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The influx of moderates telling us to tolerate sexism, xenophobia, and racism all day

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How do you feel about what is often characterized as the 'bootstraps' argument, from US conservatives? Do you see any similarities between that and what you are describing?

There's a clear tone of bigotry that pervades the Republican message. Republicans strictly save the language to employ ethnocentrism. If you're willing to say that the entire rust belt is a homogenous, ethnic group, with distinct culture, I'll bite the bullet.
 

jdstorm

Banned
I get the appeal of the message, but what quantifiable guarantee that there will a restoration of economy in the area? What actual piece of legal document shows the actual path? And to think that you were called racist, so you decide to vote against minority interest, isn't the prettiest picture.

In an us vs them debate people do stupid things all the time. People get defensive when they feel like they are being attacked, and they lash out.

Trump came to people with a message of
1 i understand that your life sucks
2. Here is someone/something to blame for your problems and
3. If elected i will fix it.

Hillary said vote for me because im qualified.
Yet her qualifications included giving bilions of dollars to bankers, while the rust belt was losing their homes. People in these places are working crappy jobs to get buy. But they see no future. These people cant move to America to have a better life, because they are in america and their lives are tough right now despite doing everything they believed was the right thing.
 

etrain911

Member
I get the appeal of the message, but what quantifiable guarantee that there will a restoration of economy in the area? What actual piece of legal document shows the actual path? And to think that you were called racist, so you decide to vote against minority interest, isn't the prettiest picture.

People felt ignored. People who used to have higher quality of life, jobs that could give them and their families insurance and food on the table, one candidate came in and sold them a lie, the other just took them for granted. When you have a wolf in sheep's clothing in the pasture you don't leave him alone untouched. Remember at one of the debates when Trump asked why Clinton wasn't out visiting the people and she responded with the fact that she actually prepared for this. Remember laughing at him for it? I do. It turns out it was a mistake. People are not computers and do not require logical proofs and quantifiable guarantees. They just require a sympathetic ear and a silver tongue and that's what got them.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
There's a clear tone of bigotry that pervades the Republican message. Republicans strictly save the language to employ ethnocentrism. If you're willing to say that the entire rust belt is a homogenous, ethnic group, with distinct culture, I'll bite the bullet.

I guess I don't think the problem with bootstraps is the bigotry - that's a separate problem that is a problem when tonally applied to basically anything. The core ideas of the bootstrap argument - that people who are suffering just aren't working hard enough, is broken - wouldn't you agree? Or is your only issue with the bootstrap argument that it is often applied with a bigoted tone?
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
NHXp4.gif


Basically this. The Republicans want compromises when it suits them, not actual compromises. If anyone really thinks they will work across the aisle is fooling themselves.
Adding this image to the OP.
 
In an us vs them debate people do stupid things all the time. People get defensive when they feel like they are being attacked, and they lash out.

Trump came to people with a message of
1 i understand that your life sucks
2. Here is someone/something to blame for your problems and
3. If elected i will fix it.

Hillary said vote for me because im qualified.
Yet her qualifications included giving bilions of dollars to bankers, while the rust belt was losing their homes. People in these places are working crappy jobs to get buy. But they see no future. These people cant move to America to have a better life, because they are in america and their lives are tough right now despite doing everything they believed was the right thing.

I mean, Trump is just as entangled with Wall Street banker types. Clinton said 1 and 3 from your list as well, although perhaps not in as easy to understand terms. The problem was she didn't provide an easy scapegoat like Trump (minorities) and Sanders (big banks) to blame everything on.
 
In an us vs them debate people do stupid things all the time. People get defensive when they feel like they are being attacked, and they lash out.

Trump came to people with a message of
1 i understand that your life sucks
2. Here is someone/something to blame for your problems and
3. If elected i will fix it.

Hillary said vote for me because im qualified.
Yet her qualifications included giving bilions of dollars to bankers, while the rust belt was losing their homes. People in these places are working crappy jobs to get buy. But they see no future. These people cant move to America to have a better life, because they are in america and their lives are tough right now despite doing everything they believed was the right thing.

And how do you think Trump will bring jobs back. From taking corporations to task, and forcing them to relocate jobs to your area? You're talking about a Republican president. And to think that someone with no government experience, who's essential born-with-silver-spoon personified, one who is a blatant ethnocentrist, sexist, and habitual to abuse charities to push his brand, is somehow more qualitative of government leadership? There's more to the country than where you live. And it's not like the rest of the population is born into a trust fund. It's frightening to stare down the precipice, but nothing feels better opening your wings.
 
I guess I don't think the problem with bootstraps is the bigotry - that's a separate problem that is a problem when tonally applied to basically anything. The core ideas of the bootstrap argument - that people who are suffering just aren't working hard enough, is broken - wouldn't you agree? Or is your only issue with the bootstrap argument that it is often applied with a bigoted tone?

This is the west. And speaking of America, not a recessive economy. Your parent can hold the bike all you want, but have to at least get on it and pedal.
 

Apathy

Member
So essentially you are saying to a typical "Rust Belter" be like me. Your life as you know it is over. Adapt or die.

While the candidate they voted for told them that he was there for them and he was going to make their lives better.

Can you honestly say that the first option is appealing for that group. The problem s both sides created an us vs them arguement and people sided with the group that met their needs. The group that wasnt calling them racist because of the apperance they were born with. The group that didnt bully and belittle their beliefs.

In an us vs them debate people do stupid things all the time. People get defensive when they feel like they are being attacked, and they lash out.

Trump came to people with a message of
1 i understand that your life sucks
2. Here is someone/something to blame for your problems and
3. If elected i will fix it.

Hillary said vote for me because im qualified.
Yet her qualifications included giving bilions of dollars to bankers, while the rust belt was losing their homes. People in these places are working crappy jobs to get buy. But they see no future. These people cant move to America to have a better life, because they are in america and their lives are tough right now despite doing everything they believed was the right thing.

I know you can't reply but if anyone wants to take up the mantle for him you can reply if you wish.

We keep going in circles. Trump lied. He lied right in the faces of all the rust belt, all the rural citizens. It's not magic, it's not even hard to understand, you don't even need a university education to get it. These jobs can't come back. To believe something so blatant and still go "well every other time someone has told us this it didn't happen, but for sure this time it has to be true".

His little 3 step process you laid out is exactly the crux of the problem. "hey, i will stop all those brown people and asians from taking your jobs" is more than just them wanting a better way of life, they voted it because of xenophobia of the other, racism and just plain bigotry, and then people come and tell everyone else to just be nice to them, they only voted for trump for the jobs part.

And yes, sometimes moving to a city does have to be the answer. You can't just sit around and hope economic opportunities come to you. Sometimes you have to go to them. I know it sounds like bootstrap talk, but there are a finite amount of business big enough to provide jobs, not every small rural town is getting one. That's not the world we live in anymore.

Instead of jobs hes going to bring about huge changes to social safety nets, the same ones that help these people. Rural america is going to suffer hard under trump, and they will be worse off in 4 years because of him rather than if they had voted for the dems. The truth hurts, but lying to them, that's hurtful and dishonest.
 

digdug2k

Member
In an us vs them debate people do stupid things all the time. People get defensive when they feel like they are being attacked, and they lash out.

Trump came to people with a message of
1 i understand that your life sucks
2. Here is someone/something to blame for your problems and
3. If elected i will fix it.

Hillary said vote for me because im qualified.
Yet her qualifications included giving bilions of dollars to bankers, while the rust belt was losing their homes. People in these places are working crappy jobs to get buy. But they see no future. These people cant move to America to have a better life, because they are in america and their lives are tough right now despite doing everything they believed was the right thing.
Hillary said those same things and had actual plans to back them. They stuck their fingers in their ears because "corrupt!".

I realize that after a decade of trying to see the best in GOP voters I've just given up at this point. "They just want some economic relief" is a lie. Its being fed to you to make you think "Oh, if I'm just nice to them, maybe we can work together." We did that. We played that game. They shoved a knife into our ass. They just spent literally an entire year insulting and demonizing you publicly only 1 day later to say "Hey, we need unity now. Lets be friends.". Its bullshit. They're playing you. They just don't want you mucking up their plans for the next four years with your "libtard" ideas.

Most of them are really nice people. They'll sit and chat kindly with you in a coffee shop. Show you pictures of their kids. Invite you over for dinner. And if you ask, they'll happily tell you its the fucking Mexicans fault they all lost their jobs and they can't wait to send every last one of those fuckers back across the border.
 

numble

Member
I know you can't reply but if anyone wants to take up the mantle for him you can reply if you wish.

We keep going in circles. Trump lied. He lied right in the faces of all the rust belt, all the rural citizens. It's not magic, it's not even hard to understand, you don't even need a university education to get it. These jobs can't come back. To believe something so blatant and still go "well every other time someone has told us this it didn't happen, but for sure this time it has to be true".

His little 3 step process you laid out is exactly the crux of the problem. "hey, i will stop all those brown people and asians from taking your jobs" is more than just them wanting a better way of life, they voted it because of xenophobia of the other, racism and just plain bigotry, and then people come and tell everyone else to just be nice to them, they only voted for trump for the jobs part.

And yes, sometimes moving to a city does have to be the answer. You can't just sit around and hope economic opportunities come to you. Sometimes you have to go to them. I know it sounds like bootstrap talk, but there are a finite amount of business big enough to provide jobs, not every small rural town is getting one. That's not the world we live in anymore.

Instead of jobs hes going to bring about huge changes to social safety nets, the same ones that help these people. Rural america is going to suffer hard under trump, and they will be worse off in 4 years because of him rather than if they had voted for the dems. The truth hurts, but lying to them, that's hurtful and dishonest.

The issue is that this has previously been a part of the Democratic platform and was part of Obama's appeal to the Rust Belt. Are you saying he was dishonest?

ObamaNAFTA_resize.jpg


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Apathy

Member
The issue is that this has previously been a part of the Democratic platform and was part of Obama's appeal to the Rust Belt. Are you saying he was dishonest?

ObamaNAFTA_resize.jpg


Obama_NAFTA.jpg


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If Obama or the dems actually claimed to bring back jobs then yes it is. It doesn't matter which party does it.
 
The issue is that this has previously been a part of the Democratic platform and was part of Obama's appeal to the Rust Belt. Are you saying he was dishonest?

ObamaNAFTA_resize.jpg


Obama_NAFTA.jpg


aflmccainback.jpg


OutsourcingadMay1.png


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Unfortunately, yes, there is no miracle coming. You've waited with outstretched hands for too long. The vast majority of the populace are nothing more than playing pieces. Politics in the end is a class battle.
 
Note, Trump is the President-elect. You can accept that fact.

What is not up for debate is he needs to be held accountable for that which he said and did during his campaign. You cannot call for "unity" and "moving forward" without any act of contrition. If people have to reach out to the Rust Belt and understand them, then perhaps those in power now need to do the same to minorities.

Otherwise, you are saying minority folk need to take the slaps the President-elect threw in their direction and suck it up.
 

numble

Member
If Obama or the dems actually claimed to bring back jobs then yes it is. It doesn't matter which party does it.

Unfortunately, yes, there is no miracle coming. You've waited with outstretched hands for too long. The vast majority of the populace are nothing more than playing pieces. Politics in the end is a class battle.

Politics are aspirational. There is no realistic chance of gun control legislation or tax increases on the wealthy with the way Congress was setup--is telling supporters that such laws are coming also dishonest?
 
Politics are aspirational. There is no realistic chance of gun control legislation or tax increases on the wealthy with the way Congress was setup--is telling supporters that such laws are coming also dishonest?

Considering the long going tilt for corporations, nothings going to happen to dent the economy over an iota. It's always been a populist game. The fact that the NSA exists should illustrate how engineered our experience is.

Edit: I don't mean to disenfranchise you in a bad way. Real change can happen. But other than some large scale restructuring, the current machine is build to continue.
 

Kenai

Member
Note, Trump is the President-elect. You can accept that fact.

What is not up for debate is he needs to be held accountable for that which he said and did during his campaign. You cannot call for "unity" and "moving forward" without any act of contrition. If people have to reach out to the Rust Belt and understand them, then perhaps those in power now need to do the same to minorities.

Otherwise, you are saying minority folk need to take the slaps the President-elect threw in their direction and suck it up.

I think the unfortunate realization a lot of us came to that night is that only one of these groups actually has to bite this bullet. I mean, it would be pretty damn great if Trump did attempt to apologize with either words or policy or both, or his party did have to reach out to minorities, but after being elected president and having control of the other branches as well in spite of his message and everything he/they has/have done, they really don't have to, do they? Not yet, anyway. Accepting that is...rough.

I have a hard time envisioning Trump being held accountable for any of the things he said in the immediate future, let alone the rest of the Republican party he managed to galvanize around his message. Meanwhile, we (minorites, Dems, whatever applies) have to coddle them. Have to appeal to empathy or reason or logic that may or may not be there.

Maybe one of those rape allegations or university scandal will go through or something? Maybe in 2 years we will see a few seats up for grabs that actually go to Dems? These are big, big maybes.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
Just had a rich white gay 'friend' of mine post about how dumb protests were and how useless they were, and that we were just promoting hate speech, and that reaching across the aisle was more important.

Hope I never run into that fucker in real life again.
 
Just had a rich white gay 'friend' of mine post about how dumb protests were and how useless they were, and that we were just promoting hate speech, and that reaching across the aisle was more important.

Hope I never run into that fucker in real life again.

No one should bitch about protests. It is a democratic tool necessary for the public.
 

Apathy

Member
Politics are aspirational. There is no realistic chance of gun control legislation or tax increases on the wealthy with the way Congress was setup--is telling supporters that such laws are coming also dishonest?

Gun control (note, not restriction) is perfectly possible. Hell, you had the 1994 federal assault weapon ban. New legislation failed because of how much the republicans controlled vs what the dems controlled. If congress and the senate were in control of dems again, of course they could pass gun control legislation again. Hell, the republicans don't even want to give an inch, even after shit like sandy hook.
 
Just had a rich white gay 'friend' of mine post about how dumb protests were and how useless they were, and that we were just promoting hate speech, and that reaching across the aisle was more important.

Hope I never run into that fucker in real life again.
Call them a coward and move on.
 

sa201674

Banned
You know what's sad about all of this? The number of people that's gonna deny all of the hate crimes happening

"Hoax" they say
"All lies" they say
"Biased media" they say
"The protesters are more violent" they say


Of course, some nutjob might fabricate a fake hate crime and spread it online which will only validate the deniers.
 
Instead of reaching out to people who will slap your hand, why not spend the next two years mobilizing the youth vote and the moderate vote and the minority vote - all the people who didn't want to vote for Clinton in large enough numbers, and win back the Senate?

After that find a candidate who will represent the interests of the common people instead of the elite, spend two years mobilizing the vote behind that candidate and win the Presidency.

In order to do that, the Democratic Party needs to be gutted and rebuilt. It can be done but not by empathizing with bigotry.

I think it is a noble thing to do (maybe) but it won't win elections and it won't cause a sea change in the fabric of American society.
 

thefil

Member
If anyone has the energy (totally understand if you don't want to waste it on me), I'd love to hear criticism on my view of something related to the OP. White male Canadian living in the US currently.

First of all, I don't think the groups affected by racism and bigotry in America need to take on the onus of reaching across the aisle. They should focus on doing whatever they need to to share/process their pain and anger and find a way to keep on living in this current reality. Anything they can do on top of that is great, but nobody can demand more of them.

However, I do think that there is a possibility for helping the next election with some empathy and understanding towards a portion of the Trump electorate. People like me, who don't need to devote half our energy to just staying sane day-to-day, should take on this role.

I think it's a good idea for someone like me to engage with the kind of person who voted for Trump "because he'll lower my taxes" and try and have a good faith discussion about why I think that's a catastrophic world-view. And I think you have to empathize with them a little to have that conversation, because they won't be convinced by disdain. Obviously the explicitly, openly hateful people are not going to be the ones who are changed by this, but I guess the optimist in my believes a large part of the electorate are ignorant or have made flaws in their critical thinking/reason.

I guess I hold this belief because I used to be quite conservative/libertarian and learned a lot through good-faith discussions like those. I voted NDP in the last Canadian federal election.

If you disagree or think this is the kind of moderate thinking that is described in the OP, I'd appreciate your criticism. Thanks.
 
i love it when white people tell me how i should tolerate racism and give a platform to horrible views, especially when they will never be affected by these views and i will

Fucked the head of that nail up. It's like complimenting the man on his boots while they are on your neck.

I guess we're supposed to be like Captain America and Bucky in Winter Soldier.
 
We do need to have a real conversation with the Rust Belt voters who normally help form the "blue wall" and really understand why those states turned red WITHOUT VILIFYING THEM (because I want them to come back to the flock). I don't think you can just dismiss what happened in OH, PA, MI, and WI as racism.

But yeah, hell with the people calling for unity, white people saying everything is going to be alright, normalizing bigotry by not challenging it, etc. This election is really scary for everyone who is not a straight white male -- hell *I am one and it's scary to me.*
 
I really have to get over this feeling, but I don't know how...

I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere Illinois. I was eating my lunch in Wendy's lobby today, and it was decently packed. They were all these old men and women. And I totally lumped them all into a group like an asshole...but I just felt so damn uncomfortable in there. Like an alien on another planet. Like I couldn't trust those around me. I kept thinking "you all voted for Trump, didn't you..." And it made my skin crawl, like I needed to get out of there as soon as I could.

Anyone else going through anything like this?
 

thefil

Member
I really have to get over this feeling, but I don't know how...

I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere Illinois. I was eating my lunch in Wendy's lobby today, and it was decently packed. They were all these old men and women. And I totally lumped them all into a group like an asshole...but I just felt so damn uncomfortable in there. Like an alien on another planet. Like I couldn't trust those around me. I kept thinking "you all voted for Trump, didn't you..." And it made my skin crawl, like I needed to get out of there as soon as I could.

Anyone else going through anything like this?

Yes. And I'm white and live in California. Looking around at everyone and wondering "Why don't you look upset? Are you celebrating?"
 
I really have to get over this feeling, but I don't know how...

I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere Illinois. I was eating my lunch in Wendy's lobby today, and it was decently packed. They were all these old men and women. And I totally lumped them all into a group like an asshole...but I just felt so damn uncomfortable in there. Like an alien on another planet. Like I couldn't trust those around me. I kept thinking "you all voted for Trump, didn't you..." And it made my skin crawl, like I needed to get out of there as soon as I could.

Anyone else going through anything like this?

I used to all the time. Still kinda do since I live in Kansas.
 

fester

Banned
I really have to get over this feeling, but I don't know how...

I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere Illinois. I was eating my lunch in Wendy's lobby today, and it was decently packed. They were all these old men and women. And I totally lumped them all into a group like an asshole...but I just felt so damn uncomfortable in there. Like an alien on another planet. Like I couldn't trust those around me. I kept thinking "you all voted for Trump, didn't you..." And it made my skin crawl, like I needed to get out of there as soon as I could.

Anyone else going through anything like this?

Yup. Already started changing my travel plans that involved vacation in North/South Carolina so that I don't spend any time there. I'll be damned if I work my ass off only to turn around and give my money to bigoted assholes. Sucks for the legitimately good people there, but since I can't personally know everyone, my shorthand boycott is all I can do.
 
I think the unfortunate realization a lot of us came to that night is that only one of these groups actually has to bite this bullet. I mean, it would be pretty damn great if Trump did attempt to apologize with either words or policy or both, or his party did have to reach out to minorities, but after being elected president and having control of the other branches as well in spite of his message and everything he/they has/have done, they really don't have to, do they? Not yet, anyway. Accepting that is...rough.

Then there is really no actual unity.

Merely one side willing to give up.
 

QaaQer

Member
They key to progress has always been to keep talking; once communication stops, progress stops. Sure, there are some individual people not worth talking to, but putting 47% of the population in that category is pig headed.
 

QaaQer

Member
Friends. Help me understand the false equivalency here because i think this boils down to quantifiable guarantees. And by the way, I've read first few pages and will get caught up because this topic is important to me to learn more about.

Mental exercise and question, all-in-one, after reading discussions here and elsewhere online

Claim is intention is not needed to define racism, as impact of words or mockery, as we have seen Trump commit this so often, is enough. Going further, if you run a campaign riddled with this behavior, and you vote for Trump, you are complicit for the high probability that he will continue to act in this behavior and possibly assert changes that will negatively impact marginalized groups, thus rendering you a racist.

So counter to this was that Trump's voters do not believe his presidency will , by default, ensure this reality from happening. He has raised his rainbow flag. He has not given any indication he wants to reverse gay marriage etc.

To add to this, people assert calling 60 million white people who vote for him can't be racist. If they are, then those who vote for Hillary , knowing her stance on no-fly zone, would make them warmongers.

Thoughts? I am sure their is a cognitive fallacy here but can't pinpoint my finger on it.

Interesting post.

I'd just add that labeling people in order to discount their POVs helps no one.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
What I'm seeing this as is some "hate the sin, not the sinner" type of thing. That still shouldn't excuse people from consequences though.
 

Kenai

Member
Then there is really no actual unity.

Merely one side willing to give up.

You're right, there's not unity. Not enough to unite the Dems anyway. Not now. The fact of the matter is that the ball is in their court and will continue to be for 2 years at a minimum. Anything Trump might not do, his VP and appointees will. And with that majority, they can (and almost certainly will) pass harmful shit whether we complain or not. We will have to fight that stuff of course, but if we can't win or energize more people over to us by the next round of voting, temporarily or not, we are going to stay losing.
 

numble

Member
Gun control (note, not restriction) is perfectly possible. Hell, you had the 1994 federal assault weapon ban. New legislation failed because of how much the republicans controlled vs what the dems controlled. If congress and the senate were in control of dems again, of course they could pass gun control legislation again. Hell, the republicans don't even want to give an inch, even after shit like sandy hook.
You are being nostalgic for something over 20 years ago. Like Rust Belt voters, right? At least dumping TPP was actually something realistic and in a president's power.
 

MUnited83

For you.
They key to progress has always been to keep talking; once communication stops, progress stops. Sure, there are some individual people not worth talking to, but putting 47% of the population in that category is pig headed.

Trump voters are 19% of the population.
 

Jumplion

Member
It's a complicated thing.

There needs to be unity, at least among the Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, etc... It's going to be a long two to four years, and the longer we spend bickering over what to do, the less time we have to fight back.

I've taken to living to the phrase "Don't assume malice with what could more easily be explained as stupidity," except I adjust it to "Don't assume malice". People aren't stupid, as much as it feels like it sometimes. People aren't born malicious. There's a reason in there somewhere. It's not an easy thing to do sometimes. In fact, it can be really fucking hard. But I find that it's helped me a great deal in dissecting why someone thinks the way the think, says the things they say, and do the things they do.

This whole mess has cinched the idea to me that progressivism/liberalism has failed in properly presenting its ideas to the people that need them most, mainly the poor white person.

Because in the end, you can tell someone all the facts you want; that black people are more likely to be shot, that women make less than men, that LGBTQ people are at a higher risk of suicide. You might not intend to, but to him he hears you dismissing his pain as if it's unimportant.

Because all the facts in the world won't change the very real, very raw *feeling* of being fucked over. Because all the facts in the world won't change the reality that, well, they *are* being fucked over. No matter the cause of these feelings, they are very real.

None of this is to say you should sympathize with the Klansman or that we should put up "both sides" on equal terms when that is clearly not the case in some instances. But don't pity the hillbilly in the countryside. Don't blame the "uneducated/unenlightened whites" or the Baby Boomers, as tempting as it may be. I'm not interested in whether or not that's true because, in the end, this truly is about feelings. Bemoan the fact that we did not reach out to him in time. "I understand why you think this way" is not the same thing as "I understand why you came to think this way". One is surface level, the other goes to that person's history and development as a person.

All of that said, I don't expect minorities to coddle us whities because of our feefees. But I think one of the things that we have failed to do is to reach out to the people who should be fighting with us, and we have failed to realize that we have some one of the best resources to do that, I.E. white guys and allies.

I'm a straight white dude. I'm also Jewish, and while I think people tend to downplay the shit that's thrown at us, in general I've been a pretty privileged person. As a straight white dude, I know how to talk to other straight white dudes. I know what the standard responses are when their privilege is challenged. I'm all for allies learning to listen, learning to hear the voices that need to be heard. But the most valuable thing an ally can, and should, do is to talk to the person he once was. To listen, question their thoughts, and embue empathy into someone who was just like him a few years ago. The guy who said "women havn't done much in history", the guy who talks over everyone else because he feels more special, the guy who says "just follow orders and you'll be fine". Because I was that guy at some point, and I know it's possible to sway the rocks, as firm as they seem.



I dunno. Maybe I'm being too nice or hopeful. Maybe I'm trying to make this all about us whities. I get that. I don't want to dismiss anybody's pain or frustration here, and I'm sorry if this comes off as all hockey or "just play nice" or dismissive. The past few days have given me a lot to think about and time to reflect on myself. I think it's a good thing to do for the next few days before heading back out and picking the pieces up one by one. We'll figure out how to put it all together somehow.
 
Its the biggest L in a year of big Ls (Warriors and Indians). I wouldnt accept the circumstances and move on either. I wouldn't attempt to understand the world I live in and try to coexist.
 

toneroni

Member
I really have to get over this feeling, but I don't know how...

I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere Illinois. I was eating my lunch in Wendy's lobby today, and it was decently packed. They were all these old men and women. And I totally lumped them all into a group like an asshole...but I just felt so damn uncomfortable in there. Like an alien on another planet. Like I couldn't trust those around me. I kept thinking "you all voted for Trump, didn't you..." And it made my skin crawl, like I needed to get out of there as soon as I could.

Anyone else going through anything like this?
Yep, it's not just middle America too. I feel the same way with many folks in NYC. Lots of finance bros and almost all law enforcement ppl I know were pro trump.

On another note - my super liberal friend and Trump hater keeps saying it'll be ok to everyone though but.. he's not a minority.
 

Striek

Member
Note, Trump is the President-elect. You can accept that fact.

What is not up for debate is he needs to be held accountable for that which he said and did during his campaign. You cannot call for "unity" and "moving forward" without any act of contrition. If people have to reach out to the Rust Belt and understand them, then perhaps those in power now need to do the same to minorities.

Otherwise, you are saying minority folk need to take the slaps the President-elect threw in their direction and suck it up.

I think most liberals are looking at this wrong. You don't need to reach out to racists, xenophobes or sexists and unify the whole country to win elections and push a progressive agenda. Forget those people. They are a minority.
But do NOT make the mistake of calling those who voted on an economic basis any of those slurs. It is the rust belt, those struggling with job losses and the growing wage divide who decided the election. No one else.

Also to be clear, it its NOT xenophobic to want to slow immigration to stop wages falling. Its NOT xenophobic to be against free trade agreements that would further ruin your communities, and vote for the candidate who is actually most likely to not adopt disastrous trade policy.

Its a simple fact that voting in your own self-interests and against a more progressive agenda isn't evil or wrong, and you do not have to own every single bit of policy your candidate adopts. The DNC did not offer real solutions - or could not convince the electorate they were sincere -, and Hillary was more likely than Trump to continue to hurt the communities that cost her the election. Calling people who traditionally vote democrat but didn't this time for good reason all these slurs, and pretending its true in spite of no evidence is hurting the party. Has hurt the party. Has hurt progressivism.

In summary: you have to reach out to democrats and potential democrat voters who didn't vote for Hillary this time. They do not have to reciprocate, because they've done nothing wrong. The issue is internal. Democrats lost the election because they couldn't convince democrats to vote for democrats.
 
We lost this election due to the DNC/Clinton being a bad pick. You keep saying that we need to find a way too win them over, but you're not giving any solutions, so until you do I'm going to ignore that suggestion, because I don't think a method of doing so actually exists.

And yes, the fact that the dems have won the popular in every election the past 24 years (counting Gore's re-eletion had he won the first time), shows me that we can win without those voters. What the dems need, is a better pick and to seriously restructure their organize. Trying to cater to idiots/racists is not the way forward. We've been trying to do that relentlessly and it has yet to work. Wasting more time and energy into it is pointless.

This is denial. Winning/losing this election doesn't matter. This is not sports or some for of entertainment. Pinning this on candidate choice neglects the core issue: there is half of America that is totally fine voting for a ticket that is built on racism, sexism, religious intolerance, and a belief that science is bad. Some of these people stand explicitly for these values. Some of them feels like it It shows how sick they are with establishment. Sick of liberals. Sick of the conservative way of life dying a slow and inevitable death only to be reborn into a fascist platform. The only way this shit gets fixed is if you help them fix themselves, and hold them accountable to their beliefs (the modern Democratic party is closer to traditional conservative ideals than liberal). No political candidate is going to fix this for us.

Not addressing those idiots/racists (a lot of them are neither, but it doesn't change that the platform is) is going to result in further drifting to the right. You have to engage these people. You have to listen to them. You have to be willing to show you understand their values better than they do. Read The Conservative Mind. Read The Wealth Of Nations. Read The National Review. Read Breitbart. Read Friedman. Know more about conservatism than they do. Don't start conversations by calling them bigots. They won't respond well, and will even become more radicalized. Don't show your anger when talking with them. They can change. Maybe not all of them, but the majority.

Stop being so cynical. Stop treating people as sub-human even if they hold abhorrent beliefs. That's just as terrible as any other type of bigotry.

I grew up in rural Utah. One of the most conservative places in the nation. I used to be conservative, racist, sexist, and anti-science. I grew. It's not like I magically ditched those things. It took time. It took patience. I am now probably viewed as people who know me as radical leftist (I'm in the corner of liberalism and anarchism on the liberal/conservative anarchism/totalitarianism scale. The place I grew up has the opposite views: totalitarianism and conservatism.). Truth be told, the sexism and racism still feel baked into me somewhere deep down, and it manifests itself in subconscious and non-malevolent ways. What I mean by that is there are stereotypes that still work me over without me realizing it sometimes. Luckily, I can reason and change that behavior if I pay attention. Over time, my views become more nuanced and I get surprised at how I believed things without questioning why I believed them.

I've been shocked as I've managed to have enlightening conversations with old friends and family who still live in my hometown over the last bit. Some are Trump supporters, some McMullin supporters, and some are crazy Stein hippies who are just as, if not more, quacky.

I've seen them be less dogmatic in their beliefs after I showed I could listen, understand their concerns, and argue better points in a way tailored towards them. The self-righteous attitude needs to stop. It's the same dogmatism that liberals preach against.

I haven't conceded my values once in these discussions. I have said they have the right to be frustrated, because they do. Their way of life is dying. They don't see how to reconcile it with grace. So treat them with grace. Not all of them will respond well when you challenge their views, but they will come around if you don't lose your shit. I've seen Breitbart, Infowars posting motherfuckers slowly stop, and challenge themselves. I've seen them increasingly care about civil rights issues, and share that they were wrong. Still haven't a change of heart when it comes to climate change point though.

It's possible. We can't just descend into cynicism though. This task is a brutal undertaking, but doing anything otherwise is irresponsible. I'm not calling for unity. I'm calling for ideological insurgency. Activism wins in democracy. Use it.

I am tempted to link to a bunch of different articles that show how complicated this loss is, but I will refrain. Everyone knows how to google. I would highly suggest listening to David Foster Wallace's Kenyon College Commencement Speech if you haven't. It is about how we live our lives unconsciously, unexamined, and dead by choice.

Edit: Another suggestion that is implied in what I say above but don't actually explicitly say it: rally and protest, which people are doing and should continue to do.

People should also volunteer for groups that help minorities and their causes. Donate to organizations like the ACLU.
 

Madrin

Member
If anyone has the energy (totally understand if you don't want to waste it on me), I'd love to hear criticism on my view of something related to the OP. White male Canadian living in the US currently

First of all, I don't think the groups affected by racism and bigotry in America need to take on the onus of reaching across the aisle. They should focus on doing whatever they need to to share/process their pain and anger and find a way to keep on living in this current reality. Anything they can do on top of that is great, but nobody can demand more of them.

However, I do think that there is a possibility for helping the next election with some empathy and understanding towards a portion of the Trump electorate. People like me, who don't need to devote half our energy to just staying sane day-to-day, should take on this role.

I think it's a good idea for someone like me to engage with the kind of person who voted for Trump "because he'll lower my taxes" and try and have a good faith discussion about why I think that's a catastrophic world-view. And I think you have to empathize with them a little to have that conversation, because they won't be convinced by disdain. Obviously the explicitly, openly hateful people are not going to be the ones who are changed by this, but I guess the optimist in my believes a large part of the electorate are ignorant or have made flaws in their critical thinking/reason.

I guess I hold this belief because I used to be quite conservative/libertarian and learned a lot through good-faith discussions like those. I voted NDP in the last Canadian federal election.

If you disagree or think this is the kind of moderate thinking that is described in the OP, I'd appreciate your criticism. Thanks.

I agree with this. I agree that it's not the obligation of minorities to reach out to racists and Trump supporters and educate them. It's not really anyone's obligation, though you could probably make a convincing argument that it's the moral obligation of white people.

These are my thoughts on this…

The futility of arguing with people by attacking them goes beyond politics. It’s why arguing about ANYTHING, especially on the internet, is often pointless.

I believe most people’s minds can be changed. Not everyone’s, but most people’s. But it requires that you treat people with respect. That doesn’t mean coddling them. You call them out on their bullshit, but do it in a way that doesn’t make them feel like they’re being attacked. People get defensive when they feel attacked. This isn’t warm fuzzy feel-good bullshit, it’s basic human psychology.

Some people need to be swayed by facts, some by emotion, and some by experience.

Daryl Davis has convinced KKK members to give up their memberships. Kevin Folta talked on Joe Rogan’s podcast about his experiences as a scientist convincing people that GMO foods are not dangerous. Derek Black renounced his white nationalist views despite once being seen as the heir to Stormfront and its movement.

Conservatives I know have softened or completely reversed their views on a lot of issues. I have a Facebook friend who, until recently, always posted typical hardcore conservative rants about welfare and poor people just need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps blah blah blah. Then a couple months ago he made a long post about how he came to realize that some people are simply victims of their circumstances. The whole post was written with such heart, self-awareness, and humility that it read like a liberal’s silly fantasy of a pull-yourself-by-the-bootstraps conservative “awakening” to the reality of his bullshit.
[edit: fuck it, I’ll just post it here so you can read for yourself: http://i.imgur.com/JATl1Sp.jpg ]

Does calling people names and insulting their intelligence really accomplish anything? Really? I mean I’m really asking this. Because I’d love to just call Trump supporters stupid racists and have them go, “Wow maybe you’re right..” in a moment of self-reflection.

Honestly, this election probably could have been won without any of this changing of hearts and minds. If the DNC had propped up a better candidate than Hillary, they may have won. But I think this is bigger than just winning elections. There’s a lot of racism, bigotry, and straight-up misinformation in our society and I don’t get the feeling that it’s improving much. If your goal is to fight against that by actually changing people's minds and not just expressing your (completely justified) anger, I think this is the best approach.
 
I think most liberals are looking at this wrong. You don't need to reach out to racists, xenophobes or sexists and unify the whole country to win elections and push a progressive agenda. Forget those people. They are a minority.
But do NOT make the mistake of calling those who voted on an economic basis any of those slurs. It is the rust belt, those struggling with job losses and the growing wage divide who decided the election. No one else.

Also to be clear, it its NOT xenophobic to want to slow immigration to stop wages falling. Its NOT xenophobic to be against free trade agreements that would further ruin your communities, and vote for the candidate who is actually most likely to not adopt disastrous trade policy.

Its a simple fact that voting in your own self-interests and against a more progressive agenda isn't evil or wrong, and you do not have to own every single bit of policy your candidate adopts. The DNC did not offer real solutions - or could not convince the electorate they were sincere -, and Hillary was more likely than Trump to continue to hurt the communities that cost her the election. Calling people who traditionally vote democrat but didn't this time for good reason all these slurs, and pretending its true in spite of no evidence is hurting the party. Has hurt the party. Has hurt progressivism.

In summary: you have to reach out to democrats and potential democrat voters who didn't vote for Hillary this time. They do not have to reciprocate, because they've done nothing wrong. The issue is internal. Democrats lost the election because they couldn't convince democrats to vote for democrats.

To vote in your own self-interest is understandable, but does not absolve you of the results of that vote.

Sorry, not how that works. Collective action, collective responsibility. If Trump starts another Trail of Tears or Japanese internment - doubtful, but let me indulge in hyperbole - you don't get to say "Oh, well he said things, but I didn't think he was that bad, and I was voting in self interest."

You have a part in installing a certain type of power. Your vote results in that power being able to make executive and legislative choices. You absolutely have a responsibility.

You enjoy the rights and freedoms of your chosen government, likewise you must accept the responsibilities. To ignore that is just trying to offset potential guilt.
 

Madrin

Member
this isnt a stance exclusive to conservatives though. Anti-GMO can be found over the whole political spectrum. Especially in Europe

Absolutely. I was just using it as an example of someone convincing people to see his point of view by having a respectful dialogue with them.
 
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