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[Striek]

To vote in your own self-interest is understandable, but does not absolve you of the results of that vote.

Sorry, not how that works. Collective action, collective responsibility. If Trump starts another Trail of Tears or Japanese internment - doubtful, but let me indulge in hyperbole - you don't get to say "Oh, well he said things, but I didn't think he was that bad, and I was voting in self interest."

You have a part in installing a certain type of power. Your vote results in that power being able to make executive and legislative choices. You absolutely have a responsibility.

You enjoy the rights and freedoms of your chosen government, likewise you must accept the responsibilities. To ignore that is just trying to offset potential guilt.

Not at all. You make decisions on the basis of the information you have at the time. If Trump does stuff far, far outside the scope of his rhetoric you have no more responsibility than any democrat who failed to support or offer a candidate with solutions pertinent to the problems you are experiencing. People who, no more or less greedily, chased solutions to their very real problems instead of (or not in addition to) solving problems to ensure a broader coalition which would keep democrats in power.

Also, you have phrased this as potential, future responsibility and guilt, markedly different than requiring conciliation from people who have committed no offence (again, this is not Trump or indeed Republicans I am referring to but democrats who didn't vote democrat).

 

[Kaiterra]

I should at least be able to safely call people who are so glad "something is going to be done" about "our cops being murdered out there" racists, right?

 

[MHWilliams]

Not at all. You make decisions on the basis of the information you have at the time. If Trump does stuff far, far outside the scope of his rhetoric you have no more responsibility than any democrat who failed to support or offer a candidate with solutions pertinent to the problems you are experiencing. People who, no more or less greedily, chased solutions to their very real problems instead of (or not in addition to) solving problems to ensure a broader coalition which would keep democrats in power.

Also, you have phrased this as potential, future responsibility and guilt, markedly different than requiring conciliation from people who have committed no offence (again, this is not Trump or indeed Republicans I am referring to but democrats who didn't vote democrat).

Incorrect. Since I have this book on my Kindle, I resort to a summary of it for the purposes of this discussion.

Voting is your civic responsibility. It is a shared collective action to determine how our government establishes laws. You vote, and a governmental actor is installed. From that point on, you are partially responsible for their actions and when they err, it falls to you and others to check or move those poor actions.

In Our Name: The Ethics of Democracy - Review

The basic premise of Beerbohm's argument is that because democratic citizens are causally connected to political outcomes -- through sins both of commission and omission -- they bear moral responsibility for unjust decisions. At first blush (and even second), it may seem implausible to understand citizens as causal agents of government decisions in large representative democracies. We are several steps removed from policy-making.

But in voting, each of us does play an instrumental role even if we do not make a "difference" in the outcome, since our votes alter the final tally (75). This is not trivial: the margin of votes may well affect whether the president is able to assert he has a mandate for change, for instance.

This is only one link in the chain Beerbohm draws between individual causation and moral responsibility. When we deliberately act in concert with our fellow citizens to bring about injustice, we are coprincipals in wrongdoing. More commonly, however, we act in a more indirect fashion, choosing representatives who act unjustly and thereby "sponsor[ing] the state exercise of power that produces political injustice" (64); as such, we bear moral responsibility as "accessories" to injustice.

So your argument is that if we unknowingly install a poor actor, we cannot be held responsible for their actions. Also incorrect. We vote, the actor gained our consent to wield power, and through further inaction morally wrong actions happened. That you mean to do no harm does not mean that harm did not happen.

In a large representative democracy, then, we might reasonably resist the claim that we are in any meaningful way accessories to injustice. We possess such limited capacity to ensure that our representatives act justly that it is difficult for us to feel culpable for their decisions. But Beerbohm tells us we are wrong to feel this way. Indeed, we are wrong even when we vote against an unjust representative: in that case, although we do not cause wrongdoing, we still bear responsibility for injustice insofar as we support and receive benefits from the institutions in which he is embedded.

To diverge from the link above, the idea of voting is to promote the common good. That is why we all agree to this contract.

The Ethics of Voting Summary

Government ought to promote the common good rather than exploit some citizens for the sake of others. Everyone subject to coercive rules and who is expected to conform with and maintain social institutions should have a stake in those rules and institutions. It is unjust to expect people to comply with social rules unless those rules are sufficiently to their benefit. To the extent that the rules tend to benefit some groups at the expense of others, these others groups lack reasons to comply. To force them to comply with such rules, when they lack sufficient reasons to do so, is to subjugate them. Subjugating reasonable, responsible people is unjust. To vote for self-interest at the expense of the common good is to vote in favor of subjugating others. It’s that simple.

The latter part is important. Government is coercive. It uses laws to enforce certain norms. And it backs those laws up by implied force.

The Ethics of Voting Introduction

At base, democracy is just a decision-making method. In politics, democracy is a method for deciding when and how to coerce people into doing things they do not wish to do. Political democracy is a method for deciding (directly or indirectly) when, how, and in what ways a government will threaten people with violence. The symbol of democracy is not just the ballot—it is the ballot connected to a gun.

When it comes to government, we are a collective. Again, you want to share in the benefits, but deny the responsibility. That's not how it works. You get unintended benefits, do you not?

Individuality and Mass Democracy: Mill, Emerson, and the Burdens of Citizenship

First, individuality implies that, like it or not, citizens of democratic polities are responsible for their politics. It holds that the actions taken by democratic governments are actions taken on citizens' behalf. It insists, therefore, that citizens conceive of themselves as members of a community of shared responsibility and shared agency. Such responsibility is no doubt a burden and, as Mill and Emerson suggest, it exposes citizens to shame when their government acts badly. But it can also become a source of passion and pride.

That benefit he begins to illustrate is patriotism, by the way. To believe and have pride in the shared standard of your nation and government.

It doesn't matter how informed you are in this case. The vote itself is the action that led to the government in power. You wish to throw off the shared responsibility to free a person from the potential guilt of their actions. But that isn't an argument for a person having no responsibility for the government they've directly created by voting, or the actions of that government.

And with that, I sleep.

 

[Joni]

In closed primaries, whereas he won most open primaries (lost only 2 iirc) and more importantly, he won the rust belt states.

Closed primaries are fine considering it is a primary for a party, not an election. He also won most town halls that are even worse than closed primaries by that account. It is why Clinton has 3 million votes more.

But fine, if everyone here want to believe that Clinton lost because 50% of america is absolutely unsalvageable, why even talk about politics? You can't work with those people. You can't have progress.

In the end, 60 million people voted for a racist and another 100 million didn't care enough to vote against that racism. Obama's "Don't Boo, Vote" was a good statement. People pretended to care, but not enough to show it in their votes. It is like outrage culture on the internet. It is good for a 5 second timespan, but not if we have to think about it.

 

[ChryZ]

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Thank God for chainsaw

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Before someone tries the "all trump supporters aren't racist, the reason you don't get that is why he won" argument regarding this picture.

We know.

You're not the guy with the Swastika tattoo.

You're not the right wing fat cat with money bulging out of his pockets.

You're not the KKK klansman in the white hood.

You're not the one holding up the confederate flag that stands for states right to slavery.

You're not the guy wearing the "FUCK SJWs!" T-shirt.

You're not the Vice President elect who believes you can electrocute the gay out of a person.

No, you are not. We understand that completely.


You're the people standing in between them, holding hands with them and bolstering them, because you decided that emboldening them is the price you're willing to pay to enrich yourself

You CANNOT deny that.

You CANNOT run away from that.

You agreed with YOURSELF that you would stand on the same side as these people because you believed it was right for you.

Why can't you admit that out in the open?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Before someone tries the "all trump supporters aren't racist, the reason you don't get that is why he won" argument regarding this picture.

We know.

You're not the guy with the Swastika tattoo.

You're not the right wing fat cat with money bulging out of his pockets.

You're not the KKK klansman in the white hood.

You're not the one holding up the confederate flag that stands for states right to slavery.

You're not the guy wearing the "FUCK SJWs!" T-shirt.

You're not the Vice President elect who believes you can electrocute the gay out of a person.

No, you are not. We understand that completely.


You're the people standing in between them, holding hands with them and bolstering them, because you decided that emboldening them is the price you're willing to pay to enrich yourself

You CANNOT deny that.

You CANNOT run away from that.

You agreed with YOURSELF that you would stand on the same side as these people because you believed it was right for you.

Why can't you admit that out in the open?

Preach.

 

[_Ryo_]

I completely agree. It's time for bigots to face personal responsibility and consequences for their deplorable behavior.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

Incorrect. Since I have this book on my Kindle, I resort to a summary of it for the purposes of this discussion.

Voting is your civic responsibility. It is a shared collective action to determine how our government establishes laws. You vote, and a governmental actor is installed. From that point on, you are partially responsible for their actions and when they err, it falls to you and others to check or move those poor actions.

In Our Name: The Ethics of Democracy - Review


So your argument is that if we unknowingly install a poor actor, we cannot be held responsible for their actions. Also incorrect. We vote, the actor gained our consent to wield power, and through further inaction morally wrong actions happened. That you mean to do no harm does not mean that harm did not happen.



To diverge from the link above, the idea of voting is to promote the common good. That is why we all agree to this contract.

The Ethics of Voting Summary


The latter part is important. Government is coercive. It uses laws to enforce certain norms. And it backs those laws up by implied force.

The Ethics of Voting Introduction


When it comes to government, we are a collective. Again, you want to share in the benefits, but deny the responsibility. That's not how it works. You get unintended benefits, do you not?

Individuality and Mass Democracy: Mill, Emerson, and the Burdens of Citizenship


That benefit he begins to illustrate is patriotism, by the way. To believe and have pride in the shared standard of your nation and government.

It doesn't matter how informed you are in this case. The vote itself is the action that led to the government in power. You wish to throw off the shared responsibility to free a person from the potential guilt of their actions. But that isn't an argument for a person having no responsibility for the government they've directly created by voting, or the actions of that government.

And with that, I sleep.

I respectfully disagree with your ethics book, and agree with the prior poster. Why should we be held responsible for a priori information?

 

[crackhead_bob]

You can echo the sentiment that we shouldn't hate on people, because that will never make them join your cause and it will eventually hurt us as a group of people.

Buuut! If you voted for Trump, you voted for someone who represents so many horrible things, and you deserve to be called out on it.

When I voted the last time in Sweden, I would've gladly stood up for my belief in pro-choice, because the party I chose to represent me, is pro-choice. You can twist and turn your argument why, but you will have to stand for all the platforms you chose to represent you.

Even if it means that you'll be labeled as a baby killer? Not an accusation on my part, but an observation. I'm glad that you pointed this out because someone from my own family has already begun trying to weasel her way out of owning up to her own culpability in this mess. I'm not having any of it. I won't let them off the hook, and I explained why in almost all of your words.

I'm an Asian American and even though I'm considered a part of the "model minority" demographic, I grew up as one of only a handful of Asian students in my school during the 80's and was teased regularly from my fellow students because of my ethnicity. So while my experiences may not be on the level of urgency that a black or muslim adult or child goes through now, I can certainly empathize with feeling like I'm being stepped on and feeling like there's no one who has their back. And yes, even I as an adult have recently been at the receiving end of ignorant assholes who feel empowered by what's been going on during this election cycle. Maybe not on the level of wanting me shipped out of the country, but very petty, alpha like behavior you see in a high school locker room or football stadium. "Hey Ming!" in this mock Asian accent as I'm riding on my bike past a small group of twenty something year olds. And why? I never even met these people before. What did I ever do to them to warrant such animus?

I'm also adopted as well, and was brought up in a caucasian household, so I do have a binary experience in that regard, but don't believe that all white people are racist, even in my family. Most of them are with me on Trump. They see him for what he is: a snake oil salesman, and voted for Hillary, even though most of them had initially thrown their support behind Bernie Sanders. For the ones that did, I cannot and will not in good conscience forgive them. Ever. There's no excuse. Not when all of this mad man's bullshit has been on display for the world to see. And not just these past 18 months, but really these past few decades. My cousin may not have voted for Trump because of his racism or misogyny, but she was willing to tolerate his racism and misogyny nonetheless. Why? I don't know. Because she's not this dumb, racist inbred. She's a very successful woman in real estate who makes a six figure salary. She's beautiful, she's smart, and up until recently, we were as close to each other as we could be, given how stand offish to people I normally am. But growing up, she always made me feel like I was worth something, even though I knew even back then that she was blowing smoke up my ass in order to make me feel better about myself. But it was always the thought that mattered to me, and for that I was always grateful,

I like the point you brought up with being prochoice. You've probably been called a baby killer before. As have I. And as have many other people here on this forum in their own personal live. But you accept it, for better or for worse, because at the end of the day what good is taking up that stance in the first place if you're not even willing to back it up in deed or rhetoric? So I really resent this call to "come together" from those that stirred this shit in the first place, and that includes my cousin. And that sucks too, because I loved her. I thought I knew her up until a year ago. And I would have taken a bullet for her, as well as her 3 young daughters if any random asshole ever tried to violate or intimidate any of them because they somehow felt that as men that they were entitled to.

Edit: I've very strung up and exhausted right now, so I this post seems all over the place, that is the reason why. My thoughts are cogent, but not really well executed, and for that I apologize.

 

[Jackpot]

Before someone tries the "all trump supporters aren't racist, the reason you don't get that is why he won" argument regarding this picture.

We know.

You're not the guy with the Swastika tattoo.

You're not the right wing fat cat with money bulging out of his pockets.

You're not the KKK klansman in the white hood.

You're not the one holding up the confederate flag that stands for states right to slavery.

You're not the guy wearing the "FUCK SJWs!" T-shirt.

You're not the Vice President elect who believes you can electrocute the gay out of a person.

No, you are not. We understand that completely.


You're the people standing in between them, holding hands with them and bolstering them, because you decided that emboldening them is the price you're willing to pay to enrich yourself

You CANNOT deny that.

You CANNOT run away from that.

You agreed with YOURSELF that you would stand on the same side as these people because you believed it was right for you.

Why can't you admit that out in the open?

Bingo. Maybe you don't actively hate minorities, but you sure as hell don't care whether they live or die.

 

[zpiders]

Calling everyone who voted Trump a racist anti-woman bigot is just sweeping issues under the carpet. I guarantee there were plenty of black, Latinos, LGBT, muslims and woman who voted for him. For gods sake, I saw someone on the BBC who was part of a movement called Muslims for Trump!

Rather than labelling everyone as the same, look at he varied issues and concerns of these people and why they chose Trump. Only then can the left solve these issues and bounce back stronger.

 

[NobleGundam]

How... how is that clan member smiling outside of his hood if he has his face covered over?

 

[cheezcake]

Before someone tries the "all trump supporters aren't racist, the reason you don't get that is why he won" argument regarding this picture.

We know.

You're not the guy with the Swastika tattoo.

You're not the right wing fat cat with money bulging out of his pockets.

You're not the KKK klansman in the white hood.

You're not the one holding up the confederate flag that stands for states right to slavery.

You're not the guy wearing the "FUCK SJWs!" T-shirt.

You're not the Vice President elect who believes you can electrocute the gay out of a person.

No, you are not. We understand that completely.


You're the people standing in between them, holding hands with them and bolstering them, because you decided that emboldening them is the price you're willing to pay to enrich yourself

You CANNOT deny that.

You CANNOT run away from that.

You agreed with YOURSELF that you would stand on the same side as these people because you believed it was right for you.

Why can't you admit that out in the open?

No we're the guys who understand that the most important thing thing to do to actually help minorities is win elections, not turn off aspects of your own voter base by making vast generalisations which result in giving a racist idiot the most powerful position in the world. But sure go ahead with your double down in thinking that white moderates in the rust belt don't matter. Enjoy your moral superiority boner while we minorities get fucked.

 

[MUnited83]

Calling everyone who voted Trump a racist anti-woman bigot is just sweeping issues under the carpet. I guarantee there were plenty of black, Latinos, LGBT, muslims and woman who voted for him. For gods sake, I saw someone on the BBC who was part of a movement called Muslims for Trump!

Rather than labelling everyone as the same, look at he varied issues and concerns of these people and why they chose Trump. Only then can the left solve these issues and bounce back stronger.

Internalised racism and self hate is a thing.
Every fucking Trunp supporter is responsible for this shit. I dont give a flying fuck that 2 or 3 of his supporters are "not racist". They are fine with white supremacy, bigotry and the destruction of civil rights. They are just as fucking bad for being fine with this shit. No fucking excuses.

No we're the guys who understand that the most important thing thing to do to actually help minorities is win elections, not turn off aspects of your own voter base by making vast generalisations which result in giving a racist idiot the most powerful position in the world. But sure go ahead with your double down in thinking that white moderates in the rust belt don't matter. Enjoy your moral superiority boner while we minorities get fucked.

If you honestly believe that Trump got elected because of generalisations (that are true, btw), you're win for a hell of rude awakening.

This is what Trump supporters are approving of. This is their motherfucking platform. Every Trump supporter is fucking piece of shit that fucked their own country ,its minorities, and the world. They don't deserve excuses.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Before someone tries the "all trump supporters aren't racist, the reason you don't get that is why he won" argument regarding this picture.

We know.

You're not the guy with the Swastika tattoo.

You're not the right wing fat cat with money bulging out of his pockets.

You're not the KKK klansman in the white hood.

You're not the one holding up the confederate flag that stands for states right to slavery.

You're not the guy wearing the "FUCK SJWs!" T-shirt.

You're not the Vice President elect who believes you can electrocute the gay out of a person.

No, you are not. We understand that completely.


You're the people standing in between them, holding hands with them and bolstering them, because you decided that emboldening them is the price you're willing to pay to enrich yourself

You CANNOT deny that.

You CANNOT run away from that.

You agreed with YOURSELF that you would stand on the same side as these people because you believed it was right for you.

Why can't you admit that out in the open?

No we're the guys who understand that the most important thing thing to do to actually help minorities is win elections, not turn off aspects of your own voter base by making vast generalisations which result in giving a racist idiot the most powerful position in the world. But sure go ahead with your double down in thinking that white moderates in the rust belt don't matter. Enjoy your moral superiority boner while we minorities get fucked.

Why does me telling a person that they stood side by side with bigotry, while standing on top of minorities, to enrich themselves, and that they should accept that is what they did, make me morally superior?

Who the hell said White moderates in the dust belt don't matter??? That's doesn't even have anything to do with my post.

Further to that point, how does a white moderate closing their eyes to the people scared that the entire nation is not unilaterally standing against hatred towards them, give that closed eyed white moderate the right to make the "fuck you, you don't even care about me or my economic situation!" statement, but the people who they just voted to step on cannot reply even slightly in kind? Not even in kind, why can't they even call them out on it???

I am SPECIFICALLY talking to people who want to brush away their responsibility for stepping on minorities with their vote for Trump. Who also say that nobody should be able to criticise in any way the fact that their vote links them with the bigotry they DID vote into the Oval Office and is ALREADY negatively affecting many minorities of every kind all over the states?

I'm not even explicitly making the point that their decision was a bad one (even though it's my opinion), I'm making the point that they should ACCEPT that this is what their vote meant, good or bad.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

I mean essentially, why should minorities look for a middle ground with someone who will make them suffer, let then die, throw then under the bus, look the other way while enabling suffering, just so they can benefit from it. How is that different from openly being racist.

Actually I find closet racists much much worse. At least public racists own up to hiw fucked up they are.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

How... how is that clan member smiling outside of his hood if he has his face covered over?

white power

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Again, I asked in last page, is everyone who supported Hillary a warmongeror (no-fly zone)?

A warmonger was going to be elected in either case.

We lost the chance to change that by the time 9/11 hit

The analogy has no traction

 

[Monocle]

Again, I asked in last page, is everyone who supported Hillary a warmongeror (no-fly zone)?

Nobody's entertaining your question because your reasoning is critically flawed. Supporting a candidate with an aggressive approach to foreign policy is entirely different than supporting an open bigot who engaged in and encouraged bullying and persecution throughout his campaign. It's unfortunate you can't recognize blatant false equivalence when you yourself repeat it.

 

[MUnited83]

Again, I asked in last page, is everyone who supported Hillary a warmongeror (no-fly zone)?

Putting pressure on Russia (a no-fly zone wouldn't actually be realised) is far from being a warmongeror, so that makes no sense whatsoever.


You know who's going to be the actual warmongeror? The fucking fascist that is going to ally himself with Assad and Putin.

You completely fucking ignore that wasn't even remotely a central part of her campaign.



all the fucking shit Trump campaign is focused for is on bigotry , racism, taking away civil rights and breaking the constitution . You don't fucking get to vote for him and say you're not approving this shit

 

[zethren]

Before someone tries the "all trump supporters aren't racist, the reason you don't get that is why he won" argument regarding this picture.

We know.

You're not the guy with the Swastika tattoo.

You're not the right wing fat cat with money bulging out of his pockets.

You're not the KKK klansman in the white hood.

You're not the one holding up the confederate flag that stands for states right to slavery.

You're not the guy wearing the "FUCK SJWs!" T-shirt.

You're not the Vice President elect who believes you can electrocute the gay out of a person.

No, you are not. We understand that completely.


You're the people standing in between them, holding hands with them and bolstering them, because you decided that emboldening them is the price you're willing to pay to enrich yourself

You CANNOT deny that.

You CANNOT run away from that.

You agreed with YOURSELF that you would stand on the same side as these people because you believed it was right for you.

Why can't you admit that out in the open?

Yesssssss, don't stop. Keep going. Keep spreading this.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Again, I asked in last page, is everyone who supported Hillary a warmongeror (no-fly zone)?

No, but you they wouldn't try to make out that voting for someone with (so called and ridiculously labeled) warmonger views doesn't mean that they're voting for one.

Yet you have a man who offensive to everything under the sun except one particular demographic AS A CORE CAMPAIGN MESSAGE and you'd be lucky as all he'll to get that special untouched demographic to admit their support for it by voting for him.

 

[Monocle]

Before someone tries the "all trump supporters aren't racist, the reason you don't get that is why he won" argument regarding this picture.

We know.

You're not the guy with the Swastika tattoo.

You're not the right wing fat cat with money bulging out of his pockets.

You're not the KKK klansman in the white hood.

You're not the one holding up the confederate flag that stands for states right to slavery.

You're not the guy wearing the "FUCK SJWs!" T-shirt.

You're not the Vice President elect who believes you can electrocute the gay out of a person.

No, you are not. We understand that completely.


You're the people standing in between them, holding hands with them and bolstering them, because you decided that emboldening them is the price you're willing to pay to enrich yourself

You CANNOT deny that.

You CANNOT run away from that.

You agreed with YOURSELF that you would stand on the same side as these people because you believed it was right for you.

Why can't you admit that out in the open?

The cold hard truth right here.

 

[4 is a cutie]

Calling everyone who voted Trump a racist anti-woman bigot is just sweeping issues under the carpet. I guarantee there were plenty of black, Latinos, LGBT, muslims and woman who voted for him. For gods sake, I saw someone on the BBC who was part of a movement called Muslims for Trump!

Rather than labelling everyone as the same, look at he varied issues and concerns of these people and why they chose Trump. Only then can the left solve these issues and bounce back stronger.

Tap dancin', "Im one of the good ones!"-type folk are plenty capable of hating their own kind lol

 

[cheezcake]

If you honestly believe that Trump got elected because of generalisations (that are true, btw), you're win for a hell of rude awakening.

This is what Trump supporters are approving of. This is their motherfucking platform. Every Trump supporter is fucking piece of shit that fucked their own country ,its minorities, and the world. They don't deserve excuses.

Trump got elected because Clinton's campaign completely neglected dem leaning white moderates in the rust belt. These people may have voted Trump or they did not vote at all. So the question is why? The DNC is on record stating that this demographic is not important and they'd rather appeal to educated republicans in states like Philadelphia. These voters were consistently told they don't matter, the DNC felt they were entitled to their vote without actually doing anything for them. Here comes The Cheeto, he feeds them lies about bringing back their jobs, he says bs about how he's going to boost their economy. He appeals to their nostalgia. All of a sudden there's an inkling of change in their state of mind. These people are not diehard Trumpers, but they think "why is he the only one offering me anything?". Hell this probably doesn't make most of them vote for Trump because he's fucked up in so many other ways, but it does make them markedly less enthusiastic about Clinton who completely ignores you. You then have the "basket of deplorables", you have Clinton supporters en masse saying you're racist if you don't support Clinton completely and utterly in this election. And you're still thinking, "but what have you done for me?". And you like her less and less every time this happens.

Do you then, honestly, expect these people to come out and vote en masse for Clinton? No of course not, in an ideal world they would vote for Clinton still but that's not human nature, depressing but true.

I also think there's a strawman being propagated by people that seem to replace me and like-minded posters saying, "let's not be too quick to label everyone a racist if they don't agree with us, some people may have valid grievances that we could help address", with, "guys seriously racists exist and we need to appeal to them" which is not at all what we're saying and ironically stems from the exact problem we want to fix.

 

[cheezcake]

Why does me telling a person that they stood side by side with bigotry, while standing on top of minorities, to enrich themselves, and that they should accept that is what they did, make me morally superior?

Who the hell said White moderates in the dust belt don't matter??? That's doesn't even have anything to do with my post.

Further to that point, how does a white moderate closing their eyes to the people scared that the entire nation is not unilaterally standing against hatred towards them, give that closed eyed white moderate the right to make the "fuck you, you don't even care about me or my economic situation!" statement, but the people who they just voted to step on cannot reply even slightly in kind? Not even in kind, why can't they even call them out on it???

I am SPECIFICALLY talking to people who want to brush away their responsibility for stepping on minorities with their vote for Trump. Who also say that nobody should be able to criticise in any way the fact that their vote links them with the bigotry they DID vote into the Oval Office and is ALREADY negatively affecting many minorities of every kind all over the states?

I'm not even explicitly making the point that their decision was a bad one (even though it's my opinion), I'm making the point that they should ACCEPT that this is what their vote meant, good or bad.

Your post is symptomatic of an attitude which suppresses voter turnout by white moderates who did not like Trump as a candidate but did not like Hillary either. Too often this election cycle did calling Trump supporters racist (which I'm not against by the way) extend into calling everyone who didn't love Clinton a racist, and a lot of people have valid grievances with a Clinton presidency, most of all the white middle class in the rust belt. Also I don't disagree with your moral assessment of the situation, I just don't think the attitude it produces is productive at all. Yeh those people who abstained from voting or voted Trump fucked up immensely, it was a morally repugnant thing to do. But it was also human nature when under their circumstances, and that's not something I can change. What I can change is my attitude, prioritise practical change over simply being right but nothing coming of it. That's what Obama did, that white vote which vanished for Clinton helped put him into office because he listened to them. And that gave him a platform to help minorities too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, yeh you're right. Trump voters made a morally reprehensible choice. People who abstained from the vote share some degree of responsibility too. But fighting them with these types of words accomplishes nothing. And If I can find a middle ground which lets us get some amount done to help minorities instead of gambling everything away for the sake of ideological purity, then yes I will do that.

 

[wildfire]

I should at least be able to safely call people who are so glad "something is going to be done" about "our cops being murdered out there" racists, right?

Generally yes. Technically be mindful of the neighborhood your in that could be a high risk factor.

 

[Kaiterra]

Generally yes. Technically be mindful of the neighborhood your in that could be a high risk factor.

I mean my city has been called the safest city in the midwest, so.

 

[ReadingRambo]

Before someone tries the "all trump supporters aren't racist, the reason you don't get that is why he won" argument regarding this picture.

We know.

You're not the guy with the Swastika tattoo.

You're not the right wing fat cat with money bulging out of his pockets.

You're not the KKK klansman in the white hood.

You're not the one holding up the confederate flag that stands for states right to slavery.

You're not the guy wearing the "FUCK SJWs!" T-shirt.

You're not the Vice President elect who believes you can electrocute the gay out of a person.

No, you are not. We understand that completely.


You're the people standing in between them, holding hands with them and bolstering them, because you decided that emboldening them is the price you're willing to pay to enrich yourself

You CANNOT deny that.

You CANNOT run away from that.

You agreed with YOURSELF that you would stand on the same side as these people because you believed it was right for you.

Why can't you admit that out in the open?

Let's apply this to blue-collar whites, who represented 1/3 of Obama's election win in 2012, but switched to Trump in large numbers in the key states that carried him to victory. Are they now racist, sexists, bigots etc. because they are doing what they've always done (voting for the platform that offers them the most)?

I say they are not. There is a hierarchy of needs, and being able to provide for oneself and family comes way before caring about the rights of others.

 

[Kaiterra]

Let's apply this to blue-collar whites, who represented 1/3 of Obama's election win in 2012, but switched to Trump in large numbers in the key states that carried him to victory. Are they now racist, sexists, bigots etc. because they are doing what they've always done (voting for the platform that offers them the most)?

What was on offer other than platitudes and scapegoats though?

 

[ReadingRambo]

What was on offer other than platitudes and scapegoats though?

That's politics. The same things that were offered by the Democrats they elected who they now feel have abandoned them.

 

[NobleGundam]

white power

I am cry. Bravo

 

[Lime]

Let's apply this to blue-collar whites, who represented 1/3 of Obama's election win in 2012, but switched to Trump in large numbers in the key states that carried him to victory. Are they now racist, sexists, bigots etc. because they are doing what they've always done (voting for the platform that offers them the most)?

I say they are not. There is a hierarchy of needs, and being able to provide for oneself and family comes way before caring about the rights of others.

As Imani Perry wrote:

"The formulation that White people who once voted for Obama couldn't be motivated by racism in voting for Trump is wrong. Not how racism works. Case in point: even David Duke said nice things about Obama when he was running. It's called exceptionalizing. "This one is ok, the rest are a threat" commonplace of contemporary racial imagination. I wrote about it years ago. Along w/many others. If only people were as horrified about actually being racist and/or behaving in racist ways as they are about being called racist."

 

[Makonero]

What was on offer other than platitudes and scapegoats though?

Apparently, telling people what they want to hear (whether or not they're lies) works. Oh, and, you know, actually showing up in rural areas.

 

[ReadingRambo]

As Imani Perry wrote:

"The formulation that White people who once voted for Obama couldn't be motivated by racism in voting for Trump is wrong. Not how racism works. Case in point: even David Duke said nice things about Obama when he was running. It's called exceptionalizing. "This one is ok, the rest are a threat" commonplace of contemporary racial imagination. I wrote about it years ago. Along w/many others. If only people were as horrified about actually being racist and/or behaving in racist ways as they are about being called racist."

They were not motivated by racism. They were motivated by economics. The racists that have come out of the woodwork, emboldened by Trumps ascension, were there all along.

 

[ISOM]

I really have to get over this feeling, but I don't know how...

I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere Illinois. I was eating my lunch in Wendy's lobby today, and it was decently packed. They were all these old men and women. And I totally lumped them all into a group like an asshole...but I just felt so damn uncomfortable in there. Like an alien on another planet. Like I couldn't trust those around me. I kept thinking "you all voted for Trump, didn't you..." And it made my skin crawl, like I needed to get out of there as soon as I could.

Anyone else going through anything like this?

Yes.

 

[Glix]

No we're the guys who understand that the most important thing thing to do to actually help minorities is win elections, not turn off aspects of your own voter base by making vast generalisations which result in giving a racist idiot the most powerful position in the world. But sure go ahead with your double down in thinking that white moderates in the rust belt don't matter. Enjoy your moral superiority boner while we minorities get fucked.

So how are you "actually helping minorities"?

 

[Clefargle]

We shouldn't accept, normalize, legitimize, tolerate, forgive or befriend these people. But if you refuse to understand why they did this, we can't stop them or change it next time. We have to talk to them, not in comment sections, but in our daily lives. Shunning or ridiculing people won't help us figure out how we got it so wrong. Don't give up on discourse, talking with bigots doesn't empower them. If you do it right, it should educate them. And maybe we can learn something about how to prevent this next time.

 

[Oriel]

This is the sort of shit some people feel is OK to be tolerated.

Boys will be boys eh?

 

[Oppo]

As Imani Perry wrote:

"The formulation that White people who once voted for Obama couldn't be motivated by racism in voting for Trump is wrong. Not how racism works. Case in point: even David Duke said nice things about Obama when he was running. It's called exceptionalizing. "This one is ok, the rest are a threat" commonplace of contemporary racial imagination. I wrote about it years ago. Along w/many others. If only people were as horrified about actually being racist and/or behaving in racist ways as they are about being called racist."

This is a good point. Very good point.

But, at least we know the door can be cracked for a "good one" minority candidate. Sad as that is to type.

I think the next Democratic presidential candidate needs to be a fresh face. No baggage. Trump benefitted greatly from that. No record in politics.

 

[cheezcake]

So how are you "actually helping minorities"?

If Clinton got the same, or even similar votes, as Obama from the more rural areas in the rust belt she wins the election, we do this by doing the same thing Obama did, actually extend your campaign to these areas and try and understand the problems these people are having. Instead of ignoring them utterly and expecting them to vote for your regardless because hey it's a blue state. You don't demonise everyone who says some issues primarily effecting some white people need to be considered as racists. You certainly don't call people who criticise Clinton or say they don't want to vote because the candidate isnt offering them anything as racist.

This happens, the exact same thing that Obama did, we now have Hillary Clinton as president instead of Donald Trump. And what have you really sacrificed? That seems pretty helpful to minorities to me.

 

[Principate]

Not at all. You make decisions on the basis of the information you have at the time. If Trump does stuff far, far outside the scope of his rhetoric you have no more responsibility than any democrat who failed to support or offer a candidate with solutions pertinent to the problems you are experiencing. People who, no more or less greedily, chased solutions to their very real problems instead of (or not in addition to) solving problems to ensure a broader coalition which would keep democrats in power.

Also, you have phrased this as potential, future responsibility and guilt, markedly different than requiring conciliation from people who have committed no offence (again, this is not Trump or indeed Republicans I am referring to but democrats who didn't vote democrat).

Yeah but that doesn't wash, unless you assume those people are idiots, he has lied and flip flopped on god damn everything. You don't to wash your hands of something when you give the keys of the house to a noted liar deceiver and potential robber.

 

[thechristoph]

Wednesday morning I was despondent, probably along with millions of other people.

I always knew there were people that probably aren't actively hateful, but they just kinda go along with what maw and paw and granpappy said about minority groups, not bothering to learn more about the world outside their own home. The election made me feel like the actively hateful people were more numerous than I ever thought; their hate was acted out by a vote for this guy who just sums it all up. The "innocent bigots" (for want of a better term) people turned into active bigots, and this is what the voting majority of our country is made up of now. Great.

My whole life I wanted to believe that most people think that it's society's job to bring everyone together for the benefit of the whole. That it's the strong's responsibility to take care of the weak. That sick people have the right to get better. That poor people should at least be able to fucking eat. But I'm wrong. People don't want that. "Fuck you; got mine" is now national policy.

But in feeling this way, I'm still ignoring the people who have been ignored this whole time and became galvanized during this whole ugly affair. They live in rural Nebraskentuckanas. The paper mill or sewing machine factory or coal mine has closed down. All the jobs have either gone to China or gone to migrant workers who accept pennies on the dollar under the table. I feel very badly for this type of person. I do not think that it's fair to paint this entire segment with the same bigot brush as the first group I described. But instead of trying to answer why this group fell in with the "bad crowd" we're vilifying them. They do deserve understanding, and they do deserve a solution.

We're turning into "Fuck you; got mine", but what we got isn't money and power. I don't want to say it's a form of smug superiority; it's not. We're not considering the origin of this issue. I think the issue is rooted in education; we've taught generations that if you didn't go to college to work a white-collar job, you are a failure. Now that is all that's left. Not everyone can be a systems administrator. Some people do need to work in that sewing machine factory. But it's in China now.

I don't think this is the right thread to post this in, and GAF as a whole definitely isn't the place to have this conversation because it just turns into shouting matches or people responding to just one line of a whole post to make you look like an idiot, but I had to get this out somehow.

 

[Kaiterra]

That's politics. The same things that were offered by the Democrats they elected who they now feel have abandoned them.

Apparently, telling people what they want to hear (whether or not they're lies) works. Oh, and, you know, actually showing up in rural areas.

I mean it's not like job creation, economic growth and support for the lower class wasn't a major plank of the Clinton campaign. But people apparently only wanted to listen to the man who was giving them a scapegoat to cast their blame on rather than the woman publishing actual plans on how she expected to get things done.

 

[sibarraz]

I afraid of how many things posted on social media are real or not, we reached a point were anyone can post anything on facebook/twitter/instagram and people will believe it just to fit their agendas, this goes for all the lies that trump used to win, making people do deplorable things since they believed that now all of this was acceptable with the new president, and at the same time this surge of stories about racism and mysogyny from day 1 with some of them being already debunked with hard proof, but also thinking that it could be real since you see lots of stupid and deplorable things happening in the USA

I reached this point of cynicism were you really can't take anything serious on the internet, is like everyone is looking to post the most populist bullshit in order to get the approval of people who thinks like you, completely ignoring the issues of the others, in the end real life is like facebook, you don't like something. Blocked

At least I understand people who want nothing with racists and mysogines, those people really are looking to do a lot of harm, but there is some people who has stupid believings and outdated views which could be changed, it happens.

 

[ReadingRambo]

I mean it's not like job creation, economic growth and support for the lower class wasn't a major plank of the Clinton campaign. But people apparently only wanted to listen to the man who was giving them a scapegoat to cast their blame on rather than the woman publishing actual plans on how she expected to get things done.

How is it easier for you to blame millions of Americans than a campaign that nearly everyone at this point understands made massive mistakes in their strategy?

 

[Kaiterra]

How is it easier for you to blame millions of Americans than a campaign that nearly everyone at this point understands made massive mistakes in their strategy?

That's not what I did? There were clearly mistakes made, but I am not fully convinced what you said is accurate regardless.

 

[Lime]

They were not motivated by racism. They were motivated by economics. The racists that have come out of the woodwork, emboldened by Trumps ascension, were there all along.

Whatever their motivations, they are more than willing to vote and empower a fascist. As Bronx-man wrote:" A good majority of this country said that they might not be white supremacists themselves, but they can tolerate white supremacy."

How is it easier for you to blame millions of Americans than a campaign that nearly everyone at this point understands made massive mistakes in their strategy?

Addressing racism in the US and white people's willingness to embrace white supremacy is not mutually exclusive to the disastrous failure of the Democratic Party and Hilary Clinton as candidate.