NURBS console! Never forget... You forgot that it was able to launch missiles because it was so powerful!
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Patrick Klepek: Sony possibly looking at increasing Neo specs due to Scorpio
- Thread starter Obliterator
- Start date
NURBS console! Never forget... You forgot that it was able to launch missiles because it was so powerful!
Given the PS2 had Ridge Racer 5, SSX, TimeSplitters and Tekken Tag at launch then games like ICO, Silent Hill 2 and Onimusha in its first year I think you couldn't be more wrong.
I'm seriously interested how much of the impact the power difference between PS4 and xbox had has to be attributed to the xbox one seemingly missing 1080p.
Because that is something that get abbreviated into "the Xbox One is not FullHD". And FullHD is a heavily marketed term that represent superior picture quality in TV's and Blu-Ray's.
I guess if the Xbox One hit 1080p but lacked in a mix of framerate, draw distance, shadows it would have been half as bad for MS.
Jacksinthe
Banned
No.
For the industry to survive we need better tool timeframe where tools don't change drastically every 6 years and instead make small movements every 3.
Shifting tools is a huge thorn that costs devs a lot of money. With iterations of hardware more frequently we will be able to make these shifts in smaller increments with fewer headaches and the end user can simply skip an iteration and wait so long as FC keeps a 1 console spread. You won't be forced to upgrade.
So nothing changes for you if you don't want it to but it will help us devs make smoother and shorter transitions. The only way it impacts you is if you believe it does. You aren't forced to upgrade.
I'd rather have an industry move forward in smaller steps than fumble trying to climb a new mountain. Stairs are much easier than sheer faces of rock to ascend.
And what does that have to do with console sales overall? You know what else people were saying? Power doesn't matter and X1 has more exclusives and Kinect will appeal to casuals and Wii U would dominate. Crying about what people say on a forum is a pointless endeavor when you have millions of people with tons of opinions. So yes power is important but it's not going to turn the tide for your X-team. Honestly if power was as important as y'all are claiming it to be now why did you go out and get an X1 instead of a ps4? So maybe it's a variety of factors people weigh when purchasing a console.
But OG XBox didn't dent PS2 somehow. The PS1 momentum probably mattered to devs.
wapplew
Member
I was a SEGA fan back then and I bought PS2 due to power and it can play DVD. I didn't research on what games available on what console.
Then I play ICO/SoTC and it changed my mind on Sony first party. After that I become a Sony fan and buy every Sony console since, therefor I'll buy a Neo.
I guess PS fans will still buy Neo regardless of power but neutral will get the more powerful Scorpio.
"You couldn't be more wrong".
No, but people are still saying that power is important to them and they want Neo as close as possible to the Scorpio because.
And people are still trying to say that power difference never mattered at all.
why do you think so many people abandoned the 360 and moved to PS4?
If it was for playstation worldwide appeal - wouldn't they have had a PS3 instead of the 360?
I'm not saying its everyone of course (wanting the more powerful console) - but it's a big reason. the awful launch of the X1...
stan423321
Member
The traditional upgrade cycle is dead already. Silicon doesn't escape imagination like it used to, most devs rely on complex frameworks for their games instead of interacting directly with hardware... A traditional upgrade would not be justified in the next 5 years or so. Remember, the 7 year gap was not traditional at all.
Building a way better machine would be possible, by the way, but not by means of direct power increase. A complete redesign of the hardware architecture would be required, and we would end up with something only Ken Kutaragi likes to program or something.
Manmademan
Member
There are a lot of reasons for this, and power isn't even necessarily the most relevant. Gamers heavily involved in the previous generation noticed that Sony's first party support for their system was flat out better for core gamers than Microsoft's in the later years of both systems. That built a lot of goodwill for them while MS was chasing the Kinect money from the casual audience. The XboxOne was also significantly more expensive at launch, mandated the inclusion of a motion gaming accessory few of the core audience had a use for, and had a botched messaging campaign that had people convinced that used games simply would not be playable. The fanbase did not react well at all to that last one.
The PS3 was significantly more expensive than the 360 for a long time, with a MUCH worse online/multiplayer system for most of its time on the market. There was also the issue that the ps3's difficulty in programming combined with microsoft's deep pockets meant that certain multiplatform and third party titles routinely showed up late and buggy to PS3 or not at all.
Nearly every generation we've had since the NES has had the market leader not being at the top of the pile in terms of resolution and graphics. Nes over Master system, PS1 over N64, PS2 over GC/DC/Xbox, Wii over 360 and PS3. The sole exception was the SNES/Genesis- and even that one had the Genesis beating the SNES head to head every year in the US until sega pulled support for it far earlier than Nintendo did to focus on the Saturn. Core gamers care about graphics quite a bit and are very vocal about it, but the mass market consumers that buy FIFA/Madden every year and little else seem to place priorities on other things besides that.
Souless_PJ
Banned
Everyone bought a PS4 because it was the best place to play multiplats plus it was cheaper without Kinect and xbox shit the bed with its launch messenging.
It certainly wasn't the exclusives for the first year or so.
It certainly wasn't the exclusives for the first year or so.
Okay that's your perspective. That doesn't change that the PS2 was more than a DVD player at launch and that it had a lot of critically acclaimed games in its first year. Tekken was still a global phenomenon back then and while the Dreamcast only had American sports games, PS2 had Pro Evo and FIFA. It was the console with universal appeal.
This just popped up.
So. What are the odds that Scorpio / Neo will be Raven Ridge based (custom APU of course).
My understanding is that AMD has kind of a SOC construction kit. The current console APUs where on no roadmap and not available for PCs and that's what I expect from the future console APUs.
Theonik
Member
These are 28nm parts. The Neo/Scorpio will be 16nm FF+.This just popped up.
So. What are the odds that Scorpio / Neo will be Raven Ridge based (custom APU of course).
e: They will be custom using whatever parts AMD offers and the console makers wish to buy, not based on available SoCs
I understand that; but this does show some insight in products that they are talking about.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Every one should be out of denial by now. You should be in the acceptance stage by now
The PS4 was cheaper, more powerful, has more powerful brand recognition and did not screw up its launch PR. Scorpio will have more power and none of the other advantages. How do you think this will play out? It may do a bit a bit better in the US/UK but won't be anything like the 360 days. I don't even think it will become the market leader in either territory. Worldwide will continue to be extremely lopsided.
I was upset at first and then I realised paying £150-200 every 3-4 years for a new console (when selling off the old one) really isn't a big deal. The previous generation went on far longer than it should have done and it's unreasonable to expect that again.
Both Neo and Scorpio will be mine and my PS4 and Xbox One will be put on ebay. No big deal.
wapplew
Member
I mean, PS4 and Xbox one are still very traditional, obviously not dead yet.
The thing is are these all the same people?
Ok look at the PS3 it launched a 1 year after and was able to achieve around the same or more? than X360. What does that tell you?
In terms people going from X360 to PS4 as you said quite a bit will be down to XB1's early days but imo that only matters and is amplified in countries both are high competitive, other things that would have made people switch in these markets would be things like price.
The point is in a more levelled playing field we have today with both consoles having launched around the same time you can see PS WW advantage showing clearly.
Power will help in competitive markets where sales of both brands are close enough and can help MS become the market leader again i.e US/UK but in markets where they are traditionally don't have a strong presence it's not going to make a big enough difference.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Who needs the Olympics when we have outstanding gymnastics in this thread? 
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Who needs the Olympics when we have outstanding gymnastics in this thread?
I see more looking for a spin than people actually doing it. And I have read this entire topic.
shadowsdarknes
Member
How can you say it's an unusually short shelf life when there is nothing else you can compare this to with a longer shelf life? As if stop gap consoles have been some sort of common occurrence with long shelf life.
But PS4 was more powerful while being cheaper option. How hard is it to understand? Add better marketing message and you have winning combo.
Neo is kinda set at this point. Sony can fiddle with clocks but it probably wont get out of the 4tflop range. I would also worry that the overclock could make the neo another hair dryer console.
Outside of delaying theres not much sony can do. Microsoft can always adjust their specs and with xbox running on a virtual layer theres much less hardware dependency for compatibility. Microsoft had the upper hand and a lot more flexibility. Of course that means nothing if they fuck up the messaging again.
Outside of delaying theres not much sony can do. Microsoft can always adjust their specs and with xbox running on a virtual layer theres much less hardware dependency for compatibility. Microsoft had the upper hand and a lot more flexibility. Of course that means nothing if they fuck up the messaging again.
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
Exactly that. MS had a very negative message for the majority of gamers, used games, DRM etc. Plus at launch they only offered a Kinect bundle, when they should have offered consoles without it as well. Of course the news about 720p resolutions didn't help either. If MS had done all of that different, i bet more people would have stuck with Xbox, Sony may still have been market leader anyway, but not as crazy as it is now.
I really doubt they're going to be making the same kind of mistakes again. Them coming with Scorpio and the way Spencer announced it is a sign of them acknowledging their errors and trying to fix it now. Really doubt they will mess up with the messaging again.
Eh, it's all relative, and price/library massively favoured the Dreamcast for that year.. not that it even mattered, because the PS2 had killed the DC before it even hit the shelves. Whilst I fucking love Ridge Racer V (best in the series by a wide margin), it was very much seen as a step-back for the series at the time, and Tekken Tag was viewed as a very conservative semi-sequel to Tekken 3, and certainly wasn't being compared favourably with Soul Calibur at the time.
Momentum, yes... but that momentum snowballed when the PS2 specs were revealed, along with those famous tech demos (Reiko, Old Man, etc), it cuts the legs out from under the Dreamcast almost immediately (which had been gaining quite a bit of momentum before it suddenly became the "weak" console.
The OG Xbox doesn't really factor into this, because it simply arrived on the scene too late to even factor. The PS2 launched with the hype of being a super computer at home, and the most capable games playing device there was. If the Xbox had been revealed early enough to undermine the PS2's hardware prowess (like the PS2 did to DC), then it probably would have made a far more significant dent... but it didn't.
Also, I want to be clear that I'm not saying that console power is the alpha and omega in terms of how a generation plays out (we have more than enough examples to contradict this). I'm just pointing out an example where I recall the mere allusion to the power of a system being able to but the breaks on a competing platform.
As I said my above reply the xb360 was cheaper, had better multi-plats majority of the time, 1 year lauch yet the PS3 was still about the achieve similar numbers overall.
Those advantages PS4 among other things are what helped it in being the market leader in places like US/UK they are not the reason why PS4 has >2:1 ratios is some countries.
gundamkyoukai
Member
PS4 also did not launch a year later ( year and a half later n EU ) that also help.
I prefer how Sony are doing it. As long as the price is right. The gap in power between Scorpio and XB1 is too wide that rhe XB1 holds back the Scorpio way too much. Where as with Neo it's a mild upgrade and I'm sure the development tools are way more easier arena similar between PS4 and Neo than what XB1 and Durango is. I'd prefer Sony to then release PS5 is 3 or 4 years that has backwards compatability but arena clean slate where PS4 Neo is not forward compatible to PS4. Vanilla PS4 and PS4 Neo should be part of the PS4 family. While PS5 should be the beginning of the PS5 family.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Price is the largest factor when power is somewhat comparable. Couple that with X1's atrocious messaging at the start and here we are.
Power was merely icing on that cake. Right now it's more important to release first to get people dependent on the platform rather than power. Full BC and a touch of FC is the best bet. If that doesn't happen then the future of iterative releases will fail. Nobody wants to lose everything again and again.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Including the last four or five pages.....?
We interpret things differently then
Price sure but the Dreamcast's library didn't have that mainstream appeal. I still have my Dreamcast on my desk plugged into my monitor but I have to put my biases aside and accept that the PS2 had the games the public wanted.
It'll be very interesting to see how moving to this tick-tock kind of cycle plays out. We've really never seen anything like it before in console gaming and there really is no direct analog I can think of in PC or even mobile gaming.
My gut instinct tells me that even if Neo launches as significantly less powerful than Scorpio, the install base of the current PS4 coupled with the +/- 1 year launch lead and the nebulous pricing (and IIRC specs too) of the Scorpio currently will give it the edge. If you are one of the 40+ million that have already bought into the PS4 ecosystem, you are much more likely to upgrade to a Neo and stay in that ecosystem, and if you're still a fence sitter after 3 years, it gives you the perfect excuse to finally buy in and get a more powerful system for (assumably) a similar price to the PS4's $399 launch price and play 3 years worth of exclusives for dirt-cheap and (hopefully) better performance. Scorpio will appeal to XBO owners looking for an upgrade, but really the delta between a $400 console and a PC that will blow that console out of the water in resolution and frame rate is very minor (~$200 last I checked), so I'd have to assume that market is rather small too, and that's assuming the Scorpio can even hit a $400 price point. As long as the Neo isn't $400+, Sony is going snipe most of the fence-sitters I think and everybody else kind of made their decision 3 years ago more or less.
My gut instinct tells me that even if Neo launches as significantly less powerful than Scorpio, the install base of the current PS4 coupled with the +/- 1 year launch lead and the nebulous pricing (and IIRC specs too) of the Scorpio currently will give it the edge. If you are one of the 40+ million that have already bought into the PS4 ecosystem, you are much more likely to upgrade to a Neo and stay in that ecosystem, and if you're still a fence sitter after 3 years, it gives you the perfect excuse to finally buy in and get a more powerful system for (assumably) a similar price to the PS4's $399 launch price and play 3 years worth of exclusives for dirt-cheap and (hopefully) better performance. Scorpio will appeal to XBO owners looking for an upgrade, but really the delta between a $400 console and a PC that will blow that console out of the water in resolution and frame rate is very minor (~$200 last I checked), so I'd have to assume that market is rather small too, and that's assuming the Scorpio can even hit a $400 price point. As long as the Neo isn't $400+, Sony is going snipe most of the fence-sitters I think and everybody else kind of made their decision 3 years ago more or less.
wapplew
Member
I have no problem for a new generation without BC and FC.
I think BC is overrated, I'm all for lose everything if that's the price for exclusives for new hardware.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I think BC is a given at this point .
It's FC that might separate MS and Sony .
Hoping PS5 is clean break from PS4 with the usual cross gen for a year or 2 .
We're talking the early days here. Stuff like Tekken Tag had no more mainstream appeal than something like Soul Calibur did.. and certainly not the ICOs of the world. The DC still got rolled in the US too despite the hype for the 2K sports series being very real at the time, and the console had stuff like Resident Evil Code Veronica pegged as an exclusive.
No console was fucking with mid/late-gen PS2'S library (and no console probably ever will again)... but it didn't get its initial grounding off the back of those titles. It was "powah" and MGS2 (demonstrating that power).
gundamkyoukai
Member
The PS2 library was crazy for the first year .
Also tekken was huge back in the day , it was much bigger than SC .
Sony also show off GT before the system was even out .
I call the first year of a system early unless you only talk about the first few months .
I don't get that view. Why would you wan't that?
Wouldn't you prefer it if for example you could play Bloodborne on your PS5 just as it was on your PS4?
We're going to see end of life dates for these consoles sometime, but wouldn't you prefer it if two of them were in-life but every game from the past can run?
wapplew
Member
Why should I care about support on my old console when I buy a new one?
Wouldn't you prefer every game on your new console doesn't get compromise by your old console?
We'll have to agree to disagree then! In Europe especially Tekken was massive, a real system seller. PS2 really came into its stride a year after launch but IMO there was plenty there for early adopters too and before its western launch there was that MGS2 trailer at E3 2000...
gundamkyoukai
Member
Because i don't want PS4 and NEO holding back PS5 for to long .
Old games will play better on PS5 is for certain .
But i don't want for eg TLOU3 to be hold back by low bandwidth , poor CPU etc etc .
Why would a game get compromised if you had end of life's for the previous consoles which are too old? Are PC's impacted by lower-end PC's or something? I don't get this view...
They are actually.
It doesn't really matter that much these days though because very few people even attempt games which would conceptually (that is, with minimal graphics) require more performance than a half-decent PC provides.
lol at people that actually think ICO had mainstream appeal..most people have never heard of it
gundamkyoukai
Member
PCs do get hold back by older PCs.
Still that is not much of a problem since PC devs don't really push hardware as much anymore.
The min spec for PCs games is not that high compare to hardware that out there .
You have to remember that a 5 year old PC have a better CPUs than what in these systems .
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