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[MazeHaze]

When you're making choices and playing as a character, it's quite different (to me) than reading a book or watching a movie about a character. Many games are fantasy driven, and I choose to play out that fantasy as a character that feels like an extension of myself

That'a fine, but what about a female player? Maybe she feels the same way? In that case, tlou 2 can be a game she enjoys, while you can simply sit that one out.

 

[Miniature Kaiju]

Half of the fun of experiencing a narrative - be it a book, a game, a play or a movie - is being exposed to situations and experiences outside our own. Being an alien, being a dog, being a white, middle-aged bald soldier, it jogs the mind, it stimulates the imagination, gives a wider understanding and appreciation for the world.

If somehow you (royal you, not someone in specific) have trouble empathising and relating to something outside of yourself, be it due to a difference in race, age, gender, color or sexual orientation, you must lead a really boring, drab and unimaginative life.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I am Bayonetta

There's a little Bayonetta in us all, friend

 

[Veelk]

That trailer clearly has shown her as mentally deranged.

I don't think that's a clip that a lot of people are going to look at and go "Oh, poor Ellie." I thought it was frightening, I thought she seemed like a monster. We're not talking about your average "mental snap," we're talking about a character that snapped so bad that it appears she turned into a monstrous murderer akin to Joel. I'm interested in diving into that story, but not remotely for the sake of reliability or empathy.

Mentally deranged is seriously pushing it.

She seemed traumatized and wrathful. It's not a psychotic break to be pissed off at people who did you harm. Civilization means we are not able to act on that rage, but Ellie clearly is because she lives in a world where civilization has fallen apart.

We might just be arguing semantics, but psychotic break implies mental instability of a crippling nature. That's not what we're dealing with here.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I choose to play out that fantasy as a character that feels like an extension of myself

So you think you are a bad enough dude?

 

[cordy]

I just play them and see what happens and depending on what the character does that's not similar to me, I can relate to it. For example, Ellie in TLOU. I'm a 29 year old black man in the South. She's a 14 year old girl who's having to deal with everything going on in that universe. I can't relate to most of it. What I can relate to however is meeting someone and getting close to them (Joel), new surroundings, fearing for your life (as she does through most of the game), overcoming obstacles and I can also relate to not wanting to be left alone. That's what attracts me to her character and causes me to relate to it. Now, if Ellie starts having sex with a guy in 2 nah, I won't relate to that. I would be able to relate if the guy randomly comes up to her and says "sorry, we're done" and she's hurt. It just depends on particular actions on what I can relate to or not and that goes for everyone no matter who it is, what they do and exactly what works out for the game in context. If I played my brother in a game the same would apply.

That doesn't mean I have to relate to someone to play the game though. I just connect myself from them on a personal level and do what I gotta do. I can't relate to Tommy Vercetti on most things but I can still kick ass.

 

[Nafai1123]

I don't have to relate to or have empathy for anything. If something doesn't sit right with me I just bypass it. No fuss, nothing. TV. books, videogames, whatever.

This is how hatred of people who are different manifest. How about judging the person on who they are, not what they are?

 

[psyfi]

Mentally deranged is seriously pushing it.

She seemed traumatized and wrathful. It's not a psychotic break to be pissed off at people who did you harm. Civilization means we are not able to act on that rage, but Ellie clearly is because she lives in a world where civilization has fallen apart.

We might just be arguing semantics, but psychotic break implies mental instability of a crippling nature. That's not what we're dealing with here.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one. I was going to respond to the same post, but couldn't really find the words, but you summed up my thoughts well.

 

[DevilDog]

That'a fine, but what about a female player? Maybe she feels the same way? In that case, tlou 2 can be a game she enjoys, while you can simply sit that one out.

This is a different topic, we're talking about relating to videogame characters. Not real humans.

I wasn't exactly inviting disagreement on that point. I mean, I want to be unequivocal on this point: If you have trouble relating to people based on gender, ethnicity, or sexuality, there is a problem. If you disagree on that point, you're basically...stating some deeply ingrained prejudice.

The point of the thread is to try to give a safe space for people who feel that way to change, not to discuss whether it's right to not relate to someone based on those things. That's why my points basically boil down to "You CAN relate to them, it takes effort, and it's a good thing to do". The point is that these feels may not be right, but you feeling them doesn't automatically make you a bad person.

However, if you disagree with the premise of the thread itself...well, you can voice that, I guess, but neogaf generally isn't the place for that kind of talk.

Ok, let me make myself 100% clear here:

I don't disagree with that point about people relating to people in general and I'm not going to fight it. I agree with it.

I'm disagreeing with using it as a starting point of saying why "people can't relate to cartain videogame characters". Videogames aren't reality, and the way you set up your thesis is inherently flawed, and the replies from people that actually agree with you is evidence to it.

"I don't understand how people are okay with playing an Italian plumber and not a girl".

"I always have trouble relating to a hedgehog (jokes)".

People are people in real life, and should be viewed as whole human beings because obviously they are, but videogame characters are not the same.
This also throws the "immersion" factor out the window. People often play videogames for escapism or to experience something. Sometimes, putting effort into relating to that person that is different than you takes you out and ruins your immersion.

Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes. This is more complex than you make it out to be.

 

[Platy]

I love female leads as I'm a female.

But, please, do not force it, either way.
Do not make this decision from a political view, it is bad for we females.

It should be fluid. People shouldn't notice if is an alien, male, female, trans.

We have more examples from forced males and females than fluid ones.
Gears have a forced male lead. Star wars have a fluid female lead.

Always awesome to talk with a ferengi xD

I love how people say that making you play with a woman is a political deicision ... while 30 years of 95% of white men is totaly not forced

 

[MazeHaze]

This is how hatred of people who are different manifest. How about judging the person on who they are, not what they are?

It's also an admission that the poster thinks media that isn't made for their specific race and gender aren't worth their time.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Three thoughts:

1. I agree with most of the OP's observations on empathy, relation, and the positive value of practicing these things.

2. By the same token, I agree it's off-base to single people out and sort of persecute them for their expressions of taste, even if that taste comes off as unusually conservative. These things are subjective to a large degree.

3. On the 3rd side of the coin, let's be honest. One of the reasons we're talking about this so much is that a lot of people are not stopping at "I don't like this character". They are using "I don't like this character" as a springboard to launch into Woke illuminati shit they've picked up from the internet..

Bonus thought: Game developers have the data. They know who is playing games. Sony is not greenlighting 50 million dollar titles staring characters - like women - that are likely to tank the sales (even if that was a concern of suits for a number of years).

I think what the last part means is that some people may have to get used to the idea that more variety means more major titles will not be to their taste.

 

[Dice//]

As a girl. Seriously to people complaining about this, suck it up, it's what I deal with like in MOST games.

 

[Rewind]

Honestly the gender and race don't matter to me, all that matters are the situations and experiences the main character goes through. Sympathy and Empathy are both important and are both viable ways of making the player care. All human beings can relate to the human condition wether that's love, hate, or something else entirely. We should all be happy that we are getting a unique lead that diversifies the way stories are told in games.

 

[MazeHaze]

Three thoughts:

1. I agree with most of the OP's observations on empathy, relation, and the positive value of practicing these things.

2. By the same token, I agree it's off-base to single people out and sort of persecute them for their expressions of taste, even if that taste comes off as unusually conservative. These things are subjective to a large degree.

3. On the 3rd side of the coin, let's be honest. One of the reasons we're talking about this so much is that a lot of people are not stopping at "I don't like this character". They are using "I don't like this character" as a springboard to launch into Woke illuminati shit they've picked up from the internet..

Bonus thought: Game developers have the data. They know who is playing games. Sony is not greenlighting 50 million dollar titles staring characters - like women - that are likely to tank the sales (even if that was a concern of suits for a number of years).

I think what the last part means is that some people may have to get used to the idea that more variety means more major titles will not be to their taste.

I think the real meat of this thread though, is why aren't those things "their taste". Surely the millions of minority and female gamers don't refuse to play games that don't cater to "their taste".

If that was the case, minorities and females would have about 2 AAA games to play this year, 1 if you don't count tomb raider as a 2016 release.

 

[ByWatterson]

That trailer clearly has shown her as mentally deranged.

I disagree. She's furious at something, and in the world she inhabits (and has always inhabited, importantly), anger of that sort understandably manifests in horrific violence.

Those that have been wronged and respond with violence are not inherently mentally deranged. Most terrorists, for instance, are not insane - with a sound mind they make the decision, based upon both emotion and logic (but not uncontrollable insanity) to kill in response to wrongs, either actual or perceived.

Don't we all have those feelings? To hurt those that hurt us? In a relatively luxurious life, like we can currently live in the West, it's easy to suppress or filter those feelings and listen to our better angels.

But in the world of The Last of Us? Far more difficult.

 

[Correctomundo]

As a girl. Seriously to people complaining about this, suck it up, it's what I deal with like in MOST games.

You're female. How are they supposed to relate to you having to deal with this stuff in most games?

 

[Veelk]

People are people in real life, and should be viewed as whole human beings because obviously they are, but videogame characters are not the same.
This also throws the "immersion" factor out the window. People often play videogames for escapism or to experience something new. Sometimes, putting effort into relating to that person that is different than you takes you out and ruins your immersion.

Sometimes it doesn't.

While that may be strictly speaking true, it's simply not how people operate. Books and TV shows affect people in a relational level. They just do. Empathy is why TV shows can make us cry, make us angry at a character suffering injustice, make us joyful when they are. They aren't real, but we pretend they are. They are the imaginary friends we all live with.

And I disagree with your immersion point entirely. Relating to a character has always only ever immersed me more into a story. The entire point of immersion is that you live in that world to the fullest extent possible, and understanding the character that's in it can only help.

To your points about others responses, I've made a response on them the first page. Citing Super Mario isn't really the same thing because that's not a narrative focused game. There is very little 'character' to Mario besides aesthetics. He's mainly there as an avatar. So the empathy and relation I talk about is largely meant for....well, not Narrative heavy games, but games with Narrative enough to warrant it. Something like Mario is pretty barebones.

 

[HeeHo]

As a girl. Seriously to people complaining about this, suck it up, it's what I deal with like in MOST games.

This was my mental reaction to this too. You just gotta suck it up. I'm sure most female players don't relate to most main characters, and yet, they somehow still enjoy themselves. It ain't even close to a deal breaker.

 

[nkarafo]

As a girl. Seriously to people complaining about this, suck it up, it's what I deal with like in MOST games.

So you are saying that you can't relate to male characters as well but you suck it up and deal with it because you don't have as many choices?

I'm not judging you, i would probably feel the same.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

That'a fine, but what about a female player? Maybe she feels the same way? In that case, tlou 2 can be a game she enjoys, while you can simply sit that one out.

Well yeah in theory that would be okay. But since most players of this particular game are probably male, I understand the dissapointment, although it personally doesn't bother me.

I understand that with narrative driven games it's different and not as much of a fantasy "put yourself in their shoes" kind of thing, so if I loved TLOU it wouldn't matter as much to me regardless of what gender I usually prefer in my games

So you think you are a bad enough dude?

Eh, I don't know. Think ego vs superego.

 

[MazeHaze]

Let's break it down here.

Every AAA game this year, the only ones where you play as a black man are Mafia and Watchdogs (some of bf1) The only one where you play a female is Tomb Raider, which is a re-release.

The other 30 games, are white men protags. So when you complain that one upcoming game isn't relatable to you, consider the fact that EVERY other game you play isn't relatable to people who have a different race or gender than you.

Edit: also, in mafia the protag is bi-racial, americans are trained to view any multi-racial as a minority, but in reality his skin pigment is a mixture of both. So I guess calling him a black man is in line with how americans view race, but outside of that bubble, you could call him a white man. I'd rather call him a human.

 

[Icelandic_Jazz]

Lots of people here are still saying they can't relate to plumbers, dinosaurs, hedgehogs, princes, etc (though some are joking). Dig deeper into the characters though and you can still relate. Heroism, kindness, weakness, strength, angst are all relatable characteristics. Even a character with many negative attributes or is completely at odds with your personality, there will always be a little bit of something that can be found relatable.

Male, female, alien, dinosaur, dot, line.. you can feel empathy towards any of them.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I know what you guys are trying to go for, but different games require different relationships with the player. Something like Mario isn't a narrative game, so it doesn't necessarily matter who your playing as, because you're playing for the gameplay. To what I am describing is relating to the character in the story sense. Which you can do with all these examples, but I don't think that's what you guys had in mind.

Doesn't really matter, it's still a good way to highlight how fundamentally stupid the idea of "must relate to player protagonist" is.

Even if you focus exclusively on story-driven games, you'd still get protagonists like a bat-cloaked superhero billionaire, a Greek god, a vampire lord, a blue former-vampire-turned-wraith, a half-Esper sorceress, a genetically engineered super-soldier-spy (and/or his clone), a cybernetically augmented genetically enhanced super-soldier-spy, a mako-enhanced super-soldier with crazy hair, a ridiculously well-endowed female Indiana Jones, a wittier male Indiana Jones, ...the list goes on. In many story-driven games, like JRPGs, the most weird, unrelatable and/or unusual characters are often among the most popular, too; like Emeralda in Xenogears (she's a nanomachine colony and initially a child), Sephiroth and Aerith in FF7, Olivier in Trails in the Sky, Magus and Frog in Chrono Trigger, etc.

So yeah, if you think using Mario or Yoshi are bad examples because they aren't from story-driven games, then replace them with super-soldiers or demigods or superheroes or whatnot. The point stands.

This is also why playable women are almost always asexual or lesbians. Straight men just can't stand to play as a woman who is attracted to men, and seem threatened by the idea that a game would ask them to view a fellow man as an object of affection.

Sadly true.

You just called me out. I was all ready to agree with most, if not all, of the posts here by saying that I can't understand how anybody would get upset about the sex of the game character they played. However your point made me realize that while I have absolutely no problem playing a woman during asexual gameplay, I don't want to roleplay a woman doing feminine actions like romancing a man. That would most likely be a, pardon the pun, gamebreaker for me if a game forced it.

So I have to admit that at some level I have to be able to view myself as the character I play. Jumping, swinging a sword, shooting a gun and so on are all actions I can inherit any character and perform as that character. Flirting with or kissing a man are simply actions I would never perform. As a result I can't relate to any character who would do those actions so I'd rather not play them.

This makes me irrationally annoyed. What is wrong with you people. SMH

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

You just called me out. I was all ready to agree with most, if not all, of the posts here by saying that I can't understand how anybody would get upset about the sex of the game character they played. However your point made me realize that while I have absolutely no problem playing a woman during asexual gameplay, I don't want to roleplay a woman doing feminine actions like romancing a man. That would most likely be a, pardon the pun, gamebreaker for me if a game forced it.

So I have to admit that at some level I have to be able to view myself as the character I play. Jumping, swinging a sword, shooting a gun and so on are all actions I can inherit any character and perform as that character. Flirting with or kissing a man are simply actions I would never perform. As a result I can't relate to any character who would do those actions so I'd rather not play them.

I don't hold your stance against you, but I do think that writers should take viewpoints like yours as a challenge. My reaction to this as a writer myself is not "well, guess I'd better give up on straight female leads," but instead "I've got to find a way of making this stuff palatable for guys who are turned off by it." There just aren't enough examples of it in games to say it would be icky for you 100% of the time, in my opinion.

This is why I'm really hopeful that, if Naughty Dog is interested in having a romance for Ellie in this game, it's with a guy. If anyone can break this ground, it's them. Plus, they're still repping one of the few bisexual leads in a AAA game ever. Win-win.

 

[RichiRamjag]

I always struggle when playing a Sonic game, because I can't relate to being a hedgehog.

Damn. That's me in a nutshell. We're like long lost twins, bud.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

I appreciate diversity in my gaming, whether it presents itself as female protagonists, minority protagonists, varied secondary characters, different cultural elements or what have you. It makes things more relatable in a way.

I'm a 27 year old white male, but I related to the characters of Life is Strange - one, possibly two lesbian teenagers from the Pacific Northeast. I've connected with movies about the struggle of inner city black kids, gay men and woman, really it runs the gambit. Good writing and well realized characters gives you a glimpse into what it is like to be somebody else and can evoke strong emotional responses.

Not to mention often good writing and well developed characters aren't defined at all by what makes them different. Lee Everett from The Walking Dead is a good character and it has exactly 0 to do with him being a black guy.

 

[sirap]

Eh, I don't have a problem playing a female character but I'm not going to hate on other peoples tastes either. At the end of the day it's their loss for missing out on a potentially amazing game.

From a narrative standpoint I'm much more interested in Joel, but I'm not sure if that preference is clouded by my own emotional investment in the character during the first game. I lost a child so Joel's character resonates more with me.

 

[Aeana]

I just don't understand why this is such a big deal (

Spoiler

yes, I do, but I'll keep that to myself

)

I'm a woman. I played The Last of Us, and I loved it. I had absolutely no trouble empathizing with Joel, and I have never been a father who lost his child and became grizzled and bitter. Not once. It's okay, dudes. If I can enjoy TLoU, you can enjoy TLoU 2.

 

[Crimson_Echidna]

As much as Nathan can be mocked as a mass murderer or whatever, as a 20 year old male I do find myself relating to Drake a lot more in Uncharted 4 than Laura Croft in Tomb Raider.

That's not a complaint about female leads or Tomb Raider or whatever and I still enjoy playing both, that's just how I feel playing both games.

Obviously it helps that Drake is a modern day kind of normal guy trying to be an Indiana Jones. I don't find myself relating to John Marston in RDR.

What you're describing though is a Power Fantasy.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Mentally deranged is seriously pushing it.

She seemed traumatized and wrathful. It's not a psychotic break to be pissed off at people who did you harm. Civilization means we are not able to act on that rage, but Ellie clearly is because she lives in a world where civilization has fallen apart.

We might just be arguing semantics, but psychotic break implies mental instability of a crippling nature. That's not what we're dealing with here.

Mentally deranged isn't pushing anything. Deranged, crazed, demented, unbalanced, unhinged. It all applies to what we saw of her.

We're talking about a girl who, from the framing of that trailer, killed a truckload of people, then started playing guitar, singing a song about her dead enemies while blood runs down her face. That is not mentally stable behavior, even among murderous people. That's monstrous. That's deranged. That's not a character people are going to be relating to, that's a character that's going to make people recoil. And frankly, I love how dark that is.

Don't we all have those feelings? To hurt those that hurt us? In a relatively luxurious life, like we can currently live in the West, it's easy to suppress or filter those feelings and listen to our better angels.

There are clearly degrees in how you hurt people.

If I am attacked and shoot and kill that attacker, that's something within the boundaries of a normal human reaction. If I am attacked, and I shoot, kill, and skin alive that attacker, that's not within the boundaries of normal human reactions. If I am attacked, and I shoot, stab, and kill those attackers and then sing a murderous ballad over their still warm bodies with blood streaming down from my own face, that is not within the boundaries of normal human reactions.

I'm derailing, so I'll stop here, but I don't see how anyone could look at Ellie within that trailer and think that's normal behavior even within the context of how messed up TLOU's world is.

 

[Platy]

Romancing a man is not a feminine thing ... I know lots of macho men types of dudes who does in the most macho ways =P

 

[MazeHaze]

I just don't understand why this is such a big deal (

Spoiler

yes, I do, but I'll keep that to myself

)

I'm a woman. I played The Last of Us, and I loved it. I had absolutely no trouble empathizing with Joel, and I have never been a father who lost his child and became grizzled and bitter. Not once. It's okay, dudes. If I can enjoy TLoU, you can enjoy TLoU 2.

No matter what the argument, the subtext is that games should be made for straight white males, and anything else is unplayable.

Disclaimer: I think that is super fucked up.

 

[RPGam3r]

Mentally deranged isn't pushing anything. Deranged, crazed, demented, unbalanced, unhinged. It all applies to what we saw of her.



We're talking about a girl who, from the framing of that trailer, killed a truckload of people, then started playing guitar, singing a song about her dead enemies while blood runs down her face. That is not mentally stable behavior, even among murderous people. That's monstrous. That's deranged. That's not a character people are going to be relating to, that's a character that's going to make people recoil.

Agreed she is beyond vengeance, she is broken. Can't wait to see this story play out!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Fair enough, misread it.
That trailer clearly has shown her as mentally deranged.

I don't think that's a clip that a lot of people are going to look at and go "Oh, poor Ellie." I thought it was frightening, I thought she seemed like a monster. We're not talking about your average "mental snap" that people can understand or "relate" to their lives. We're talking about a character that snapped so bad that it appears she turned into a monstrous murderer akin to (if not worse than) Joel. I'm interested in diving into that story, but not remotely for the sake of reliability or empathy.

Mentally deranged isn't pushing anything. Deranged, crazed, demented, unbalanced, unhinged. It all applies to what we saw of her.

We're talking about a girl who, from the framing of that trailer, killed a truckload of people, then started playing guitar, singing a song about her dead enemies while blood runs down her face. That is not mentally stable behavior, even among murderous people. That's monstrous. That's deranged. That's not a character people are going to be relating to, that's a character that's going to make people recoil.

You're jumping to conclusions. We don't know why she killed these people. Or how long ago she killed them. We don't know why she's so angry. We don't know why she decided to pick up the guitar at that moment. To declare her to be mentally deranged like it's fact seems pretty damn presumptuous. Maybe we should wait and see what the deeper context is?

Hell, we don't even know if that's going to be an actual scene in the game, and not just a cool reveal trailer set piece with a cool song.

 

[SolidusDave]

I can understand wanting to play as the same gender and race in games in which you are the character (many RPGs like Fallout etc.). Also in MMOs you might feel like you should be represented ingame as in real life.

But this is not a game about you, the perspective is on another character. Sure you control them during gameplay and may even get to make some story decisions, but it's still more like following a movie/book etc. It's very different and the character could be a talking, transgender aubergine and you could still play the game.

Both ways have aspects that are intriguing (what would I do in such a setting vs. how would a character behave that has a very different character than me). Also, I bet most are fine playing as Lara Croft as I have never heard the complain "I can't relate to an attractive young woman" in that game.


So it's really weird if you can only enjoy stories that feature a main character who is the same race, age and gender as you. Like, what movies do you even watch then anymore at that point?

TBF, the comments in the OP seem to focus more on the age than anything else. You can still be less interested about the themes that often surround certain characters (e.g. teenager problems) though that often is more dependent on the setting I would think.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Mentally deranged isn't pushing anything. Deranged, crazed, demented, unbalanced, unhinged. It all applies to what we saw of her.



We're talking about a girl who, from the framing of that trailer, killed a truckload of people, then started playing guitar, singing a song about her dead enemies while blood runs down her face. That is not mentally stable behavior, even among murderous people. That's monstrous. That's deranged. That's not a character people are going to be relating to, that's a character that's going to make people recoil.

If you take the trailer and your assumption on how things played out, I can see your point.

However, I don't think we are supposed to believe she murdered a house of dudes and then sat down to sing a song while still dripping blood. I'm pretty just it's just a teaser trailer with a cool song that is supposed to establish a certain mood.

But if in the game she does murder a dozen guys and then starts singing to herself, I guess you'll be right.

 

[RPGam3r]

No matter what the argument, the subtext is that games should be made for straight white males, and anything else is unplayable.

Disclaimer: I think that is super fucked up.

We should be careful with putting words in peoples mouths. A person saying they will have problems relating is not necessarily saying the game shouldn't exist.

 

[DarkKyo]

I can't believe people have an issue with a female main character. Good god. 40 year-old manchild in that quote.

 

[MazeHaze]

Romancing a man is not a feminine thing ... I know lots of macho men types of dudes who does in the most macho ways =P

But that's disgusting! Why should I have to like that!? It's like porn, and the transformers movies, gross by all accounts!



Extremely /s if you couldn't tell.

 

[MazeHaze]

We should be careful with putting words in peoples mouths. A person saying they will have problems relating is not necessarily saying the game shouldn't exist.

But saying youd refuse to play it dismisses the plight of every minority and woman forced to play as a white male in 99 percent of AAA titles.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

We should be careful with putting words in peoples mouths. A person saying they will have problems relating is not necessarily saying the game shouldn't exist.

If a person says they can't relate to a character that doesn't symbolize them and therefore has trouble liking that character, it's worth calling them out for it.

If a person says they dislike the playable character of a game not representing them, especially if they want a white male, it's fair to call them out.

I'm speaking in generalities right now though.

 

[Fj0823]

I have 0 problems relating with a female.

It's easier for me to immerse in a "I'm a female, I like boys, I'm sensitive" fantasy than a "I'm a macho and I burn with generic rage" one

 

[DevilDog]

While that may be strictly speaking true, it's simply not how people operate. Books and TV shows affect people in a relational level. They just do. Empathy is why TV shows can make us cry, make us angry at a character suffering injustice, make us joyful when they are. They aren't real, but we pretend they are. They are the imaginary friends we all live with.

And I disagree with your immersion point entirely. Relating to a character has always only ever immersed me more into a story. The entire point of immersion is that you live in that world to the fullest extent possible, and understanding the character that's in it can only help.

To your points about others responses, I've made a response on them the first page. Citing Super Mario isn't really the same thing because that's not a narrative focused game. There is very little 'character' to Mario besides aesthetics. He's mainly there as an avatar. So the empathy and relation I talk about is largely meant for....well, not Narrative heavy games, but games with Narrative enough to warrant it. Something like Mario is pretty barebones.

You know what books and TV shows don't have that videogames do? Interactivity. This has a different effect on how you experience the video game medium. Failing to take this into account is worrying.

About the immersion, it depends. Sometimes, I want to experience what it is like to be a teenage girl. And I loved life is strange and Max and Chloe.
But sometimes I want a character to be an extension of me. Of who I want to be in that universe if you will. In Dragon Age origins I went for a female warrior. Definentely took me out of the experience a lot more. Almost all the way through I knew my experience would be better if I had made a male.

These games cite different reactions. Why?

 

[RPGam3r]

But saying youd refuse to play it dismisses the plight of every minority and woman forced to play as a white male in 99 percent of AAA titles.

Agreed, but they're still not saying it shouldn't exist (unless they're being shitty and saying it shouldn't).

 

[joecanada]

I really love playing as Yoshi, because every day I shit eggs out of my rear and throw them at my enemies. Such a relatable character.

Great OP. People who say things like this are ridiculous, and are usually closed-minded straight white males who are uncomfortable with the idea of a character not designed as a power fantasy specifically for them.

Post wins best visual of the thread lol.

I have recently started making most of my characters female others who haven't done this should give it a try it's fun

 

[Ascenion]

Some of you guys need to learn how to relate to the situation itself and not the character. The character imo, is the least important aspect because if I'm honest Ellie is an equivalent piece of shit to Joel. So fuck her just as much as fuck him for being a piece of shit. They are terrible terrible people. At the same time I, like most of us, have been in in love before. I can relate to how Ellie felt about Riley from that alone no need to put myself in the shoes of a woman so to speak. People are people and if you're making playing a game about sex/gender you're approaching it the wrong way. The human experience is the same for all of us. That's how you relate and empathize. Every situation Joel and Ellie go through development wise if you dig deep you've likely had some type of equivalent experience. I bet if you imagined Sarah was your kid, not that you yourself were Joel, you'd understand him way more. I think a lot of people are going about this the wrong way.

 

[EventHorizon]

See, I think that writers should take viewpoints like yours as a challenge. My reaction to this as a writer myself is not "well, guess I'd better give up on straight female leads," but instead "I've got to find a way of making this stuff palatable for guys who are turned off by it."

I wish you luck with that because you are going to need it. I mean that sincerely. I am not arguing against straight female leads in games if there is an audience for it. If there is then I say go for it. What I am saying is that I have no interest in playing such a game. I have plenty of other gaming choices so I don't have to force myself to play something I don't want to.

I also have a fundamental problem with the idea that my view on this is somehow wrong. As I pointed out in an earlier comment, would you have the same conviction to get me to like Transformer movies? I can't stand them but obviously many people do. I simply can't empathize with them on this point and that is just fine. Art is not supposed to be something made to the lowest common denominator that everyone enjoys.

There is a difference between saying "I don't like it" and saying "Nobody should like it". The first is perfectly fine while the second makes you an entitled jerk.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

You're jumping to conclusions. We don't know why she killed these people. We don't know why she's so angry. To declare her to be mentally deranged like it's fact seems pretty damn presumptuous. Maybe we should wait and see what the deeper context is?

She's sitting there with fresh blood streaming down her face, with clearly freshly dead bodies in the room, while singing about killing her enemies, in a game that Neil said has a theme of "hate."

And you want me to believe she didn't kill them and isn't deranged?

Even if she didn't kill them, singing while wounded, about killing enemies in a room with dead bodies is not normal behavior by any stretch of the imagination.

If you take the trailer and your assumption on how things played out, I can see your point.

However, I don't think we are supposed to believe she murdered a house of dudes and then sat down to sing a song while still dripping blood. I'm pretty just it's just a teaser trailer with a cool song that is supposed to establish a certain mood.

But if in the game she does murder a dozen guys and then starts singing to herself, I guess you'll be right.

Even if we say that it's just a cool teaser, it's pretty evident that the mood being established is that she is completely broken and gone off the edge. I frankly don't see how this is debatable given the visual framing of the trailer, the dialogue spoken, and what Neil said in the panel later.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

There's a little Bayonetta in us all, friend

Like, as in she's pegging all of us?

I'm okay with this.