can rely on. We also mistake the power users for all PC users.

Releasing new hardware more often will or help keep up the pace with PC performance as much as people think it would. It is a strain of extra R&D for the console maker without a clear business plan to turn it into extra profit and given the size and thermal limitation of these boxes less R&D time on both architecture and manufacturing processes is the opposite of what they need.

It depends on what their business model is and the roadmap of technology to support it.

The Yukon leaked Xbox 720 power point had a HDMI/DP (HDMI with DP features = HDMI2 with two video streams like AMD's DisplayPort EyeInfinity which the Sony VR goggles require) and Wireless 4G cell phone radio to support wireless VR glasses via WiMAX. Sony just purchased a company that has patents and 4G radio designs.

Upper right text box in this slide is for out of the home support for glasses and just to the left WiFi. The technology for IoT WiFi will use 4G which means the in home Goggles can use the same 4G:

Sony will likely have a upgraded VR Gogggle with 1080P/eye and WiFI 4G radio for wireless within two years or a year after the current VR goggles are released. This is for what I think the PS4K is targeted. It will have a WiFi 4G radio and possibly the updated WiFi for 4K video in the home with the added power to support 1080P VR.

The 4G radio will also be used to communicate with IoT devices in the home and as WiMAX has up to 1Gb/sec bandwidth.

Sony has stated that they will continue to manufacture and develop existing products, and that it will not only add its own products to be manufactured by the company in Israel, but it will work together with the new Israeli addition to develop new ones.

Altair was one of the world leaders in creating 4G technology for smartphones. The company currently employs 190 engineers and software developers at their Israeli headquarters. Altair works with several communications protocols such as LTE, XG-PHS and WiMAX,

WiMAX was mentioned in the leaked Xbox 720 Yukon powerpoint. bottom right. W-HDMI is also mentioned as is another Cell phone radio. That's Three Cell phone radio types mentioned which suggests the Yukon was the livingroom station for a Cell phone or Surface tablet or Second Screen.

Obviously the Yukon was designed to support VR but plans changed with Durango because Interposer and DDR4/HBM was not available for 2013. Sony using GDDR5 could support a less than optimal VR resolution at living room power levels (120 watts) and I believe both Microsoft and Sony have plans to support a more robust 1080P VR with a new upgraded console for holiday 2017. The consoles will have 4G radios and support wireless goggles or glasses.

 

[Backfoggen]

It depends on what their business model is and the roadmap of technology to support it.

The Yukon leaked Xbox 720 power point had a HDMI/DP (HDMI with DP features = HDMI2 with two video streams like AMD's DisplayPort EyeInfinity) and Wireless 4G cell phone radio to support wireless VR glasses via WiMAX. Sony just purchased a company that has patents and 4G radio designs.

Upper right text box in this slide:

Sony will likely have a upgraded VR Gogggle with 1080P/eye and WiFI 4G radio for wireless within two years or a year after the current VR goggles are released. This is for what I think the PS4K is targeted. It will have a WiFi 4G radio and possibly the updated WiFi for 4K video in the home with the added power to support 1080P VR.

The 4G radio will also be used to communicate with IoT devices in the home and as WiMAX has up to 1Gb/sec bandwidth.


WiMAX was mentioned in the leaked Xbox 720 Yukon powerpoint.

Why is this still happening

 

[Fafalada]

Why is this still happening

Reminds me of old-school Microsoft - Hololens would be what - 4 years late based on that slide?

 

[stan423321]

I don't think any of this is true. Yes, the original image posted shows an upscaling process. But if you actually read the patent, that's just a part of it. The important thing appears to be when that step is applied.

Unlike traditional upscaling, they're not (always) taking the final frame buffer and blowing it up. Instead they could be intercepting an initial or intermediate render target and upscaling that, then finishing the rendering process with further passes on this scaled target.

This is not exactly like upscaling, because the blowup isn't happening to the final frame. It's more similar to native rendering at a higher resolution, since there's a buffer at high res having effects applied. But it's not exactly that either, because the source of that high-res buffer is an upscale of a low-res buffer.

So it's a combination of upscaling and native rendering...hence "uprendering". It's not an elegant name, but neither does it seem meaningless like some folks believe.

Wait a freaking moment. Don't many games already do it? How did Sony patent this? Unless it's another case of no one reading a patent... or somehow treating, say, scaling deferred rendering buffer as a creative step... what the hell.

 

[ShamePain]

Shame that PS4 doesn't have a power brick, otherwise a PS4k would be unnecessary.

 

[leeh]

I am sure the Pany 20,000 texture data base upscaler is a bit more involved than 2 x 1080p, but what do I you you know. Is Sony's better, who knows.

Dont care much either way.

If you think companies are not creating fancy upscalers in an attempt to create a "more detailed" 4k image out of a 1080p image you're crazy...it's not a question of whether the image "needs" that upacaler...the algorithms are at work...

Do you honestly think this is the first time we've seen upscaling by using previous frames? Seriously?

It's also nothing like comparing a single photo to a panoramic photo...a panoramic is literally stitching images together side by side to create an extreme wide angle...this is nothing of the sort

I didn't say they weren't, I'm just saying they don't need to. It's moreso fluff in my eyes. Don't give me a TV with a greater response time because your wasting time improving an imagine which scales perfectly.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of any other game/thing which does the same as QB. KZ was similar but was interlaced, not the same.

I don't see how it's different. You could take the same single picture of the same frame and upscale it, or use a panarama to create the same image but stitched together of a higher resolution. I feel like it's the best analogy to use in this sense.

 

[Planet]

Now it is getting outright silly! Supersampling is a technique for anti aliasing where you render at a higher resolution, then downsize it to the actual display resolution. This up-render discussion is making less and less sense. It does exactly the opposite of supersampling.

With native rendering, you keep the depth of each pixel in mind alongside other aspects of the scene when applying anything to the image. When that stage is done and further image improvements are made using only the 2D pixel matrix, no matter how clever, the post processing phase is entered. And changing the size of the image to something larger on that phase is by definition upscaling.

 

[ZoyosJD]

It's still a PS4 one will just render at a higher resolution & maybe have little touch ups.

Just got through looking over the patent of "uprendering". I need to point out a few things to you starting with some basic clarification.

1. Uprendering is a process where a original image source (say 1080p) is rendered 4 times with subpixel shifts, then these 4 images are combined to create a single higher resolution output (say 4k).

2. The reason this was implemented for Sony's PS4 emulation of PS2 games is because some PS2 games were coded in such a manner that they needed to retain a frame of the original source with the correct image size for post processing.

3. This process would be inherently more strenuous on memory and processing than rendering natively at 4k due to all five frames being held in memory during the creation of the final output frame and the processing itself to perform that task (rendering the same number of total pixels, performing subpixel shifts, and recombining them).

It's a great tool for Sony to use to render games at higher resolution requiring minimal patching in certain situations where it is required for the game to render properly, but it is more costly in terms of power required than simply changing the native rendering resolution.

I don't believe recent games would require this particular method for a patchless higher resolution render. Even so, it or some variation of it may be.

Bottom line: It's a more expensive way to increase the native rendering resolution, but could potentially provide a patchless method to do so in some potential cases where simply increasing the native rendering resolution may cause errors. It should be avoided if possible.

 

[JordanN]

Out of the gate the consoles were struggling to implement graphical technologies that engines were pushing (See UE4's having to be paired down to work for the current gen consoles). Developers have done their best to work around the shortcomings but with the uniquely PC like architecture and industry always pushing for better technologies to drive game sales and hardware sales it's hard for any of the consoles to simply ignore it and ride it out for years to come.

Man, this example is getting annoying.

UE4 still works on consoles, it didn't go anywhere. I'm also not sure why the engine is being held to now (outdated) 2012 standards.

The same downgraded UE4 didn't have PBR (it was still using an experimental material system up until its release). As well as a ton of other new features that were added in later.

 

[coastel]

Shame that PS4 doesn't have a power brick, otherwise a PS4k would be unnecessary.

Shame xbox 1 doesn't have a power brick otherwise the xbox next would be unnecessary...oh wait.