• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

No Mafia III Review Copies Ahead of Launch

A

ascully

Member
JaseC said:
Generally the day of release. CD Keys isn't affiliated with publishers; it has to wait for the physical stock to arrive and scan or otherwise document the keys.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jase I couldn't resist the $29 dollar pricing I guess I will have to wait.
 
thatJohann

thatJohann

Member
So, what's the deal with Mafia III on xbox one? i haven't seen a single video, or impressions of the Xbox One version. Worrisome.
 
D

Deleted member 471617

Unconfirmed Member
The majority of reviewers get flown out to play and preview the game. You can take what they all say with a grain of salt but that also applies to reviewers who don't take those trips yet get the game for free to review.

Personally, im more interested in what the video is showing as opposed to the person talking about it. Open World Games isn't any different than all the rest. I also think that it has more to do with the game itself.

Look at MGSV. Reviewers were all in a review boot camp via Konami. Game gets 9-10's pretty much across the board, wasn't completed by the majority or the chicken hat was used to breeze through the game. Don't remember seeing anyone bitching about that simply because it was MGSV and it was Kojima so even from those who are waiting for reviews, being objective and critical doesn't exactly exist.

In summary, if it's a game you're hyped for, you'll be okay with what is said by all of these people if what's being said is positive. If it's negative, they get bashed. If it's a game that you're not hyped for then reverse what I just said in regards to positive and negative.
 
styl3s

styl3s

Member
finalflame said:
Of course they will not tell you or even imply to pad reviews. That would be blatant. Why do you think they fly people like you out to fancy events and put you up in hotels when they could just as well send you a copy in the mail and call it a day? There is a vested interest in your review being as good as possible, and to think doing these things has no impact on your objective scoring of a game is absurd.

Publishers/game companies do this for a reason, and it's not just because they want to be nice to you gratuitously.
Click to expand...
If that is their ploys why do i continue to get invited? It's never effected any of my reviews and in fact i still to this day get invited to a certain companies showing even though i have written multiple negative reviews. Why waste their time and money on me knowing it never sways me?

I'm not gonna sit here and say that no one gets swayed in a certain direction but this fucking blanket statement of journalist are corrupt is absurd, stupid and maddening. I have been doing this for a decade and have never done anything to break my integrity when i get these fancy press kits i turn around and give them away i don't want that stuff my job is to go to an event, play the game, write down my impressions and report on it and when i get a game in the mail my job is to play it and review objectively and that's what i do. I do my job and i do it well and people saying they can't trust me because i had a free beer or a hotel room pisses me off.
 
K

Kyrios

Member
thatJohann said:
So, what's the deal with Mafia III on xbox one? i haven't seen a single video, or impressions of the Xbox One version. Worrisome.
Click to expand...

I watched an hour long gameplay video on YouTube and it was the Xbox One version. Don't have the link though sadly.

As for what I saw the game has great lighting and solid frames but the on-foot movement seemed janky (driving around looked perfectly fine) and the enemy AI was pretty bad.
 
O

orthodoxy1095

Banned
daniel77733 said:
The majority of reviewers get flown out to play and preview the game. You can take what they all say with a grain of salt but that also applies to reviewers who don't take those trips yet get the game for free to review.

Personally, im more interested in what the video is showing as opposed to the person talking about it. Open World Games isn't any different than all the rest. I also think that it has more to do with the game itself.

Look at MGSV. Reviewers were all in a review boot camp via Konami. Game gets 9-10's pretty much across the board, wasn't completed by the majority or the chicken hat was used to breeze through the game. Don't remember seeing anyone bitching about that simply because it was MGSV and it was Kojima so even from those who are waiting for reviews, being objective and critical doesn't exactly exist.

In summary, if it's a game you're hyped for, you'll be okay with what is said by all of these people if what's being said is positive. If it's negative, they get bashed. If it's a game that you're not hyped for then reverse what I just said in regards to positive and negative.
Click to expand...
I distinctly bitched about this very game, many times, both at the time the reviews came out and afterwards.

Also, I'd love to see your numbers on "the majority."
styl3s said:
If that is their ploys why do i continue to get invited? It's never effected any of my reviews and in fact i still to this day get invited to a certain companies showing even though i have written multiple negative reviews. Why waste their time and money on me knowing it never sways me?
Click to expand...
Why exactly do you think they're flying you out there then, if not to try to sway you and have some kind of psychological impact? Because they're your buddies or something?
 
thatJohann

thatJohann

Member
Kyrios said:
I watched an hour long gameplay video on YouTube and it was the Xbox One version. Don't have the link though sadly.

As for what I saw the game has great lighting and solid frames but the on-foot movement seemed janky (driving around looked perfectly fine) and the enemy AI was pretty bad.
Click to expand...

Gotcha thanks, I am more concerned about the gameplay than the graphics (as long as it runs smoothly even if it's 720p).

There were some tweets on this thread some pages ago about a French dude saying the game ran poorly on PS4 so it worries me about the Xbox One version
 
K

Kyrios

Member
thatJohann said:
Gotcha thanks, I am more concerned about the gameplay than the graphics (as long as it runs smoothly even if it's 720p).

There were some tweets on this thread some pages ago about a French dude saying the game ran poorly on PS4 so it worries me about the Xbox One version
Click to expand...

Ironically I haven't seen PS4 gameplay even though that's the system I own lol

But yeah from the Xbox One gameplay I saw didn't have any noticable performance issues, at least not to me. Stealth takedowns look fun and the gunplay I saw was solid as well. But like I said the AI was kinda dumb. Like kill a dude in a doorway and the enemy inside the room doesn't react lol
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
orthodoxy1095 said:
Oh so it's just part of the inauthentic hype machine process of the video game industry. Got you.

That's so much better.
Click to expand...
I mean it's a preview video, literally nothing is stopping you from waiting for reviews if you're so apprehensive about any preview ever, (except for the games you're hyped for).

joms5 said:
Fine preview. Opinion still stands. Preview is simply a review without a score attached. What they want is positive coverage.
Click to expand...
The impressions are the same as other impressions so it seems the game might end up being good?

Comrade Crunch said:
I didn't realize people already had rose colored glasses regarding last gen.
Click to expand...
Remember two years ago people were saying AC:Unity looks like a last gen game, no better than AC4, and my personal favorite bit of godawful hyperbole, like a mobile game.
 
B

Budi

Member
daniel77733 said:
Look at MGSV. Reviewers were all in a review boot camp via Konami. Game gets 9-10's pretty much across the board, wasn't completed by the majority or the chicken hat was used to breeze through the game. Don't remember seeing anyone bitching about that simply because it was MGSV and it was Kojima so even from those who are waiting for reviews, being objective and critical doesn't exactly exist.
Click to expand...

There was a thread complaining about it even of GAF. Though many of the answers were "it happens all the time". And it does. I'm wondering where you get that majority didn't complete the game or they used the chicken hat. Or are you just making that up to prove a point? And so what if they used the chicken hat, if they wouldn't see the game through without it, isn't it better that they use it? Also game critics don't need to be excellent in all games to write competent reviews. There's much more important things than that. Also it's not like Phantom Pain scoring 9 and above would be somehow very wrong. Also a reviewer who was in the event said it more likely lessened their enjoyment of the game, comparing to playing at home more at your own pace.
 
finalflame

finalflame

Member
styl3s said:
If that is their ploys why do i continue to get invited? It's never effected any of my reviews and in fact i still to this day get invited to a certain companies showing even though i have written multiple negative reviews. Why waste their time and money on me knowing it never sways me?

I'm not gonna sit here and say that no one gets swayed in a certain direction but this fucking blanket statement of journalist are corrupt is absurd, stupid and maddening. I have been doing this for a decade and have never done anything to break my integrity when i get these fancy press kits i turn around and give them away i don't want that stuff my job is to go to an event, play the game, write down my impressions and report on it and when i get a game in the mail my job is to play it and review objectively and that's what i do. I do my job and i do it well and people saying they can't trust me because i had a free beer or a hotel room pisses me off.
Click to expand...

To be clear: I never said you were corrupt or being personally swayed. It's quite possible, likely, even, that you have strong ethics and are mindful not to let your opinion be consciously changed based on the niceties the publisher/developer are offering. It still doesn't mean subconsciously the experience won't bias your review. We're all susceptible to casual and daily biases, and this is no exception.

However, the reason publishers spend a ton of money on these things is at the hope that it will make their review scores are as good as possible. Otherwise they have 0 incentive to spend all the money they do on flying out journalists to these types of things. Also, of course they are not going to stop inviting you if your scores aren't good, because that would, again, be obvious and blatant. Instead they'll just cast a wide net and hope for as much of a payoff as possible from their efforts.

Again, none of this is meant to personally offend. It would just be naive to think game companies do this for journalists/reviewers just to be nice, and not because they think it maximizes their chances at a good review score. If they wanted to be nice, why not just pick random, non-influential fans of the game and fly them out?
 
J

joms5

Member
daniel77733 said:
In summary, if it's a game you're hyped for, you'll be okay with what is said by all of these people if what's being said is positive. If it's negative, they get bashed. If it's a game that you're not hyped for then reverse what I just said in regards to positive and negative.
Click to expand...

If that's really how people behave then they're morons. All I ever want is for reviewers to be comprehensive and honest in their analysis of a game. The other thing you have to consider is that what some people hate, others may like. So you can't just take what some people say at face value. You need to listen to what they are saying and make your decision based on what "they" have enjoyed or disliked about the game.

Crossing Eden said:
The impressions are the same as other impressions so it seems the game might end up being good?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Sorry.

But I hope this game ends up being good. There's no reason why anyone should be happy when a game turns out bad.

As someone who loved Mafia (PC) and really enjoyed Mafia 2, I want nothing more than to be satisfied by Mafia 3. I can't say I know too much about the game, never like knowing too much before playing a game, but from what I have seen i'm pretty impressed. I just worry about how well it will stick to the conventions that have made the Mafia series stand out.
 
O

orthodoxy1095

Banned
finalflame said:
To be clear: I never said you were corrupt or being personally swayed. It's quite possible, likely, even, that you have strong ethics and are mindful not to let your opinion be consciously changed based on the niceties the publisher/developer are offering. It still doesn't mean subconsciously the experience won't bias your review. We're all susceptible to casual and daily biases, and this is no exception.

However, the reason publishers spend a ton of money on these things is at the hope that it will make their review scores are as good as possible. Otherwise they have 0 incentive to spend all the money they do on flying out journalists to these types of things. Also, of course they are not going to stop inviting you if your scores aren't good, because that would, again, be obvious and blatant. Instead they'll just cast a wide net and hope for as much of a payoff as possible from their efforts.

Again, none of this is meant to personally offend. It would just be naive to think game companies do this for journalists/reviewers just to be nice, and not because they think it maximizes their chances at a good review score. If they wanted to be nice, why not just pick random, non-influential fans of the game and fly them out?
Click to expand...
Ding ding ding ding ding.
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
orthodoxy1095 said:
Even with games I'm "hyped" for, I don't rely on or trust any previews you goon.
Click to expand...
The bolded is unwarranted. If you're so distrustful of previews in anyway shape or form then I don't know what incentive you have to follow gaming press at all.

finalflame said:
To be clear: I never said you were corrupt or being personally swayed. It's quite possible, likely, even, that you have strong ethics and are mindful not to let your opinion be consciously changed based on the niceties the publisher/developer are offering. It still doesn't mean subconsciously the experience won't bias your review. We're all susceptible to casual and daily biases, and this is no exception.

However, the reason publishers spend a ton of money on these things is at the hope that it will make their review scores are as good as possible. Otherwise they have 0 incentive to spend all the money they do on flying out journalists to these types of things. Also, of course they are not going to stop inviting you if your scores aren't good, because that would, again, be obvious and blatant. Instead they'll just cast a wide net and hope for as much of a payoff as possible from their efforts.

Again, none of this is meant to personally offend. It would just be naive to think game companies do this for journalists/reviewers just to be nice, and not because they think it maximizes their chances at a good review score. If they wanted to be nice, why not just pick random, non-influential fans of the game and fly them out?
Click to expand...
A MAJOR flaw in your assumption is that you assume that the person who gets flown out to preview events is also the same person who handles the review of the final game, in the vast majority of instances, (in fact i'm struggling to think of one where this isn't the case), the reviewer is a completely different person than the person who wrote the preview. Another factor, a lot of the purpose behind these events is getting coverage of the game out there. Sorta the reason why it's referred to as an "event."
 
O

orthodoxy1095

Banned
Crossing Eden said:
The bolded is unwarranted. If you're so distrustful of previews in anyway shape or form then I don't know what incentive you have to follow gaming press at all.
Click to expand...
For the reason you outline below: previews are fairly often written by someone different than the final reviewer. They're part of the absurd hype-machine behind games and why you see ridiculous previews touting games like NMS and Evolve as the Second Coming of Christ, only to review with the potency of a fart in the wind. I can easily throw most previews in the garbage and then see what I think of the final reviewer's writeup.
 
E

Elios83

Member
heringer said:
I'm thankfull there are some jaded and cynical people to counter balance the hype culture surrounding most AAA titles these days. You don't want every discussion to be a circle jerking.
Click to expand...

Fair enough but you don't want every discussion to be turned into some negativity crusade as well with people wishing things to fail or having their minds totally set on something without evidence just because they're personally bothered with something. This is happening with many games unfortunately.

joms5 said:
You said it.

And people need to stop thinking that being skeptical is "being negative". It's being a conscious consumer. It's taking everything a publisher says with a grain of salt because you haven't got your hands on the game itself.

Remember No Man's Sky? Remember Alien Colonial Marines? Remember Spore?

There's nothing wrong with questioning what a publisher, developer or even reviewer says. It's healthy.
Click to expand...

If you are skeptical and you don't want to buy a game before there are many reviews and impressions available to read, that's pretty legit (although personally I don't want reviews to tell me what I have to buy).
The problem is when you have already decided that this or that game sucks before it is released, you make a big fuss about pre-launch reviews and then when reviews appears and are positive you discount them stating that reviewers are bribed anyway LOL.
 
G

Golden_Pigeon

Banned
Mercador said:
Lolwut?

Best gaming website to trash games, right...
Click to expand...

I don't think they trash voluntarily games, they just have a harder standard and i tend to agree with them. When they say a game is really good, it's almost everytime really good to me :p

Anyway what website do you see as more reliable in french ?

Edit : I am not a blind follower of everything Gamekult say, i totally rejected the tweet assumption since we saw gameplay video on PS4.
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
theonerayman said:
Nothing about this game looks like a PS3 game. i really do think people forget what MOST PS360 games looked like. I just watched a refresher for Gears 3 to get ready for 4 and it still looks pretty good but it's rough compared to most modern titles (as it should, it's like 5 years old)
Click to expand...
I mean I can't even think of a game last gen with facial animation this good, straight up magic the way the faces realistically contort in this game, (eyes are slightly dead though outside of closeups). Best facial animation in an open world game since AC:Unity imho.

orthodoxy1095 said:
For the reason you outline below: previews are fairly often written by someone different than the final reviewer. They're part of the absurd hype-machine behind games and why you see ridiculous previews touting games like NMS and Evolve as the Second Coming of Christ, only to review with the potency of a fart in the wind. I can easily throw most previews in the garbage and then see what I think of the final reviewer's writeup.
Click to expand...
There are also many examples of games that had good previews and then released to great reviews as well, Evolve and NMS are outliers in this regard hence the reason why they're so notable. I doubt most people read as many previews as they can, (or should), as pretending that every preview for any triple A game ever has zero criticisms, (or too little based on some imaginary metric), is solely positive really tells me that you don't read enough previews and instead would rather lazily make blanket statements about the gaming press.
 
admartian

admartian

Member
Elios83 said:
In my opinion and I'm talking in general here, not to you in particular, the problem is that some people really want to be negative at all costs these days and this is happening with many games ruining the discussions around these games.
Click to expand...

I've thought this about the vast majority of gamers on the internet (at least the vocal ones) for years now.

If it's not folders on PS4, it's a UI update on XB1, if it's not that it's not being refunded a game after playing 50+ hours on steam, if it's not these it's 50 million other fucking things.

Sometimes, we're (gamers in general) are just miserable to be miserable and can't just let things go.
 
admartian

admartian

Member
heringer said:
I'm thankfull there are some jaded and cynical people to counter balance the hype culture surrounding most AAA titles these days. You don't want every discussion to be a circle jerking.
Click to expand...

Not his point though I think - it's not about having to be positive all the time either. It's just not complaining or notlooking to complain about another thing(s).
 
M

Mr. Tibbs

Member
Ice Cube's behind the music for tomorrow's launch trailer.

A lot of team members at Hangar 13 worked on Star Wars 1313, a project which composer Jesse Harlin reminisced about in a PC Gamer feature on Mafia 3:

"That was really hard," admits Harlin. "I didn’t know for a fact that the game was cancelled until the day the company shut down. While we had a bad feeling the company was going to close, we didn’t have any advanced actual confirmed warning. In fact it was the opposite." In early 2013, office murmurs and hearsay prompted LucasArts employees to question their place in the studio. GDC was fast approaching, which would present ample opportunity to seek new employment, however Harlin et al were told not to worry. A month later, Harlin tells me, everybody was let go.

"That was a real crushing blow for a lot of reasons. 1313 was really shaping up to be something special," he says. "The team loved what we were doing and we were experimenting a lot. It’s funny because it’s becoming this sort of mythical game. We were making a game about being inside Coruscant where people hadn’t seen before. I was getting to do a lot of stuff with the music that I hadn’t had an opportunity to do before too—I was creating music for street performers who would play in back alleys, there were Star Wars dance clubs that you couldn’t even go into but I was having to think: what does an alien dance club sound like?"
Click to expand...

The Mafia 3 soundtrack is SO good!
As a war veteran, Lincoln's theme music has a flavour of Vietnam about it too, with authentic Vietnamese instruments used in certain set pieces. "When I first started on Mafia 3, I thought this was going to be amazing, to do something so radically different, and I love working on different stuff," explains Harlin. "The most transferable thing between it and Star Wars is that it needs to be a thematic score, which is what Star Wars does so well. Every character has a theme and you can tell what’s going on on-screen by listening to the music and the music will telegraph to you this interplay of character themes that helps tell the story.

"Hangar 13’s creative director, Hayden Blackman, wanted the exact same thing to be happening in Mafia 3—he wanted a thematic score where all of the characters were represented by themes. I took it a little further so every character is also represented by their own type of string instrument that’s probably one of those super nuanced composer things that no one is going to pick on. I massively over-think things like that."

Burke is a slightly unhinged Irishman who's tied to a 12-string guitar, for example, while Vito's melodic moniker is a mandolin—an obvious throwback to his Mafia 2 lineage. "This is what 2K does so well with character development and the writing and the interplay of these personalities," adds Harlin. "I think it would be a disservice to not try and do the same thing with the music for each character, and develop each character’s music as ritually as I could. I think it works well."
Click to expand...
 
N

Nzyme32

Member
Mr. Tibbs said:
Ice Cube's behind the music for tomorrow's launch trailer.

A lot of team members at Hangar 13 worked on Star Wars 1313, a project which composer Jesse Harlin reminisced about in a PC Gamer feature on Mafia 3:


The Mafia 3 soundtrack is SO good!
Click to expand...

Cube still got it. Surprisingly better than I thought when I read it. Also the Mafia 3 soundtrack is as expected, both the score and selection of songs are living up to the prior, fitting for the time and the content of the game (at least that is known and in terms of era). Things seem to be shaping up well!
 
O

orthodoxy1095

Banned
Crossing Eden said:
There are also many examples of games that had good previews and then released to great reviews as well, Evolve and NMS are outliers in this regard hence the reason why they're so notable. I doubt most people read as many previews as they can, (or should), as pretending that every preview for any triple A game ever has zero criticisms, (or too little based on some imaginary metric), is solely positive really tells me that you don't read enough previews and instead would rather lazily make blanket statements about the gaming press.
Click to expand...
And I'm not sure that you read enough previews if you're unwilling to admit that they're part of the industry machine that is largely not beneficial to consumers. Sure, many games have great previews and end up great games. And many have bad previews and end up great. And many have bad previews and end up bad. The point was that there's no reason to treat them as definitive rulings on anything given A) how much games change in development and B) how much corporate wants to utilize their wining and dining to have some kind of psychological effect on journalists.

But then again, I'm not surprised you're defending corporate activities even though we've clearly had other industry professionals admit this stuff.
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
orthodoxy1095 said:
And I'm not sure that you read enough previews if you're unwilling to admit that they're part of the industry machine that is largely not beneficial to consumers. Sure, many games have great previews and end up great games. And many have bad previews and end up great. And many have bad previews and end up bad. The point was that there's no reason to treat them as definitive rulings on anything given A) how much games change in development and B) how much corporate wants to utilize their wining and dining to have some kind of psychological effect on journalists.

But then again, I'm not surprised you're defending corporate activities even though we've clearly had other industry professionals admit this stuff.
Click to expand...
How is finding out info about how a game works not beneficial to the consumer? How having tons of unscripted videos of a game released, (if you're so afraid of the big bad "hype machine" just mute the video and watch the footage), not beneficial for a consumer? Does every preview or video have to have the cynicism of a zero punctuation review for you to take it seriously or what? And that video was released almost a month ago, what he was showing was damn near the final build.
 
O

orthodoxy1095

Banned
Crossing Eden said:
How is finding out info about how a game works not beneficial to the consumer? How having tons of unscripted videos of a game released, (if you're so afraid of the big bad "hype machine" just mute the video and watch the footage), not beneficial for a consumer? Does every preview or video have to have the cynicism of a zero punctuation review for you to take it seriously or what? And that video was released almost a month ago, what he was showing was damn near the final build.
Click to expand...
I don't know. Maybe you can read some headlines and read some hyperbolic content to think about how previews negatively contribute to the overabundant hype culture that is a cancer on this industry? And maybe some basic psychology could help us figure out how all-expense paid trips to developer events might create skewed impressions of games?
Reviews only have an impact if they're 90+, and then the impact is huge.

We don't take steps to get good reviews, we take steps to make good games. Then we invite reviews to fancy promotional events to warm them up on the game before they play it on their own.

I think of our launch parties as warm-up comedians for the main act. Warm-up comedians are there to get you laughing and excited, so when the star performer walks onstage, you're primed and ready to enjoy the set. Our promo events are the same way. We bring out media to a fancy location, wine and dine them, show them the best parts of our game, and generally build anticipation for release. The theory is that, once they get the game and play it privately, they already have a positive association with the game, which may influence their final score.
Click to expand...
But nah. Must be that I'm wrong. Previews are great. Keep on wining and dining those reviewers slick.
 
D

dex3108

Member
Can we stop arguing about some YouTuber and review procedures and hear some impressions from people who played the game? :D
 
N

Nzyme32

Member
dex3108 said:
Can we stop arguing about some YouTuber and review procedures and hear some impressions from people who played the game? :D
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the thread title is "No Mafia III Review Copies Ahead of Launch". Pretty sure that is the expected outcome for the thread. Not actually seen a thread this new info and streams

Lime said:
Fuck Lucasarts - what a shitty employer.

This is almost new thread worthy
Click to expand...

They are likely to have had nothing to do with - talk to Disney who made the decision and likely how it was to be carried out
 
G

Golden_Pigeon

Banned
dex3108 said:
Can we stop arguing about some YouTuber and review procedures and hear some impressions from people who played the game? :D
Click to expand...

On french forums some people have it and say that the game is "good" and especially praising the narration and story. But they have critics about graphismes, driving and IA.
They are hoping for a good pc port.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Tomb Raider I-III Remastered | Review Thread
Analysis Review
17
3K
winjer replied
Paul Tassi — Positive ‘Suicide Squad: Kill The Justice League’ User Reviews Split Unusually From Critics
Opinion Analysis
44
2K
poppabk replied
The Call of Duty MW3 multiplayer launch is met with negative Steam reviews and a player count far below that of Modern Warfare 2 at launch
News 2
77
6K
Bernoulli replied
Botany Manor | Review Thread
Analysis Review
9
1K
Magic Carpet replied
Paradox Interactive says “we have areas where we need to do better” after reporting $44 million in Q1 revenue
Sales-Age
6
567
AzekZero replied
Top Bottom