Support NeoGAF

[Stone Ocean]

What course of action would you recommend to someone who is not racist and not a warmonger?

Weigh pros and cons and vote for the lesser of two evils because not voting doesn't mean you get to wash your hands of the consequences.

 

[Spanx McFranks]

Wednesday morning I was despondent, probably along with millions of other people.

I always knew there were people that probably aren't actively hateful, but they just kinda go along with what maw and paw and granpappy said about minority groups, not bothering to learn more about the world outside their own home. The election made me feel like the actively hateful people were more numerous than I ever thought; their hate was acted out by a vote for this guy who just sums it all up. The "innocent bigots" (for want of a better term) people turned into active bigots, and this is what the voting majority of our country is made up of now. Great.

My whole life I wanted to believe that most people think that it's society's job to bring everyone together for the benefit of the whole. That it's the strong's responsibility to take care of the weak. That sick people have the right to get better. That poor people should at least be able to fucking eat. But I'm wrong. People don't want that. "Fuck you; got mine" is now national policy.

But in feeling this way, I'm still ignoring the people who have been ignored this whole time and became galvanized during this whole ugly affair. They live in rural Nebraskentuckanas. The paper mill or sewing machine factory or coal mine has closed down. All the jobs have either gone to China or gone to migrant workers who accept pennies on the dollar under the table. I feel very badly for this type of person. I do not think that it's fair to paint this entire segment with the same bigot brush as the first group I described. But instead of trying to answer why this group fell in with the "bad crowd" we're vilifying them. They do deserve understanding, and they do deserve a solution.

We're turning into "Fuck you; got mine", but what we got isn't money and power. I don't want to say it's a form of smug superiority; it's not. We're not considering the origin of this issue. I think the issue is rooted in education; we've taught generations that if you didn't go to college to work a white-collar job, you are a failure. Now that is all that's left. Not everyone can be a systems administrator. Some people do need to work in that sewing machine factory. But it's in China now.

I don't think this is the right thread to post this in, and GAF as a whole definitely isn't the place to have this conversation because it just turns into shouting matches or people responding to just one line of a whole post to make you look like an idiot, but I had to get this out somehow.

It is nice to see at least one person here gets it. The middle class in the heart of the nation has been ignored too long and they reacted by electing someone who they thought could help them.

 

[Mesoian]

It is nice to see at least one person here gets it. The middle class in the heart of the nation has been ignored too long and they reacted by electing someone who they thought could help them.

While he's right, I fail to see how we need to be understanding of their solution which is built upon a foundation of racism, sexism and xenophobia. You think the system is failing you? Cool, get involved. But spending time trying to mince around the hate filled words of your leader as he calls for violence against people in his speeches while still crowing his slogans moments later isn't how you make progress.

But they'll find that out soon enough. People are about to be made real clear about whether they depended on NAFTA or not...

 

[Dalek]

It is nice to see at least one person here gets it. The middle class in the heart of the nation has been ignored too long and they reacted by electing someone who they thought could help them.

So....
"Fuck you, don't got mine?"

 

[UncleSporky]

Weigh pros and cons and vote for the lesser of two evils because not voting doesn't mean you get to wash your hands of the consequences.

It doesn't go both ways.

Either people aren't necessarily the embodiment of who they vote for, or they are, and it's alright not to vote so as not to become something you're not.

 

[Mesoian]

It doesn't go both ways.

Either people aren't necessarily the embodiment of who they vote for, or they are, and it's alright not to vote so as not to become something you're not.

You can vote for someone who is better for the position today and protest the specifics tomorrow. Plenty of people who voted for Obama are still protesting against drone strikes and aggression against the middleeast.

 

[KingV]

You'd have to first point to anything Trump stood for that wasn't a slight against a minority or religion. What policy did he propose that didn't involve demonizing a group of people?

Trade tariffs are not explicitly racist.

 

[Nepenthe]

I don't see a conflict of interests between trying to address Rust Belt joblessness and not tolerating racism. By speaking on both issues simultaneously, you include poor whites into the fold who then have the grounds to separate themselves from the chaff. "I'm not racist or sexist, so (s)he's not talking about me." It seems relatively easy to do. However, when you only focus on one or the other, you eliminate nuance and force people into an ideological camps. Either you are ignoring racism, or you're ignoring joblessness.

However, I don't agree with this notion that voting for a raving racist for economic reasons absolves you of the responsibility of any racist policies he enacts. I was highly uncomfortable with Hillary's foreign policy plans, particularly the idea of a no-fly zone over Syria. However, I voted for her anyway, meaning I was ready and willing to take responsibility for the fallout of that endeavor. Votes do not discriminate between policies. They are all or nothing.

Why can't Trump supporters and their sympathizers do the same?

 

[Akuun]

Are they gullible? Sure. Racist, homophobic, sexist? Go fuck yourself

From what I'm seeing, a part of the population voted Trump because of single issue things, while ignoring everything else. "Lower taxes = I get more money." "Upholding this one education enrollment law that helps me and only my race." That sort of thing. So they voted in their own interests. They voted for Trump while ignoring or overlooking all the harm that went with that vote.

It's a horrible thing to vote that way. It's ignorant, selfish, reductionist, possibly gullible, and a whole bunch of other things. Anyone who does voted Trump is indirectly condoning all the horrible hateful shit that Trump stands for. I'm still depressed from the election results and I'm not even American.

But I think there is a distinction there. People who voted Trump are not necessarily racist/sexist/etc themselves, but they are indirectly supporting it or looking the other way from those matters, which is almost as bad, but is not exactly the same thing. I'm not defending these people - I think voting for him while ignoring all of his shit is incredibly irresponsible, shortsighted, and selfish, and I am mad at them, but I think there is a portion of his voters who aren't racists.

It's a simple logic thing. A and B are both parts of C, but that does not necessarily make A part of B.

 

[Jakoo]

I mean, while I understand that, I fail to understand how Hillary's hawkish nature is somehow worse than Donald Trump's promise to deport all Muslims from the country, whether he has the power or ability to do so or not. One is a questionable stance on global policy, the other is literally tearing the social aspect of this country into tiny pieces.

Are Trump supporters going, "Yeah he said that, but that's clearly bullshit. But all that OTHER STUFF?!? He'll deliver on that, absolutely 100%".

Separating the two doesn't make sense.

Imagine I use "hawkish nature" in a less nuanced way though, and stated it as follows: Is Hillary's military intervention, which indirectly resulted in the slaughter of innocent people abroad (referring to her support of regime change in Libya, for example), worse than people being deported from a country?

My point being, people weigh different priorities on different things when casting a vote. Even though I still chose Hillary over Trump, I don't know if I can assume everyone places the same value on same issue, and it doesn't necessarily mean I cosign everything about Hillary has said or done. I imagine some Trump supporters feel the same about his sexism, xenophobia and racism. I don't feel like I can judge them without also judging myself and my support of Hillary in spite of her serious issues, too.

 

[Alienfan]

This HBO/Cinemax analogy I saw last night is highly relevant.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

If you only want HBO and subscribe to the premium channel package knowing that it also contains Cinemax, then you are also a Cinemax subscriber. It's really that simple.

Man was just about to post this, wasn't sure if it was thread worthy. But it's the perfect analogy, one I'll be borrowing for the next four years

 

[Mesoian]

Imagine I use "hawkish nature" in a less nuanced way though, and stated it as follows: Is Hillary's military intervention, which indirectly resulted in the slaughter of innocent people abroad (referring to her support of regime change in Libya, for example), worse than people being deported from a country?

My point being, people weigh different priorities on different things when casting a vote. Even though I still chose Hillary over Trump, I don't know if I can assume everyone places the same value on same issue, and it doesn't necessarily mean I cosign everything about Hillary has said or done. I imagine some Trump supporters feel the same about his sexism, xenophobia and racism. I don't feel like I can judge them without also judging myself and my support of Hillary in spite of her serious issues, too.

But that's my point. You're absolutely right, we do have to accept the nature and the consequences of backing a candidate's mandate, be that international war that results in the death of many innocent people, or the uprooting and destruction of civic factions and people domestically. You HAVE to judge yourself in making these decisions, even if you plan on protesting against the things about their positions that you don't agree with later. That's part of the decision of putting people into positions of power.

But to weigh EVERYTHING that Trump has said and done, the pillars of his campaign, and simply shrug because you think Hillary might continue the down the path of war that we've been on since the 70's....to ignore the waves upon waves of racially charged violence against citizens of this country because of her hawkish nature, or emails, or benghazi, to do all that....

That's pretty fucking racist and sexist and xenophobic.

And if they don't care, whatever. But you can't be alarmed or upset when people point them and site all of the really horrifying shit that Trump and Pence are setting up and say, "you did this to us. You'll get nothing, and you did this to us," as if it was some shocking revelation. The information was there, they just ignored it because they wanted to "Make america great again", even though it's pretty obvious from 18 months of campaigning that that slogan meant "Let's give rich white men more power and disenfranchise as many people who aren't that as possible in the process."

 

[Ryzaki009]

So....
"Fuck you, don't got mine?"

That's the most facedesk worthy part of this.

I could get the supporting Trump if it was actually going to help them.

But it's not. It's probably gonna make their lives worse.

So they're okay with bigotry to get what they want but they're too dense to realize that they're not getting what they want anyway leaving just the bigotry. Like it makes my brain hurt.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

It is nice to see at least one person here gets it. The middle class in the heart of the nation has been ignored too long and they reacted by electing someone who they thought could help them.

They were ignored because they elected and re-elected the same, shitty lawmakers over and over again, despite the evidence that their conditions were not improving slapping them in the face. They were ignored because those lawmakers decided they weren't going to do anything because a black guy was in the White House.

If the evidence that someone is a bullshitter is staring you in the face but you deny it or let it go, you don't have the right to get mad when the bullshitter inevitably ignores you.

They ate Trump's shit right up because he's not a politician, despite all the same evidence that he will ignore them.

 

[Mesoian]

That's the most facedesk worthy part of this.

I could get the supporting Trump if it was actually going to help them.

But it's not. It's probably gonna make their lives worse.

So they're okay with bigotry to get what they want but they're too dense to realize that they're not getting what they want anyway leaving just the bigotry. Like it makes my brain hurt.

Yup.

For most Trump supporters, it's "fuck you, I got mine....oh wait..."

The story about Asians For Trump giving him support because they thought he would eliminate affirmative action, allowing their kids to get into better schools and get better jobs when his policies would actually make it dramatically more difficult for them to get into most highly ranked private institutions is one of the most mind-boggling things I've seen in ages.

But...that's where we are.

 

[Jonm1010]

They were ignored because they elected and re-elected the same, shitty lawmakers over and over again, despite the evidence that their conditions were not improving slapping them in the face. They were ignored because those lawmakers decided they weren't going to do anything because a black guy was in the White House.

If the evidence that someone is a bullshitter is staring you in the face but you deny it or let it go, you don't have the right to get mad when the bullshitter inevitably ignores you.

They ate Trump's shit right up because he's not a politician, despite all the same evidence that he will ignore them.

I mean yeah, that is all true, but lets also keep in mind context. Rural life is a stark contrast to city life or even suburb life.

You go through a lot of these dying, struggling small towns and it becomes evident the stark cultural differences that exist. Low education, higher religious influences(typically of the more extreme variety), and politics is built almost exclusively around the right-wing echo chamber. It is pretty easy to imagine how in that sort of environment, a person is very much more prone to seeing conservative narratives as the way forward.

They offer them more vessels to consume their message. Vessels that claim to speak on their behalf and to their concerns. That offer solutions those messages claim will uniquely benefit them as if they are their focal point. When things don't go their way, they turn to the same drug to explain to them what happened and inevitably that prescription is more of the same but just more extreme! We need purity of conviction next time!! It's a feedback loop conservative influencers direct and cater too. And make no mistake, if Trump ends up faltering a lot, the loop will happen again and the solution will likely be to get an even more extreme candidate that they will be told will do it right this time.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

Yes it does. It's really simple.

If you value financial security over the basic human rights of others, especially those in your own country, then I will call you a shitty human being.

You can't just support the parts you like of the Trump package and be excused from supporting the rest. You supported the whole thing and that included a racist, sexist, and homophobic agenda. You just didn't care about those things that much.

(I don't know if you personally voted for Trump or not)

You can label them a bad human being all you want, but that doesn't mean they lack empathy for the otherside. They merely made a conscious decision to save themselves than save others. It is a totally understandable, although base, desire.

Aside: I voted for Hillary.

 

[tearsintherain]

The story about Asians For Trump giving him support because they thought he would eliminate affirmative action, allowing their kids to get into better schools and get better jobs when his policies would actually make it dramatically more difficult for them to get into most highly ranked private institutions is one of the most mind-boggling things I've seen in ages.

But...that's where we are.

Why would Trump's policies make it harder for Asians to get into private institutions? Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc would not be affected at all by anything Trump does and set their own agenda when it comes to admissions criteria. I don't recall reading anything about Asian's complaining about AA in the job market, which isn't really a thing is it?

The Asian parents described in a few articles running up to the election were more concerned about public state colleges like UC/CSU in California. The affirmative actions in those situations are on a state by state basis, with some states having no AA and others having it be fairly discretionary on the admissions staff part.

In either case Asians voted overwhelmingly for Clinton, hovering between 70-90% depending on the state, so not even sure what the point is...
http://aaldef.org/press-releases/pr...voters-clinton-favored-over-trump-by-wid.html

 

[Captin Quacker]

You can label them a bad human being all you want, but that doesn't mean they lack empathy for the otherside. They merely made a conscious decision to save themselves than save others. It is a totally understandable, although base, desire.

Aside: I voted for Hillary.

No it means they don't give a shit about minorities

 

[MHWilliams]

“Whites, it must frankly be said, are not putting in a similar mass effort to reeducate themselves out of their racial ignorance. It is an aspect of their sense of superiority that the white people of America believe they have so little to learn. The reality of substantial investment to assist Negroes into the twentieth century, adjusting to Negro neighbors and genuine school integration, is still a nightmare for all too many white Americans…These are the deepest causes for contemporary abrasions between the races. Loose and easy language about equality, resonant resolutions about brotherhood fall pleasantly on the ear, but for the Negro there is a credibility gap he cannot overlook. He remembers that with each modest advance the white population promptly raises the argument that the Negro has come far enough. Each step forward accents an ever-present tendency to backlash.”

Words from everyone's fave.

It's not enough to talk about unity and tolerance. You have to actually put it into action and be about it. To fix a problem you must first be able to point to the problem and say what it is. We frequently can't even get to that first step.

 

[Dalek]

 

[nitekrawlwer]

I'm still trying to figure out which part of the package wasn't deplorable. Was it the tariffs on Mexico and China? That sounds awful like the very racist sentiment of making brown people pay for having stole their jobs.

Maybe American's are simply so accustomed to racism that it falls away from their ears like water off a duck's back.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

You can label them a bad human being all you want, but that doesn't mean they lack empathy for the otherside.

You're right. Labeling them that way doesn't mean they lack
empathy for the other side.

Their open and proud lack of empathy for the other side means they lack empathy for the other side.

 

[Madrin]

You may not be a racist, sexist piece of shit, but by voting for a candidate for such ideals, you're saying you're okay with it even if you don't agree. A vote is all-or-nothing; you may cast your vote because of only a few issues, but that vote itself doesn't discriminate between those issues. It encompasses the good and the bad of the candidate,

Some people thought what Hillary would do was worse. Some people thought it was just a bunch of talk that wouldn't translate into any real harm. Some people didn't recognize it for the bigotry that it was.

Obviously a massive chunk of Trump supporters are racist and sexist, but a lot of them are just truly ignorant and out of touch.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You can label them a bad human being all you want, but that doesn't mean they lack empathy for the otherside. They merely made a conscious decision to save themselves than save others. It is a totally understandable, although base, desire.

Aside: I voted for Hillary.

Except it wasn't a "save myself or someone else" proposition. It was a "gamble on this guy who might improve my prospects, but also talks about ruining the lives of entire groups of other people" proposition. That is selfish, stupid, and completely lacking in empathy. Completely disregarding other people's lives so you might improve your own somewhat is just evil.

 

[jroc74]

I used to work in the federal govt a few years ago. As a contractor but still...

Workers that were there for years before I started told me on a few occasions that really we should want a Republican president because that meant a better chance at job security for us in that field.

I have always been and may always be a Democratic voter. After hearing that I thought about changing up my voting here n there.

In the end I was like naw....casting my vote for job security wasnt worth the entire package.

And in my case it might have been an immediate thing. Seeing how when Obama got elected we had policy changes for our job that went into effect immediately.

Most times when a new president came in office it effected us immediately. Some good, some bad. Obama being President effected us in some bad ways.

So excuse me for not giving a fuck if those that voted for Trump were thinking about themselves and overlooking the racist, bigotry, ect are having their feeling hurt being lumped in with the racist, bigots, etc.

Look at my tag. Take a wild guess why I was given that tag... I learned alot from that thread...