• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 on PSVR

Hektor

Member
We live in societies that simultaneously objectify and denigrate women. Sexualisation of women is the ubiquitous, and it affects the way many men see women as objects rather than people.

This add-on contributes to all these things - while fictional, it reinforces the idea that women are objects with no agency that simply exist.

Gaming is like any other media, and how people are portrayed in it can either challenge or reinforce existing prejudices & attitudes. This add-on reinforces women as submissive objects and that men can ignore issues of consent for their own enjoyment.

You can choose to ignore changes in sexual politics, and you can continue to believe that games are in some way isolated from the rest of culture & society, but in making that choice you commit yourself to an ethical and intellectual cul-de-sac.

I know this is coming off as whataboutism, but what about violent videogames?

It's not that I disagree with you, I very much agree with the basics of what you're saying, but videogames not existing in a vacuum and the idea that videogames can promote real life behavior is both nothing new, yet you only ever see this argument leveraged against sexual games here on GAF where ssh people dress doing the same thing about violent videogames are getting laughed at like jonathan blow.

If people were actually believing in the arguments they were making against sex games they would have to be against overly violet videogames as well, that would be the only logical consequence, as both kinds of games to the very same thing.

Most people ITT aren't doing this and are perfectly fine with violent videogames according to their post histories.

You knew why that is? Because those people didn't thought about pros and cons of these things before coming to a logical conclusion
And instead they had a conclusion of one thing being good and the other being bad, probably just because they grew up with one thing over the other, and are retroactively trying to justify their opinions.
 

NOOI

Banned
So you can murder and dismember someone digitally but you can't feel them up?

Interesting that in Japan dismembering is really not tolerated in gaming. Japan just has very low tolerance for gore.

Also note that Japan has extremely low crime rates and especially low rates of sexual assault. The fact that there is a lot of portrayals of rape in their entertainment didn't seem to lead to people doing the same in real life.

I mean, it is a fact that the Japanese people are having less physical sex in general over time. If that is true then how is it their sexual entertainment media didn't reverse it? The Japanese should be horny constantly if their games are any indication, and yet we have Japanese politicians seriously discussing the exact opposite as a social issue.

This thread is now about people defending a game called rapelay.

It's great when people show their true colors.
And what colour is that?

If I play the game "Plagues Inc", which had the goal of causing the extinction of the human race, does that mean I secretly want to be a bio terrorist?
 
This thread is now about people defending a game called rapelay.

It's great when people show their true colors.

Posts like this are hilarious. Instead of actually adressing the points you just vaguely attack anyone you disagree with and contribute nothing

Congrats on making yourself feel better I guess?
 

zoukka

Member
There are very few games where "murder" is portrayed realistically and with realistic consequences.

I would definitely be against any game allowing you to rape someone. That shit should be illegal to produce and own.
 

Hermii

Member
We live in societies that simultaneously objectify and denigrate women. Sexualisation of women is the ubiquitous, and it affects the way many men see women as objects rather than people.

This add-on contributes to all these things - while fictional, it reinforces the idea that women are objects with no agency that simply exist.

Gaming is like any other media, and how people are portrayed in it can either challenge or reinforce existing prejudices & attitudes. This add-on reinforces women as submissive objects and that men can ignore issues of consent for their own enjoyment.

You can choose to ignore changes in sexual politics, and you can continue to believe that games are in some way isolated from the rest of culture & society, but in making that choice you commit yourself to an ethical and intellectual cul-de-sac.

I think DOAX 3 is fine because its digital soft porn and makes no attempt at hiding it. If thats not what you want, then dont play the game. I dont see gaffers outraged at real porn.

Hovewer I think its a problem when its inserted into more serious games, like Cortana and Quiet being naked for silly reasons.
 
There are very few games where "murder" is portrayed realistically and with realistic consequences.

There are plenty. Unless I misunderstand what you mean with "realistic consequences"

Manhunt, Gears of War, God of War, GTA

Do those games not fit that description?
 
Oh bravo.

Are there any Gaffers with sexual experience in Japan? I read a Ryu Murakami book (in the miso soup I think), where he describes a girl's first sexual encounter, and how she cried a bit like she thought she was supposed to, to make the sex better. I don't know if this was intended as societal criticism, or simply that because Japanese porn is kinda like this pretty often, that this is how sex has been internalized in Japan. That good sex is when the man is being assertive and caveman and the woman goes nonono while meaning yes?

Dude you don't know the half of it, either I have had the worse luck when I hooked up with Japanese women or all of them are submissive because they think it is cute to be submissive that is what guys want. If you want a girl who will actually do stuff you need one who has study abroad/traveled outside of Japan.
 

zoukka

Member
There are plenty. Unless I misunderstand what you mean with "realistic consequences"

Manhunt, Gears of War, God of War, GTA

Do those games not fit that description?

Manhunt comes pretty close. The setting is believable (yet highly unlikely) and they aimed to make the killing as disgusting as possible. Your other examples not so much, they have fairly unrealistic/fantastical settings and while GTA has a contemporary setting, it's story doesn't take itself seriously in any way. It's a cartoon take on America.

None of these examples show the consequence of killing after someone is killed.
 

kyser73

Member
Thanks. I don't agree with you, but I'll think about it.

Basically I think this is a view of sexism that is way too simplistic.
Sexism can be tackled by improving representation of women without vilifying and attempting to change or ban pornographic content.

I also vehemently disagree with the notion that a game where you can poke the butt of a girl has the societal impact you speak of. There are people who are unhinged and can't separate reality from fiction, sure, but for a large percentage this is nothing more than a toy. It's the same argument about violence in games affecting real world violence. The connection is flimsy at best

People can drive through a group of civiilians in GTA or inappropriately touch a girl in DOAX3 and still continue to live a normal life and have progressive views and thoughts. People can use literally anything to enforce their problematic views, they don't need a game for that. They just need to go on the closest reddit or facebook group and talk to likeminded people. I see the impact of a game or any piece of media as completely insignificant compared to that.

This is a fringe and niche piece of entertainment and has a right to exists. You'd have an argument if we were talking about rape secenes in something like Game of Thrones, but we're not.

Holy shit, civilised debate :) thanks for the reply.

My point is less that this one example is going to 'affect' anyone any more than other examples, but it's another example of contributing to the climate of objectification & denigration of women, and I think that's a valid criticism of it.

I'm not calling for it to be banned, but it is a bit creepy...but then look at my comment of the first page :D
 

casiopao

Member
There are very few games where "murder" is portrayed realistically and with realistic consequences.

I would definitely be against any game allowing you to rape someone. That shit should be illegal to produce and own.

Huh? CoD is not portrayed realistically? How realistic you can be when u are shooting people? Most FPS is more or less looks damn real lol. Prey also is damn violence. God of War especially when u are killing the humanoid gods also looks so brutal. This is not even counting many Japanese VN which shows tons of Gore.(Saya no Uta shudder.T_T)

I had a question on the second portion though. Do you consider some of those erotic novel/porn movies where the shows story about raping also should be banned? Or just games?
 

zoukka

Member
Huh? CoD is not portrayed realistically? How realistic you can be when u are shooting people? Most FPS is more or less looks damn real lol. Prey also is damn violence. God of War especially when u are killing the humanoid gods also looks so brutal. This is not even counting many Japanese VN which shows tons of Gore.(Saya no Uta shudder.T_T)

No, COD games are not realistic in any way. Not even the presentation, it's way over done. It's a cartoon take on war. Lot's of gore doesn't make something realistic.

I had a question on the second portion though. Do you consider some of those erotic novel/porn movies where the shows story about raping also should be banned? Or just games?

Depends. Rape is a real life occurrance so of course it's something that happens in stories. But if there's a novel that aims to fulfill rape fantasies, I would ban that shit no questions asked. Same thing for any media.
 

Hermii

Member
Huh? CoD is not portrayed realistically? How realistic you can be when u are shooting people? Most FPS is more or less looks damn real lol. Prey also is damn violence. God of War especially when u are killing the humanoid gods also looks so brutal. This is not even counting many Japanese VN which shows tons of Gore.(Saya no Uta shudder.T_T)

I had a question on the second portion though. Do you consider some of those erotic novel/porn movies where the shows story about raping also should be banned? Or just games?

Is this a joke? No cod is not realistic. You dont hear the screams from People who lost a limb, actually you dont see anyone suffer at all either they are dead or alive. You dont see the suffering of civilians, dead, dying, wounded women and children. COD is as war glorifying as it gets.
 
Holy shit, civilised debate :) thanks for the reply.

My point is less that this one example is going to 'affect' anyone any more than other examples, but it's another example of contributing to the climate of objectification & denigration of women, and I think that's a valid criticism of it.

I'm not calling for it to be banned, but it is a bit creepy...but then look at my comment of the first page :D

Yes, it is objectifying women and it is sexist in that only women are presented this way. That's hard to deny if you just go by the definition of the words. It has little to do with sexism as a systemic issue though.

Looking at it in context of what it is, softcore porn, I just can't see anything wrong with it. It's one piece of porn for men in a literal ocean of it, much of it way, way worse.

Unless your goal is to fundamentally change what kind of porn people watch and what is produced (good luck!), this just isn't an issue. It's no more problematic or wrong than others. You may as well go on PornHub and comment under every video how terribly sexist it is.
 

SilentRob

Member
Alright, here are 2of the many differences between this and murdering people in games like Gears of War. I could go on and on but I really think it's pretty obvious to anyone who actually wants to think about this for a minute so I don't want to spend too much time on this.

1) Intention

In most games where violence is used as a gameplay mechanics, it's used as a way to reach your main character's goals which most of the time happens to be: Save the world. Sometimes there are variations. Sometimes you have to get revenge on a bad person. Sometimes the motivations are less refined. But in 99% of these games your acts of violence serve a "greater good". If you agree with this violence being a good way to reach that greater good or not is irrelevant for this point, since the violence isn't self-contained and a target in and on itself. The characters use violence and murder to reach a goal and, most of the time, to make the world a better place (Call of Duty, Tom Clancy Games, Gears of War, Half-Life, Halo, etc. etc.)

If that's not the case, the violence you act upon other people can be a theme in and on itself: God of War or Spec Ops: The Line would be two examples for games that make the violent outbursts of their main characters part of their story (to two very different ends).

A third intention: Parody. Games like Mortal Kombat portray violence in such an over-the-top way that any resemblance to real world killing and violence get's thrown out the window. The Fatalities in MK have absolutely nothing to do with real-world killing.

Compare that to this case: You have no end goal here. You don't save the world by sexually assaulting someone. You don't have to do something you don't like to do because it's part of a deeper story. It's not pushed to such an absurd extreme that it comes off as a completely unrealistic parody. You just molest a teenager in a swimsuit and that's it.

2) Realism

Taking a chainsaw and cutting someone in two halves is not a regular occurence other people are afraid of. Sexual assault, on the other hand, is a regular everyday occurence. According to this survey, 99% of women have experienced harassment on the street, 57% of which " reported being touched or grabbed in a sexual way by a stranger in public." I cannot stress this enough: Sexual harrasment isn't murder in that it is a big, special occurence. It happens to pretty much every woman in some form or other and to more than half of them in almost the exact way it gets portrayed in this game. It's not some abstract way, glorified, unrealistic way to save the world like violence regularly is in video games, it's an everyday occurence that almost every woman in the world has experienced.

And just as a small PS:

This "But what about..."-stuff is a terrible, awful argument even if it were accurate. Because you guys are trying to defend the simulation of sexual assault but you aren’t doing it by defending it on its own merit, but by simply comparing it to other, awful stuff. You are not saying “This is fine!” but you are saying “Well, this is awful too!” How does that help your argument? All it does is out other people as hypocrites (again, if the argument would be valid) but it doesn’t actually defend the simulation of sexual assault that is happening here. No one seems to be going “No, this isn't terrible!" but instead "Yeah, but this is terrible, too!".
 

casiopao

Member
No, COD games are not realistic in any way. Not even the presentation, it's way over done. It's a cartoon take on war. Lot's of gore doesn't make something realistic.



Depends. Rape is a real life occurrance so of course it's something that happens in stories. But if there's a novel that aims to fulfill rape fantasies, I would ban that shit no questions asked. Same thing for any media.

Well, if CoD is not counted as realistic then many of the H-games which had rape as the gameplay is also not counted as realistic there. I mean, the interaction and the female depiction is borderline cartoonish too. I mean, the female end up being loving it is something not logical at all.

I see. Then, we are on different opinion then. I don't had problem with those fantasies thing as i believe that each person had their own fetish which of course many often can't be disclosed. As long as the media provide them some kind of place to ease themselves and they don't hurt anyone on RL, i don't really had any problem with it.

Is this a joke? No cod is not realistic. You dont hear the screams from People who lost a limb, actually you dont see anyone suffer at all either they are dead or alive. You dont see the suffering of civilians, dead, dying, wounded women and children. COD is as war glorifying as it gets.

See the post up there. Sorry failed to quote ur.T_T
 

Hektor

Member
1) Intention

In most games where violence is used as a gameplay mechanics, it's used as a way to reach your main character's goals which most of the time happens to be: Save the world. Sometimes there are variations. Sometimes you have to get revenge on a bad person. Sometimes the motivations are less refined. But in 99% of these games your acts of violence serve a "greater good". If you agree with this violence being a good way to reach that greater good or not is irrelevant for this point, since the violence isn't self-contained and a target in and on itself. The characters use violence and murder to reach a goal and, most of the time, to make the world a better place (Call of Duty, Tom Clancy Games, Gears of War, Half-Life, Halo, etc. etc.)

This is true for the characters it depicts, but certainly NOT for the player. Nobody plays a videogame in order to save the digital world. A world that is only ln danger because you decided to boot up the game in the first place.

People are playing theses games because they enjoy the moment to moment gameplay of killing things and seeing explosion. Saving the world tropes are nothing but window dressing to contextualize these fights.

If it were in fact about saving the world we'd be seeing less games that have you fighting people or monster and more in which you fight the climate change.
 
No one seems to be going “This is A-OK because…” but simply “This is just as terrible as X, because…”

There are arguments in this thread which don't rely on "this is also bad"

It's just pointing out the hypocrisy. Sure both SHOULD be seen as bad, but they're not. Why is that? You do make some points but I'd argue it's much more of what you're used and desensitized to than story and intent. Which in multiplayer deathmatch for example barely even plays a role. People go around in GTA V killing everything that moves, just because they can. Intent doesn't matter.

Also here's another difference between DOAX3 and Gears

One is a niche porn prodcut for a niche market that many people will never even hear of which will mostly be sought out by people who were into it in the first place

The other is a game produced for a mass audience with ads in your face everywhere
 

UrbanRats

Member
I will be willing to lose all sexualisation of women in media, if women agree to do the same with sexualisation of men with THEIR media.

I will be willing to make the trade. The hard part is we both know the women would never allow it.

I hate this stance.
This is not a war between women and men.
It's a more nuanced and complicated argument, and (some level of) sexualization in media exists for a reason, and it's not universally evil.

The point is that different people (women OR men) experience sexuality and bounce off of various types of sexual content differently.
This is the first step to accept, if we even want to have this argument, and it doesn't seem like a lot of people are willing to.

Conflating the over-present sexualization of women in society, with the generalization that all sexualization has to be purged, is a dumb starting point.
And before anyone points out how "but nobody is saying that"; Right, the problem is different people are saying completely different things, and it's not very clear where you'd draw the line.
For some Bayonetta is gross and inappropriate, some draw the line further than that, and so on and so forth.

Just pretending that it's a simple and clear cut discussion is like banging your head against the wall.
 

zoukka

Member
I see. Then, we are on different opinion then. I don't had problem with those fantasies thing as i believe that each person had their own fetish which of course many often can't be disclosed. As long as the media provide them some kind of place to ease themselves and they don't hurt anyone on RL, i don't really had any problem with it.

Yeah this is an age old question about free speech. My position has been stated. I can respect yours (even though I disagree).
 
The point is that different people (women OR men) experience sexuality and bounce off of various types of sexual content differently.
This is the first step to accept, if we even want to have this argument, and it doesn't seem like a lot of people are willing to.

But this is made for (heterosexual) men. Why does it matter how women experience it?

I don't want to speak for women, but there probably should be more and better suited pornographic content for them. But that has nothing to do with DOAX3 existing.

No one would put a woman in a bikini that you can grope into Assassins Creed. That would be wrong on so many levels. We're talking about something completely different here though.
 
But this is made for (heterosexual) men. Why does it matter how women experience it?

I don't want to speak for women, but there probably should be more and better suited pornographic content for them. But that has nothing to do with DOAX3 existing.

Because voyeurism is not healthy sexuality, nor is harassment, molestation, or rape.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Dude you don't know the half of it, either I have had the worse luck when I hooked up with Japanese women or all of them are submissive because they think it is cute to be submissive that is what guys want. If you want a girl who will actually do stuff you need one who has study abroad/traveled outside of Japan.

Yeah that's kind of what I figured. So this isn't so much a sexual assault simulator, as much like a simulator of pretty typical Japanese foreplay.
 

zoukka

Member
Yeah that's kind of what I figured. So this isn't so much a sexual assault simulator, but more like a simulator of pretty typical Japanese foreplay.

But this game is available for western audiences, ignorant to the secrets of typical japanese foreplay.
 

UrbanRats

Member
But this is made for (heterosexual) men. Why does it matter how women experience it?

I don't want to speak for women, but there probably should be more and better suited pornographic content for them. But that has nothing to do with DOAX3 existing.

Doesn't change the fact that going "I'll give up my toy, when they give up theirs!" is a stupid way to go about this whole discussion.
It's no use further going down the "us v them" rabbit hole.

Compare that to this case: You have no end goal here. You don't save the world by sexually assaulting someone. You don't have to do something you don't like to do because it's part of a deeper story. It's not pushed to such an absurd extreme that it comes off as a completely unrealistic parody. You just molest a teenager in a swimsuit and that's it.

This has always been a bad cop out answer in defense of violence in games and media.
"You have to do something you don't like to save the world" is not a good excuse, when that something is fabricated as an excuse to use that violence, and that violence is glorified and rendered exciting, because that is the actual point of the game.
It's the equivalent of people wanting the zombie apocalypse so they have an excuse to shoot their guns at humanoid targets.

And listen, i don't even have a problem with violence in videogames, i think living out dangerous fantasies (like violence) in a safe space, and without hurting anyone, is very normal for humans, but you should still be aware of what you're doing.
You're not saving the world, you're being (virtually) violent because it's fun and cathartic, and you'll find any flimsy excuse to do it.
And that's fine, real violence is horrible, pretend violence is not (necessarily).

"It's fantasy not reality" may come off as too simplistic to some of you, but again, exploring fantasies in a safe space is something all people do every day.
And not every fantasy, believe it or not, is a gateway to becoming a psychotic murder in the waiting.
 
Because voyeurism is not healthy sexuality, nor is harassment, molestation, or rape.

All of these are existing fantasies that are consensually role-played by couples every day. You're being very judgemental here. Sexuality is incredibly complex.

Doesn't change the fact that going "I'll give up my toy, when they give up theirs!" is a stupid way to go about this whole discussion.
It's no use further going down the "us v them" rabbit hole.

Sure I agree. I say everybody should have all the toys they want
 

casiopao

Member
Yeah this is an age old question about free speech. My position has been stated. I can respect yours (even though I disagree).

No problemo. I don't have any problem but i can see why others had. We don't need to agree each other here as long as we honor each other opinion here.^^
 

Dremark

Banned
But this is made for (heterosexual) men. Why does it matter how women experience it?

I don't want to speak for women, but there probably should be more and better suited pornographic content for them. But that has nothing to do with DOAX3 existing.

No one would put a woman in a bikini that you can grope into Assassins Creed. That would be wrong on so many levels. We're talking about something completely different here though.

GTA 5 has topless strippers you touch in a mini game, I don't even recall that aspect of the game being controversial.
 

UrbanRats

Member
It sure is, it has a singular purpose for a simple reason. But if you're willing to twist it to anything else, it becomes a problem.

I'm having trouble understanding what you mean here.
This game is (in my eyes at least) softcore porn masquerading as a videogame.
Porn is by definition voyeuristic, so this game is voyeuristic.

Sorry if possible double post, but...

I'm arguing against someone who is defending the portrayal of sexual molestation in a video game.
I see.
Well as long as you think sites like Kink should also close down, at least you're consistent, though i don't agree that is that simple to examine people's fantasies and their impact on their lives (since such fantasies are very common).
 

Dremark

Banned
I'm having trouble understanding what you mean here.
This game is (in my eyes at least) softcore porn masquerading as a videogame.
Porn is by definition voyeuristic, so this game is voyeuristic.

It's still a videogame regardless of if you want to try and classify it as something else.
 

Hermii

Member
It sure is, it has a singular purpose for a simple reason. But if you're willing to twist it to anything else, it becomes a problem.

What does this have to do with DOAX?

Watch one promotional material of it, and you know its porn. Its not trying to be anything else.
 
Edit: ^^ See post below ^^

I'm having trouble understanding what you mean here.
This game is (in my eyes at least) softcore porn masquerading as a videogame.
Porn is by definition voyeuristic, so this game is voyeuristic.

If the portrayal of women protesting against forced touch get you hard....
 

UrbanRats

Member
It's still a videogame regardless of if you want to try and classify it as something else.

I don't know what that means.
Is the problem that is coming out on console, or that porn can never be interactive? To me this is a porn game, which is not unlike a porn movie with some minimal interaction.

If the portrayal of women protesting against forced touch get you hard....
See my other post.
If BDSM role play (maledom or femdom) disgusts you, that's understandable, pretending that those who do engage in it are wanna be rapists, is misguided though.
 
Top Bottom